The whole "confidence"/ "self-worth" thing

[allcity]

Yeah, I agree with BrianH46 that internal conversation and a lot of self-reflection is essential. It's definitely what helped me a lot. I also was lucky enough to meet an amazing woman years ago that taught me a lot about this kind of thing.

 

She was the one that introduced me to the concept that the way people view us and act towards us (whether negative or positive) often says very little about us and a lot more about them.

 

That doesn't mean we're not responsible for our own actions; just that other people's attitudes towards us often have more to do with their own feelings of strength and weakness than ours. And the same is true of how we view them.

 

Once you get that idea rooted in your mind, a lot of other people's odd behaviour quickly becomes water off a duck's back.

 

Say you meet someone new and they instantly take against you for no obvious reason. Instead of being hurt by it, you just realise that this is their issue and you get on with your life (as long as you're aware enough to be sure that you didn't clearly treat them badly/rudely, of course).

 

I heard that a book called the Four Agreements has a whole section devoted to this kind of thinking. I've not read it yet, though.

[MattW]

The chance of becoming a famous actor is incredibly low yet the actors who succeeded were those who tried anyway. The chance of getting a novel published is incredibly low yet published authors are those who tried anyway. The chance of inventing something new is incredibly low yet inventors are those who try anyway. Making an effort you at least have a chance, you can't win the lottery without playing.

 

Again, though, it's not like I've been doing absolutely nothing. Maybe I haven't exactly "done it all", but I've seen enough of the world that I should've made some progress by now. So why haven't I? Why can't I? Becoming famous is something that's typically difficult to do in general; having people in your life is relatively easier. And yet I can't do it. It frustrates me, and it hurts me, to know that there's something so fundamentally wrong with me that I just can't have people around.

 

Anyhow, I'm going to be blunt (sorry), needing other people valuing you in order to not considering suicide is being needy. Settling for anyone who wants you regardless of your own feeling (which you said you would in other threads) is being desperate. So, so far you have tried being needy, desperate and basing you self-worth on other people desiring you and it has yet not given you happiness or the success you want with women. You can make a choice, either to give desperation and neediness more time, hoping it will eventually make you happy and attract a woman, or you could try something new by finding more things to live for and valuing yourself independently of others. If it doesn't help you to find a partner it could still help you finding happiness, so what's harm?

 

All I'm trying to say is that living a "happy" life doesn't seem very enjoyable to me if you have no one to share it with. To me, someone with my beliefs and goals, a life spent entirely alone just isn't a life worth living. I want friends, I want to find love, I want to have all of that, and no matter what, I'm never going to be able to be "okay" with not having those things.

 

But it's getting harder and harder to keep trudging through life, not making any progress in this regard. I'm finally moving ahead in other areas of my life, but in terms of having a social life, a love life, I'm still nowhere. How can I be happy knowing, again, that I'm so fundamentally unattractive, undesirable, even on a platonic level?

 

Now I know you have said things on the note before that no one could possibly be able to notice your desperation in real life but how can you know for sure it's your good sides being overlooked and not your bad sides being noticed that is the problem until you really fix it?

 

I might be going a bit off topic here, but this piece of your post has reminded me of an odd, well... phenomenon I've noticed about myself. See, I know this is the wrong attitude to have, but frequently, when I go places, whether it be work, class, or wherever, in my mind, I WANT to come off as cold, brooding, and distant, because if people are going to keep away from me anyway, I might as well give them a reason. Yet, whenever I go into the day with this attitude, I end up being the exact opposite. Take yesterday for example. I was in a mood, but I had to go to work, and I just wanted to be a black cloud, but I clocked in, and instantly, I was making jokes, goofing around with people, and being upbeat, and whatnot. Then I got home, and was just like "Wait, why did I do that...?". It's kinda bizarre to me, really. Doesn't seem to make much sense.

[Batya33]

"All I'm trying to say is that living a "happy" life doesn't seem very enjoyable to me if you have no one to share it with. To me, someone with my beliefs and goals, a life spent entirely alone just isn't a life worth living. I want friends, I want to find love, I want to have all of that, and no matter what, I'm never going to be able to be "okay" with not having those things.

 

But it's getting harder and harder to keep trudging through life, not making any progress in this regard. I'm finally moving ahead in other areas of my life, but in terms of having a social life, a love life, I'm still nowhere. How can I be happy knowing, again, that I'm so fundamentally unattractive, undesirable, even on a platonic level?"

 

Your last sentence is an inaccurate assumption and gives you the excuse to be passive. If you really want those things you'll do what it takes to give it your best shot. You get so much benefit out of doing nothing or telling yourself you're "trying" that you'll have to convince yourself that the benefits of copping out aren't worth the downside of not having a social or romantic life.

[Rosti87]

Still, I mean... do you guys really think therapy can help me? I feel like I would be a tough case for even the best therapists in the world to handle, and I'd imagine the people at the top of their profession aren't exactly local at all to me. v_v

 

If therapy can help people with disassociative disorder (multiple personality) which is a tremendously complex disorder, then it can definitely help you. In the world of psychiatry, your situation is not a rarity.

[Rosti87]

I definitely agree with having the relationship skills. The more whole both parties are the better the odds the relationship will thrive. Your point about if one or more have issues that this can make for a pretty bad relationship.

[blueidealist24]

link removed

[Dusk1983]

She was the one that introduced me to the concept that the way people view us and act towards us (whether negative or positive) often says very little about us and a lot more about them.

 

That doesn't mean we're not responsible for our own actions; just that other people's attitudes towards us often have more to do with their own feelings of strength and weakness than ours. And the same is true of how we view them.

 

 

I don't buy this. Like a lot of self help stuff it absolves the person of some responsibility, which is a very seductive line of reasoning but not necessarily accurate.

 

It may be an inconvenient truth but IME the adult social world is surprisingly meritocratic.

 

The popular people I know all share certain characteristics that make them so.

 

The people I know who are less popular, despite sharing the same fundamental human qualities - being ostensibly and normally "good", loving and kind - all have certain character flaws. Some are just quirks that take a while to get used to, while others have sides to their personality that in certain circumstances become unhealthy and destructive to themselves and others.

 

There are certain norms and standards of behavior that are, generally, popular with other human beings. That's not to say other types of character are doomed to be alone, and in many cases these people actually animate and bring colour to the world. It's just that the more particular your personal idiosyncrasies, or more pronounced your character flaws, the less people are likely to "get" you. It's a pure numbers game.

[Batya33]

I think there's a huge difference between the conventional definition of "popular" (especially when it resembles some type of high school popularity even among adults) and someone who has a fulfilling social life with a few close friends (or even just one!), some friends/acquaintances etc. I was never popular though for years I desperately wanted to be. It was when I let go of the conventional definition that I became "popular" in the sense of having a circle of close friends/friends/acquaintances and being able to connect with new people and form new friendships fairly easily. So I think we have to define our terms and more importantly, the OP does as far as what his social goals are.

[MattW]

Your last sentence is an inaccurate assumption and gives you the excuse to be passive.

 

How so? If I've gone this long being unable to meet people, make friends, and date, then logic dictates that there is, indeed, something that makes me fundamentally undesirable, and unwanted by the world.

 

Look, guys, one of the big reasons I keep making these topics is because certain things keep triggering my sadness/ anger, and the biggest trigger I keep getting slapped in the face with is the last girl I was into. Still knowing her is somewhat of a challenge, on its own. But having to sit by and watch as she rekindles "something" with one of her sleazeball ex-boyfriends just kills me on the inside.

 

I still can't properly get past my feelings for her. The fact that mine and her personalities meshed so incredibly well, and the fact that we connected and bonded over so many things, and yet I still couldn't meet her bare requirements for even getting a single date, that just really does a number on me. I've never hit it off so well with someone, I've never found someone I mesh with so well, and yet, I still wasn't good enough for her. It would probably take years for me to meet someone I connect with even half as well as I do with this girl, and if I couldn't make it happen with her, I see no reason to believe I could make it happen with anyone else.

 

I hate having to sit idly by, knowing that she'd rather jump back in bed with douchey slimeballs that end up hurting her in the long run, than date someone like me. And I'm left having to twiddle my thumbs for another 5-10 years and hope that *maybe* I can meet a girl that's even half as good of a match for me as she was, and who knows if I can even manage to attract that girl?

 

It's just extremely difficult to get over all of this, and every time I see her, and see her and this other guy hanging all over each other at work, it triggers all these bad feelings, and I just can't break this cycle. Having to sit by for all of this is just eating me up inside, it's destroying me on the inside. I've never felt pain and hurt as badly as I do every time this stuff gets triggered, and it's just getting worse and worse every time.

[Slimpee]

Matt,

 

I would love to see you heading over to the Personal Development forum.

[Dusk1983]

I think there's a huge difference between the conventional definition of "popular" (especially when it resembles some type of high school popularity even among adults) and someone who has a fulfilling social life with a few close friends (or even just one!), some friends/acquaintances etc. I was never popular though for years I desperately wanted to be. It was when I let go of the conventional definition that I became "popular" in the sense of having a circle of close friends/friends/acquaintances and being able to connect with new people and form new friendships fairly easily. So I think we have to define our terms and more importantly, the OP does as far as what his social goals are.

 

Yeah, "popular" is a loaded word and I should have avoided it - I really just mean "likeable".

 

I do believe that almost everyone has something good and likeable in their character, but there are nevertheless certain traits that more/most/many/a significant proportion of people are drawn to.

 

Relationships are just the ability to make another feel good and those traits do that. Confidence, positivity and a strong sense of humour would be three classic ones. It feels better to be around someone like this rather than the opposite. It's like asking why chocolate is more popular than broccoli.

 

It's always comforting to say the problem lies with everyone else, and many people do exactly that as a barrier against reality ("nobody understands me"), but overall taken statistically society doesn't lie, and although you may think you have "hidden depths" others aren't able or don't want to see them.

[Rosti87]

You have no choice but to let go and move on. It's in the past now. Nothing more you can do about it. Water under the bridge, etc. Get up, dust yourself off, roll up your sleeves and find another way to deal with the issue with the help of a THERAPIST.

[Rosti87]

Matt,

 

I would love to see you heading over to the Personal Development forum.

 

I agree with this. The OP is not ready for a relationship yet. He needs personal development first.

[MattW]

You have no choice but to let go and move on. It's in the past now. Nothing more you can do about it. Water under the bridge, etc. Get up, dust yourself off, roll up your sleeves and find another way to deal with the issue with the help of a THERAPIST.

 

I know I HAVE to let go and move on, but when you take into consideration all the things I wrote in that post, moving past this is proving to be the hardest thing in the world for me. I just can't stop feeling something for her. I can't stop questioning "Why him/ them, and not me?". I can't stop feeling resentful of the sleazy guy(s) she chooses to give herself to. I can't stop tormenting myself over the fact that the odds are slim I'll meet another girl as awesome as she is, and the odds are even slimmer that said girl would be any more receptive of me than this one. I just can't let go.

 

And can we skip the whole "can't vs don't want to" debate, please? It's all semantics, and you guys get the point I'm trying to get accross, here.

 

Matt,

 

I would love to see you heading over to the Personal Development forum.

 

I agree with this. The OP is not ready for a relationship yet. He needs personal development first.

 

With all due respect, does it really matter which forum I post on? Regardless of where I post, it's always just going to be the same people, saying the same stuff.

[Rosti87]

You can go to a totally different forum for advice where there are totally different members and you are going to get the same advice.

 

Have you stopped to consider people less 'fortunate' than you? People who have disabilities, malformations due to accidents or birth defects, people with speaking disorders, etc.? I have a friend with physical malformation and she has plenty of friends and is happily married. What makes her interesting and compelling is she has stretched herself and has an incredibly interesting personality and sense of adventure. She is comfortable with her uniqueness and uses that uniqueness to her advantage.

 

Based on what you have shared, you don't have these obviously unchangeable issues to deal with. The type of people I described above have tremendous odds against their finding someone. If they can, you can. (Let me also add that these people don't dwell on their disadvantages).

 

I have no idea if this is a 'can't' or 'don't want to' situation you are in. The bottom line is you keep holding onto the past and keep feeling like you are persecuted. Like you are some kind of victim. We are only a victim if we allow it. You need to move on and take steps improve yourself physically, mentally, emotionally and spiritually.

[Slimpee]

 

With all due respect, does it really matter which forum I post on? Regardless of where I post, it's always just going to be the same people, saying the same stuff.

 

Haha, that's the point! I don't mean that it's the "more appropriate" forum. I'm just saying that it'd be good for you to take control of some of these issues and try to work on yourself. So when I say that i'd like to see you post over there, I mean it more symbolically...

[MattW]

Have you stopped to consider people less 'fortunate' than you? People who have disabilities, malformations due to accidents or birth defects, people with speaking disorders, etc.? I have a friend with physical malformation and she has plenty of friends and is happily married. What makes her interesting and compelling is she has stretched herself and has an incredibly interesting personality and sense of adventure. She is comfortable with her uniqueness and uses that uniqueness to her advantage.

 

Based on what you have shared, you don't have these obviously unchangeable issues to deal with. The type of people I described above have tremendous odds against their finding someone. If they can, you can. (Let me also add that these people don't dwell on their disadvantages).

 

Yes, I have considered people less fortunate than me, but again, all that really proves is that there's something fundamentally undesirable about me. Aside from my extreme lack of height, no, I don't have these same unfortunate problems to deal with, but yet, I'm still less desirable than people who DO have these problems. More power to them for being able to do all that, I applaud them for it. I, on the other hand, am weak, and possibly so unattractive at my very core, that it doesn't matter that I have no disabilities or disorders.

 

As far as the whole "personal development" and "working on yourself" stuff goes, again, all that seems to come down to is "Go out more, do more stuff, be an interesting person!", and again, that's so much easier said than done. My interest level in a lot of things is pretty low. Not due to "laziness", or whatever, just a lack of interest. And if I lack interest in something, I'm unlikely to follow through on it; at best, I might try it a few times and give up on it because I'm just not interested. It's not easy for me to find things that spark an interest in me. Thus "doing stuff" and "being a more interesting person" are a lot more challenging than some of you guys make it out to be.

 

And even doing stuff doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot in the way of meeting people, making friends, dating, etc. Again, with all the classes I've taken over the last five or so years, I've been thrust into so many new groups, and yet, how many friends do I have? How many girls have I "met"? Like I've been saying, it's not like the last several years of my life have been spent in complete isolation from the rest of the world. I've had more than enough opportunities to connect with people, and yet, I have nothing.

[Rosti87]

Have you ever traveled abroad? Gone out to events that are outside your cultural background? Read autobiographies about people who have overcome great odds? Volunteered time with the less fortunate? Sometimes when one has unusal experiences or adventures they not only form different opinions or perspectives on life they have wonder stories to share.

 

The fact that you don't have any interests indicates deep depression (which I think someone else already shared in your last thread). Which means I think you need a therapist.

[Batya33]

"As far as the whole "personal development" and "working on yourself" stuff goes, again, all that seems to come down to is "Go out more, do more stuff, be an interesting person!", and again, that's so much easier said than done. My interest level in a lot of things is pretty low. Not due to "laziness", or whatever, just a lack of interest. And if I lack interest in something, I'm unlikely to follow through on it; at best, I might try it a few times and give up on it because I'm just not interested. It's not easy for me to find things that spark an interest in me. Thus "doing stuff" and "being a more interesting person" are a lot more challenging than some of you guys make it out to be. "

 

I can't think of one person in the hundreds of responses you've received who's claimed that it's easy to make the changes that have been suggested. If your interest level is low, and you're content to let it remain low, then why should other people be interested in you?

[blueidealist24]

 

And even doing stuff doesn't necessarily mean a whole lot in the way of meeting people, making friends, dating, etc. Again, with all the classes I've taken over the last five or so years, I've been thrust into so many new groups, and yet, how many friends do I have? How many girls have I "met"? Like I've been saying, it's not like the last several years of my life have been spent in complete isolation from the rest of the world. I've had more than enough opportunities to connect with people, and yet, I have nothing.

 

It might not seem like much to you, but you did take a step forward in a way when you got that woman to meet you for coffee (although I think it was a good decision, given her background, not to sleep with her). You probably wouldn't have done that six months ago.

[MattW]

It might not seem like much to you, but you did take a step forward in a way when you got that woman to meet you for coffee (although I think it was a good decision, given her background, not to sleep with her). You probably wouldn't have done that six months ago.

 

Yeah, but I really didn't enjoy it at all, and if that's what the majority of the average dates are like, I almost never want to do that again. It was just so... blah.

[MattW]

I can't think of one person in the hundreds of responses you've received who's claimed that it's easy to make the changes that have been suggested. If your interest level is low, and you're content to let it remain low, then why should other people be interested in you?

 

I think you may have slightly misinterpreted what I was trying to say. Obviously, motivating oneself to get up and make changes isn't "easy", but I'm talking about the actual thought process behind "going out and doing things". If there were places I wanted to go and things I wanted to do, I'd go out and do them. But a lot of what I want is just basic social stuff. I want people I can go have lunch/ dinner with, I want people I can go get drinks with, I want people I can go see a movie with, I want people I can go to events with. Aside from that stuff, there's really nothing that I'm interested in enough to go by myself and pursue. So "going out and doing things" is a fine piece of advice, but when there really aren't any places to go or things to do that you have any kind of interest in, that's not exactly helpful.

 

Have you ever traveled abroad? Gone out to events that are outside your cultural background? Read autobiographies about people who have overcome great odds? Volunteered time with the less fortunate? Sometimes when one has unusal experiences or adventures they not only form different opinions or perspectives on life they have wonder stories to share.

 

Eh. Back in high school, I was required to do volunteer work for a semester, and I really didn't like it very much. I'm not sure what you mean, per se, by "events outside your cultural background", but years ago, I used to get dragged along by my parents to little festivals and stuff all the time, and I never really took anything from any of it. I've never traveled abroad, mostly due to the fact that I don't know where I'd find the time and money to do so, and also due to the fact that I'm deathly afraid of flying/ travel by boat.

 

I dunno. Things don't tend to have the effect on me that you described. I mean, I'm perfectly open-minded about trying things if the opportunity is presented to me, but I'm not the type that ever has the idea of "I want to go do this!", and I never really take enough away to really give me a new perspective on anything, at least not in the long term.

[Wayfara]

Maybe I haven't exactly "done it all", but I've seen enough of the world that I should've made some progress by now. So why haven't I? Why can't I?

 

Right now you are needy and desperate and as no one who isn't desperate wants a desperate partner you have to go for someone who is desperate enough which limits your pool of potential partners to equally needy and desperate women,. You implied in a previous thread that even desperate girls can have competition for them, true but this means you are still looking at girls with options. You want results while staying desperate then go after desperate girls with no other options than you.

 

Becoming famous is something that's typically difficult to do in general; having people in your life is relatively easier.

 

The only way you can beat the odds is by trying, but if trying is worth the risk is up to you. Yes, it might be harder for you than others, like it is for the dyslexic people learning to read and write but the only way to succeed is to try anyway. Even when you fail the only way to succeed is to keep trying anyway, no way around it. If the risk of maybe making useless efforts is too big for you well then you just have to accept that you are not going to succeed. With taking a risk you have a chance and with not taking a risk you have none but doing nothing at least doesn't put you in danger of making efforts in vain, up to you to prioritize what's you feel is most important.

 

How can I be happy knowing, again, that I'm so fundamentally unattractive, undesirable, even on a platonic level?

 

Do you feel a big connection to the people you want to desire you (not counting the girl you like)? The people you tried to become friends with, were they people you have had much fun together and things in common? I'm curious.

 

I can't stop questioning "Why him/ them, and not me?".

 

Why not you is obvious, she has no attraction for you. Had she gotten with you despite the no attraction it would be you, instead of the sleazeball ex, that would make her miserable. Would you really want to be the boyfriend that makes her shiver in the bad way? Better to not be her boyfriend at all I would say. Why him? Well if he is a sleazeball as you say (a well known cheater or abuser?) obviously she has no self-respect and can't say no to someone she is attracted to even when they treat her bad. However that is her problem, you have enough of your own to worry about.

 

My interest level in a lot of things is pretty low.

 

As one has said, it might be a sign of depression but this is problematic on it's own too when you want to be wanted. If the main thing about you is that you are an average nice person that usually isn't enough to make people curious about you. What makes people stand out are generally the passions they have, when someone is really passionate about something that can be very attractive to be around. As you have admitted that you are only living on the hope that somebody one day might want you I'm kind of doubting you have any passions, maybe hobbies but nothing that sparks you interests so much that you feel a purpose in life. Sadly people with low interest in things are often boring to other people.

[MattW]

Right now you are needy and desperate and as no one who isn't desperate wants a desperate partner you have to go for someone who is desperate enough which limits your pool of potential partners to equally needy and desperate women,. You implied in a previous thread that even desperate girls can have competition for them, true but this means you are still looking at girls with options. You want results while staying desperate then go after desperate girls with no other options than you.

 

That doesn't seem like it would feel very good to me. I wouldn't know how to find people like this, anyway.

 

Do you feel a big connection to the people you want to desire you (not counting the girl you like)? The people you tried to become friends with, were they people you have had much fun together and things in common? I'm curious.

 

I'd say so, yeah. But, at this point, all of them have moved on and I'm really not in contact with any of them anymore, aside from occasional Facebooking. At the moment, I'm kind of surrounded by people I don't feel much of a connection with. I mean, I still try to be personable and funny, and whatnot, but I'm mostly among people I don't really feel anything for one way or another.

 

Why not you is obvious, she has no attraction for you. Had she gotten with you despite the no attraction it would be you, instead of the sleazeball ex, that would make her miserable. Would you really want to be the boyfriend that makes her shiver in the bad way? Better to not be her boyfriend at all I would say. Why him? Well if he is a sleazeball as you say (a well known cheater or abuser?) obviously she has no self-respect and can't say no to someone she is attracted to even when they treat her bad. However that is her problem, you have enough of your own to worry about.

 

But my question was more centered on why she couldn't be attracted to me. We hit it off in so many ways, I'm not the ugliest guy around, she's not exactly a supermodel, so why couldn't she feel the slightest attraction to me to at least give me the chance of taking her out on one date? Why am I not attractive to her, yet guys who act too full of themselves, who have a wandering eye, who are known womanizers/ players, those guys ARE "attractive"? What's so great about her sleazy ex that she's perfectly happy giving him another chance and jumping in bed with him, and what's so wrong with me that I'm not even worth a date?

 

As one has said, it might be a sign of depression but this is problematic on it's own too when you want to be wanted. If the main thing about you is that you are an average nice person that usually isn't enough to make people curious about you. What makes people stand out are generally the passions they have, when someone is really passionate about something that can be very attractive to be around. As you have admitted that you are only living on the hope that somebody one day might want you I'm kind of doubting you have any passions, maybe hobbies but nothing that sparks you interests so much that you feel a purpose in life. Sadly people with low interest in things are often boring to other people.

 

My biggest "passion" in life right now is, well, the thing I'm hoping to make a career out of -- digital media production. I love shooting and editing video, and audio, and making stuff with it. That's what I enjoy doing, and that's the kind of work I want to spend the rest of my life doing. But I can't really imagine any way to use that passion to make myself a more interesting, intriguing person.

[blueidealist24]

Yeah, but I really didn't enjoy it at all, and if that's what the majority of the average dates are like, I almost never want to do that again. It was just so... blah.

 

I find that with most dates too. It seems like you have to suffer through tons of bad, boring dates to even get one good one. I guess that's just the way it is..