The subject of Sex (from a guy POV)

[dogheadma]

I have had a woman give me flowers on two different occasions and I took it as a very sweet and thoughtful gesture.

[TiredMan]

The reasons for that is men are brought up because of these "traditions" to think that if they accept flowers that they are not "manly" or it's bad if they don't pay for the meals on initial dates or for some later on or all of the other stuff. Same with engagement rings. Try being a guy and telling someone you didn't buy your fiance an engagement ring because you didn't feel like and watch how many people would look at you all funny.

 

Like I said, the whole tradition is messed. At the same time, I blame the women for like it to stay that way and the ones who don't push hard enough to change them. Yes some women do offer but they also know that the guy will almost always say no. They are being "polite". There are some women who do get mad if the guy doesn't do these things and further dates would not happen. Well, if some had that same reaction when they guy refused them paying (REALLY insisted) then after a while, I think it would change. Or even better, talk about it BEFORE the time comes so it's not a split second reaction decision.

 

Sure there were always be guys who won't change but I bet you many might.

 

The other blame goes on guys who will do almost anything or accept anything unfair as long as they get the girl. They will do anything they can to "impress" her during the wooing portion. I always hated seeing that. Seeing guys fall over themselves trying to be the one "chosen" by the girl. They make it harder for guys with a backbone and pride. It's unfortunate.

 

Bottom line about this portion of what I posted is that if I am a single guy, I pretty much know that if I don't "cater" to the traditions, sure I might get some dates but the dating pool I choose from will be really really less.

[Scout]

Same with engagement rings. Try being a guy and telling someone you didn't buy your fiance an engagement ring because you didn't feel like and watch how many people would look at you all funny.

 

Hey...this is a little off track from your original thread, but I always like to see this issue raised, because I have recently learned some things about the jewelry industry that is really interesting to me. I know a couple that just wear plain metal bands for their wedding rings. They told me it's because they are against the mining industry.

 

Another guy posted information on the diamond industry on eNotalone, and how they perpetuated the widespread "tradition" that a diamond ring is standard for engagements. They have caused the public to believe that diamonds are really rare, when in fact, they AREN'T.

 

TiredMan, my point is that there are bigger forces often at work when it comes to instilling "traditions." We live in a very consumer-driven world, and there are often companies behind the beliefs that men should spoil women with gifts. For example, the de Beers diamond commercials and Hallmark cards, etc.

 

As someone who watches a great deal of TV yourself, surely you see this.

[Scout]

I have had a woman give me flowers on two different occasions and I took it as a very sweet and thoughtful gesture.

 

Yeah, I didn't mean to give the impression that any time I do something thoughtful for a guy I'm met with suspicion or disparagement. Hardly the case at all. Of course, when it does happen a few times, it's enough to make you pause for thought. Honestly, I thought the flowers were a classy gesture, and was genuinely surprised he didn't seem to care for getting them.

[Honey Pumpkin]

Just read this thread - sorry to arrive late to the party so to speak!

 

It was the face-slapping/hitting bit that I found hard: no one should hit anyone, I've never hit anyone in my life. But one thing that is deeply embedded in me as a female is that if a man ever hit me, I would leave and never look back. I think a lot of women have that as a bottom line, because the truth is that domestic abuse is about 90% male against female. I know that men are also in abusive relationships (I work in the voluntary sector which deals with this issue), and my advice would be the same for them. It's not about retaliation, it's about leaving someone who raises their hand to you.

 

I also need to be with someone who would never ever hit a woman under any circumstances. I wouldn't be with a man who had hit a woman, it would make me ill. If I were a man, I think I would say the same about a woman, so I'm not being hypocritical.

[TiredMan]

I think a lot of women have that as a bottom line, because the truth is that domestic abuse is about 90% male against female. I know that men are also in abusive relationships (I work in the voluntary sector which deals with this issue), and my advice would be the same for them.

 

That is completely untrue. Cmon! I would say more women hit men than the other way around but guys usually don't look at it as "abuse" because it's a woman hitting them. If they report it, they are almost laughed at. Or they think a woman hitting them is NOT abuse. Like I said, a woman slapping a man in the face for a comment he made for example, is not considered abuse by many people. Maybe for some but that isn't enough.

[Honey Pumpkin]

That is completely untrue. Cmon! I would say more women hit men than the other way around but guys usually don't look at it as "abuse" because it's a woman hitting them. If they report it, they are almost laughed at. Or they think a woman hitting them is NOT abuse. Like I said, a woman slapping a man in the face for a comment he made for example, is not considered abuse by many people. Maybe for some but that isn't enough.

 

No, it's not completely untrue. The figures in the UK *are* the figures. I'll post the stats for you if you like, because I do like to be able to back up an argument with facts.

 

"Research estimates that domestic violence:

• accounts for 16% of all violent crime (Source: Crime in England and Wales 04/05 report)
  
• has more repeat victims than any other crime (on average there will have been 35 assaults before a victim calls the police)
  
• costs in excess of £23bn a year
  
• claims the lives of two women each week (106 per year)
  
• is the largest cause of morbidity worldwide in women aged 19-44, greater than war, cancer or motor vehicle accidents
  
• will affect 1 in 4 women in their lifetime
  

"

 

I don't know why you are so vehement about my statement that the majority of domestic violence is male against female, when that is simply factual - there IS a problem of women abusing men, I agree, but nowhere near the same level. There may be a problem in reporting it, but as the stats above show, that works for women too = 35 assaults before someone calls the police. That is not to downplay any violence at all. As I clearly said, violence against anyone is wholly unacceptable. I'm not sure why you're so angry here, to be honest.

[FifthLine]

from the US Department of Justice

Office of Justice Programs

National Institute of Justice

 

National Violence Against Women Survey

 

Prevalence, Incidence and Consequences of Violence Against Women

 

1,510,455 women and 834,732 men victims of domestic violence

1.5% vs. 0.8% in one year, 22.1% vs. 7.4% lifetime—why the discrepancy?

Annual physical assault rate—44.2/1000 women, 31.5/1000 men

Average 3.5 victimizations per male victim, 3.4 per female victim

1.1% of married/co-habiting women and 0.6% of men assaulted annually

About twice as many male victims has a knife used on them (10.8% to 4.1%), were threatened with a knife (21.6% to 12.7%), or were hit with an object likely to cause harm (43.2% to 22.6%.

Exhibit 11 shows percentage of subjects surveyed, not percentage of subjects assaulted. See below. For example, "threw something" is 8% of the 8,000 women surveyed, not 8% of the 1,768 surveyed women who were assaulted. 36.7% of the assaulted women surveyed had something thrown at them, and 59.5% of the assaulted men. 96.8% of women and 90.5% of men assaulted experienced one of the more serious forms of assault.

Well over half the men, but only 40% of the women, were physically assaulted by an adult caretaker as a child.

As children: mother (alone or with other) the physical abuser in 43% of cases, responsible for 48% of fatalities.

Father (alone or with other) physical abuser in 28% of cases, responsible for 12%. U.S. DHHS Children's Bureau, Child Maltreatment 1999

 

 

pdf file link removed

[freedom]

i have been waiting for a post like this. A statement that points out flaws of women in general society and the reaction to it.

looking at it, i find it funny that when women post heading like,

 

What's your boyfriends flaw??

 

 

there are reactions to it that gleefully critisize the male gender, but when a male post his point of view about women he get shot down for it. Though it may be generalisation, his point are true in general society, you can "see" it. Though it may not apply to you, there is a trend. It is just silly to deny the existence of current womens behaviour in a society that they see they can take advantage of.

It is a joke to deny the existence of the current descrimination against men and it plays through here. THough some men and women do feel that this post is unfair, i think he has a fair point. It may not apply to YOU directly but there is truth to it.

[TiredMan]

HoneyPumpkin, those statistics are very flawed. Did anyone read what I wrote? More women hit men than the other way around. But MEN DON"T REPORT IT. thereforeeee, the figures wouldn't be there. THey don't report it because as a society, a woman slapping a man is not really considered abuse by many people. But a man slapping a woman is considered abuse by every single person. Even if she hit him first and it was self defense, many consider it "wrong" to hit a woman no matter what.

 

Men also don't report it because to say that a woman "abused" him is tough. He will get laughed at because we as a society think that way. Throwing a drink in a guy's face because he is being rude. Do you guys know how much that happens? I'm sure people will say I am just mad because that has happened to me but no, it hasn't and if it did. I would pour my drink on top of her head. But my "reaction" would be considered out of line of course.

[TiredMan]

It's ok Freedom. I expected to get a similar response because of the very reasons you said. One guy was even told his thinking was like a "rapists". Unbelievable nonsense. You get a few people who are open minded enough to tackle the issues. Then the rest try to "analyze" me or get defensive about it.

 

But hey, it's a free country. What can you do?

[LixnJinx]

HoneyPumpkin, those statistics are very flawed. Did anyone read what I wrote? More women hit men than the other way around. But MEN DON"T REPORT IT. thereforeeee, the figures wouldn't be there. THey don't report it because as a society, a woman slapping a man is not really considered abuse by many people. But a man slapping a woman is considered abuse by every single person. Even if she hit him first and it was self defense, many consider it "wrong" to hit a woman no matter what.

 

thats a really strong point tiredman has, most people either dont see that as being abuse or if its serious abuse, men just wont report it, this is because theres a mantaility out there that if i guy is getting beat up by a girl then hes a joke and will get laughed at. getting abused by a girl for the guy is horrible, cause if he cant find a way to get out, he suffers threw the abuse, if he tells someone or trys to report it then he'll be demascullinated. Its along the lines if a guy was raped, majortiy of men would rather not report it and just go along and forget about it.

 

also physical abuse isnt he only abuse in a relationship, emotional abuse is alot worse. try being with someone and having them scream at you how your an idiot, then keep you up all hours of the night so you cant do anything next day, just because they dont think you love them, and having them tell you there hanging out with an ex boyfriend and calling you later saying they fooled around with them and there sorry. mind games are dangerous...that was a bit off track, point was woman and men do abuse each other, it just seems that men are the only ones being ragged on for it.

 

just like insurance for new drivers, its higher for males then females because theres more Reported speeding tickets for them. thing is every girl i've known when they first had there lisense can list 5 times they sped, ran a stop sign or even rear ended someone, and they cryed and got out of it. 541$ speeding ticket and its changed to a warning, stop sign? better not happen again, back end of the car? just as long as you can pay for it then we wont go through insurances for it. i mean really if a guy tryed to cry to get out of something like that, i could actuly see the cop slaping the guy and calling him a wuss. it just really seems girls have alot more cards in there hands then guys. they band together in femisit groups better and the media backs up everything they do. if a girl cheats on you, you really will never know unless she tells you, but vice versa hell even your best friends ready to rat you out.

theres no winning

[Scout]

To me, there are two main things you are saying TiredMan:

 

1) The balance of expectations when it comes to sex, chivalry, and restraint from physical violence from both genders is very unfair, and drastically tipped in favor of females.

 

2) Women more than men are actively to blame for this.

 

Is this what you're saying?

[Honey Pumpkin]

I'm sorry, maybe we're talking about different things. But in terms of domestic abuse - if you go the casualty department on a Saturday night, people who have been hospitalised by domestic abuse are more likely to be women. Police are called out for domestic disputes - it's normally the woman for whom they have to call the ambulence. Maybe it's different in the US, but here, domestic abuse is much more likely to be men against women. My stats are not flawed - they are what they are. I'm not quite sure what else to say, to be honest, because it seems pretty obvious to me.

 

In terms of domestic violence, women are more likely to be the victims of violence by men than men by women. I could post a LOT more information about this, but I feel disinclined as you seem to dismiss any relevant information as 'flawed', and just continue with your 'gut' instinct; that doesn't really work for me as a reasoned argument

 

Also, to stress again that all violence is wrong, and I would never condone anyone hitting another person, of either gender.

[Honey Pumpkin]

I know that this post will be dismissed as flaws, but it irritates me that the facts are being summarily dismissed. Just went to the BBC website (very well respected), and lifted this about domestic violence in the UK:

 

"This website has largely referred to victims as women and children and to perpetrators as male. According to the latest figures from the Home Office*, out of an estimated 635,000 incidents of domestic violence in 2001/2 in England and Wales - 81 per cent of the victims were women and 19 per cent were men.

 

Of course, lesbians and gay men also experience domestic violence (for further information please call Broken Rainbow on 08452 60 55 60 or visit link removed you can call the Lesbian and Gay Switchboard on 020 7837 7324 or visit link removed.

 

Men also experience domestic violence at the hands of female abusers. However, in the overwhelming majority of cases, domestic violence, especially the most dangerous and lethal violence, is committed by men towards their female partners and this website reflects that reality. Also, most male victims are not harassed after they end the relationship whereas for abused women, this is the most dangerous time for them.

 

There is a section on male victims that addresses issues that specifically affect men.

 

However, much of the information here will be of use to anyone who experiences domestic violence irrespective of gender or sexuality. Of all the services available to assist domestic violence victims, only refuges are exclusively for women.

 

*(Crime in England and Wales, Home Office, July 2002)"

 

I guess we will need to agree to disagree on the facts of domestic violence, Tired Man. I'm not really prepared to post stat after stat, and have it dismissed as flawed. And I want to remain respectful to your point of view - and again stressthat all violence is wrong.

[TiredMan]

Honey Pumpkin, seems you are dismissing what I'm saying.

 

Ok lets say we have 1000 couples where hitting occurs.

 

Lets say that in 333 of them the man hits the woman.

 

In 333 of them, the woman hits the man.

 

In 334 of them, the hitting goes both ways.

 

My contention is that in the first 333, I would say about 250 of the women would report it, leaving the remaining to those who don't call cops or are afraid to call them.

 

In the 333 of the woman hitting the men, I would say maybe 25 report them because of the reason I repeated earlier.

 

In the final group, I would say the guy would be report in most of those cases.

 

This is why you have the statistics you have. Men don't report it very often when they are hit by women for the reasons I said. You cannot dismiss this. Just like if men are raped by women, people don't feel bad for the guy, they wonder "how?" or they make fun of him.

 

You can give me figures saying that the report abuse cases show that it's 99 percent of those reported is man hitting woman but that does NOT change the fact that men don't report being hit by woman for so many reasons. This is just how it is.

[Honey Pumpkin]

I'm sorry, I quoted facts - I quoted actual figures. Figures from the UK about domestic violence, many of which were lethal. You on the other hand are just randomly plucking figures from the air. It's not the same - you have nothing to back this up, apart from 'it's how you feel'. I agree with some of what you're saying, that there is a stigma for men who are the victims of domestic violence, and that is wrong. But the sheer weight of numbers of women who are hospitalised - it's just not the same.

 

Unless you can point to some research or evidence, rather than 'gut' instinct, this is a pointless argument for me. I've said over and over that violence against men is wrong, but that doesn't negate the fact that women are overwhelmingly the victims of domestic violence.

 

I feel like you're not listening to me - I have tried to take on board what you're saying, and agree with some points. But it's very frustrating talking to someone who cannot back up their argument, and refuse to acknowledge any validity in my posts.

 

Good luck!

[TiredMan]

Ok then answer me this question. If men don't report when they are hit a high majority of the time, how do you expect there to be statistics?

 

And I'm sorry but if you ask almost every guy, they will all tell you that a woman shoved, hit, slapped or did whatever to them at least once in their life and they never reported it because of what I said. They just overlooked it. This is FACT not gut instinct.

 

Look at teachers who molest their students. When it's a male teacher, female student it IS looked at differently than the other way around. They frown on the female teacher but most people joke about the situation. In fact, who is that female teacher who had sex with her underage student, got caught, did minimal jail time and like married him when she got out. It's just looked at differently.

 

Edit: link removed. Check out the reasons listed here. Very similar to what I say no?

 

I think you are just conveniently negating that there are factors outside of figures. I've seen guys slapped in bars and at no time, were the cops EVER called.

[dogheadma]

 

And I'm sorry but if you ask almost every guy, they will all tell you that a woman shoved, hit, slapped or did whatever to them at least once in their life and they never reported it because of what I said. They just overlooked it. This is FACT not gut instinct.

 

 

 

Have you heard from almost every guy? I've never been hit, slapped, or shoved by a woman. A fact is information that is accompanied by some form of physical evidence to substantiate it. If you don't have any evidence, you don't have a fact. Do you hear how silly some of your statements are sounding? You make some good points, but then you shoot yourself in the foot when state your opinion as fact.

[melrich]

No woman has ever hit me.

[TiredMan]

Have you heard from almost every guy? I've never been hit, slapped, or shoved by a woman. A fact is information that is accompanied by some form of physical evidence to substantiate it. If you don't have any evidence, you don't have a fact. Do you hear how silly some of your statements are sounding? You make some good points, but then you shoot yourself in the foot when state your opinion as fact.

 

No, I am using something called an "inference". I obviously have not (as has no one) asked every single guy. Funny how you don't use this same defense when someone uses statistics from the UK and just makes a statement like like it's 90 percent men being violent on women like that is representative of the world. Or about that one person who posted US stats about violence against men from women, but no one comments on that. Hmmmmm.

 

My point is that men do NOT report this stuff on the most part. So by your logic, no statements can ever be made unless there is physical evidence.

 

Ok so no one can EVER say women are usually more sensitive and emotional than men because they haven't interviewed every single woman on earth.

 

You feel that I "shoot myself in the foot" and you are entitled to your opinion. I completely disagree with it.

[TiredMan]

Don't worry. I'm sure this post will be ignored.

[Honey Pumpkin]

Okay, just had a look on the Abuse and Violence forum here - you will agree that this forum is supportive and non-judgemental, wouldn't you? and allows people to post anonymously and without fear of ridicule? anyway, it's overwhelmingly WOMEN who are posting there. i only looked at the first page or so, but it really wasn't 50/50 like you're suggesting.

 

again, all violence is wrong - i would be equally outraged at a man being hit or a woman being hit. i just don't think your hypothesis works, that it's equal.

[TiredMan]

So this forum is now representative of the world?

 

You just don't seem to get what I am saying. Men don't look at it as "abuse" because they are conditioned to think it is not "manly" to do so.

 

I don't think it's 50/50. I think a lot more men are hit by women but it's not considered abuse. Heck, even a "stop it" type of slap would be considered abuse if I did it public to a woman. Women do it all the time and it goes unnoticed.

 

I remember way back when I was in high school. This girl and I were trading insults back and forth. I got in a good one that really bothered her and she proceeded to kick me in the nether region. It hurt and I hunched down (trying to catch my breath and any guy who has been hit in any way in that region knows that feeling) while she laughed. No one said a word to her. And there were A LOT of people there. Well I got up and punched her in the breast hard and she was on the floor as well. I don't want to even tell you how many people questioned how I could hit a girl. Unbelievable nonsense.

 

Sure many people consider it "out of line" if the guy says something and she slaps him but it is NOT considered abuse by so many. That is the difference here. Look at the link I provided earlier about battered men and the reasons why they dont report it. You will see many similiarities to what I said.

[freedom]

Tiredman, i am in there with you. Hang in there.. you are not alone.