Do toxic parents love their kids? (hopefully my last post)

Hi guys!

I have posted a couple different threads and your feedback has been so immensely helpful that I needed to ask one more (hopefully final) question. Sorry to keep bugging you all!

After a horrible experience with my mother, which echoed prior experiences I have had with her, I realized she is in fact toxic to me. Fortunately last night I saw my therapist. He saw how physically upset I was, I guess picked up on some subtle remarks, and questioned whether this most recent blowout brought suicidal thoughts back. I was honest and told him yes. But promised I would either keep it together until out next session tomorrow or call him. Well after therapy I had an awful phone call with both parents. My dad's genuine respectful concern was juxtaposed with my mom yelling in the background about how disrespectful I was. I had to end the call because I became hysterical. I didn't call my doctor because I feel like that would have led to me

going back to the hospital, but I did to call an anonymous suicide hotline twice.

my mom will pull this and sprinkle her verbal assault with "I'm your mother so I'll always love you but..."

I think after last night there is absolutely no doubt she is toxic. Even my dad said "you know how mom is when she's worried she gets angry and lashes out" (ummm I'm sorry but isnt part of adulthood learning to get a handle on your emotions and communicate not throw tantrums?). My friends and therapist concur. She's a toxic mother.

But she will say "I love you" (only in the midst of berating me though).

Can toxic parents love their children and just be unaware of the harm they are doing?

As someone who is dad to an adult girl, I might be able to answer. I'm not excusing either of your parents' behaviour for one minute. I haven't read all of your other threads, as I've had a busy period where I hadn't been here for over a month.

Firstly, no child comes with a book of instructions. Even if they did, the book would be different for each child, even siblings. We can only relate to our own parents' ways with us. Now I had a lot of trouble with my mum when growing up. I know she made a lot of mistakes and I have tried hard not to repeat them with my daughter. When I was about 8, a light switched on in my head that made me realise that parents are human, too, and have feelings like us kids. I now realise that, for most kids, that light switches on somewhat earlier.

Now we're all "toxic" to some extent. We have our own issues, phobias, etc and that is normal. We try hard to be aware of them and not project them on our kids but we don't always succeed. For example, I have a tendency to be cynical and try not to let that affect how I speak to my daughter but she's somewhat cynical, too, maybe genetically!

Many "adults" do not learn how to control their emotions or behaviour. Quite often, they have bullying tendencies and feel they are entitled to behave in certain ways because they hold some sort of "power". They will simply shout down anyone who criticises them for it.

As I see it, as we mature, our relationship with our parents becomes a more equal one based on friendship. I'm proud to say my daughter considers my wife and I great friends as well as parents. Not all parents make that transition, though.

Thanks this helps! Regarding the "equal" thing this is a response I got yesterday when I asked my mom not to scold me like a child because it was inappropriate:

"If you think because you are [an adult] your parents are equal, no longer deserving the respect of parents then you have sunk farther than I thought. Until my mother died, I would not have said that to her."

I never said anything about not respecting her. Only said I wouldn't tolerate being treated like a child. (I'm completely financially independent never asked them for a dime after I got a job)

I am not sure what "sunk further than i thought" refers too.

My guess is that she was treated exactly the same way by her parents and she was just repeating a cycle that she lived. Most people don't know how to get out of that cycle. It is great that you are choosing to get out of that cycle. Can they love their children? Yes ,I think they can. They just don't know how to express that love correctly because they themselves were never shown how . This doesn't mean that you shouldn't have boundaries because absolutely you should.

I'm not familiar with your previous threads, but my take away thought is so what if your mom treats you like a child? You gained financial independence from them, you are your own person, an adult, your parents must have done something right. It doesn't make sense to me that this is causing so much grief for you, that this relationship is so toxic to you as you say. Perhaps on some level you feel you have something to prove to them, you don't. You are actually acting like a child, and it is not necessary. You don't need the respect and validation from your parents anymore, as an adult you don't need it. It might be nice to have it, but as an adult it is not required. As an adult you can allow your parents to hold on to their notions, as these aren't a threat to you anymore. It might be a perceived threat but really it isn't.

She is verbally abusive and manipulative (as she was during my childhood)

When my dad is verbally abusive I just hang up the phone. I tell him ,"you call me when you're prepared to be a human being." Invariably a few months down the road I end up calling him because he can't afford to call me. But he knows now every single time if he's verbally abusive I will hang up the phone and he won't hear from me again for about four months.

It is dangerous when people mix the word love in with controlling and abusive behaviour. I don't know if your mum loves you or not, but saying "I love you but....*insert abusive/controlling comment*" is a nasty form of manipulation that has nothing to do with love. It is dangerous because it teaches the person to associate love with abuse, and conditions them to accept it.

Love is kind, and it feels good. Love cannot live in the same place as control and abuse. If she really wants to mend things, she would do what it takes to stop those toxic comments. I get that she may have a mental disorder, but in that case, you might have to accept that her sickness comes above everything else. Much the same way an alcoholic may 'love' his family, but he loves the drink more, even if it destroys the very family he claims to love.

Wow can't thank you all enough. So much good input here!

I was so confused because I kept getting in this cycle where I would think "she was out of line and hurtful but she's a loving mom so she would only get out of line if I triggered it and it was my fault. If I were a good daughter she would not hurt me because she loves me."

I think it's helpful to think that "loving" and "toxic" are not mutually exclusive. She's not alcoholic but using alcoholism as an analogy is on point. No one would say "he must not love his family other wise he wouldn't be alcoholic" no - he loves his family and he's alcoholic so there are lots of issues with his relationships.

I was so confused because I kept getting in this cycle where I would think "she was out of line and hurtful but she's a loving mom so she would only get out of line if I triggered it and it was my fault. If I were a good daughter she would not hurt me because she loves me."

That's the way an abuser wants you to feel. Try flipping it around and saying to yourself, "If she were a good and loving mother she would not try and hurt me like this. It is not my fault or responsibility that she behaves this way."

Her behaviour is abusive and unloving, and you are not responsible for it. However, she will probably never admit that, even to herself, so it is unlikely you will ever get any acknowledgement or apology from her.

The best thing you can do to move forward is to find a way of grieving for the mother you never had, and re-parenting yourself. A good therapist will be invaluable for this, and also posting on the boards here to get support. This will take a lot of time and effort, but you can turn those unhealthy patterns around, so you don't bring them into your other relationships. Her behaviour is not, and never was, your fault.

Thank you chia girl!

Oh she has never apologized for anything. Ever.

I have been in therapy for a few years. It's taken that long just to get to this point.

After a particularly traumatic week - where I tried to respectfully set boundaries with her and she responded extremely maliciously - I am going to discuss in therapy today actually that I am considering going "no contact" for a while. Her violent mood swings trigger my own depression/self harming behaviors. But I'm grappling with the idea that this request is selfish and ungrateful.

My mom keeps claiming she loves me though. I actually have a 2 fold request I would like to make:

1. A break in contact

2. Upon resumption, first meeting must have a counselor present

Ironically I had the opportunity to basically force this upon my mom after my psychiatrist hospitalized me. The staff said they could restrict my mother from contacting or visiting and arrange a family meeting.

I stupidly thought my breakdown was all me, nothing to do with the way I raised/currently treated by her.

I just went and read some of your other posts, and it sounds like both of your parents have been extremely controlling over your life; way beyond what would be considered the norm.

What you are experiencing now is your struggle to be free of their restrictions and be your own person. This is something that most people experience most strongly in their teenage years, but which you were not allowed to do, for fear of repercussions. In a sense, you are still like a teenager, trying to get free.

Most good parents understand their children's increasing needs for freedom as they grow, and are able to gradually give them that freedom. Yours have chosen to try and keep you in a cage. The problem with that is you are not an object that can be kept under lock and key, you are a person who has her own feelings, her own opinions, and needs to be free to live her own life. At 30 that includes living where you choose, dating whom you choose, and setting boundaries with people who do not support you.

Now you are financially independent they have lost their main form of controlling you. Your mother, sensing this loss of control, is ramping up her abusive behaviour, and attempting to disguise this abuse as love. In fact, she is using the word 'love' as another form of control, to manipulate you through guilt.

What she is doing is not love, it's the very opposite. Keep going ahead with your therapy, keep taking steps to assert your independence, and remember: you are not responsible for her behaviour. In time you will be able to put healthy boundaries in place.

It is hard; I get it, I really do. It is very difficult to stand up to someone who has subjugated you for so long. But it is possible. You'll need lots of support though.

Thanks Chia Girl,

I actually had a session with my therapist today who supports the idea of "withdrawing from the relationship" with my mom. He thinks that it is in the best interest of my safety and well being.

Now I actually have to find a way to tell my family I won't be over for Easter.

FadingHope,

I do believe that the vast majority of parents, toxic or not, love their children. The thing with toxic people is that they are limited in their love, in terms of how they show and also their priorities. They may not consider your wellbeing at all, only theirs. They have some major issues and it really limits their ability to have a healthy relationship with you.

However, this isn't your problem, and it's not fair to you to try and keep having a relationship with someone who hurts you again and again, even if they do love you. The onus is on them to seek help and try to change. If they don't want to do that or don't want to admit that there's a problem, well, that's on them, not you. You can't keep hurting yourself or else you may end up like them: messed up and with a lot of emotional baggage and scars.

I am wishing you the best.

Thank you chia girl!

 

I stupidly thought my breakdown was all me, nothing to do with the way I raised/currently treated by her.

In my opinion, the cause of your breakdown was not you. Unfortunately, it is only you who can be responsible for your recovery. This sounds tough but I'm telling you from sheer hard experience. In my case, I was badly treated by my (then) wife. Even now, I still have lots of self-doubts that originated in this period. There was no way that she could have participated in my recovery, even if she had felt responsible and wanted to.