Ways to Tell if A Man is a Pick-Up Artist Con

[LaKings55]

Just for kicks, I asked my sister what I should say to a woman when I walk up to her. She said something like just be honest and ask her for her #. Needless to say that didn't work, lol. And then one time my sister and I went out to a club together , and a guy hit on her, and basically did what she had told me to do. And guess what, didn't work, lol.

[FathomFear]

There's always going to be a difference between theory and practice. I don't think this area is any different. The problem stems from the fact that we try to rationalize something (sexual attraction) which isn't dictated or born out of a thought process. So people often find themselves not following their own advice, falling in love with people they said they wouldn't, etc.

[LaKings55]

Exactly, so sitting here saying you wouldn't fall for a guy using a "PUA" method, or saying they're completely wrong, etc is foolish to a large extent, because hardly anyone can truly say how they'll react in a given situation. People try to develop plans in the event that their house catches on fire, then if it does happen, they wig out and jump through a window. Everything is situational, and depending on the "system" a guy is attempting to use, or follow dating advice, you will either be creeped out, attracted, or indifferent. Everyone uses something, everyone uses a prepared method, line. They think out the clothes they will wear, the perfume/cologne, etc. The second you go out in public, especially with the intent of meeting someone, you become an actor of sorts, and we all do it, men/women. It's part of the mating "ritual" and it happens every second of every day accross the world for nearly every living creature. Why are female birds attracted to the most colorful males? Why do male mammals fight each other over females? Nearly everything humans do in trying to get a partner, or even just meet members of the opposite sex, or in some cases the same sex, is done with the mindset of creating value. Whether it's dressing well, getting a new haircut, speaking with confidence, flashing an expensive watch, showing cleavage, it doesn't matter. It's all part of the "Look at me! Choose me!" mentality. True, these systems are praying on men's fears that they're not good enough, that there is this whole science to attracting women, but they also teach men to get over rejection, to become confident around women, and people in general. That, I don't think is ever a bad thing.

[Lonewing]

PUA basically appear to be the perfect guy when they pick you up, but they are to women as strippers are to men; they're offering one thing, but they're taking another. It's larceny, pure and simple.

 

The people who don't work to get to know their date before htey start dating thier date are the ones who will het hit by these people time and time and time again.

 

If you don't have the time and patience to just be friends for months or years before seriously dating, you probably shouldn't be seeking a monogomous partner. It's not saying you'll actually take that time, if the right person comes along, but this is what it takes to hedge your bets against this kind of behavior. Yes, there are some PUA who like such challenge, but few do.

 

And if you're looking at the person you're going to spend the rest of your life with, then there's no rush to start getting serious - unless you want to end up in a seriously screwed up situation very quickly. AKA, you didn't Know your partner before you said "I Do."

 

If anyhting, a lotta people get too serious too fast, hence why things burn out so quick - and then there are thers who expect it to go so quick so soon, which helps nothing...ugh.

[timlondon]

If you don't have the time and patience to just be friends for months or years before seriously dating, you probably shouldn't be seeking a monogomous partner.

 

...and meanwhile, in the real world...

[Alezia]

I've also been told off for holding the door when I was coming out of a store, because she can "get the door her d***self" I was just being polite, I know I hate it when someone just lets the door swing in on me, so I hold it for others. I do it for men, women, kids, doesn't matter, it's just common courtesy. Yet some women have taken it as chivalry when I do it for them.

 

That's funny. All I think of is - hihi, he wants to look at my ass without getting caught. If the guy is remotely good looking, I find it hot. It may be completely off, but it's still a fun scenario

[Alezia]

I think there are some truths to this whole PUA thing, but a lot of the advice is pushed to the other extreme. Perhaps it's done so the shy guys will land on the happy medium of the spectrum - but who knows.

 

Guys who cling on to you exclusively and ignore others at all cost at an event are a burden. Guys who flirt sexually with every walking women at the party is not attractive. A guy who mingles with others and can make them laugh, is hot.

 

If a guy can't hold a decent conversation with you, and all he keeps doing is complimenting what you are wearing - get out of the date! That's pretty much all I figured out.

[galaxy71]

You make it sound like that women lose something when they have sex with a guy they like outside of a relationship. It's all a game where some devious, manipulative, smooth guy uses every technique and tactic in the book to seduce some pure, innocent, chaste woman. PUAs want sex, while most women want to be in a relationship and raise a family. You make it sound like most seductions involving a cold approach involve scheming villians like the ones you see in the movie Cruel Intentions. In reality, both men and women like to have sex. I remember this one thread where this guy complained about how this girl he liked left this social with this guy who had a reputation of being a player. A lot of women are perfectly happy being FWBs who are not interested in a relationship. Men and women have been going to bars and nightclubs for one night stands long before PUAs existed. My friend's uncle hooked up with a lot of women that he met at bars during the 1980s. PUAs model themselves after guys like my friend's uncle.

 

Your use of the word of 'scam' is pretty strong. It implies a calculated, intentional deception that involves stealing other people's money. I think you are discouraging guys from using PUA materials to improve themselves. Not every introverted guy wants to spend the rest of his life being socially awkward. Not all guys consider it a badge of honor to be that nice guy that women would never consider as a lover. While you pat yourself on the back for being a good guy, other guys actually want to improve themselves instead of remaining that quiet guy who is standing in the corner of the room because he is uncomfortable around new people. On the flip side, do women want to get approached by boring, needy guys who have no clue on how to act around women. Don't women want to date guys who take care of their appearance and are comfortable in social situations. Under your line of thinking, women would rather have fun rejecting socially awkward guys than dating guys who actually improved themselves.

[GhostRocket]

I don't know what kind of girls you guys are going after, but if a guy came up to me (and didn't look creepy but like a decent guy) and said 'hey, you look great I'd like to take you out on a date', I would def go out with him. I've met guys on trains, buses, and even airplanes this way. But if some dude was talking to me, and then left to pay attention to other girls and then tried to ask me out.. forget it!

 

I don't know you obviously, but I have a very hard time believing that from any woman that says it. Why? Because I've been there. I've said he exact same thing several times to several different types of women. Didn't work. I've seen other guys say the exact same thing to several different types of women. Nothing. Some that have taken the attitude you are now "Oh yeah I would definitely go out with a guy that simply came up to me and gave me a nice compliment anyone else would". This is why men resort to doing things like this. Because it's a lot harder for men to get a girl than vice versa. You're really telling me that if I came up to you and simply asked you to go out with me you'd say yes? Even though you don't know who I am at all? You would definitely be the exception to the rule if you are indeed telling the truth.

[GhostRocket]

Oh my goodness I'm getting the feeling that some women here are just ticked that PUA is actually successful for a lot of men that actually do it, and they just don't want to admit to it. It's funny because I don't see men complaining accross America about women that wear too much cleavage, smell nice, or wear high heels. Same exact thing. Just another method of attracting the opposite sex. Like I said when it comes down to it, PUA is simple conversation. It's a method for guys to feel more confident via chrasmatic techniques. That's it! There is no scam or trickery here. The ball is still in a woman's court. No one is forcing women to do anything.

[GhostRocket]

Hi GhostRocket, I think it depends on how far one goes in hitting on women who are not the REAL target which would determine how it rates in creepiness. That's different to somebody who is just friendly to everyone. Not sure if I have explained myself well enough.

 

Based on what I've learned and saw, that is what it is. Conversing with others and not just one specific person and making your intentions obvious. No one is out to make people feel terrible. Let's not forget that women actually participate in PUA too.

[LaKings55]

Based on what I've learned and saw, that is what it is. Conversing with others and not just one specific person and making your intentions obvious. No one is out to make people feel terrible. Let's not forget that women actually participate in PUA too.

 

Yeah, except if they go up to 9/10 guys, and they themselves are "hot" and just say "let's go back to my place" 9/10 guys will go for it. LOL That's all they have to do for PUA

[GhostRocket]

Yeah, except if they go up to 9/10 guys, and they themselves are "hot" and just say "let's go back to my place" 9/10 guys will go for it. LOL That's all they have to do for PUA

 

Yeah pretty much.

[Lonewing]

You have obviously missed the boat and ran right out over the pier...

 

This blog was started by a girl who wishes to AVOID the PUA. And the girl who should avoid a PUA is first and primarily any girl who is seeking a monogomous relaitonship - this is the kind of guy who will ruin her character - and character is a very real, very malleable entity. It can be changed. Now This girl may very well enjoy casual sex, but she enjoys on her terms - she doesn't like being manipulated. NO body like being manipulated.

 

The PUA is a strategy designed to use a girl to the guy's delight for as long as he desires, and then dump her as he wishes. It is a very devaluating method when you get to the base of it. And it has nothing to do with any of the ideas you expound in your post. It's about USING PEOPLE, plain and simple.

 

And it IS a scam. Because while she's thinking he's into her and maybe even thinking about a future, he's just using her - and THAT is a lie no girl wants to hear - that she's just being used for sex. That's not a mutual relationship - that larceny.

 

It's a scam because it's built up upon what girls hate most: Dishonesty. Regardless of what you do, your relationships made using this system will not last - and they can't. Once people realize you're a liar or a talented counterfeit, a fraud, or a plagerist, you have to find a new crowd.

 

Girls, the best way to avoid a pickup artist is to re-evaluate the artists you or your friends have fallen for in the past - those guys you've slept with and never heard from again.

 

In short, they use everything you WANT to see in a "perfect guy" and before you know it, you've been used for a day, a week, a month, a few years - andhten dropped, or it never goes further than sex. Yes, some girls like being FWB, but I think if you go deeper, you'll find a very high number of them are hoping "he'll change his mind some day about not being "too serious" and say "will you marry me."

 

For these girls, PUA and the whole open sex scene is a colassal waste of time and life they could be better applying towards their pursuit of a real partner - and when I mean a real partner, I mean someone who is actually there for them as they are back.

 

If you think using people is a way to improve yourself and become more attractive, I'm sorry you have developed such a poor system of ethics to not even recognize that which you sow.

 

None of this has to do with being socially awkward or boring or any of those other characterists you think these 'nice guys' have. I've met Very Nice guys who are charistmatic, loyal, and very socially extroverted - and sorry ladies, they're married. For a reason. Unlike a pickup artist, they're genuine. And unlike all the "realworld" people, they're willing to take the time necessary to invest in their partner to get where they want to be together.

 

It can be done. You don't have to be someone you're not to get a great woman in your life. If anything, the PUA concept will get you someone you DON'T wnat in your life, even though you've thought your whole life THAT is what she LOOKS like - and this PUA method does sadly work on her and well. but like I've said, it doesn't build a relationship that lasts. If she does like you, there's going to be a crash where the relaitonship goes back to zero, as she discovers who you really are, and then you spend the next countless months and years rebuilding yourself in her image. Most women drop you that instant they discover the truth.

 

You can't build true love upon a lie.

[Lonewing]

Yeah, except if they go up to 9/10 guys, and they themselves are "hot" and just say "let's go back to my place" 9/10 guys will go for it. LOL That's all they have to do for PUA

 

oh, silly boys...I don't think you comprehend Female PUA one bit...

 

Here you are thinking SEX is the end Goal. While this may be true for a male, sex is something a hot female can get anytime, anywhere, with just about anybody she wants to get it from. In short, for such a female, it's not worth much.

 

The name of Female PUA Game is to get as much out of you as they can...giving something which you want, and it may be a mutual want - sex, while pretending to be giving something else - interest in a relaitonship, for example. So in short, they're having their cake and eating it too, and then when they've had their fill they move to the next victim.

 

They pretend they like you, when what they're after is gifts, meals, apartments, cars, and any number of the things guys will lavish onto a girl they think is seriously into them. The sex part is really non-issue to them - they enjoy it, or they only let it out when they want something. Or they have a couple regular guys they like on the side who they use for sex, who are being led on as much as they are, or who are their main "open relationship." Or they play coy about it, and simply go on lots and lots of first dates - aka a Free Meal and an hour's worth of entertainment to gossip about with their fellow PUA girlfriends later.

 

It's no less manipulative as Male PUA, except the whole goal of male PUA is to have sex. The goal of Female PUA is to Have a Good Time. On YOUR dime! And then leave when it's time.

 

PUA is a very dark side of humanity. The fact that so many people hold it so high is a serious sign of the integrity of our culture. Seriously, can you trust a person who will take a girl out on a couple dates, express "genuine" interest in being a potential long term partner, and then dump her once he's had as much sex as he desires with her? A human without integrity is not worth the very dirt one walks upon.

[LaKings55]

All true...to an extent, but let's not forget that some of these "systems" stem from PUA, and are geared towards men who actually want a relationship, but again lack confidence on how to even approach women to begin a conversation. So, as I've said before, it all depends on intent. If you're intent is to just get as many women into bed as possible, then it's a scam. If you're intent is to get that initial window of opportunity with a woman you have a legitimate interest in, then I don't see the issue. Let's say you've been working with a girl for a while. You may have talked a couple times, or maybe you've just admired her from a distance. She seems like a genuinely nice, intelligent, social person, but you view yourself as a shy, awkward, for all intents and purposes nerd. You start reading things like Double your Dating or Dating to Relating, and you realize you need to work on your confidence, you need to learn how to not be creepy or shy. You then take what you learn, and decide to go for it. Your approach is calm, open, sincere. You get the date, and then another, and another, and you live happily ever after. Would you still consider those "systems" a scam? Would that guy still have gotten a date if he hadn't attempted to improve himself, and not talk to this woman in a bumbling, unsure, uncomfortable fashion? Maybe, but again, one's intentions are all that really matter here. I think most intelligent girls can pick out "players," just as any man with half-a brain can sniff out the "gold-diggers" and one's looking for a meal-ticket.

[LaKings55]

oh, silly boys...I don't think you comprehend Female PUA one bit...

 

 

I figured a woman using her own methods of being a PUA for a free-ride was implied. Your missing the main point here. A man who desires nothing but sex would either need a lot of money, or would have to use one of these systems like "Mystery Method" to accomplish such a goal. Whereas a woman could merely choose a man if she desired a meaningless fling, as you agreed with in your response to my post. But once again, you're missing a sub-section of society who believe these systems will help them put their best foot forward in attracting a mate. Now, there are many alternatives to attraction methods, such as choosing groups that fit your interests and hoping to meet someone there, but a substantial amount of people do not have many friends, are fairly anti-social, and generally know that they must do something to help bring about the change they need to attract a mate. Essentially, all I'm saying is that there are men and women out there who turn to methods, hoping it will bring a mate into their lives. Now, whether or not they work, or whether someone can successfully transition into a LTR is up for debate. As you said, sticking strictly to these methods will certainly not work in the long run, and I don't know anyone who can pretend to be something they're not for the rest of their lives, but why should anyone pretend? If you read these, and you decide that you're not going to be a player, but you will work on your conversation skills, your appearance, your body language, and general confidence, then I think only good can come out of it. For me personally, I've had buddies give me some of these materials, and I thought most of them were just common sense, but I can see where some guys would think this is the word of god. Trust me, I've met guys who would never have gotten a girlfriend without actually reading these, deciding they would go out and meet women, and shedding their nervous exteriors. Frankly, these guys seemed to have thought that at some point a woman would just fall out of the sky and into their lives. Well, it doesn't work that way. You have to go out and meet women, engage them, and actually date a few in order to find that special someone. I absolutely agree with your points about players, and integrity and all that great stuff, but once again, everyone seems to assume that any guy out there who is actively trying to meet women must be a sleaze. Sadly, most of these men are just looking for someone to love, and they get a bad rep because of the jerks.

[Lonewing]

Oh my goodness I'm getting the feeling that some women here are just ticked that PUA is actually successful for a lot of men that actually do it, and they just don't want to admit to it. It's funny because I don't see men complaining accross America about women that wear too much cleavage, smell nice, or wear high heels. Same exact thing. Just another method of attracting the opposite sex. Like I said when it comes down to it, PUA is simple conversation. It's a method for guys to feel more confident via chrasmatic techniques. That's it! There is no scam or trickery here. The ball is still in a woman's court. No one is forcing women to do anything.

 

How many men do you find complaining, though, about black widows and the women who hang around for a couple dates or months of expensive fun and then disappear? You don't see women accross the country complaining about guys who buy them dinner, chauffeur them around town in their fancy cars, take them to shows [for free] and other such bemusement.

 

Now what you do see are women who proclaim up front "I am not impressed by your money." But what they are impressed by is what necessitates a money STREAM to keep running. And you do see men proclaiming up front that they aren't impressed by a beautiful body - though not as common, and whenever you see it it's usually padded with 'a beautiful body alone.' So they want the body, but htey want the character too.

 

All the same game...

[Lonewing]

If your latter defense of the system is the purpose guys should look into this, they would be far better off served by going to Amazon and loading up the 1 and 2 star comments for guidance on selecting a self help dating book. The fact of the matter is, this system is not built upon integrity, and no matte rhow hard you try to bend the liedown into a truth, it's still a lie. No bueno.

[Lonewing]

The thing is, the people who these books are aimed at will end up far off worse than they started. 1), women recognize the Game, and are getting better at recognizing it. 2), it would do many people well to examine the background of these people in the first place. Strauss convieninetly leaves out his designer clothes, fancy pads, expensive cars and other things which in essence make the Game work. Those playing the game successfully never needed this book to play it - they've been playing it for years. If anything, this book is designed to set the awkward up for even darker social jokes.

 

Actively trying to meet a girl is not the premise of the Game. The Game's premise is to invent a phony self by which you can get laid and often. While there may be shreds of these ideas within the Game, there are far better resources out there for such guys. The game itself should be regarded like gambling - it's for entertainment value only, but it is not an investment strategy.

[Silverbirch]

Thank you Lonewig,

You have actually nailed it as far as my purposes for the posting, and I just wish to clarify though that I do not want, and will not have casual sex. I have actually had 2 RELATIONSHIPS with men who I believe did know how to attract women - both very different types of men in many ways - at least superficially - but I think now that they have some understanding and skills - as many people would have - in gaining trust and a false sense of connection with women. I don't want to keep making that mistake over and over in my life. In both cases I was pursued for quite a reasonable period of time by both men, but I am no longer naeve enough to believe that I was the only woman they were pursuing. I think for both men, sex was one of the things they wanted, but I think that they also wanted other social and financial benefits, and were both on the scene for several years.

 

I suspect that Lonewig has a much better understanding of the type of "scamming" I am referring to. I'm not trying to be patronising here, but I think it could be that because some of the people on the thread are still in their 20's, they likely have not knowingly yet come into personal contact with people who seek out members of the opposite sex for a lot more fringe benefits than sex.

 

Are we on the same page Lonewig?

[GhostRocket]

How many men do you find complaining, though, about black widows and the women who hang around for a couple dates or months of expensive fun and then disappear? You don't see women accross the country complaining about guys who buy them dinner, chauffeur them around town in their fancy cars, take them to shows [for free] and other such bemusement.

 

Now what you do see are women who proclaim up front "I am not impressed by your money." But what they are impressed by is what necessitates a money STREAM to keep running. And you do see men proclaiming up front that they aren't impressed by a beautiful body - though not as common, and whenever you see it it's usually padded with 'a beautiful body alone.' So they want the body, but htey want the character too.

 

All the same game...

 

What I'm talking about is getting a person's foot in the door. What are you arguing? I'm saying PUA is just a form of attracting the opposite sex. It's just as much deception as perfume and earrings are. The points you made are irrelevant.

[GhostRocket]

Yeah too bad lasting relationships have already happened with tons of people that have participated in PUA. You should go look up Adam Lyons. Review his story. He's happily married. His wife even helps promote his PUA business and is good at it herself too. Not to mention a ton of other folks who have successfully had long lasting relationships. PUA is simply conversation. I'm sure there are some scumbags out there that are just out for "hit it and quit it", but you can say that about anyone regardless if PUA even existed. Trickery is not exclusive to PUA, nor is it it's main agenda. A bunch of people wouldn't be participate if all they wanted to do was hurt people's feelings over and over again. That would get old fast. Women do the same thing to. So let's stop with the "victim" card.

[GhostRocket]

I want everyone that has this ridiculous negative bias against PUA, or rather "The Community" to watch this video on Adam Lyons, considered to be the number one pick up artist on the planet. Especially around the 5:15 mark if you just want to hear about the "negative" perception of PUA. He addresses this topic and more.

 

[LaKings55]

And yet once again Lonewing, you fail to meet me even halfway. I bring up "attraction/dating guides" that some would confuse with PUA, though they are not actually geared towards that and are actually just like the self-help dating books you just described, since the advice is basically the same. Yet you bring up Mystery Method and The Game. A sad argument indeed. Ghostrocket's link to Adam Lyons' video. Frankly, I sense a lot of people here being uncomfortable with the thought of men becoming more observant and intuned with themselves and the opposite sex. It's definitely starting to feel like once people get into the victim mentality, or in this case women being used by a few jerks, then they refuse to see any points in what the other side says. So, that said I'm walking away from this thread, because the same things have been said over and over on both sides. Basically, out of all these posts, we have two main points of view.

 

1. PUA's are scum who want to use women for sex, and any man using these are bound to fail

2. There are plenty of men using attraction and dating guides that are similar in nature, but far different in intention