Value of Life

[becallamjr]

I'm posting on here to hear what you people believe. I'm hoping to get some detailed answers to this post. I have a few topics to discuss.

 

The value of life and suicide:

 

As for suicide, I never have left that choice out and never will. Sometimes enough is enough, whether or not anyone else agrees with it. To the suicidal, if you honestly feel like you have to die and you have exhausted all other options, then do as you wish. If one of the points in this life is to pursue your own happiness, then why is suicide so bad? Suicide is a permanent solution to the problems that this disease brings. So ultimately, if happiness is to not suffer, then suicide makes perfect sense. I strongly believe that over time, we as a society have overvalued life. Life is only as precious as we want it to be. So knowing that why is life so valuable?

 

Suicide, selfish and cowardly?:

 

I think most people on this site know how I feel about suicide by now. I'm brutally honest about things. I don't give people the kind hearted, "oh it's gonna be ok" bs responses because I believe that they are useless. I believe suicidals are looking for guidance and understanding, rather than comfort. I believe by giving some guidance and understanding we give them that comfort.

 

I have seen so many people post on this forum that suicide is selfish and cowardly. I would like to state that when you hit rock bottom, it is not about being selfish or cowardly, it is about ending the pain. I do agree that getting help should be your first option, but if help doesn't help, then what's left? If your absolutely miserable, does it really matter how anyone else feels?

 

Cowardly? I would love someone to explain to me why suicide is so cowardly? Everyone in this life is completely different. We feel emotion, but everyone feels in a different way. Our tolerance for pain, all pain, varies in each individual. So what gives anyone the right to to call someone cowardly because their tolerance just ran out? You don't have the right!

 

Depression Types and Bipolar disease:

 

This is always an interesting topic. There are more types of depression out there than I can count. I suffer from Bipolar. Extreme Highs and Extreme Lows. It sucks. I manage though. Yet again I am amazed at those people that jump into the suicide forum and begin giving uneducated advice to those who are in dying need. Honestly, unless you suffer from a clinical depression, how can you honestly say you understand what is going on? Do not get me wrong, I understand that pain is relatable, but we as individuals are completely different people that experience pain on a different level. Especially those who have a clinical depression. For example: Let's say your grandma died, you are depressed because your grandma died, now you believe you know what depression is? Not even close, you see those who suffer from a clinical depression feel the way you did when your grandma died for no apparent reason and you can multiply that pain by 100.

 

You know, I especially pity the ignorant. The one's who think they are helping someone by telling them "dont be stupid", "you have so much to live for", "happiness is a choice", "do you know how many people say this crap believing it helps? It doesn't, it just frustrates and causes more problems as I am sure they have heard something to that effect from everyone else.

 

In closing, if I offended anyone, I'm sorry, but this is my opinion and I'm seeking others opinions on this site.

 

Anyone who is thinking about suicide right now, feel free to PM me, I understand what you are feeling. I'm willing to listen or give some advice if you are seeking any.

[Dako]

Very well put!

I also feel suicide is an option. We should be able to opt out if the pain is too great. Often crusaders against it claim modern medicine can make life bearable for anyone, so there's no need to bail out. Someone else's pain is impossible to feel, so how do they know? Educational credentials? A holy book?

Don't think I'm an advocate of suicide booths at the mall. I just try to see each person as a unique individual with a right to control their own destiny. Granted, it's not that simple since others are involved, and the person could be jumping to a rash conclusion based on faulty info, such as signals within their own head.

Many of the people who post here looking for help are clinically depressed or struggling with life's disappointments. It comes on so gradually or so profoundly they don't realize their brain lies to them about their life. When I respond to them, I truly want them to get help and find at least enough joy to balance the misery. That's all it takes to keep me from being mired in the mud, and I hope it's so for others.

Often someone who found religion, accupuncture or other tool useful will wave it as a panacea without even asking the OP a single question, such as their age, circumstances or history. When someone is in pain, they deserve to be listened to.

I have strong opinions on this subject, and hope I don't offend.

When a person is depressed enough to want death, they need help with living, not horrid descriptions of death, even more guilt or mockery. At that point, they don't care about going to hell or heaven or being reincarnated as a squirrel. They're a hurting unit.

They need a hand to live.

 

I've been in that state, and each time it took something different to pull me out. Some things weren't really healthy, legal or ethical but they worked. Today I'm doing very well but have my moments. Mostly it's a matter of making the right choices and managing my internal dialog, with a small dose of SRI every day. Nobody seems to know.

[Beyondthesea]

I don't think I'm offended, just sort of shocked. I don't really enjoy reading your posts because they are always 'pro suicide' but somehow I always do anyway because I'm interested in what you have to say.

 

I think for the most part, people who are suicidal come here looking for alternatives, a place to vent, and a few friends. Every time I read your posts, I think "this guy isn't saying there are alternatives, he's saying go buy the knife."

 

I agree people have different tolerances to pain. Myself? I've been abused my whole life by school mates, family, friends & boyfriends. I struggled through my life suicidal a great deal of the time, being physically & emotionally beaten most of it. I couldn't do school, I couldn't do the things I loved, I couldn't afford to do any of the other things I wanted, and I had no friends and my family obviously didn't understand.

 

No one supported me, no one pulled me through...but me. In the end, my situation depended entirely upon my perception of it, and what I was willing to do with it.

 

I've taken the pills for depression, gone to counseling, been part of support groups...and the only thing that ever pulled me through was me. That is why I believe that if you are suicidal, there are other ways out.

 

Life is always only a test, a pop quiz. Something happens and we have to learn to deal with it the best way we can. If we fail, there'll be another test in a month or so. How you choose to deal with your tests is completely up to you. There is always a solution to every problem.

 

In our life contract, no one ever chooses "death by suicide" I don't think. We all sign saying we'll do our best and get through the best way we can. We may be shaky, but we should pull through as best as we can.

 

Something that always pulled me through was thinking of all the people dying that would do anything to live the life I thought was so pitiful and hard. How they would love to face the challenges, go through the problems, and suffer the way I was. They would gladly go through it all to have one more day on Earth, enjoying the beauty, the fun, the excitement and the peace in still moments.

 

I encourage anyone who is considering suicide to look within themselves, think through your problems, and face them. Are you depressed? See a counselor! Don't like that counselor? Find another one. Don't have money? Find a job, go on support, or volunteer for some experience.

 

True that life is only as valuable as you think it is. Why not change your situation and your perception? A fresh look at things can rejuvinate the soul and move you forward from a place where you are obviously stagnant. No one who is in 'constant motion' in life is suicidal.

 

Overall, my idea is that there is always a way out besides ending it. Why do people say suicide is cowardly? Because it's a shortcut, a way out that involves no problem solving or work. It's a permanent answer to temporary problems in life.

 

Good luck in dealing with your struggles! And when you are truly in mental pain and anguish, walk. Walk through the park, walk through the mall, sit in the outdoors and read a book. Nature always revives the spirit.

[Mrocza]

I disagree.

 

While suicide is an option, it's not the best option.

 

Many people can sympathize with feelings of depression and restlessness in life...with the feeling of over whelming saddness and lack of motivation in life. No one can truley empathize...even if we're diagnosed with the same things, or going through the same losses, no one is going through what you are.

 

Suicide may not be a selfish option for the individual himself because he is "ending his pain" but there are many other alternatives to end pain with other actions. The "selfish" part of the alternative is by their deaths affecting others...but many can argue that as well. Isn't being depressed or in that state of mind directly affecting others as well?

 

I believe the true problem is strength. Some people have it in them to pull themselves out. Some people will never be able to overcome the feats in their lives. Other people will try hard and be content with what life has to offer them. The rest will opt for suicide.

 

In the end, it's their choice. If a person sincerely feels that their life is worthless, who are we to state otherwise? The world is different from everyone's perspective. We cannot change the way they think unless they let us have an influence or impact...Some people, despite having it drawn out in crayons, choose their own paths.

 

It's a tricky situation.

 

Controversial but in the end, I think it is a personal choice.

 

I believe people who truley opt for suicide have no hope. If they can't see the beauty, the light in the world, the chance or hope for something more...who are we to tell them otherwise?

 

Is it cowardly? Well, no. It's just weak. But some people get tired from struggling to fight. It's understandable. But giving up...well, if this is giving up, is it really worth it to stop fighting? Haven't we all experienced hopelessless....AND happiness, joy, excitement...?

 

I think all of the people on these boards, coming out to share their feelings, their wants of suicide, are here for a reason. It's a cry for help. They want to be saved. It's their hidden message behind the post that needs to be addressed. They want to be stopped, proven wrong.

 

Only by acting on it, can THEY change their situation. Only with initiative and motivation, can they begin to make a difference for themselves. Some people can do it, some people don't want to.

 

And that's what it comes down to. How bad do you want to live?

[volution]

There is a good book that I have been reading recently, entitled "Man's Search for Meaning" - it is by a doctor/psychologist called Viktor Frankl who was held prisoner in a notorious concentration camp.

He developed an entirely new branch of psychology called 'Logotherapy', which deals with people who are severely depressed, or considering suicide.

He often asked people "Why don't you just commit suicide?" - it is a radical way of thinking, even now. But it can shock people into thinking about their life in new ways, to find meaning and value even in the smallest ways...

 

This is a fantastic book, which is not just an account of psychology, but a genuinely inspiring tale of the human spirit, which can shine through even in the most difficult of situations.

I recommend this book to everyone, especially those that have stared into that dark abyss...

[Mrocza]

No one supported me, no one pulled me through...but me. In the end, my situation depended entirely upon my perception of it, and what I was willing to do with it.

 

I've taken the pills for depression, gone to counseling, been part of support groups...and the only thing that ever pulled me through was me. That is why I believe that if you are suicidal, there are other ways out.

 

Life is always only a test, a pop quiz. Something happens and we have to learn to deal with it the best way we can. If we fail, there'll be another test in a month or so. How you choose to deal with your tests is completely up to you. There is always a solution to every problem.

 

 

"Life is the worst teacher. It gives the test before presenting the lesson"

 

I totally agree.

 

Yes, we are alone...but that's not a bad thing. In life, we can always count on ourselves. Sometimes giving yourself some time and special treatment, doing things for you only, you realize that you have more in you that you bargained for. Sometimes we take us for granted and don't even realize our full potential. Give yourself a chance!

 

Have you ever had to do something really hard? Whether it was a BIG assignment or project, or help out a friend, or overcome a huge feat. How did you feel when you had it all before you and you didn;t know how to go about doing it? Lost...Hopeless...Unmotivated...Like giving up?

 

How did you feel when you finally did it...whether you were forced to, or finally buckled down to do it yourself because you had to...When you accomplished what you thought was impossible, how good did you feel about yourself? Awesome. You've got all the fight, all the power, strength, intelligence, within you. Just sometimes, it gets lost in the clutter. You forget how to solve the problem, how to read the manual...

 

"Practice makes perfect"

[becallamjr]

So far some great responses. A big thanks to the people who have posted already. Anyone else?

[Dako]

Beyond,

Thanks for your thoughtful post. I hope more people chime in with similar considerations. I'd imagine we're al in the same page about professional help, lifestyle changes and personal effort.

 

Bill's posts are dfferent, I grant you that.

At first, his tough love approach seemed a bit cold, but he really seems sincere about helping people. The fact that he doesn't react with disgust at the concept of suicide gives him credibilty. Maybe it's just my point of view, but one problem with discussing these urges is a fear of beng seen as a freak. An open and honest dialog can be a breakthrough.

Delaying the desparate act until after medical treatment puts it on the back burner until it loses its appeal.

 

I also use walking as a coping method, among other things.

[RayKay]

I would post another novel, but I think Beyondthesea summed up nicely what I would say, along with fairie16! I will add some more anyway though.

 

I too have faced many struggles, depression, eating disorders, and so forth, but ultimately the choice to live was the best one I could have ever done. And of course, it took tremendous work, but I cannot even imagine how sad it would be to not be living the life I am now. I have friends that committed suicide years ago, and I only feel so sad they never lived to see the light....that high school is not your life forever, that there is always another way. To see how their families were crushed by it, how some of them even split up over the pain that came from it. To see their siblings living without the person they loved so deeply and looked up to.

 

Live is not perfect, it never will be. It is however a process, a journey. You are not your mistakes, and you are not your depression. You have a choice to live it, a choice to seek help. So often I see people say they are depressed, but don't want to seek help as they are ashamed or think they can do it on their own....yet they will think of suicide. How is that a better option? It is selfish in the sense in the damage it inflicts also on those left behind. My late boyfriend's 10 year old cousin came home one day from school to find her 13 year old sister had hung herself. That child was never the same after seeing that. That 13 year old stopped her life so short....because of the same reasons many teens are depressed and hormonal....I bet in time, if she lived, she would of looked back on those years as her times of teen angst, and not worth dying over.

 

I had a boyfriend of mine die two weeks shy of his 26th birthday, of something he could not control. He wanted to be here in this life so badly, he loved life, he loved the opportunities it had for him, he made the most of it. He had no choice in the end, and part of his legacy that he gave me was as long as I have a choice, I am going to choose to fight to live. I have not been suicidal in years, however this applies also to living life to the fullest, to being prepared when I am ever ill to fight. I watch my mother now battling breast cancer and SHE so much wants to live, be there for her kids....life is a blessing, that can be taken away without our choice, so live it to the fullest while you can.

 

I cannot stop someone from making that choice if they want to, and it's not my right too. But I will always say that there is much more in life worth living for, then dying for....but it is up to you to find it, see it, be open to it.

[Bethany]

I am totally against suicide. It should never be an option. Depression is not a disease, Parkinson's disease or cancer of the brain is a disease. Depression an illness brought on by emotional and mental fatigue and it can be managed and definitely overcome by acceptance by the depressed person that they ARE ill and that they need help and that it's their own fears and their own mind and mental and emotional fatigue which brought on this depression.Also stress can play a major factor resulting in Nervous/Mental Breakdown where they 'run away' from their problems instead of facing them head on. Problems should be faced and dealt with and is not a weakness to ask for help, but it a strength.

 

Clinically depressed people are not looking for a way out of life, they are looking for a way out of their depression and it's why I do not offer a 'there, there it will be ok' or "ok then, if you think it's too much, go ahead and do it'. It's not what people who are clinically depressed are looking for. They don't want to be patronised, they want a way out, they do not want you to agree with them, they want good practical advise on getting out because they have been searching a way out but cannot find it. They do not understand that it is their own thoughts and emotions that keep them there and by facing their fears and emotions and understanding that negative thoughts and emotional pain that comes with these thoughts that trap them in a vicious downhill spiral of despair and hopelessness. It can be managed and overcome and that's why I am totally against suicide.

[becallamjr]

Still a few more peeps that I hope to see reply to this thread.

[chrishaney]

Suicide is not the correct option in my opinion. It may seem like a way to get away from problems but I don't think that's the case. I look at it from more of a spiritual perspective, one that not everyone cares to read about so I won't post it here. Hit the link in my sig if you want to read my thoughts on suicide. The correct medication can help. Support from family and friends, this forum, or whatever you have can really help. You are not alone in this...not even close.

[keenan]

I also believe that suicide is an option. This sounds a little weird, but the best thing about being alive, in my opinion, is that each individual 'person' exists inside one individual body, and that within the confines of that body, a person has almost complete autonomy. Within reason, I can eat, sleep, walk, run, play, read, work, laugh, cry, stay in bed, get up and dance, or sit and stare at a wall whenever I want to. That seems trivial, but I don't think it is. We're like individual 'pods' and we're our own command centers. Ultimately, I can do whatever I please, so long as it doesn't hurt others. I love that. With that autonomy comes the option to shut it down--to terminate.

 

Having said that, I don't ever want to commit suicide, nor would I openly advocate anyone else doing it. This isn't so much for the suicidal person as it is for the people s/he's connected to. With the autonomy I describe above comes a certain degree of responsibility. While we may be individual pods, in reality we're all connected to each other in a great big sticky web. Ultimately, we're solo. However, if we can manage it, I think it makes for a much better society that we love and respect and care for one another as much as possible.

 

I may be biased: I've had people very, very close to me commit suicide, and really...the pain has almost killed me. It's taken me 5 years to get to the point of being able to talk about suicide without feeling intense sadness and fury.

 

The other thing that bothers me about the self-termination route is that the option is usually taken when the individual in question is most vulnerable. On any given day, a person entertaining thoughts of suicide will bounce above and below that magical 'threshold' of wanting to live. Most people spend the vast majority of time hovering well above this line. During prolonged periods of sadness induced by divorce, illness, joblessness, or death of a loved one (and so on), we drop down to that line and bounce around it.

 

I find it alarming that the people I've known who exercise the suicide option were clearly hovering around the line, but killed themselves at a MOMENT when they were below it. If anything had been different that day--lunch with a friend, a nice conversation, an unexpected pleasant event--they might have bounced above the threshold, and over time, returned to their normal steady-state.

 

So, I guess that's a really long-winded way of saying that unless you continually hover below the threshold of wanting to live, you should try to stick it out, both for yourself as much as you can (to the extent that you feel life is ultimately wonderful and fun and worth fighting for), and for others (to the extent that you recognize and respect the bonds that you've formed during the years you've been alive). Otherwise, the choice is yours to make.

[AntiLove_SuperStar]

Sometimes, it really *isnt* going to get any better...Im pro choice on this one.

[Northern Raccoon]

Life is pointless if you have no perposs. Life is meaningless if you serve no perpos.

[Dako]

The thought of suicide can be used as a positve tool.

Having the option of leaving can give a sense of control over one's life that allows you to try to make life work. A fallback postion or Plan B that lets you focus on Plan A without fear.

Sounds weird, but we all cope in different ways.

[keenan]

Having the option of leaving can give a sense of control over one's life that allows you to try to make life work. A fallback postion or Plan B that lets you focus on Plan A without fear.

Sounds weird, but we all cope in different ways.

 

Oh yeah--perfect!! I hadn't thought of it that way, but it hits me just exactly right. There's nothing worse than doing something that we're forced to do. No matter what the task, knowing that we can legitimately walk away at any time makes the decision to stay (and the task itself) much more manageable and enjoyable. I guess that includes living.

[coppergold]

I was just reading past threads, and I totally agree, suicide is like a plan b , that was put really well and only people who suffer from PROPER depression can understand. I see nothing wrong with suicide thats because nothing is wrong with it.

[Bethany]

I see nothing wrong with suicide thats because nothing is wrong with it.

 

I'm sorry to pick out your specific words but I have to disagree. It is not only criminally wrong, it is also morally wrong. But more than that, it's wrong to pass the pain onto others because 'you' didn't seek help to get you through a bad time in your life. It is wrong because you couldn't see that all you have to do is go to the doctors and get help, which is the right way out because then there will be no need to even consider suicide, would there?

 

Also, if it is right, then how come that everyone in your immediate family would feel such pain at your loss that they themselves find that they have now become YOU?

Through no fault of their own and because you did not seek help, they are then left behind to carry the horrendous pain and grief for the rest of their lives, they then live with the unimaginable horror of the image of seeing their 'baby' lying in a coffin in their minds until they die, they would then feel like they need to leave this world because they cannot cope with their grief, loss and pain,the very pain that you escaped from instead of seeking help, and all because you didn't think that it was wrong and didn't bother to seek help when you needed it most? I don't think that's right.

[coppergold]

Well if there family they would want the best for their child. And if the child wants to be dead, they should want that to.

[Dako]

Depends on why their child wants to die. If it's because the kid is too embarrassed to seek help for depression, that'd be a shame. Some people would rather die than admit they have a health problem.

It would make as much sense as ending it so you can avoid public speaking or some other stressful situation.

 

Not a good thing.

[coppergold]

so you are saying dako that it can be a good thing???

[Dako]

I've never killed myself, so I don't know how good it is.

I keep it in mind, but not to escape treatable depression or life's disappointments. I'm not anti-suicide, but find it the wrong answer for most problems.

It looked pretty good to me when I was about your age, but since then I've learned how to deal with those feelings without hurting my friends and family. Up until my wife left me, I had it under control but had a few months where I could've ended it.

Today there's no way I want to leave. There's too much to do and enjoy.

 

Bethany has it right. Hurting your family is a cruel act. I always considered hurting innocent people dishonorable, and that helped me get along through life. We all find our own ways to cope.

[Bethany]

If MY child wanted to be dead, I would understand that they were going through a bad time and support them, encourage them to talk to me, confide in me and I would fix the problems whatever they were, how ever bad they were, and still love them whatever they did because thats what mothers do.

 

But, If MY child did not talk to me, I would feel somehow to blame and carry that guilt around with me, AS WELL AS with the pain and grief that they gave me for the rest of my life. Other people would shun me in the street for being a bad mother even though I was not to blame as they wouldn't see it that way an they would think it was my fault, I would then withdraw from life, be afraid to go out and even consider suicide myself or at very least end up in a mental hospital.

No joke.

[coppergold]

well what if the child felt completely isolated from everyone, and that there parents don't understand them, they still get them the same toys for there birthday. Toys for fook sake. And what if that the child has seen how they feel with suicde and self harm by telling them about "friends". And they said they have to be messed up to hurt urself and want to die. but then what if there school was gonna tell them, and what if the child thinks crap, everyone is gonna be depressed now. and thinks after the school tells them what if the child thinks i can't live through this aswll as the pain. Then is suicide still a bad thing????????