Girls rewarded for ignorance?

[metro_girl]

Yes, Thanksgiving, that day when I get to see relatives I haven't seen for a while. Does you family reward girls for NOT seeming to be too bright in a booksmart way? For example, I was with my family yesterday and a cousin's husband gave us a word game such as 1001 A N (1001 Arabian Nights is the answer) or 24 H in a D (24 hours in a day) 52 C in a D and a J (52 Cards in a Deck and a Joker) 13 S in the AF (13 stripes in the American Flag) 32 DF and WF (32 Degrees Fahrenheit and Water Freezes).

 

I'm not bragging, but the entire list was just too easy. I have a Ph.D. and it would be really frightening if I didn't get these. My BA is in English and I taught special ed and English at the college level for several years before getting my Ph.D. I now work as a research scientist. If my family doesn't think I'm smart enough to answer these questions, what does that say?

 

I was figuring out the answers very quickly but after the first couple times, I stopped to give the other women a chance to respond. I've been reprimanded before for "showing off" my intelligence (my booksmart intelligence). On the other hand, my cousins who are all married and didn't go to college can spend as much time as they want showing off and bragging about their kids and their husbands and their clothes, cars, and jewelry. The thing is, if that stuff meant anything to me, I would have done what they did and spent more time finding a husband than putting myself through school to support myself.

 

One of the questions was 4 Q in a G. I guessed 4 quarts in a gallon. The women and a couple of the guys actually made me question whether this was the correct answer because two of the women thought there were 2 quarts in a gallon.

 

The cousin's husband who gave us the word puzzle is a D.O. not even a real M.D. and he had to know the answer was 4 quarts in a gallon, but his wife didn't and no one wanted her to look stupid!!! Why is it okay for them to try to make me feel like a loser because I'm still single (and they are both on their second marriages), but it's not okay for them to realize that maybe, yes, earning a Ph.D. may have raised my IQ by a few points?

 

And, if that's not bad enough, they still think I'm a poor college student struggling to get by. They can't possibly understand how a woman could make it on her own. Not only do I make it on my own, I live rather well even without a man's income.

[iamteddybearfeelmecuddle]

Sounds like the other girls were being given a handicap, and no one cared that you knew the answers. Kind of lame. Single women do tend to get held to a different standard than married ones sometimes.

 

I've seen a few epis of Sex in the City that reminds me of your story. I remember one where Carrie the lead character was invited to some sort of baby shower or something, and someone stole her expensive shoes. The Hostess wouldn't reimburse her for the shoes and told Carrie that her shoes weren't as important as the hostess expenses because they were for her. Carrie felt that the chilren and expenses involved with that were also a choice that involved the hostess and why should she think her choices were more selfless. Then Carrie invited the hostess to give her gifts for a party where she was marrying herself. The gift she requested was a pair of shoes exactly like the ones that were stolen. It's hard to explain and you'd have to see the episode, but I remember relating to it a bit.

[annie24]

oh, I remember that episode! "A woman's right to shoes." I also remember the last line of that episode. "It's hard to walk in the life of a single woman. That's why, sometimes you need a really special pair of shoes."

 

yeah, in that episode, the mom used to be just like carrie, clubbing, partying, buying extravagent shoes and clothes, but now "grew up" and got a family, etc....

 

no one celebrates the woman who chooses to stay single or not marry the wrong guy. you don't get any more BIG gifts or celebrations after graduation, unless you get married or have kids.

 

anyways, back on topic.

 

Is it possible that you maybe are coming off a bit too arrogant?

 

The cousin's husband who gave us the word puzzle is a D.O. not even a real M.D.

 

statements such as these seem like you are looking down on others, and maybe that attitude is showing through. it's one thing to be intelligent and accomplished, but another thing to look down on people and make them feel bad.

[iamteddybearfeelmecuddle]

Yeah, I really liked that episode I thought it was a very honest and accurate portrayal of some of the notions in society about priorities and double standards among other things.

[metro_girl]

To answer the question, "Is it possible that you maybe are coming off a bit too arrogant?" No, I'm very humble about my accomplishments. The comment about the D.O. instead of the M.D. is similar to comments about Ph.D.s not being "real" doctors, a comment that is made frequently about my degree in my family. I guess you'd have to be there to understand. Once again, this proves my point in a way, doesn't it? An educated and smart woman is often considered arrogant about her intelligence and looking down on others, but a D.O. who hands out word puzzles is called what? I'd say, not a real M.D.

[annie24]

Actually, I am a PhD candidate myself. I know that many people can get weirded out by it, especially if it seems like you are trying to show off your knowledge.

 

Since you understand the comments about "not being a real doctor", then why make the same comment to the D.O.?

[metro_girl]

I would expect that knowing there a 4 quarts in a gallon is not a huge test of knowledge, and the D.O. was being slightly arrogant to assume the "women" at the table wouldn't know the answers. A D.O. isn't a real M.D. That isn't like saying a D.O. isn't a real doctor. I also think admissions standards to most osteopathic medical schools are lower than traditional medical schools. This particular D.O. has a father who was a D.O., and he's a little more than spoiled. If that's not bad enough, he drives a Jaguar. The family has to make over it and make a big deal about it. In this case, he really didn't put much effort into the accomplishment of being a doctor, so my comment doesn't indicate that I'm arrogant or looking down on anyone. My family rewards lack of effort and especially ignorance from girls.

[annie24]

well, then your family kind of sucks in that regard. I was talking with a coworker, a man with a PhD. (older man). we were talking over dinner, and he was telling me about his family. A lot of brothers and sisters. The boys went to grad school, while the sisters didn't, but married doctors and lawyers. He said, "my sisters were smart, they married rich. I wasn't so smart." It was a disgusting comment to me, but I think it came more out of his insecurities than anything else. I think he is upset that he doesn't make so much money, but a PhD is never about the money.

 

Well, I mean, just ignore them. A D.O. isn't a "real doctor" but neither are we. When someone is sick and you tell them to "go to the doctor," are you telling them to go talk to a person with a PhD? no....

 

everyone has an important role. even if someone is "only" a garbageman or works for McDonalds, those are all important roles in society and I don't think we should look up or down to people just because we have more initials after our names. So what if he didn't go to med school? osteopaths play an important role also.

[metro_girl]

Part of the point I was making is being lost because of this whole discussion about D.O.s and M.D.s The test of "knowledge" was mostly to prove that the other women were equally intelligent. I don't think that's true in a booksmart way. I think it was much easier to marry a doctor for them, than to actually attend school, study, pass the exams, and become a doctor. Even if they wanted to, I don't think they would have been able to earn a graduate degree. My family was trying to make it appear that we women just made different choices with our lives, that I chose school and career over a husband and family. I didn't make the choice that way. I also want a husband and children, and I think I've now finally found the right man for me. I also don't think the women made the choice to have kids instead of attending school. I really don't think they would have been accepted into graduate school even if they wanted to go. They had time when they were younger to attend undergrad school, and they chose not to. They're my age, so it's not like women haven't been going to college.

[Survictor]

Does it matter to you that your intelligence was far superior to the other ladies? I don't think the guy was insulting your intelligence or trying to at all. It was just a game, designed for everyone, don't you think? I don't believe he was being deliberately patronising.

 

I am sure they know you are self sufficient, intelligent etc. Not everyone is the same. It would be a boring place if it were.

[annie24]

I still get the impression that you are looking down on these women. I mean, ok, so they didn't go to grad school. but that doesn't make them better or worse than us. Not everyone is cut out to get a PhD in physics, but not everyone is cut out to be a mom either.

[iamteddybearfeelmecuddle]

Well I think that the OP is saying not that she believes herself to be better than the other women, but that why is it that the other women's accomplishments (being a mother, homemaking, etc...) is being congratulated, while her accomplishments are either not being congratulated, not brought up, or being downplayed....

[annie24]

Well I think that the OP is saying not that she believes herself to be better than the other women, but that why is it that the other women's accomplishments (being a mother, homemaking, etc...) is being congratulated, while her accomplishments are either not being congratulated, not brought up, or being downplayed....

 

ah. that makes sense.

 

yeah, my mother hasn't ever told me once that she is proud of me for going to grad school, or even really expressed interest in what I study. but she seems far more interested in her friends' daughters who are getting married, etc....

 

well, whatever. I'm not in grad school to be patted on the head by my mom. My "family" is really more my classmates and my peers.

 

I think my mom has her own issues, which is why she may not acknowledge my accomplishments.

 

Actually, a similar topic came up with another person on enotalone. She was upset that her family was not supportive of her decision to go to med school. she is the only one in her family with a college degree, and the only one continuing on to an advanced degree. They would rather she stay at home and make babies. I think it has to do with them being jealous of her, that she is going off on an exciting life, and their choices were rather limited. They may feel, "what? our life isn't good enough for you?"

 

anyways, I wouldn't get too upset over your family and stuff. I think they may feel inadequet around you at times, even if you aren't showing off. They may feel secretly jealous that you went on, while they stayed at home pumping out babies and living in suburbia.

[Survictor]

I am sure there are those amongst the ladies who do not feel completely fulfilled being a housewife and mother. This is equally true of ladies who leave it too late to become a housewife and mother because they are persuing a career. Us ladies like to have it all! lol.

 

Fortunately, there are some that are completely contented to stay at home, raise and nurture their family and do the whole domestic thing.

 

It is not up to us to judge either and the truth is that either set might be wishing they were the other set and misjudging each other completely!

 

It is only when we open our hearts that we open our eyes.

[justpaisley]

Intelligence comes in different levels. You've obviously found a game at which you're a better player than these other women, but I'm sure they are knowledgeable about many subjects on which you are completely lost. One of my closest friends is a MENSA-level genius and stomped me a couple of days ago in Trivial Pursuit (and when I say stomped, I mean she filled up her little pie almost before I got a chance to open my diet coke), but then didn't understand why I wasn't giving my 6-month-old son turkey to eat... and is basically a social dud. She has a very hard time interacting socially, but has several advanced degrees in radically different fields. I know she considers herself superior to me because I dropped out of college because I didn't see the payoff and am ecstatic with being a stay-at-home mom, but that's fine with me. She's happy in her life, I'm happy in mine. It's when we start saying the grass is browner on the other side of the fence that we run into problems. You say you're not, but you definitely are looking down on these women because they weren't good at a word game. It's a word game. It doesn't matter. Their knowledge of 2 vs. 4 quarts in a gallon makes nary a bit of difference in the world. Now, if they didn't know who the president was or how to boil water, that'd be an issue. Your academic knowledge doesn't make you superior to them in any way.

 

I do think it's deplorable when people like annie24's mom don't pay attention to their daughter's accomplishments if children and weddings aren't involved. If I have a daughter, I'll be ecstatic if she goes on to higher academic pursuits. If you were my daughter, I'd be incredibly proud of you and would brag on you. Shoot, I'll be happy if my son wants to become a stay-at-home dad or something... I just want my children to be successful at whatever they choose to do. But you have to understand - quite frankly, from a parent's perspective, you can't cuddle with your child's PhD or buy it presents or take it to the park. Well, I suppose you could, but you'd get looks. Your PhD won't extend your bloodline. Your PhD will never call your mom "grandma" or hug her. While a parent should be excited about and supportive of their child's academic pursuits, a degree simply doesn't have the payoff to anyone but the student.

[justpaisley]

Also, a lot of individual perspective goes into this. When I made the statement at 15 that I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, I was laughed at and asked what my real goals were. I said that was it. I was mocked openly by several members of my family. My stepmom told me that I was an embarrassment to feminism. When I dropped out of college because I didn't see the payoff and I had no aspirations for a career outside of the home, my family was understandably disappointed - I honestly should have never gone to college in the first place.

 

Now I read lots of opinions on the internet that stay-at-home moms are lazy, uneducated, unloved, unhappy and that single girls are the place to be. So from my perspective, women are much more rewarded for their intelligence and academic ambition than domestic and mothering capabilities. To me, being a mother - a GOOD, devoted mother - is the most important job in the world, much more important than any job to which my academic pursuits would have led me, but almost always the least appreciated and most taken for granted.

[iamteddybearfeelmecuddle]

Well, I don't think your choices are more important than the OP's but obviously you do (and don't mind bragging about it).

 

You might not be able to cuddle a phd but I'd not feel too cuddly about a mom who played favorites.

[southerngirl]

I may not have a degree but I am not stupid either. To imply that because I dont have the same degree I am ignorant is an insult.

 

The choices I made in life were mine to make and while there are ways that maybe some would say I should have chosen or could have chosen, its this path that has led me where I am today.

 

Do not assume that someone without a degree is not as smart as you are. Do not assume you are any smarter. That is prejudiced thinking in a very basic form.

[justpaisley]

Well, I don't think your choices are more important than the OP's but obviously you do (and don't mind bragging about it).

 

My choices are more important to me. And of course I don't mind bragging on my choices - I am happy in my life and enjoy great success.

 

You might not be able to cuddle a phd but I'd not feel too cuddly about a mom who played favorites.

 

I would never play favorites among my children. If, hypothetically, I had 2 daughters, and one chose to be a stay-at-home mom and the other chose to pursue more academic goals, providing they're both successful and happy in their pursuits, I would be incredibly proud of both of them, and would brag on both of them. My husband and I don't care what our children do in life, as long as they are successful and happy with what they do, and we both recognize that there are many measures of success.

[Scout]

This is a hard one to call. It could very well be your family has prejudices against bright women, but in all honesty, it could be you're coming accross as intelligently superior in a way that is condescending and thus, is grating on their nerves. And if the latter, this wouldn't have much to do with your gender.

 

I am not sure if this will help you put things in perspective, but I can recall a recent incident at a bridal shower where I kept being the first to know the trivia answers. (Not that this is a testament to my intelligence, because the questions were related to pop culture...I was actually getting embarrassed to realize I knew the answers to so many questions about dumb celebrities, lol.) Anyway, I started to feel uncomfortable, like I wasn't giving the others (all women) a chance to win, so I put a lid on it.

[Batya33]

A few thoughts. I have been where you are, several times. You have to force yourself not to compare and to ignore the unfairness (for example I remember years ago the women in my office going nuts over someone's engagement ring - she had been dating the guy for years - but work related accomplishments never caused those kind of accolades).

 

You have to - have to! - stick to your values and what is important to you and not seek approval from others. They probably think you are some kind of alien (I don't - most of my friends are like you!). You don't have to prove anything to them.

 

However, when you are around others who chose a different path - sure, let them flaunt their jewelry, kids, husbands - but don't stoop to their level and flaunt your intelligence, degrees, etc. Having said that you might be branded as a "snob" simply because you have the degrees you do, before you open your mouth.

[iamteddybearfeelmecuddle]

My choices are more important to me. And of course I don't mind bragging on my choices - I am happy in my life and enjoy great success.

 

Yes, obviously. And it seems its ok for you to brag about your life and your choices, but not for the OP....hmmm......

 

I would never play favorites among my children

 

Thats neat but it wasn't directed at you..........

[Batya33]

Always interesting to me how inevitably, when someone praises academic intelligence the example that follows is of a woman or man who is academically intelligent but a social dud. I know of many unintelligent women and men who are social duds, too.

 

I do not look down on stay at home moms - mostly, I am in awe.

[Scout]

Myself, I'm kind of wondering why these kinds of conversations also inevitably turn into a career/education path versus being a stay-at-home mom. Especially when the two choices aren't mutually exclusive. There are plenty of professionals who become stay-at-home parents, and vice versa.

[justpaisley]

Always interesting to me how inevitably, when someone praises academic intelligence the example that follows is of a woman or man who is academically intelligent but a social dud. I know of many unintelligent women and men who are social duds, too.

 

I do not look down on stay at home moms - mostly, I am in awe.

 

I was trying to make the point that intelligence comes in all shapes and sizes. We each have our own unique qualities that make us intelligent. My friend is without a doubt academically smarter than me, but she couldn't do what I do, and doesn't want to, and that's fine. I don't want to do what she does, either. Again, she's happy in her life, I'm happy in mine. I know many more people who are academically intelligent and the life of the party - my husband comes to mind, and most of my friends. He's intelligent in most arenas (except, for heaven's sake, ASK me before eating the last piece of pumpkin pie. I might want it.). I, too, know many people who aren't particularly intelligent in most arenas, and are social duds.

 

I try not to look down on anyone. I want my son to learn that there is no superiority, only different choices that have been made. I would like him to treat everyone equally, whether the president is standing in front of him or a homeless man. And I'm in awe of single and working moms, myself.

 

Myself, I'm kind of wondering why these kinds of conversations also inevitably turn into a career/education path versus being a stay-at-home mom. Especially when the two choices aren't mutually exclusive. There are plenty of professionals who become stay-at-home parents, and vice versa.

 

It seems from my perspective that girls are generally rewarded or lauded for their academic intelligence more than those who choose to forego academia preferring to stay at home and take care of children, in direct contrast to the OP's post title. But that might be my own issues with other people looking down on me for my choices clouding my opinion on the subject. The OP probably has the same issue - she may feel that because her family looks down on her for not marrying or reproducing, that "ignorance" is rewarded above her academic intelligence. It's of course not okay for her cousins to mock her for not marrying - they should be over the moon that she's accomplished so much - but it's equally not okay for her to say that her cousins' wives are ignorant because they're bad at word games. As Batya33 said, she can't stoop to their levels.