New Thoughts On Suicide

[Eto]

I can't help but to question everything. I'm constantly searching for answers to those certain questions; Why are we here? Why am I aware? Why was I born me and not you? Why am I this way or that?

I was reading your replies to my "Last Poem..." thread and saw once again how many view suicide as an act of cowardice. How is suicide cowardice? How is wanting to relieve pain a sign of weakness? Does not every human generally gravitate towards experiences deemed pleasant while trying to avoid episodes of hurt? What is a person supposed to do when they haven't the ability to cope with the degree of distress that they are under? Can't suicide be a logical outcome to certain situations?

While I was at work today I was struggling trying to decide rather to take my anti-depressants again. My mood in general is still much improved but I still find myself crying for no real reason. My confidence will falter for a moment and then bam, I'm burying my face in my hands. I'm debating if whether this is better then how I felt while taking the meds.

After one of these crying fits today something else popped into my head. If you look at species in nature, other than humans, nearly all living things are evolving. Species are adapting to changing environments or turning different colors to fool new found predators. Some species form symbiotic relationships with others for mutual benefit. All this has been going on for millions of years. Species evolving. Species exploiting their evolutionary advantages.

What's the evolutionary advantage of suicide?(Human suicide that is. Not penguin suicide) As a species, how do we benefit from people committing suicide? Could it just be natural selection? Could those of us that choose to end our own lives just be strengthening the gene pool by not procreating and giving birth to others with mental deficiencies like our own?

Perhaps suicide is a mechanism to prevent over-population, evolutionarily speaking.

Whatever it may be, I don't thing that suicide is an act of cowardice. Hurting the people we leave behind is not a reason to stay, as the dead aren't aware of the pain that they cause.

Anyways, can one blame the mentally retarded for their behavior?

[shelly7]

Intense post.

I'm not trying to preach, but it's really important that you take your medications on a daily basis in order for them to work properly. Most antidepressants don’t work until they’ve been in your system for at least a month, and I’m sure I don’t have to tell you what you feel like when you don’t take them for a couple of days, and no it’s not because of your thought processes or anything you might be going through, it truly is a physical reaction, a pretty hardcore withdrawal. So please I can’t stress enough how important it is to take those medications faithfully. If you feel like you don’t want to be on them, speak to your doctor about either changing prescriptions or coming off slowly.

 

Okay after saying that, you brought up some interesting points about suicide and life purpose. I think most people have contemplated their demise at random points in their lives. All of the philosophical questions you ask, why are we here, etc..? I don’t have the answers but you could spend a lifetime researching the many different theories. Maybe that’s why you are here to ask those questions, and to find answers, and to make sense of it to the rest of us who are too lazy or too wrapped up in our own problems to really even ponder those concepts.

 

Why do people view suicide as an act of cowardice? In my humble opinion, I believe that we all get hurt, but usually in time life turns around and we experience some happiness again or we get interested in certain topics that we feel motivated to pursue. In these moments of clarity we are led from our original hurt to a greater purpose. If we were all to just end our lives every time something hurt us or we couldn’t cope, think of all that would be lost. I think a lot of people find the most strength in their lives when they experience hurt, or pain, or think they can’t cope, because it’s through all of that, that we grow stronger.

[Slacker]

It's funny actually, how humans are the only suicidal species........

 

The best theory i'd ever heard was from a science fiction author, who described penicillin as a way to control bacterial cultures, and associated it with suicide as a means of controlling human culture (both examples involving a "great observer")

[talo]

I don't think that suicide is an act of cowardice.

In what context? Captain Oates on Scott's Polar trip was not a coward.

 

...can one blame the mentally retarded for their behavior?

In the context of such a persons mind, a context of ignorance, how can there truly be blame.

 

Answers are only answers in a particular context.

[BYOB]

I've read enough today and my tolerance to reading is low.

However, I'm replying on purpose to help you.

I know I can help you answer all of your questions, without execptions but today, I'm exhausted. Don't, don't?, don't! pass by the following opportunity: PM me; wathever the message you'll send.

 

I'll answer all of your questions. Any advice I can leave you for now is: try documentation on that matter. Better be warned right now: it is extremely hard to find. Even after those revolutive millenniums, humanity is still at a stade where it is ignorant and careless.

 

To add anything constructive to this tread, I got a question to add:

Why don't we have answers to such fundamental questions?

 

My personnal opinion: if we really try answering, we get depressed...

Quite amazing, isn't it !

[phantomwolff85]

I've felt the same way, BYOB. Those types of questions really aren't ones that most people are ready to answer. You'd have to devote your life to it, or at least a good portion of your time. If you aren't ready to answer them they can just compound your problems. At the same time, often times these types of questions come up at the times when you are feeling down.

I think most people think of suicide as an act of cowardice because they feel that every problem is solvable and that by committing suicide you hurt other people. I do feel that problems get better as you give them time. If I were you I'd throw myself into something that you really enjoy or really enjoyed. I know it may be difficult, but you might be able to harness your energy into a creative venture.

There might really be nothing you can do now except change anti depressants. I also know that our perception of things can be greatly distorted when we are feeling bad and that this creates a cycle which makes things worse. I don't know what the problems are that you are facing, but talking can definitely help, especially if you have issues with someone.

[talo]

How is wanting to relieve pain a sign of weakness? Does not every human generally gravitate towards experiences deemed pleasant while trying to avoid episodes of hurt? What is a person supposed to do when they haven't the ability to cope with the degree of distress that they are under?

 

Relieving pain is not a sign of weakness. There is a difference between physical and mental pain. Mental pain can be relieved by changing thinking/belief. This is not easy but a worthwhile life pursuit. In fact it is not so much really changing thinking, it is seeing how our thinking causes or adds to pain, including physical pain.

 

We are conditioned to think that there are answers, solutions to problems. And there are, and these solutions are solely in the mental area. It is not that "seeing is believing" it is that "believing is seeing".

 

For example, if we see we are depressed and so believe that things are depressing, then they are. But if we believe things are ok we will see ok things. Believing is held thinking. When the senses detect an object, we automatically interpret or place value on the object in accordance with belief or held thinking. This automaticity of operation can be reversed and seen through.

 

This reversal or deconstruction of belief is rewarding and freeing.

 

So in 'answer' to your question "What is a person supposed to do when they haven't the ability to cope with the degree of distress that they are under?"

 

I would say be very kind and gentle with yourself and respect that at the moment you can have no other response to 'your situation'. 'Your situation' is a mental construct. Your situation is improved, ie your mental construct is improved by 'looking mentally' at 'a better construct' ie a brighter or lighter construct. In truth, our situation is mental. In other words, lightening or brightening our mental construct improves our mood. Mood is determined by thinking. It is most important how we think.

 

As I said in my previous post it all depents on context. Be careful of what mental context (construct) you put yourself in.

 

With best wishes,

[Spugly Fuglet]

Wow long post, here's my point of view. I think the way your thinking now is pulling you to a mind set thats making

you fixate on suicide, and your

statement "Can't suicide be a logical outcome to certain situations?" is after reading through your post an atempt by you mind to selectively think its self into one of thows situations.

 

Don't trust it, its a trick, you have clinical deprestion, the meds tells me that. As has been said you have been off them for a bit and your now starting back on them, I know when I do I get a down blip at the start. Take your meds as and when prescribed and tell your doc asap if you think there not working.

 

I will add this point,

"How is suicide cowardice?"

 

Its cowardice the same way a bank rober is a coward, its about doing what is right and not doing what is wrong. We all know there is money in a bank. With it we do what ever we wonted, for what ever resions we liked. All we have to do is walk in with a gun and threaten to take somes life to get it. Some bank teller, guard or mother and child. Most of us know this, some think about it and a few try it. But its the many who are tempted but then do not act apon that temptation that strong and true. Thows that would distroy others lifes to get what they won't for pourly selfish resions they are cowards for knowing what is right but not doing it.

 

through out our life we face this over and over, each time we are put to the test, what is right over what is esay.

 

Ever day normal, avrage men and women take the active distion to do what's right.

 

To walk into self death for your own needs is not an act of braviry. You will distroy others lives with your act that's now difrent from killing a child in a bank robery in my book.

 

As for making our DnA better, have read the works of Richard Darkins geans just doink work that way sorry your talking about an older view of evilotion that out of date in scientific tarms. You see there is now way of knowing what good geans are, bad one's today could just what you need in the world of tomorrow geans are not fixed in time as the environment they exsist in is not fixed.

 

That's way I'm a Taoest, I see us as water running through the landscape of time and space. To have fixed form is to stop flowing with the world around us. It is to frozen and left behind.

 

I hope my words help,

[TheRedQueen]

Suicide is the action that enables one to expedite his own death.

 

And you are correct Eto to point out that probably on some larger evolutionary scale, regarding the proliferation of the species as a whole, suicide would be a way to weed out unwanted genes.

 

But heck, if you are smart enough to realize that, in my opinion, your genes are more than worthy.

 

You know what Eto, not only should you not commit suicide, but I'm gonna take this request one step further and suggest that you find some happiness, then eventually a mate, and breed.

[Spugly Fuglet]

"And you are correct Eto to point out that probably on some larger evolutionary scale, regarding the proliferation of the species as a whole, suicide would be a way to weed out unwanted genes."

 

Nope sorry Red Queen you and Eto are wrong like I said genes do not work that way.

 

See you say unwanted genes but to know that is a 20/20 hind sight things you have to be at the end to time to go "O I see it would have been so much better if we could have done away with them just there!" But even the your would have to rerun time to see if you where right.

 

 

One has no way of knowing what genes will be of use later on to man kind so QED your wrong.

 

See there is a theory that Autisem has helped man kind and is now part of our brain make up.

 

So I would say killing yourself as some selfless act to remove what you wrongly believe as your bad genes to help the rest of us is at best missgided and very wrong.

[TheRedQueen]

Natural selection, is truly a process of elimination,(according to Darwin)

where through several kinds of selection, individuals within a species whose genes are viewed as desirable will have a higher likeliness to mate and thereforeeee proliferate , whereas individuals whose genes are viewed as undesirable will have a much lower chance to mate, and thereforeeee have fewer descendents to pass their "undesirable" genes to.

[chemica]

What's the evolutionary advantage of suicide?(Human suicide that is. Not penguin suicide) As a species, how do we benefit from people committing suicide? Could it just be natural selection? Could those of us that choose to end our own lives just be strengthening the gene pool by not procreating and giving birth to others with mental deficiencies like our own?

Perhaps suicide is a mechanism to prevent over-population, evolutionarily speaking.

 

I actually wrote a large thread on suicide and natural selection in a different forum about a ear ago. It seems insane that another person was thinking the same thing. Wrote it not long after my little sister commited suicide and I started getting depressed like her.

 

I do think RedQueen is right though, that people who are intelligent enough to think like this are probably better off procreating than many other people. It is easier for someone like you Eto to find happiness than for someone who is happy but not bright to find intelligence.

[Spugly Fuglet]

Natural selection, is truly a process of elimination,(according to Darwin)

where through several kinds of selection, individuals within a species whose genes are viewed as desirable will have a higher likeliness to mate and thereforeeee proliferate , whereas individuals whose genes are viewed as undesirable will have a much lower chance to mate, and thereforeeee have fewer descendents to pass their "undesirable" genes to.

 

Wow what a mess, you have bunched up all the kinds of selection.

 

Ok Ill have to back this down into the key points to unpick you counter point.

 

Lets start with Darwinian Evolution theory his theoy is that of heritable traits

 

Throw successive generations, Which leads to Special diversification enabling one type of organism to adapt to new environment factors or to exploit all ready existing ones.

 

This is done throw SEX! and procration, the standed rule is like you say they proliferate. But! thats Darwin talking about inderviduls organism. Darwin had no idear there was any thing other than trates in off spring clasic Darwinian natural selection.

 

That's basically where you're coming from, but then you talk about genes in terms of Darwinian natural selection. From the 1930's and the discovery of DNA and GENES has meant that we know how this is done and we find that GENES are sutiler than just the SEX winner talks all. Seems they hide sins of that past just in case they may be of use meny generations later. That can make members of a family group act as hive organisms sacrificing there own chance to procreate to enables a close relative to. They jump ship from organism to organism. And there's the big one between 50% to 75% of our DNA is so we are told Junk DNA, Its dos not seem to do stuff.

 

This is the revised version of Evolutionary theory espoused buy Richard Dawkins and other luminaries in the area.

 

Now we are talking about one organism, with a brain that's abele to comprehend some of Evolutionary theory stating that it would removes its DNA from the GENE pool so as to make it better.

 

This I believe is wrong on two counts.

 

1: If you think that, as you do, thaws GENES that do not procreate are bad genes. Then if some one kills them selfs saying "I HAVE BAD GENES" thus stopping them selfs from Procreating. It becomes a self forfilling profiscey. You prove your self right by doing that which you believe will prove yourself right. The trubal is if you do not kill yourself are your genes good, what if you procrate and then your child kills them selfs. Are your genes still at falt or once you have a child you wash your hands of the hole Good bad Genes thing. The problem with saying My genes are bad is you can only prove it by MAKING THEM BAD with an act not being or not Procrating.

 

2: The newer view of Evolutionary theory says that your genes will have an impact for generations to come. Like I said befor only at the end of time can you see there full inpact so saying your GENES are bad now is wrong as you can not prove that.

 

I'm with you but only so fare as moden Evolutionary theory gos.

 

On the face of it we are saying the same thing but in truth we are not, Your saying Yes you can remove your own bad genes, (and inso doing prove them bad) what Im saying is you befor the act of self ending know if for a fact your genes are good or bad, even more so now with a hole raft of new Evolutionary theory emendments.

 

I hope you can see my point

 

Thanks

[Eto]

I actually wrote a large thread on suicide and natural selection in a different forum about a ear ago. It seems insane that another person was thinking the same thing. Wrote it not long after my little sister commited suicide and I started getting depressed like her.

 

I do think RedQueen is right though, that people who are intelligent enough to think like this are probably better off procreating than many other people. It is easier for someone like you Eto to find happiness than for someone who is happy but not bright to find intelligence.

 

I'm glad to see that others ponder some of the things that come to my mind. I agree that I have many traits that would benefit the gene pool however, I have many that I wouldn't wish upon my enemies.

I know this may be a touchy subject but I firmly believe that eugenics are mankinds' only hope. While selective breeding and genetic "cleansing" obviously won't happen in a free society, genetic engineering could. Hopefully in my lifetime will come the day when we can "program" our children before they're born. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable bringing a child into this world that ran a risk of developing the mental diseases that I've been "blessed" with.

But then again, if it wasn't for the periods of insanity that I go through, I don't think I'd question as much as I do.

[melrich]

Yeah. That's what i am praying for, a world where everyone is exactly like me. Oh happy days.......

[Dako]

I know guy who spent some time in Buchenwald with his twin brother awaiting the arrival of Dr. Mengele to help advance human genetics.

I'll take chaos over that sort of fun.

[Spugly Fuglet]

I'm glad to see that others ponder some of the things that come to my mind. I agree that I have many traits that would benefit the gene pool however, I have many that I wouldn't wish upon my enemies.

I know this may be a touchy subject but I firmly believe that eugenics are mankinds' only hope. While selective breeding and genetic "cleansing" obviously won't happen in a free society, genetic engineering could. Hopefully in my lifetime will come the day when we can "program" our children before they're born. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable bringing a child into this world that ran a risk of developing the mental diseases that I've been "blessed" with.

But then again, if it wasn't for the periods of insanity that I go through, I don't think I'd question as much as I do.

 

arrr eugenics, makes me think of how the idear of Giya was taken from pure science turned into a fireytail buy a munch of ideat hippys saying the earth is a conshus been who controlled us all and we are killing it "poor thing". They never read the papers they just when a head and made it all up. Now the nazis "oboy" did they ever make up farytails

all that face history about the gemanic race, and the reinterpretail of evaluationery thiory just so they can carry out genacide all to clean there race.

 

I have dyslexia as do all the male side of our family on my farthers side. I and they would all have been dead becouse of eugenics. Do you think I should be as I have the dyslexia bad genes?

 

I have had long talks with a freand of mine who has dwarfisem, he hates the idear of DNA screaning as hos his wife. He has a grate job in the film biz and dos not see his size aas a broblem but as a gift. As do I, Enstine, Di Vinchi, and many many other grate minds have had dyslexia. I feel sorry for thows that don't becouse I think in 3D not letters and sounds. My conative mind map has to me and like 1/4 of thows working in CG vfx its a real help.

 

so we are back to my point, you don't know what bad genes are, how can you, you don't know what inpact they will have in combation with later genaration. You can not say will I feel bad so my genes are bad, genes in thems selfs don't have feelings, Its like saying this blueprint is feeling happy, or this map is lost.

 

If you have a problem some of who you are, start looking at it as a gift not a bane. Some of your DNA is there to pre-programe you to this, they are there trying to make you save them, why are you fighting them?

 

Me I like being just the way I am and theres a very good chance if I have a boy with my wife he will have dyslxica to.

But ill be there to help him and show him that its good thing as well as bad.

 

If you kill your self becouse you think you have bad DNA then your are making a very aregent mistake, your kids would tell you if you let them.

 

"TRUTH STRENGTH AND HONNOR"

 

spugly, with a broken mind but happy

[melrich]

spugly, with a broken mind but happy

 

Viva la difference. Well said mate.

[Proactive Paradigm]

It isn't cowardly. If it took an act of cowardice to finish things, you'd have a lot more broken down hope-robbed individuals suddenly disappearing than you do. Hell, I'd be with them.

[chemica]

If it took an act of cowardice to finish things, you'd have a lot more broken down hope-robbed individuals suddenly disappearing than you do.

 

Sadly...you might actually be right about this.

[TheRedQueen]

Mr. Fuglet,

 

On a molecular level, genes are genes are genes. whether you are a tree, a rotifer, an aphid, or a human being, you are only a product and vessel of genetic transmission. So in that sense, all genes are in competition with one another, none "good", none "bad", just are. But in terms of sexual selection within a particular species, depending on the current conditions of the environment, those perceived as attractive mates will be more likely to have sex, and thereforeeee procreate. thereforeeee those genes contained by the "attractive human" have been successful in their "desire" to proliferate. I don't know, I forgot my point and this is just a rant now, but if you are interested, you should look up why I chose the name theredqueen.

[Slacker]

If suicide were a natural process to cleanse the pool of unfavorable genetic material, wouldn't animals do it?

[Daddy Bear]

bull droppings!!! it takes more courage to face the pain of being a modern human than it does to tiptoe away from the world into eternal nothingness.

 

sorry, Slacker and TRQ... i wasn't responding to you.

[Spugly Fuglet]

Mr. Fuglet,.

 

I like that.

 

On a molecular level, genes are genes are genes. whether you are a tree, a rotifer, an aphid, or a human being, you are only a product and vessel of genetic transmission. So in that sense, all genes are in competition with one another, none "good", none "bad", just are.

 

Good at last see no bad genes, but my point still stands if you kill yourself saying your genes are bad thats a self furfilling prophesy.

 

But in terms of sexual selection within a particular species, depending on the current conditions of the environment, those perceived as attractive mates will be more likely to have sex, and thereforeeee procreate.

 

wooow there sex sulation yes but you can only sulect from the servivers of the current conditions of the environment. Some many miss this point, its

"Fitest" to survive 1st then have sex. other than that your right

 

thereforeeee those genes contained by the "attractive human" have been successful in their "desire" to proliferate.

 

Thats only as true if you add "attractive human you meet and have servied to adulthud"

 

you should look up why I chose the name theredqueen

 

I will where should I look.

 

My point is that genes also jump ship, throw pariseites.

See my post of are you a cat or dog person.

 

Thsi has been fun thanks for counter points.

 

Mr Spugly

[TheRedQueen]

I'm glad to see that others ponder some of the things that come to my mind. I agree that I have many traits that would benefit the gene pool however, I have many that I wouldn't wish upon my enemies.

I know this may be a touchy subject but I firmly believe that eugenics are mankinds' only hope. While selective breeding and genetic "cleansing" obviously won't happen in a free society, genetic engineering could. Hopefully in my lifetime will come the day when we can "program" our children before they're born. I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable bringing a child into this world that ran a risk of developing the mental diseases that I've been "blessed" with.

But then again, if it wasn't for the periods of insanity that I go through, I don't think I'd question as much as I do.

 

Eto

It bothers me that you "firmly believe that eugenics are mankinds' only hope", especially due to the fact that you had posted a swastika as your avatar several days ago . You've mentioned in your other thread that you have had sociopathic tendencies, and to be frank, that worries me more than your suicidal tendencies do.