she's always tired or sick

[tiredofvampires]

I agree with the poster who said that sucking it up and taking rejection, even if you think you could, is not really a solution in the long run. It's more a band-aid that one might use for a limited amount of time over an issue that is self-limiting, which is more or less how I was suggesting it.

 

But I think more is going on here than that.

 

The more you say OP, the worse this sounds to me.

 

My wife has been used to her relationships being based mostly on physical attraction and then lots of fighting and drama because they weren't compatible in all of the other important ways.

 

This may sound counter-intuitive, but even though no one *likes* to fight or create drama, some people only really feel their relationship is "alive" and passionate with those elements. People don't just choose their partners randomly -- when something is sought out habitually, it's part of a deeper process and need. I'm about 100% sure, based on all you've said, that your wife hasn't outgrown anything or done the soul-searching necessary to move past those elements.

 

It sounds like she may have been with a good number of selfish jerks. And drama is easy to come by with one of those. All you have to do is yell, "You selfish jerk! All you care about is yourself! It's always about you, you, you!!" and slam a door, feeling pumped with self-righteous indignation that is well-deserved. Because you're right about him. And while you may dislike the state of mind you're in, the person who has made his needs demands has reminded you how powerful, irresistible and influential you are to have sparked this tension. Why, you wouldn't be all that if someone just backed down without a fight.

 

So I don't think she's so much looking for you to be erotically dominant as for you to join her in the game of creating drama. You broke the mold, and that doesn't compute in her world (even if you provide the stability she needs in a material way). You give her nothing to blame you for. And where's the action in that? She can't do this drama thing on her own. It takes two to tango. So since you won't step up to the plate to initiate a problem, something worth shaking things up over, she'll do it for you. And here are her fighting words:

 

when we have talked about it, she will just say she doesn't believe that's the way I really feel and that I must be gay or something.

 

It doesn't seem to me you are recognizing the level to which this sinks to get a rise out of you. First, she's saying that the man she married is a liar.

 

Then, she is blatantly taunting you. Calling a known straight man "gay" (whether this is PC or not) is a deliberate attempt to emasculate him. Not to mention, it brings back memories of junior high bullying. You WIFE is BULLYING you -- and she's how old? I can't imagine saying that to a man I loved, to be honest with you, OP. It's tantamount to a verbal slap in the face, it's so aggressive. It's a way of goading you to feel hurt and angry -- so she can get the drama she's missing, to see if she can't elicit that latent inner jerk of yours. The things she's said here are very revealing about her basic level of disrespect for you -- even though I don't know you or your marriage beyond this thread, there is no other way of interpreting these words. I don't even think she's being honest herself when she calls you dishonest. I imagine she knows damn well that you mean what you say, but it's more provocative for her to accuse you of not being believable. That's what I call bait.

 

I get the feeling from the tone of your posts that you are of the "I would do anything to make her happy" mindset. You should not be willing to do ANYTHING for the person you love, if they start to disrespect you. And believe it or not, that's started to happen. This is not about needs she has not being met: you are every woman's dream, in the sense that you're eager to please if it's desired, and willing to back off if it's not. That about covers everything. My gynecologist told me that if you polled all her patients, the #1 wishlist item among new mothers would be: when I say NO, it means NO. So your wife is creating conflict (and a perceived "need") when there isn't any real need you're not satisfying.

 

How long have you been married? Been together? Because I sense clouds on the horizon for you. I think you're going to be disrespected more and more in this relationship as it goes on and it'll be hard because you have something of a sacrificing nature. I almost get the feeling you see yourself as the lucky guy who finally snagged her for marriage. Just a hunch, could be wrong. It's not bad to be sacrificing, but people often take advantage of that very slowly and insidiously when they aren't used to having a partnership that thrives without fighting and drama. I sense this will permeate more than just the few years of your young children's lives, so really think about keeping your dignity here.

 

You don't want to get as tired as me, sotired.

[RyanJ]

Only read your initial post, hopefully this is still relevant.

 

My first impulse is to tell you to push the issue, make her talk to you about it. If it means her getting upset, whatever - as long as she comes clean. There's just no way a woman is sick or tired all the time; all that means is she doesn't want to have sex with you, and if she doesn't want to have sex with her partner there's a problem.

 

Great sex is just as important to a healthy marriage as communication, loyalty, trust etc. and if you aren't getting what you need it's her responsibility as your partner to talk that out with you and come up with a solution.

 

It could be just one of those cases where women don't communicate in a logical, verbal way. If she says she wants you to be uncontrollably attracted to her and ravish her, she probably means it. Her telling you she's sick (when she actually isn't - again no one can be sick that much) is her way of seeing if you'll give up or push through and make it happen.

 

Obviously she can't say "Hey I'm not actually sick, just try harder and show me how much you care!" because that defeats the whole purpose. It's likely she wants you to come from a place of "I don't care how sick she is, she's so irresistible to me I'll take her sick or not." and have you carry her off to the bedroom.

 

Cheers

[tiredofvampires]

It doesn't really make sense to me that if my partner was ready and willing to have sex, and was passionate and enthusiastic about it with me when it happens, why I'd have to invent or exaggerate an obstacle to doing it just so he could exceed all these other displays.

 

"I know he wants sex with me and is very demonstrative already, but let's just test out HOW FAR he will REALLY go to get it. Throw him a curve ball. Let's see if he would still want it if/when I've made it clear I have a cold or feel like going to sleep. Let's see what happens when good sex is likely to happen, and I just stop it."

 

I could see wanting your partner to press for sex maybe once or twice. But on a continual basis, or requiring it of him to prove something? That would be pretty strange and I would add, neurotically manipulative.

[quirky]

Does she usually like more unusual/daring/kinky things than you?

Appart from the frequency of the sex how was the quality/compatibility of it at the early stages of the relationship?

[sotired99]

Does she usually like more unusual/daring/kinky things than you?

Appart from the frequency of the sex how was the quality/compatibility of it at the early stages of the relationship?

 

No, she's not really any more kinky or anything that anyone else I've ever known. In fact, she's always seemed somewhat inhibited to me. Most of the time, she just lies in missionary and expects me to control everything. That said, she was a stripper and escort in her early 20's - I didn't know about this until we were several months pregnant with our first kid. I'm sure she has issues to work through related to this, but she doesn't think so. She has been to therapy for her anger and depression in the past, but to my knowledge hasn't really talked about that part of her past with her therapists and doesn't see that it was anything that could have been traumatic or damaging, so she focuses on other things.

[quirky]

She was a stripper and escort in her early 20s?? And that has nothing to do with things? Interesting..

Again, I might be wrong. But I have a feeling she likes more edgy stuff and since she doesn't get it she's bored and therefore unmotivated for sex. Or maybe as greywolf mentioned, she wants to feel like a sex object and that's why she's not very active.

Would you be keen to open a discussion with her about that?

[sotired99]

Obviously she can't say "Hey I'm not actually sick, just try harder and show me how much you care!" because that defeats the whole purpose. It's likely she wants you to come from a place of "I don't care how sick she is, she's so irresistible to me I'll take her sick or not." and have you carry her off to the bedroom.

 

Yes, I think this is it, but it's going to be a challenge for me because it's not that I don't think she's irresistible, but I care about her as a whole person and not just someone to have sex with. I feel the messages she's giving me are contradictory. When she tells me she's sick or tired, my instinct is to ask her what I can do to help because I feel that's a big part of what love is, not 'i don't care if you're sick, i want sex'. And maybe I'm unusual, but I do have self control - I can't really think of anything that I just can't stop myself from doing despite the fact that I want it - I think about others needs in addition to my own and go from there.

[sotired99]

She was a stripper and escort in her early 20s?? And that has nothing to do with things? Interesting..

Again, I might be wrong. But I have a feeling she likes more edgy stuff and since she doesn't get it she's bored and therefore unmotivated for sex. Or maybe as greywolf mentioned, she wants to feel like a sex object and that's why she's not very active.

Would you be keen to open a discussion with her about that?

 

I'm open to talking about anything with her. So far when we've talked about this she's been clear - she feels lonely and criticizes that I don't approach her for sex often enough. Which is what is hard for me to understand, since I've told her a million times how attractive she is to me and that I want her all the time. But, when she says she's not feeling good or that she just needs to go to bed, that to me tells me she is not interested in having sex, so I don't approach her in that way. It's this difficulty I have dealing with this situation that led me to post this thread. When we've talked about her past her opinion on it has been that she thinks men just have needs that have nothing to do with love or relationships and that if that means they need to go out and pay for that, it's fine.

[tiredofvampires]

If she thinks her past is no issue of consequence, maybe she should run that by a couple's therapist, with both of you present -- and let them tell her it has nothing to do with this, is not affecting her, and has no relevance.

 

Your wife is in massive amounts of denial.

 

When you're an escort, obviously you're going to be giving someone sex whether you're tired or not. Your need wouldn't matter to the man. This is how she sees the male sex drive, and doesn't feel comfortable in an arrangement where she has a choice (even though ironically, she's projecting that onto you and scapegoating you by claiming you're "robbing her of the choice".) She's out of her element with a man who actually respects her saying, "Stop. No."

 

The problem you're having with her stems from something really deep-seated related to that period of her life, which harks back to something even farther back. By the time it gets to her mocking you for not being man enough to over-ride her as a pushy, self-entitled guy, I'd say it's time for couples counseling. All cards out on the table, including her past, which she's not bringing up because she knows deep down it's a Pandora's Box.

[greywolf]

It doesn't really make sense to me that if my partner was ready and willing to have sex, and was passionate and enthusiastic about it with me when it happens, why I'd have to invent or exaggerate an obstacle to doing it just so he could exceed all these other displays.

 

 

I get why she'd want to do that, but without communication, it's just not going to work.

 

Most guys are willing to do what women want in bed, they just need encouragement, yet she seems very passive about it.

[tiredofvampires]

I get why she'd want to do that, but without communication, it's just not going to work.

 

Most guys are willing to do what women want in bed, they just need encouragement, yet she seems very passive about it.

 

I don't get the sense that what she's saying is, "Actually, it turns me on when you push yourself on me. That's what I like/want in bed." I get the sense she's saying, "I'm still going to be too tired or too sick to have sex, but I want you to pressure me about it first so that when I say 'no' (and I probably will), at least I'll have known that you were so attracted to me, I had to beat you off with a stick because after all, you're a man, and men are kind of like pigs in that way. When they want sex, nothing can stop them. So be a man, and let me do the deciding whether you touch me or not."

 

Which continues with (I know this sounds dramatic, but I need to be vivid to underscore the psychology), "Wait -- you're not going to even try? What kind of a man are you, then? Real men don't act considerate, so I don't believe you. You must be some kind of sissy. Be pushy so I can turn down your offer, with you being the 'man'. Right now, there's no offer to even turn down."

 

In a sort of upside-down way, I actually think she's treating the OP like an object. In her world, feeling powerful is knowing that you're so irresistible and sexy and beautiful, no man could possibly behave other than to run after you slobbering with his tongue wagging out. It's unimaginable that if you're that hot, a guy won't be an ass. And you've got the power to give them what they want or withhold it.

 

That very much is a stripper mentality/dynamic -- that they control the guy, not the other way around (but obviously, you don't have to be a stripper, or a stripper anymore, to still have the mentality). I don't think this is about what she wants in bed -- it's about what makes her feel powerful, and he's "robbing" her of that feeling when he doesn't act like the crazed sex machine he's supposed to be.

 

If she just wanted to feel dominated in bed and objectified because it was a turn-on, I think it's more likely she would have told him, "but it turns me on that you'd want me that much, even though you're really sweet to me and would stop when I say stop." It doesn't take amazing communication skills to say this. If you appreciate your partner's being gentle and considerate but want him to be just more edgy, that would have come out, I think, even in the most basic communication.

 

She conveyed a different idea altogether. She said she didn't believe that he even meant what he said about wanting to consider her and then goaded him by calling him "gay." That's not passive -- that's passive aggressive. It also seems to me that she's not interested in making this part of a sex role-play type thing; she's interested in going to sleep, but first telling him, "What part of no don't you hear?"

 

Where are his feelings in all this?

 

Sex is not so much about genuinely sharing pleasure or eroticism mutually for her, but her own personal sense of power. He's undermined that by being who he is, and feeling what HE feels. So she's insulted and disrespected him.

 

Maybe she hopes that the more she says she's sick or tired, the more she'll push him over the edge, so she can get what she needs. Not sex. Power. Even the power to upset someone (aka drama) is power, so it's already working.

 

Sorry to put such a bad spin on your wife, OP, but I don't think you know her that well if you didn't even know she was a stripper/escort until midway through her first pregnancy. This relationship is not emotionally open and transparent.

[tiredofvampires]

Btw, OP, if her desires and motivations are more "benign" than I'm presenting, and it really is just a matter of her wanting to be "ravished" and "carried off to the bedroom", it's fairly easy to test. Just do it for a while as she's asking you to. A month or so. And see how many times out of ten it turns into sex, let alone satisfying sex.

 

What you've said about her just lying there passively in missionary letting you do all the work doesn't really scream someone who's into it, so being "ravished" doesn't sound like a huge thrill she's after. I could be wrong.

 

Or my first suggestions, if it's just about this.

 

My guess is you're not going to be happy with the results if she's getting what she wants/needs out of this. And by the time "tests" and guessing is happening (instead of honest communication), it's already not a healthy place to be, so it defeats the purpose a bit.

[RyanJ]

Yes, I think this is it, but it's going to be a challenge for me because it's not that I don't think she's irresistible, but I care about her as a whole person and not just someone to have sex with. I feel the messages she's giving me are contradictory. When she tells me she's sick or tired, my instinct is to ask her what I can do to help because I feel that's a big part of what love is, not 'i don't care if you're sick, i want sex'. And maybe I'm unusual, but I do have self control - I can't really think of anything that I just can't stop myself from doing despite the fact that I want it - I think about others needs in addition to my own and go from there.

 

Caring is great, but women don't usually communicate on a verbal level. You're responding and caring about her being sick when she isn't actually telling you she's sick. You mean what you say on a logical level, she doesn't. If there were a universally translated transcript of your interaction, I imagine it would go like this:

 

" I want to have sex with you."

" I'm not going to make it that easy. I want you to prove how much you want me by overcoming my token resistance."

" Your resistance confuses me. Let's not have sex."

[tiredofvampires]

Caring is great, but women don't usually communicate on a verbal level.

 

That's not true, though (you also said they don't communicate "logically", above, which is equally untrue.)

 

As a matter of fact, it is well-known that verbal skills in females develop sooner than in males. Developmentally, girls start talking sooner than boys as toddlers and throughout life, as a very GENERAL rule, women come out stronger in verbal abilities and men in spatial ones.

 

It's even reached the realm of comedy how women are always and forever wanting to "talk about it", while men are not. It's partly socialization, but partly the hardwiring -- parts of the brain developed in both sexes. Women bond by talking to one another; men bond by doing physical things together. So it's hardly true that verbal activity isn't front and center in a woman's world.

 

Women interpret words differently than men, and the sexes communicate differently, that's true. But that's not to say women don't communicate on a verbal level.

 

The books by Deborah Tannen are good ones about communication differences between men and women (John Gray is good as well, but a bit too "pop psych" for me; though he's the one who made famous "the cave" where men go until they're ready to open up to the talking/verbalizing women want to do.)

 

A good link of Deborah Tannen:

 

link removed

[sotired99]

Yeah, I'm with you on this. Other relationships I've been I feel my partners communicated with me logically verbally, which is why I've been taking her at her word. Not saying it's been working in this situation, but it hadn't occurred to me that she was being illogical communicating with me verbally on purpose with some other motive behind it instead.

[DN]

Here's a thought - why can't people just say what they mean? The responsibility for clear communication is on the person speaking and if they aren't clear then it is their fault and their fault alone if they are misunderstood.

 

This is why human beings developed language - not so people can play silly verbal games and then whine about being misunderstood or other people 'not picking up on their signals'.

 

Grown-ups need to act like grown-ups.

[pl3asehelp]

Here's a thought - why can't people just say what they mean? The responsibility for clear communication is on the person speaking and if they aren't clear then it is their fault and their fault alone if they are misunderstood.

 

This is why human beings developed language - not so people can play silly verbal games and then whine about being misunderstood or other people 'not picking up on their signals'.

 

Grown-ups need to act like grown-ups.

 

I agree and operate that way myself, but since not all do, I think it behooves one to find ways to deal with those that don't. People are a mixed bag and for all the great qualities someone may have, they can have a deficiency like this so sometimes you may need to allow for a gap like this and learn to accommodate if it can be done reasonably.

[DN]

I agree and operate that way myself, but since not all do, I think it behooves one to find ways to deal with those that don't. People are a mixed bag and for all the great qualities someone may have, they can have a deficiency like this so sometimes you may need to allow for a gap like this and learn to accommodate if it can be done reasonably.

Except when the failure of your partner to communicate clearly becomes a major problem and you are the one accused of being at fault. In that case it's better to move on and simplify your life.