So if nice guys finish last...

[NorthDallas40]

in parts of the world where there is a surplus of beautiful women and only a handful of men (yes, they exist, i am in one of those places)

 

GPS coordinates please!

[Moontiger]

Another thought:

 

Generally, women don't want to waste time. So while a guy will start dating someone because they are "nice" and "attractive" only to bail three months later when they learn things they don't like, women try to avoid this. They look at the whole package from the very start, think about what things will be like down the road, and determine if its likely that time spent with this person is a good investment.

[Blue Spiral]

I have pulse and won't beat you = I deserve an attractive woman who will have sex with me.

 

That is entitlement.

 

"I have a vagina and will acknowledge your existence" = "I deserve attractive, successful, confident men that will pay attention to me, pay for my meals, pursue me, be a manly man and a sensitive man at the same time, and give me a large pool from which I can pick my future husband/father of my children."

 

That is not entitlement. Gotcha.

[Blue Spiral]

So BlueSpiral - I totally get what you're saying, but you're totally wrong. Men DO feel entitled when dating, as do women. I want a goodlooking, nice, intelligent, sex-positive woman who would make a great mother... and you want a goodlooking, nice, sex-positive woman who is ok with an open relationship. Just those traits alone are quite a hefty checklist!

 

We aren't like most guys, though. You've successfully pursued a number of women, and you tend to ditch them for Jerry-Seinfeld-esque minor reasons--most guys aren't like that. And most guys aren't like me in terms of monogamy. But "relationship mode" me had very, very minor expectations, and I've found most guys to be like that.

[NorthDallas40]

We aren't like most guys, though. You've successfully pursued a number of women, and you tend to ditch them for Jerry-Seinfeld-esque minor reasons--most guys aren't like that. And most guys aren't like me in terms of monogamy. But "relationship mode" me had very, very minor expectations, and I've found most guys to be like that.

 

Well as I mentioned in the post you quoted, "Men DO feel entitled when dating, as do women."

 

You just seem to think that men's checklists are incredibly short compared to women's; but I disagree.

[Slimpee]

Not to be a jerk, but what's the point of these threads? For the sake of brevity, here's a summary of all of them:

 

-Women say they want a nice guy but they really just like jerks and guys with money

-Some women do like jerks, but mostly, they just want a guy with confidence.

-(I have a friend/brother/uncle/nephew/boss/neighbor/milkman/homeless guy down the street who is ugly as all sin, has no money, and lives in a van down by the river but he picks up gorgeous 22-yr-olds like crazy)

 

-Women have it easy because they have their choice of many guys so they only go for the "high-status" guys.

-Well, men only want the model types

 

It's a rodeo circle of ridiculousness

[NorthDallas40]

I have a friend/brother/uncle/nephew/boss/neighbor/milkman/homeless guy down the street who is ugly as all sin, has no money, and lives in a van down by the river but he picks up gorgeous 22-yr-olds like crazy

 

Let us know the date & location of their next seminar

[Blue Spiral]

Well as I mentioned in the post you quoted, "Men DO feel entitled when dating, as do women."

 

You just seem to think that men's checklists are incredibly short compared to women's; but I disagree.

 

And, as I said, I've never seen much evidence that men are demanding in terms of personality/ambition--aside from you and a few other unusually-mature men (who definitely aren't representative of the average guy). We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

That said...if women sincerely believe that men care about that stuff, and they want to bet their childbearing years on it, more power to 'em.

[Moontiger]

Men can be fat, bald, poor, and generally horrible person and still find expect someone to date them.

 

Women have to about 1,200 different requirements for a man to even look at her with mild interest. These include but are not limited to:

 

Not overweight

Not to thin (must have nice rear and boobs)

Can't have to many sexual partners in the past

Has to have experience in the bedroom

Must do her hair, make-up and nails perfectly, every day.

Must know EXACTLY when to be quiet (god forbid the football game is interrupted)

Must not dress showing excessive skin.

Must not dress "dumpy"

Must not have over X amount of male friends

Must know how to cook/clean

Must be engaging in a conversation

Must let you go out whenever you want with friend regardless of her wants/needs/wishes

 

 

This "men have it so bad" line is such a load of bull. Which gender experience the most anxiety about their look to the point millions suffer from horrific disorders? Which gender experience the most sexual assault and shaming? Which gender is under represented in nearly every area of government and the work world? Which has to fight to keep the government out of their bodies?

 

Ya, being expect to (because of the oppression of women for hundreds if years and the continued training of girls in our society to be passive) pay for dinner is so much worse. I totally see you point.

 

Prime Example: Romeo Rose

[Mr_LFA]

Men can be fat, bald, poor, and generally horrible person and still find expect someone to date them.

 

Women have to about 1,200 different requirements for a man to even look at her with mild interest. These include but are not limited to:

 

Not overweight

Not to thin (must have nice rear and boobs)

Can't have to many sexual partners in the past

Has to have experience in the bedroom

Must do her hair, make-up and nails perfectly, every day.

Must know EXACTLY when to be quiet (god forbid the football game is interrupted)

Must not dress showing excessive skin.

Must not dress "dumpy"

Must not have over X amount of male friends

Must know how to cook/clean

Must be engaging in a conversation

Must let you go out whenever you want with friend regardless of her wants/needs/wishes

 

 

Rubbish! I've dated multiple women that didn't correspond with most of that above list.

 

If I were to write one for women I'll be here till tomorrow.

 

I'm with Blue Spiral on this, the majority of men are. not. that. picky.

[Rosti87]

It probably depends on where you live. I would imagine NYC is more picky than say Kentucky. Urban more picky than rural. Good looking person more picky than not so good looking and so on. Perspectives are probably different depending on with whom one socializes. In my social circles both genders are pretty picky. But I have friends in other social circles where the standards are different.

 

I think the back and forth here can go on forever because I have a funny feeling that it is all relative.

[Nightvision]

I'd raise a BS flag...counting my experiences. I've lost interest after seeing how some women acted, spoke or what knowledge they have. I would gladly ignore some of the superficial requirements if some personality requirements are met. But hey, I'm just one drop in the ocean

[Thorshammer]

Like i say in all my posts.. and i will join the generalization-train too :

 

- Nice guys dont always finish last... and bad guys can/do come out first too.

- I do agree men can be pickier when it comes to looks, but like always - these come from the attractive man.

- Women can be pickier when it comes to behavior, again this is for the mature, experienced and attractive woman.

- Women tend to lose their search for what they find as their perfect mate/soul mate when they get older - or, they play around with the concept that new traits become more important.

- Men, in my opinion, can be more loyal than women when it comes to staying in the relationship. This doesn't include cheating, unless you want to go that route, if so ... men and women cheating have been neck in neck in stats in many surveys done. What i mean by loyal is, they are less likely to leave if shes not advancing her career, if she becomes insecure, if she becomes controlling, if she loses her job, if she loses her desire to have a better job - dont agree... check our forums and compare posts.

[John John]

I agree 1000%, ESPECIALLY with the last point about men being more loyal (not necessarily in regards to cheating). Over the long term, we as men have to jump through more hoops. Among other things, we especially have to be confident 24/7/365, or the woman will lose attraction (I could not care less about a woman's confidence, so long as she isn't so unconfident to the point that she's a needy headcase).

[John John]

Love ya, man, but that's not true. What about the girl you just rejected? If that were REALLY true, I'm sure you would be in a relationship today.

 

It's not really true that men just want a cute girl. In my experience, a lot of guys have a lot of prerequisites ... the difference is they often don't know how to/can't actually ARTICULATE it. So, my male friends will say things like needing a "click" or "connection" or "spark" or other amorphous things like that. To me, it's just a series of prerequisites - some conscious and some unconscious - that these men have.

 

 

To add to my response on this...I think I rejected her because it was just a weird time for me. My ex and I began dating Christmas 2007, and broke up Thanksgiving 2012, and my cat died Christmas 2012 (yeah, the holidays blew last year). I started dating this new girl during the holidays and it was just weird. That, combined with the fact that she had a kid and was moving very fast (already facebooking me after the second date)...yeah, I just wasn't feeling that situation.

 

But I think if things had been a bit different (no kid, and none of those weird feelings I just described - perhaps a timing issue), her looks, having a good enough job, and being kind would have been more than enough for me. I said it earlier...as long as woman is at least pretty, not heavy, is a genuinely kind person, and has a college degree and doing SOMETHING with her life (other than being a hooker/stripper), she's more than a contender in my book. I don't care about her overall ambition, confidence, career trajectory, height, etc.

[Catherine_3]

I think I would need to see some statistics or something. All this anecdotal evidence is weak.

 

And maybe cheating or just checking out emotionally are ways that men "leave" the relationship. More of a passive aggressive breakup. I've seen plenty of those. The guy will be all "I don't know why she's still here. I wish she would go away" and the woman will be all "I don't get it. Is he depressed? Is there another woman?"

 

I've actually seen some of those relationships go on for years until finally someone gets pregnant and then the guy is all "how did she trap me?" And he's depressed for a few moths and them the baby comes and he resigns himself to his family life.

 

I don't think I've ever seen a woman passively continue for years in a relationship while telling her friends she's not really into him but he won't go away.

[John John]

I don't think I've ever seen a woman passively continue for years in a relationship while telling her friends she's not really into him but he won't go away.

 

My ex did this to me for about a year, only she never told anyone. She just kept it inside.

[Rosti87]

I tend to agree with this. At least on the marriage front. Men tend to stay in marriages even if they are not happy with their wives but women will more readily divorce if they are not happy. Many divorced men I have spoken to said that it was their wives that initiated the divorce. Guys tend to be more loyal when it comes to hanging in there.

[Catherine_3]

My ex did this to me for about a year, only she never told anyone. She just kept it inside.

 

That sucks, sorry to hear that. How lame.

[John John]

Guys tend to be more loyal when it comes to hanging in there.

 

Yup, that's very true. Not even in just my case...most breakups that I know of were initiated by the woman.

 

 

That sucks, sorry to hear that. How lame.

 

Thanks...it is what it is! Water under the bridge at this point.

[radiohead20]

Jesus, what kind of men do you deal with? Most of us are not like that, and would prefer not to have a women with all those traits as she would be way way way too high maintenance (hey honey, before we go to the grocery store I need to spend 30 minutes prepping up!).

 

in fact, I bet that there are plenty of men that do not have the standards you mention but you do not want to date them, as they do not fit your massive "pass/fail" filter. Ok, I'm presuming a lot without knowing you but from the women I know that complain this is usually the case.

 

High-Standards Girl coming home at 2:30am after a night out: "OMGGGGGGGG I'm going to be single foreeevverrrrrr, men suckk, no men hit on me!, maybe it's cuz my love handles are still showing....*eats half a pint of ben and jerry's and passes out*

 

Sober Brother that went out with her: What are you talking about, you got hit on a ton tonight? probably 20 times at least

 

High-Standards Girl: But they were all creepy, or ugly.

 

Sober Brother: how about mike? the engineer or john the investment banker? they seemed nice and fun

 

High-Standards Girl: Mehhhhh, mike seemed a little too nerdy and john was only 5 foot 9, I need a tall man

 

Sober Brother: But you are only 5'4".

 

High Standards Girl: Whateva

[LoveSoDeep]

Love ya, man, but that's not true. What about the girl you just rejected? If that were REALLY true, I'm sure you would be in a relationship today.

 

It's not really true that men just want a cute girl. In my experience, a lot of guys have a lot of prerequisites ... the difference is they often don't know how to/can't actually ARTICULATE it. So, my male friends will say things like needing a "click" or "connection" or "spark" or other amorphous things like that. To me, it's just a series of prerequisites - some conscious and some unconscious - that these men have.

 

Oh, ding ding ding! Perfect...yes I agree men do ahve a list they just don't always know how to put it into words.

 

However I think just to get tot he point of getting the very first date I do think for both men and women being okay looking and having an somewhat "good/nice" personality (or as much of one as you can tell online or in a quick chance meeting) is enough for one to ask and the other to say yes.

 

Yeah but I'm talking more about initial attraction/online dating, since that is what I have been dealing with for the past year. Judging by womens' profiles, they seem to have longer lists than we do.

 

However, I do think both women and men have similarly long lists in terms of long term relationships.

 

Let's be honest there are things you (and by you I mean all men) write women off for....everyone has a list...has to live within this distance...has to be this age...has to be family oriented (i.e. like my family)...has to get along with my friends...has to be funny or a have a sense of humor I enjoy...it may take a couple dates to figure some of this out but all of this goes into deciding to enter a full on relationship with anyone.

 

I think the reason women put this stuff in their profiles is they aren't afraid to say it and they think it may be saving them some time...if the kind of guys they know they aren't into rule themselves out then they have saved time to meet with guy they have a chance of a good relationship with. Just like Moontiger says below.

 

Another thought:

 

Generally, women don't want to waste time. So while a guy will start dating someone because they are "nice" and "attractive" only to bail three months later when they learn things they don't like, women try to avoid this. They look at the whole package from the very start, think about what things will be like down the road, and determine if its likely that time spent with this person is a good investment.

 

To add to my response on this...I think I rejected her because it was just a weird time for me. My ex and I began dating Christmas 2007, and broke up Thanksgiving 2012, and my cat died Christmas 2012 (yeah, the holidays blew last year). I started dating this new girl during the holidays and it was just weird. That, combined with the fact that she had a kid and was moving very fast (already facebooking me after the second date)...yeah, I just wasn't feeling that situation.

 

But I think if things had been a bit different (no kid, and none of those weird feelings I just described - perhaps a timing issue), her looks, having a good enough job, and being kind would have been more than enough for me. I said it earlier...as long as woman is at least pretty, not heavy, is a genuinely kind person, and has a college degree and doing SOMETHING with her life (other than being a hooker/stripper), she's more than a contender in my book. I don't care about her overall ambition, confidence, career trajectory, height, etc.

 

See so maybe it was her actions more that her attributes....I have this feeling that the kid may not have come to be an issue this early if she had not started with the FB tagging and whatnot on the 3rd date. It sounds like you felt a little smothered by her actions..and like you said the single mom thing is hard. Where men and women are different is women aren't afraid to proclaim " I've tried dating single parents and it's not for me." in their profile I think men do the same thing silently rejecting women for things like that and that's probably why many people aren't 100% open about their kids after being online for a while. It's all learned behavior..and I have to say I don't really like it it makes people too judgmental and closed off.....probably to their own detriment. It's sad really.