Having a tough time reading her (long)

[omayitna]

I've been seeing this women for a while, mostly activity dates: mountain biking, hiking, tennis, climbing, stuff like that. I call her a bit more than she calls me, but she does call me, it isn't one way. We are not *dating* exactly, no kissing or anything, I'm working to be friends first. I've gotten too involved with women too quickly before and I want to take things slower this time.

 

Anyway, there are times I've noticed that she seems very withdrawn, and I've noticed that this seems to occur when she is having an acne or cold sore episode. She is very pretty, but also very active and athletic (plays soccer in a league, plays tennis, runs a lot) and I think she has the kind of skin that some athletes have that breaks out when you sweat a lot. It doesn't bother me at all, and it has never come up in conversation, but I've noticed that when I'm with her and she is having one of these episodes, she won't make eye contact, and doesn't smile, or anything. Other times, she seems fine, perky, up beat, and talkative and makes eye contact. I know this would bother some people, so here is the question.

 

I've been trying to propose a dinner date with her. She will say yes to the idea, but when it comes time to actually choose a night to do it, she becomes busy; she is a CPA and one of her big clients was going through an audit, and then she went out of town to visit her sister that just moved to a different state and had to make up a bunch of hours at work since she took a 4 day weekend in the middle of this client being audited. Now, she tells me she wants to go climbing with me this weekend... but acts like she forgot about me asking her to dinner... and I'm wondering if I'm supposed to be catching some hint that I should stop asking her to dinner and be content to hang with her doing sports. I think she is the kind of women that has a closet full of sports clothes... but almost no going out clothes... she told me once she had to go to a friends wedding and was going to have to borrow a dress from a friend because she didn't really have anything nice enough.

 

So, my dilema is trying to read her, and I've come up with these:

1) Either she is ashamed of these acne/cold sore breakouts and if she is in the middle of one she doesn't want to see me, and it is just been bad timing that this has happened about the time that I proposed dinner.

2) She is brushing me off and I'm too dense to get it; meaning she just wants to be friends but not romantic

3) Her idea of a date is climbing or hiking, not going out to dinner; she is a tomboy (but that is one of the things I liker about her)

 

I've heard of women canceling a date due to an acne breakout she didn't want a guy to see, in fact I recall my sister doing it once, but would an adult women really do that? This chic is 31. I don't mind asking her about #2 or #3, I'd feel weird asking her about #1.

 

What do you women think?

[Batya33]

Here is what I would do to make sure you cover all bases (pun intended with the sports reference): in the event that she doesn't like eating in front of people (or you specifically - because of a potential romantic interest) suggest something comparably romantic/non-sports like and see what happens - i.e. wine tasting, going to the theater or some other live performance, an evening cruise, etc.

 

Why not ask her if she is self-conscious about her breakouts - and tell her that you understand why she would be but that you hope it has nothing to do with you seeing her skin that way - that it is not a problem at all and you find her attractive both inside and out.

 

While I agree generally with the concept of friends first I think often it creates more confusion than it's worth. I prefer to just take things slow in a dating context - i.e. keep the physical intimacy at a slow pace but make it clear that you are courting her and going on dates.

[Beec]

Why ask her to dinner, if you are not comfortable with it? Seriously, I think you are going about this all wrong. What I would be doing with her, first, is stuff she likes, and then I would be both joking and flirting with her. You seem active, so you must be in good shape. Next time you are with her, and some other woman looks at you, joke about that woman could not keep her eyes off of you and how it makes you uncomfortable because you feel like they just want you for your body. Joke about her, but not the break outs. When she shows up with a lot of stuff, ask if she plans on being away for a month? or if she is moving? or if she thinks she is coming to move in with you, and follow that right up with, a slow down because you don't move that fast. It all has to be joking, but do it and flirt. And then if she flirts back, BUST A MOVE. Grab her hand, grab her and land one on her, whatever, bust a move. Once you break that ice, go back to joking about not moving so fast, because you are just not that type of guy.

[omayitna]

Batya33: I like the cruise idea, she has told me multipe times how much she likes boating. The ones in this city seem rather touristy, but I'll check it out.

 

Beec: I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm not comfortable with dinner, just that I've been taking things slow. Great advice about the joking. I think most of my dating experience is more in the traditional sense, dinner, dancing, that kind of thing. And in those settings I have no problem busting a move. Climbing or some related activity isn't something I normally associate with dating, and this chic makes me a bit nervous, so I'm probably not in top flirting form around her. But, last time we went out there were in fact a couple of other chics talking to me while I had her on belay, so I'll try to use that line with her about them just wanting me for my body You also might be right that I should be listening to her about what she likes to do (hike, climb, ride, tennis, boat)... maybe that kind of stuff is just more fun to her. I just have more move-busting experience on dates that are urban so I'm trying to get us in that setting.

 

Thanks to both of you.

[Beec]

Maybe you can create a sceanrio to us my favorite easy simple, low risk move: the hand bump. You and her walking side-by-side, and your hands touch and move away. If she reacts well, they will touch again in a short time, touch and move away. The contact repeats and you stay touching longer. Then you grab her hand. If at anytime she reacts poorly, you just stop doing it. Once you are holding hadns, everything else is in the open.

 

A hike could be a good thing to try a move on too.

 

Basically, there are little things you can do to gauge interest without sticking your neck out too far.

 

If she is holding hands with you, then you should soon thereafter, that night or day, grab her and kiss her, gently maybe, but do it.

 

Finally, I think the friends route is overvalued. You can take things slow once you know what road you are on, and I would do that. Pushing her for more, to be exclusive, for sex, for whatever, is almost always a sure way to get it slower.

[omayitna]

The kind of hiking we do is high intensity, no side by side strolls, the trails are not that wide. She is normally right in front of me... good view for me that way too.

 

When we climb, our hands touch as we exchange gear back and forth, chalk bag, carabiners, etc. I get the sense the moment lingers a bit, but that could just be me. There are ways to hand gear to somebody without touching them, and we don't do it that way.

 

I'm a bit of a serious type when I am nervous, I must admit, and find it much easier to relax or flirt after some wine (hence the dinner idea), but I'm going to try to touch her more when we climb next.

[Beec]

The kind of hiking we do is high intensity, no side by side strolls, the trails are not that wide. She is normally right in front of me... good view for me that way too.

 

Comment on that. When you hike somewhere and she likes the view, tell her you liked the view you had in front of you coming up the trail. Or walk in front of her and joke that she likes the view of your rear.

[Derek]

My read is she is in the middle of friendszoning him.

 

He's serious, he's not that flirty, he's always there to "do stuff with".

 

I think he's gotta push the romantic envelop, even one level (hands or a kiss) and see how she reacts.

 

I read the stuff about acne/clothes/demeanor as just rationalizations for a pattern of behaviour. Eventually you have to take it at face value.

 

She may not be that into you.

 

What's the worst that could happen if you lay your cards on the table?

 

Something like: "I like you, you like me, I'd be happy to try "us" out, would you?"

 

Do the players or ladies on enotalone think that's just too direct? Loses the mystery? To me it sounds like they've built enough rapport over the many activities they've done. Why not risk it?

 

 

Derek

[Beec]

My read is she is in the middle of friendszoning him.

 

He's serious, he's not that flirty, he's always there to "do stuff with".

 

I think he's gotta push the romantic envelop, even one level (hands or a kiss) and see how she reacts.

 

I agree wholeheartedly, but talking is not the way to find out. BUST A MOVE. I have and I've seen someone snatch a girlfriend just about as he was to fall into the abyss of friendship by busting a move. It changes her perspective when you grab her and land one, then say good night and walk away.

[omayitna]

One reason I've been holding back on the 'bust a move' approach is that I don't want her to get the impression that I'm a player. A bit more detail around that. We met climbing, and did Mt. Rainier last year with a club. When we were at the ranger hut getting the permit, a women ranger that I knew was there, and greeted me with this big smile and emotional 'how are you'... it was almost embarrassing (I knew the ranger from an outdoor first aid class we had both been in a few months earlier). Then I took this chic climbing to a local indoor gym, and when I'm with her my climbing coach (also a women) comes over and is chatting me up and smiling and again I'm wishing she would go away cause I'm trying to get to know my date; then another time we are climbing at the same gym and two other women are flirting with me (sort of) right in front of her. Also, I've been married and divorced twice.

 

So, I feel some need to live down a reputation... I want to be her friend first... and I'm serious about that because I like this chic much more than any of the others I just mentioned. I don't want to bust a move and scare her into thinking I'm just another dude that wants to get laid. So, I'm trying to go slow, but I'm ready to start ratcheting things up. But I hear what you are saying, if I go too slow I risk her losing interest. I was mainly trying the read the situtation about why she might be shying away from dinner.

 

I'm climbing with her Tuesday after work (as it turns out I can't do this weekend because I'm doing another 2 day climb), so I'll try to be warmer to her.

[Beec]

Dont' worry too much about being perceived as a player. I've been so perceived and rarely found it did not work for me.