"Chemical" Romance

[mtastic]

Ok, i'm not sure where to post this exactly, so Admins/Mods feel free to move it to a more appropriate forum. Anyway, while I was snowed in over the past weekend, i caught a movie on Sundance channel called "Dopamine." Now it wasn't a particularly great movie, but it raised some interesting points. The main character of the story basically believes that attraction and love are purely chemical: everyone gives off pheremones (an airborne mix of chemicals unique an individuals) which others picke up via their sense of smell, although they are odorless in the sense that we do not notice any change in scent, it works on a more subliminal level. Based on this, the theory was that attraction is simply when one finds someone whose pheremones produce the appropriately positive reactions with our own body chemistry, leading to our bodies to increase production of the chemicals testoserone/estrogen (depending on gender), which heighten the boy's sexual im pulses and lead to "lust" sensations, and the release of brian chemicals such as dopamine (hence the film's title), which are the brian chemicals which have been linked with the production of euphoric states, such as the joy we feel when experiencing love.

 

Now, i'll admit thats a very simplifed version of the chemistry involved, but it does raise the question: is love simply all a matter of brain chemistry, going back down the chain of our evolutionary ancestors, making our mate selection not all that different from penguins, cows or monkeys? Or are there other forces at work such as fate, cupids arrow/will of the gods, or love being some force unto itself? As an idealist i want to believe the latter, that other forces are at work, but as a science oriented person, i'm inclined to lean toward the former, that attraction is the product of complex neurochemistry resulting is a physical reaction. Now attraction is not entirely pheremones, its also a matter of psycological conditioning, meaning that our bodies have been trained by our personal experiences with society to produce the necessery reactions when we see someone who conforms to our personal/societal ideas of beauty and attractivenesss. But that psychological reaction basically leads us back to chemistry once again. I know, it kind of takes the fun out of it, but as a professor of mine recently said "Science does that sometime."

 

I'm not out to offend anyone's sensibilities here, i just think this would be an interesting topic for discussion, and I'd be interested to hear other people's views on the subject.

 

Mtastic

[johnagent1911]

I think attraction is chemical based and why wouldn't it be?

[annie24]

From personal experience, if I don't like the way a guy smells, I can't have a relationship with him. I don't mean sweat or whatever, I mean the guy's natural scent. I used to think I was weird until I read about this in Scientific American a few years back:

 

There were several studies done. If a woman doesn't like a man's scent, there is almost 0% chance of the relationship lasting. The theory is that if a woman doesn't like a man's scent, it's because their genes are too similar. Since we need genetic variation, people who have different genes "smell better" to us.

 

This was tested in birds. The researchers took baby chicks and separated them soon after birth, later, they reunited lots of chicks from lots of different parents. The brothers and sisters wouldn't mate. They just knew that they were related or their genes were too similar, most likely by scent.

 

So, that's my response. I think that this is an interesting topic!

[sonjam]

here's a question. Why then, if it is chemical, could a female/male sometimes fall in love with somoene, call it chemical reaction, smell, whatever, and find them totally uninterested, even though they are not involved or comitted elsewhere? Could this chemical reaction be one sided, or is this fate/higher powers at work??

[mtastic]

Interesting replies,

 

johnagent911: Why wouldn't it be? Thats sort of why I posted, I was interested to see other people's opinions on the subject, and thier arguments as to weiter or not love and attraction were purely chemical. It raises some interesting questions, if you take it even further, you get down to the nature of consciousness itself: are consciousness, awareness, will, action, etc. just a seires of electro-chemical processes running some what mechanically in responce to internal and external stimuli, or is there a separate soul which is some kind of manifestation of consciousness? i guess thats what i'm really getting at with the post, but at first i thought that was pretty broad for a topic, so i just stuck to attraction, which i know there is some experimental evidence of.

 

Annie24: Yeah, what your talking about sounds like a kind of pheremone reaction like I was talking about. Thats interesting though, I didn't know about using them to determine genetic diversity, but that makes alot of sense now that you brought it up. Its just another one of those funky little devices eveolution has come up with to keep the whole thing going right i guess. I'm gonna try to look for that study online and see if I can find anything about it, if you have any other info on it that would be helpful.

 

Sonjam: Thats part of the reason i wanted to bring this up for discussion. I'd guess that the reactions can probobly go one way, as in someone's pheremones "do it" for you, but your's don't generate the same responce in them. I also think that attraction isn't purely based on pheremones, but that psycological conditioning has a great deal to do with it, as our experiences with those around us have shaped what qualities we desire in a mate/partner. i mean, when I think of a girl I'm interested in, I don't think "hey, check out the pheremones on her," although they may provide the initial attraction along with physical appearens (which also counts for alot of the psycological factor), the other non-physical qualities we have decided upon are also play a factor. Which leads me to my other question of why do we fall out of love? Is that the initial rush of stimulant chemicals wearing off? Do we build up a tolerance to those pheremones to the point where they no longer affet us? Or do the chemicals released due to psycolgical stimuli outweigh those genereated by the more physiological responce to the chemicals.

 

Ok, I'm clearly raising even more questions on this(even with myself as i write this). Keep it coming folks, I'd love to here more responces/opinions.

 

mtastic

[cooldude1234]

haha, if it's sense of smell or whatever then why can you can be attracted to people from seeing them in only a picture.

 

I don't believe attraction itself is chemical (i think it has a lot to do with instincts and social conditioning) but the quite obviously, the feelings you get ARE chemical.

[Driftin Spirit]

ok,ok, ok the chemical attraction is triggered by physical senses and the prodominient one is sight sometimes sound. When ya see someone that looks good it trigures a hormonal response through sensory binding in the brain. This causes a release of chemicals which trigger the release of sex hormones causing the above feelings of lust. But this is not attraction this is primal urges... Attraction is a purely mental state which is controlled by the brains memory of the person and perception of them. As for the study into using birds there is no way of telling who ur ciblings are through scent. Chromosomes and genes have no smell that is just crap the only way to detect similar genes and chromosome bands is by using a DNA probe or DNA polymerase then placing it in gel and passing electric current through.

[annie24]

As for the study into using birds there is no way of telling who ur ciblings are through scent. Chromosomes and genes have no smell that is just crap the only way to detect similar genes and chromosome bands is by using a DNA probe or DNA polymerase then placing it in gel and passing electric current through.

 

I'm in grad school, and I'm a few years away from getting my PhD in biochemistry. True, DNA itself may not have a scent, but the gene products (proteins) do. The study is real, I'm trying to find it right now. When I find it, I'll post the link.

 

More recently, researchers have been considering using dogs to sniff out cancer. Dogs have noses at least 400x more sensitive than ours. There's been some preliminary work in this field.

[annie24]

One of the mechanisms of kin recognition proposed in this article is scent. If animals kept mating with their brothers and sisters (even cousins), things would be pretty messed up!

[sweetharmony]

I am a Discover magazine junkie and I have to agree that from a number of article I've read, chemistry b/w people has a lot to do with the chemistry of your brain.

 

I'm not going to repeat the info already presented about pheromone attraction. one thing to note is that the pheromone power only lasts b/w 6-18 months. once that wears off, the chemistry b/w two people is not so high. it reaches a plateau. that's why a lot of people "fall out of love." the high you get when you are first dating someone is like a drug, as dopamine is released. basically, falling in love is like taking a drug, it produces the same checmial reaction int he brain, albeit a little different.

 

however, why do humans stay together, when we are non-monogamous animals? researchers realized that the hormone oxytocin, is the bonding chemical, one that is released during significant moments and adheres memories and feelings. when a mother gives birth, oxytocin is released and also duirng intercourse. this is a feel good hormone and is not the high like dopamine, but just a feeling of comfort and satiation. this idea is still speculative, though.

 

 

hormones in the body regulate all types of feelings. i read another article that noted male armpit sweat can reduce anxiety in a female. my ex and I used to joke about that- can you imagine?

 

also, people are typically attracted to individuals whose immune systems are different then their own. this choice ensures that their children would have a combination- the best of both worlds- survival of the fittest.

 

it's interesting to study body chemistry and why people are attracted physically and chemically- through pheromones.

 

i alos think that a couple can develop love through bonding- the oxytocin and never have the exciting love. is this better, perhaps. perhaps you can develop that as well. there's so much to think about and I LOVE THIS TOPIC. thanks for bringing it up. it's something I ponder often.

[mtastic]

Ok guys, sorry its been a few days, i've been really busy.

 

Cooldude and Driftin Spirit, I agree, its not just pheremones, i think its predominantly pscyology that sparks the very initial attraction, as we base attraction on what are personal experiences have told us we think is attractive, meaning what we've learned from societal values and the people we have developed an attraction to in the past. i do thionk pheremones still play a part in the decision making, and i think it partially accounts for the difference between talking to a potential partner on the phone or online, where the emphasis is exclusively on personalities, and meeting in person. For example, i met a girl online over the summer and we had a series of great IM and phone conversations, as well as exchanging photos and finding her physically attractive. However when we met up in person, "it" just wasn't there, like it felt something was missing. Perhaps that missing ingredient was the pheremonal attraction we get when around some people. Granted it could have been something else entirely, but going into it I did feel attracted to her.

 

Annie24: Thanks for the article info, and a bio-chem PhD candidate! Even better than the level of interes i hoped would join the conversation. I'd think that since psychology all seems to (excuse the pun) boil down to brain chemistry, it would be possible to to some how control attraction as well (not that this is in any respect a good idea). As the medical field has found ways to either replicate a certian neurotransmitter, or at least regulate its level within the nervous system, obviously dopamine is one such chemical, as there are a number of drugs which can either reproduce or stimulate its affects, which gets back to the saying that "love is a drug," but perhaps the controled release of a more powerful chemical, such as the oxytocin hormone sweetharmony mentioned, could lead to the false association of feelings with events in a relationship, almost leading to a "false" comittment. Alright, I getting ahead of myself and its starting to feel kind of far fetched at this point, but its food for thought anyway.

 

Sweetharmony: I pretty much covered the first half of your post already. Arm pit sweat relaxing? Perhaps i'll light up the deoderant next time i know i'll be around alot of women. J/k . I agree that a couple could develop the bonding love without the exciting rush love, i think thats at least partially what happens when people be come attracted to close friends, its not usually because one day you realize "my friend is so hot, how did i not see that before," although i suppose that does happenb once in a wihle, its more because you realize all the good things you associate with that person.

 

There is so much to think about with all of this. keep it coming folks!

mtastic