Shy guys.... feeling intimidated and subtle hints being lost on you not helping?

[FrogIsFree]

What struck me most about what you have described is how you really feel about him - whatever else has happened:

 

he's special.

 

then finally you said:

 

Why was he telling me all that?

 

the amount of effort he has made to share details of what he is up to and where - guys who don't like you/aren't interested, don't bother going to that trouble, honestly! It's like when a guy is dating a girl & tells another girl: "I am in a relationship" and they're like: "no!!!!!, you don't say?!!!!!!" - they suddenly `spell stuff out' randomly, leaving you wondering why he thinks you need to know! It's a classic case of: I want to see your reaction mixed with feelings of guilt that they shouldn't be liking you but I feel guilty about it.. low and behold a few months later they split up and he is giving massive signs he likes you + suddenly it all makes sense!

So again, why is he telling you? because wanted you to know where he is..!![/b]

You might want to pipe in with something like: "I was thinking about going there _________this weekend or whenever it is)..

I think your bold to ask him out, I thought from your other post you were scared but if you feel you can handle it.., it's not for me to sway you either way..!

[celsiana]

Oh yeah I forgot another bit to the same conversation a few weeks ago - he was going on about how he now gets out of work at 7pm three nights a week. He used to get out at 11pm last year, then 9pm this past summer. I leave at 3.30pm... I wondered about that info, too. lol

 

Not sayin' I can ask him out, just sayin' I know I should. LOL

 

Thank you for reading all that, Frog. I know I should make my own thread, but -- I really need to just stop pondering and do something. I've dated a lot over the years, but he makes me so nervous!!

 

Okay, am shushing up now.

[FrogIsFree]

Oh yeah I forgot another bit to the same conversation a few weeks ago - he was going on about how he now gets out of work at 7pm three nights a week. He used to get out at 11pm last year, then 9pm this past summer. I leave at 3.30pm... I wondered about that info, too. lol

 

- there you go. it's like piecing a jigsaw together isn't it. I feel really positive about this guy for you.

 

Not sayin' I can ask him out, just sayin' I know I should. LOL

 

- ha ha ha! Yes, we all know how easy that one is to say but not do!!

 

Thank you for reading all that, Frog. I know I should make my own thread, but -- I really need to just stop pondering and do something. I've dated a lot over the years, but he makes me so nervous!!

 

hmmmm - nervous, ey? - sure sign! You wouldn't get nervous if it was just something and nothing + that's how I started out with this guy.. I was so dumb, not seeing the changes in myself or the blatant signs in him!!!! Crumbs, took me a while to wake up + fathom it!! and you were right about yourself.. if you get nervous + he has patiently done this all this time, letting you know when he's working ..(that above there is very detailed by the way! ??) then hello?! (mean that kindly!)

 

You could start a new thread.. but I think what you have posted on this one is relevant, because it's all about the signs.. a lot of the responses show how we are so blind on either side to seeing how much somebody likes us ..and is patiently trying to tell us! Says a lot about a guy to persevere like that

 

.. taking the soft - not blatant, in your face `ask out' approach on both sides might be about fear but can also be an indication of how kind and thoughtful this person is - I wouldnt want to change that about my guy (even if it used to frustrate me, because it makes him who he is and why I have the feelings I do for him) and is also about us allowing our softer sides to show and not being afraid of being hurt - going through this process with this person that approaches gently so we can recognise when another human being appreciates us.., we can be so down on ourselves that we can't see we could be liked so much by somebody else or we have been blinded by not having someone like that in our lives before this person comes along and shows us we are valued and meant for more than say being taken for granted, or mistreated, or whatever the case may be.

The door is really our awareness and our minds and hearts opening up to the possibilities..

(That nervous is indicative of how big this potential is for change in us).

What we do with those possibilities depends on how prepared we are to embrace change!! ..it's always scary, but ultimately could bring us great peace, joy and fulfillment in our lives.

[Spacecapsule]

I am going to toss this in also. Many shy guys (notably myself) take a lot of goading before we take the initiative. I think this is due to, in part, not wanting to seem aggressive or needy. Just today I was in a situation where I could have easily asked a girl to lunch and I am 80% confident she would have went. I just did not want to seem like a horn dog. I know that it was just a non formal lunch date, but I think shy guys always regress to super nice guy syndrome.

 

By no means scientific just my observation

[FrogIsFree]

I am going to toss this in also. Many shy guys (notably myself) take a lot of goading before we take the initiative. I think this is due to, in part, not wanting to seem aggressive or needy. Just today I was in a situation where I could have easily asked a girl to lunch and I am 80% confident she would have went. I just did not want to seem like a horn dog. I know that it was just a non formal lunch date, but I think shy guys always regress to super nice guy syndrome.

 

By no means scientific just my observation

 

- scientific isn't necessary! Your feelings, thoughs and experience are invaluable.. thank you for posting that.

Regards: horn dog.. I got this impression from my guy that this was the case??!!

I was seriously confused but then realised I think the same way - obviously not horn dog..!! but it did remind me that the only reason I was so mortified when I intiated the last conversation was because neither did I want to be in any way aggressive, needy and - in my case come accross as an oversexed nymphomaniac "man-eater"! Crackers idea really, ..but there it is!

 

Like that expression: "super-nice syndrom" - well maybe we have finer feelings and some more - what are considered more traditional and old-fashioned ideas about, dare I say it, `courtship'! ha ha ha ha

 

or perhaps.. it's just a lack of confidence!

[Lonewing]

Hey, I'll be honest, it would be super nice to find a nice sweet gentle loyal nympho.

 

It's hard balancing NOT being like all of them and still recognizing this deeper inner need for physical connection...We want it ALL, not just the little parts those other boys want...but then again, we don't want too much either - over the top has it's limit too!!!

[bmews]

- scientific isn't necessary! Your feelings, thoughs and experience are invaluable.. thank you for posting that.

Regards: horn dog.. I got this impression from my guy that this was the case??!!

I was seriously confused but then realised I think the same way - obviously not horn dog..!! but it did remind me that the only reason I was so mortified when I intiated the last conversation was because neither did I want to be in any way aggressive, needy and - in my case come accross as an oversexed nymphomaniac "man-eater"! Crackers idea really, ..but there it is!

 

Like that expression: "super-nice syndrom" - well maybe we have finer feelings and some more - what are considered more traditional and old-fashioned ideas about, dare I say it, `courtship'! ha ha ha ha

 

or perhaps.. it's just a lack of confidence!

 

Everyone has different lovemaps. If you are certain beyond a reasonable doubt that the guy has real feelings for you, then perhaps on some subconscious level it is his secret fantasy for YOU to chase him. This conjecture is not entirely implausible, especially if he knows or has reason to know that you may feel the same way towards him.

 

 

He would want YOU to make the move and chase after him because :

 

1) it would give him the preponderance of evidence he requires to truly feel safe with allowing his heart to fall for you and open up and truly be vulnerable and free. Indeed, to the extent that he perceives himself to be inadequate for you, he requires this extra incremental safety margin in order to move forward and progress. He might think to himself, if you love him enough to overlook all his other shortcomings, why not take this one last step and put him out of his misery of uncertainty and hesitation?

 

2) it is a method by which he is also testing himself. He may not want to jump into a relationship so hastily, perhaps especially since it is so new and exciting for him. Paradoxically, the stronger he feels for you, the more cautious he may be. He feels like it is all a dream and he is afraid that anything he does might shatter that dream and he will wake up from it. He also wants this gray area to provide him the time and shelter and to allow himself to be sure of his feelings and his convictions towards you. If he commits to making a bold move, he wants to make triple sure what he has with you is "real".

 

3) maybe he is doing the honorable thing and feels that he is not really "good enough" for you (regardless of whether or not you think this is true) and simply is giving you enough time to "wake up to your senses", so in the interim he is protecting himself. Yes he may realize you have given him plenty of green lights, but perhaps he also dreads that one day you could lose interest, and if he was fallen head over heels in love with you... well, then he can't take that risk can he?

 

4) it is his fantasy for his "dream girl" to chase after him, and seeing you so helplessly in love with him on your own volition and with no encouragement from himself could very well be the pinnacle point of highest form of basking in love. Every shy guy's ultimate fantasy is for his dream girl to chase after him with all that she has, to love him, love him with every ounce of her soul. It is a healing, protective and dreamlike state of bliss that he wants to experience, and he is waiting for YOU to shower your kindness and love unto him.

 

 

We all know the initial stages of the process of falling in love is most delicious, so perhaps he wants to slow down, enjoy the moment, or prologue the "agony" (pleasure)?

 

In any case, it is not as simple as "red light", "green light". This is not an exercise in stage-gating, you aren't launching a rocket. In his insecurity, he knows that just because he passed "stage three" it doesn't mean things won't revert back to "stage two" or that you won't get cold feet and hit the "mission abort" button. And it is certainly no guarantee that he will get to "stage four".

 

Some ambiguity is needed, (the amount usually commensurate with his perceived inequity in the relationship) not because people want to play games, but perhaps sometimes we aren't even sure ourselves what we really want. If you truly view him as "equals", then why not allow him the space to be indecisive? If in his mental model he has reserved for you the space to change your mind, why not give him the same courtesy? It seems like you are tacitly implying something along these lines : "I'm pretty girl who is bending down to love a shy and average guy and I'm giving him the Green Light and wow I can't believe he is STILL not taking the initiative?!"

 

My advice is for you to pursue him as "very good best friends", vigorously and fervently. Make him, and make yourself, fall in love with him through FRIENDSHIP. Don't pressure him, don't try to make it formal. A label is just a label. Drop the need for titles and roles. You can in every other sense be dating him but still call it friendship. And then one day he'll wake up and realize you are the real deal. He'll smack himself on the head and wonder out loud why he never saw this coming before. He won't want to let you out of his sight ever again. I'm sure this is what he really wants, and if you REALLY LOVE him, the true love kind of love, I'm sure you will do whatever it takes to help him see just how much you do love him.

[Lonewing]

Oh yeah I forgot another bit to the same conversation a few weeks ago - he was going on about how he now gets out of work at 7pm three nights a week. He used to get out at 11pm last year, then 9pm this past summer. I leave at 3.30pm... I wondered about that info, too. lol

 

Not sayin' I can ask him out, just sayin' I know I should. LOL

 

Thank you for reading all that, Frog. I know I should make my own thread, but -- I really need to just stop pondering and do something. I've dated a lot over the years, but he makes me so nervous!!

 

Okay, am shushing up now.

 

 

No shushing up now, celsiana!! You have to sieze the initiative where he's dropping the hints! Just like what Froggie suggested!!! Take the subtle hint out of it and make it plain! the worse that could happen is he says "no, I'm not interested!" You still have precisely what you had before!

 

"Oh, you're free after 7? What are you planning around 8? Oh, I'm not doing anything. I usually eat dinner...don't know where though, my refrigerator is a bit on the light side at the moment..." If you know what I mean. Do SOMETHING to show him you're interested - but the main thing, is the words have to be clear - and he has to get what you're saying. The coolest part is, you CAN do this!!!

 

How do I know/ becasue I'm the same way - but I broke my ice, in my life, and I overcame it. Froggie too - and now you! I'll tell you, it's very hard to do, but if you put it all together [yes, a jigsaw puzzle!] you CAN make it happen. Where's that equation I put together from before, AHA!

 

Success = Skill + Confidence + Initiative + Appearance + Timing + Compatibility + Courage + Genetics.

 

You have skill, you use it every day - so confidence in your skill sis no doubt there too. I'm sure your appearance is no issue; compatibility, well, you're already on a talking relationship. And genetics goes with appearance here, you already kinda like each other - your hunch, at least!! That leaves three elements left: Initiative, timing, and courage!!! You're going to have to come up with a plan of action, time it, and then put it into action. You might as well be singing the national anthem on public TV, it's no different!! The beauty is, you CAN do it - you jus gotta think it through until you have your actions so well predetermined that your mind will have no chance to make you run away!! And that's it!

 

The best of luck to you!!

[Lonewing]

Bmews, I'm bemused and this is sound advice within the traditional Canon, but this is 2010, and further, we no longer have much time to languish in these early hours of the romance. In fact, most of us have lost countless chapeters in our love lifes for having sat back and watched. No, today it is time for the woman to be men, so as to tackle the men who are women, so that the heart may be whole once again!! And it is time for all people, be they man or woman to stand up and come right out and tell the other person in the relationship "I want YOU!!" And for some of us, this will be the end of our coldwar. For others, well, it won't happen with this one, butthe practice will be valuable research to put into action with the next!!

[FrogIsFree]

I am..

certain beyond a reasonable doubt that (the) this guy has real feelings for me (you)

 

- however, I don't have any secret fantasies about it!! I am just doing what is necessary because I love him and am prepared to show him how much and that I don't take him for granted for one moment.

 

He would want YOU to make the move and chase after him

 

- he has only recently had the evidence from me that he requires to truly feel safe with allowing his heart to 'fall for me and open up and truly be vulnerable and free'

 

- but as is our nature, he requires a little more each day to `take that plunge'!

..this is reasonable, necessary and I am he is seeing me that he is safe to do this.

 

..the extent that he perceives himself to be inadequate for you, he requires this extra incremental safety margin in order to move forward and progress.

 

He might think to himself, if you love him enough to overlook all his other shortcomings, why not take this one last step and put him out of his misery of uncertainty and hesitation?

]

 

- because it's a two-way street, and has to be done in incremental steps by both of us ..you see, all the things that you have pondered on about him are true of me.. We share the same level of nervousness (though with different reasons for this, they amount to the same results in terms of our apprehensions and nervousness).

 

I can see that he is more than `keen to jump into a relationship' with me! That's what made me want to run for the hills, but I wanted to run because he is exactly who I wanted to be with and then here he is, in my life and I could not believe it.. he is not in any sort of mental `observational' state that he feels he needs to savour the stages in any way, he is simply well and truly head over heels but is treading carefully because he doesn't want to scare me off! From later posts you will see it had nothing to do with just giving him GREEN LIGHTS but more to do with not giving confused signals out of defensiveness but instead trusting him to get closer and in his own way because his own way is the best method he could have chosen, like a human approaching a wild deer - I am definitely that deer!

 

He knows what he has with me is real.. What he is wholly concerned with at this point I have discovered is that

 

he is afraid that anything he does might shatter that dream and he will wake up from it.

by his own misjudged, mistimed error!

 

- he is trying to make sure that any action he takes is perfect.. perfectly done, perfectly timed and perfectly received!

Call him unrealistic but I am very moved by this thinking in him and it means the world to me.

It confirms his romantic outlook that made us draw closer together week by week in the first place..

 

In never doubted him for a even a moment - I had no need to "wake up to my senses", I accepted him for the way he is from the first moment and this has remained consistently true and I have no doubts about it remaining true going forward.

 

Now you really have hit on something here:

 

perhaps he also dreads that one day you could lose interest, and if he was fallen head over heels in love with you...

 

- to me, that would be like treating his heart like a toy..!?? I could never be not sure and play with a man's heart like a toy.., because I value my own heart and more so, I value his because it has been wounded. He deserves for it to be treasured.. called me sickeningly romantic, old-fashioned, whatever, that is me!!

 

- however, he knows in his hearts that he can take the risk, it honestly feels like he is just working out the best, most perfect and romantic way to go about it! and I realised I needed to give him all the time he needs to prepare and do this, because there is in reality certainly no rush on my side, I need time to adjust..!

 

it is his fantasy for his "dream girl" to chase after him

 

- this was true for a short time but he knows now this is not going to happen. Basking is a luxury he can ill afford, he knows this all too well.., he has to take action because in his mind he will lose me if he doesn't. I have shown him `with every ounce of my soul' that I believe in him, I value him and I am protective of him (I am not giving examples because these details are too personal to include).

He knows now not to wait and that the only agony being prolonged is the very real possiblity of increasing doubts in my head the longer he takes about taking action.

We definitely took two steps forward and five back frequently at the various stages of this developing but now we are both taking one or two steps forward and none back, I am pleased to say.. despite the nervousness on both sides.

 

It seems like you are tacitly implying something along these lines : "I'm pretty girl who is bending down to love a shy and average guy and I'm giving him the Green Light and wow I can't believe he is STILL not taking the initiative?!"

 

- I do not consider myself superior in the `looks' department, but from the many exchanges, nuances, shocked expressions, changes in body language, verbal clues, things he has said to me, about me that communicated his shock that I reciprocated at all.. it was confirmed that he did think he was average compared to me.

 

I have made it `vigorously and fervently' clear to him that I see him as more than just very good best friends!

He recently got my reassurance that he can enjoy more than just the prospect of friendship.

I let him see in my eyes too, what I saw in his, to bring this home to him even more so.

 

He won't want to let you out of his sight ever again. I'm sure this is what he really wants, and if you REALLY LOVE him, the true love kind of love, I'm sure you will do whatever it takes to help him see just how much you do love him.

 

- I have done and continue doing whatever it takes.. contrary to the average versus above average theory, I am actually as concerned as him with not taking him for granted.. it's called humility!

[GoneCrazy]

My biggest problem is the flirting or being friendly, can't tell the difference between the two ](*,) Then again 99.9% of the girls/women I meet are at the work place, so i'm pretty sure they are just being friendly. Always get my hopes up for nothing, a mistake I make over and OVER again. ](*,)

[hum]

Somehow, I doubt that there are any reliable signs. Some women are very touchy/feely and will go way beyond any of these "subtle" signs without having any romantic interest at all. Some may do many of these subtle things just because they enjoy the company of the said guy, but have no romantic interest in him. To be able to make a reliable guess, I'd say you'd have to have spent a lot of time around the person, gauged their personality, seen how they are with other people, and are able to compare it to how they are with you, etc. etc. I've made plenty of wrong guesses in my life, that's for sure.

 

I guess, personally, I don't find all of this gamesmanship romantic. I would find it much more romantic for someone to say "Hey, I think you have all these lovely qualities

, and I'm attracted to you". That shows that they have really thought about you and what you are like as a person - seems romantic enough to me. The other stuff - seeking and giving signs, etc. seems mainly about self-protection or allowing yourself to maintain plausible deniability so you can back out at any stage. Then again, I'm a bit over gender roles, thinking of myself as a "man", and feeling that playing the "man's role" is any particular virtue. I bought into all that stuff for most of my life, and the only real thing it did for me was make me an emotional cripple, and a slave to other people's expectations. Perhaps that is unromantic, then. Who knows?

 

Having said all that, if I had to suggest something that would probably work on me, get into his personal space and talk softly and sweetly. Good luck!

[FrogIsFree]

Somehow, I doubt that there are any reliable signs.

 

- there are actually.. I mean some pretty reliable signs, which I think is pretty darn good..!

- I've got the proof now!!!!

 

You're right.. some women are `very touchy' without it meaning anything!..unortunately..

 

However, I've spent a lot of time around this man and I have, as I've said before is essential, relied on what I know about him as an individual.. no matter what experiences are shared with me - grateful as I am, they've only been able to shed a little light on what I've known all along, apart from the wake up call that I'd been a bit shut down, that there is no set answer to `helping' him, there's just knowing what feels right.. because what is right for one person could be totally wrong for someone else!

 

I don't find all of this gamesmanship romantic.

 

- I appreciate you might perceive it as this, but in my opinion this has got nothing to do with `gamesmanship' - there's no deception involved, I am not stringing him along with some ulterior motive or viewing this as some sort of competitive aim.., this is simply realising, in my own humility, that I haven't been good at giving out the signs I like somebody through poor social skills in this one area of my life, having had guys chase me all my life who were mostly no good for me. As it happens, whatever I discussed on here - which is about exploring and learning, and I have a right to change my mind in 30 seconds flat from now - it doesn't mean my thoughts and feelings about signs and theoretical green lights is set in stone..!

 

I would find it much more romantic for someone to say "Hey, I think you have all these lovely qualities

, and I'm attracted to you".

 

Sounds so easy! ..what so many of the guys on here have been saying and making contributions to the thread subsequently, is that when this is difficult, there are otherways that perhaps I or other women haven't thought of that might help ease the process when we don't find it easy as you have suggested - this is where we moved the discussion on - so that, if a woman did decide to take a paritcular approach, maybe including yours, that there are other ways that act as a variation on this that are much more suited to the individual approaching, rather than the whole thing being from the man's point of view (compromise is key here!) and that in this context the woman can still have integrity and be honesty and romantic! There's nothing worse than saying being forced and saying things that just aren't really you, to please the man..

I know for one I wouldn't respect myself if I did that and my guy knows that is the kind of person I am and that's why he is crazy about me. He loves me for my integrity.. he told me.

 

It isn't automatically true that a woman evaluating all of this and how she approaches a man in her own authentic way is automatically unromantic!

 

I appreciate you feel it's not romantic for you, but eg I had already thought of some suggestions on here, but seeing a men's points of view on this on here confirmed what I had suspected all along: that I just needed to trust my feelings and trust him..

 

So whilst saying: "I am attracted to you" might work for you & while this may be right for you, it certainly isn't right for me and like another poster said on here, why should we end up with egg on our face? It's a natural human response - certainly for me as a woman - to want to do things in a way that don't mean I should be happy to leap in to a total self-humiliation..! It's not necessary.. Perhaps you haven't had the extreme experiences I or other women have had, to think it is necessary to find other ways.. and no matter how much I or anyone can claim we really know somebody - at least pretty well, as a minimum, that doesn't guarantee that we ever really know that person properly until we are actually in a relationship with them (I've found that out the hard way),.. so some tentative stepping around is no bad thing - self-preservation is not a negative.., it has helped me make wiser decisions - it is there for a good reason.. ever heard the expression: "Look before you leap?" Well it applies here too! As it turns out, I have been able to drop any guard I may have had as things have moved on! so it's too easy to say there's essentially too much focus on self-protection.. I'd want to know, though of course I will never have definitive proof, if you could put your money where your mouth is and actually say this to a girl in real life yourself..

 

If you also read all my posts, you will be able to identify that I haven't protected myself, this is what this thread is about - is learning or confirming through self-evaluation whether or not I perhaps have already got the skills to approach him in my own way to communicate my feelings. There are lots of different ways to communicate feelings and exploring those ways is what this thread comes down to.. again, what is right for one can be so definitely wrong for another - there is no universal template.. so I have valued reading other people's experiences of what they find difficult and why and all the interpretation issues that go with it!

 

This post is not all about self-protection.. if you read the whole thread it's about working out how to extend our range of emotional communication - my own and for others on here who want to - to be more effective at communicating our feelings.

It doesn't have to be `forced', unromantic `game'.. I have never played games in my life and this guy knows I am not a game-player.. we are both working out the same things and what I have learnt over the past couple of days with him, is that he lacks confidence and I lacked openness through unintentional body language barriers!

 

..To follow on from this: we had a major breakthrough today & we have found other romantic ways that are right for us that show what we have shown all along: that we have really thought about each other and what we are like as a people.. - nobody can assume we haven't or say that about us.. only we can say that about us!!

 

Plausible deniability has got nothing to do with it and neither of us is ready to step back at any stage, again we both know lots of things you don't that are about how we've taken risks and we are very clear that neither of us is of the mentality that we are only doing things with the proviso that we can `back out at any stage' as you put it!

 

Despite everything you've said, I appreciate your opinion that - even though it is now in retrospect for me - getting into his personal space could be effective, as you've shared it's effective for you (though don't know about the talking `softly and sweetly' thing! ha ha..that would be too contrived for me, but that's just because that's not me and this man knows that's not me - because this felt right for me, natural/I did it with integrity and spontaneously no pre-planning or anything contrived (as you seemed to imply calling it `gamesmanship' and because it was truthful/true to me and who I am and I knew he would be comfortable with it. It suited us both - especially as he had already started this process by getting in to my personal space and I had reciprocated.

[TheHair]

I think that ultimately this discussion is largely technical. There is a lot of talk in this thread about how you could get some guy to ask you out, but you must realize that you cannot make someone else do anything.

 

In reference to the original question on what signals you could send out, such an individual usually spends a fair amount thinking about what he doesn't have. The grass is greener and all that. In all likelihood, he does notice your signals, but the reason they don't act upon them could be for a lot of reasons.

 

Being too shy to do so might be a good reason, but I think people who grow up like this can start to get down on themselves and may not believe that they're worth much as a human being, just read some of the posts on this forum (not judging, this is basically my story). If someone doesn't believe that they have worth it can be hard to believe that someone may be interested in you.

[hum]

So whilst saying: "I am attracted to you" might work for you & while this may be right for you, it certainly isn't right for me and like another poster said on here, why should we end up with egg on our face? It's a natural human response - certainly for me as a woman - to want to do things in a way that don't mean I should be happy to leap in to a total self-humiliation..! It's not necessary.. Perhaps you haven't had the extreme experiences I or other women have had, to think it is necessary to find other ways..

 

I understand the impulse you are talking about all too well. It is hard to get over that impulse. Just personally, I wish we could all dial that impulse down. When I think about times when I have felt that impulse strongly, it has usually been tied to a very poor self-image. That someone happens to not be attracted to us (e.g. when they turn us down) shouldn't really be a source of humiliation or shame. Disappointment and sadness, OK. In fact, if your feelings for someone are based on you really "seeing" them, then it should be quite an honour for them to find out that you are interested - even if the feeling isn't mutual.

 

I'd want to know, though of course I will never have definitive proof, if you could put your money where your mouth is and actually say this to a girl in real life yourself..

 

I have a few times. Because it's quite a direct thing to do, you need to be quite gentle with it and make sure they realise you are OK with whatever they say. Really, it depends on the other person as to how they handle it. Actually, the last time I did it, the poor girl had a panic attack - but as it turns out, she had a severe case of social anxiety which she had kind of been able to manage, but things that took her out of her comfort zone *really* freaked her out. Although she wasn't interested in me, ultimately, she didn't mind. After all, I said some rather nice things about her, and that doesn't happen every day.

 

For me, when I manage to be brave enough to be a bit more direct, although that moment can be quite emotionally intense, I find that it is, overall, much less painful and excruciating than the "Does she like me? What did it mean when she did X?" way of proceeding.

 

I suppose in the other post I was picking up more on what you said in the initial post. In particular, things like how you might be able to get the message through to him while still letting him "be the man" and keep his pride by allowing him to make the first move, etc. etc. None of it is actually meant to be personal criticism of you or what you have done. They are just general thoughts about some of the issues you raised.

 

Glad to hear it is working out for you.

[FrogIsFree]

That someone happens to not be attracted to us (e.g. when they turn us down) shouldn't really be a source of humiliation or shame. Disappointment and sadness, OK. In fact, if your feelings for someone are based on you really "seeing" them, then it should be quite an honour for them to find out that you are interested

 

- I have to agree in essence. Some of this is of course dependent on making an accurate assessment of the other person's ability to respond reasonably in the sense of not needing to humiliate someone who shows an interest ie not having such a massive ego that they would need to behave in this unkind way! ..and as I have gotten much better at this, it has enabled me to make better decisions about the kind of person who is approachable and would respond to it as flattery without reacting with the aforementioned unnecessary negative hurtful drama described. It may seem like a simple matter of self-preservation but it's actually about what you have in essence said: appreciation and when a man has shown appreciation but I have not felt the same way or wanted to get involved any further with them, I have never been unkind about it - there's no need.. I was, as you say, just honoured really that someone could let me know so directly and I can't remember an occasion when this happened when I didn't also already see some admirable qualities in `the admirer' and tell them at the same time.. because I appreciated their attentions and compliments. I think it's about being compassionate and decent and it takes courage to trust and trust takes time to grow and signs or green lights, can just help make this process of understanding the signs easier for many struggling to be as brave as you.. who can just come out and say: my guy lacked confidence.. he didn't have a low self-opinion but he did find it hard to approach me, because of a combination of factors such as I am confident and when I am in professional working mode I can seem more intimidating than I really am, because I am very direct and assertive.

He is shyer than me and it was tougher for him to read the signs and start to feel comfortable enough to accept that I was interested in return - so the focus here is a shy man approaching a woman and there were things I did that have now helped..

Also shyness doesn't automatically equate to a lack of self-worth or confidence e.g. as in my case, it just equated for him to things I dont want to put on here, but that affected his ability to believe I could be interested.

 

Like any non-shy person, I push myself out of my comfort zone regularly because I am no less motivated to do things that mean a lot to me.. So for me, it was about softening the way I came accross so I was less intimidating in his eyes.. I didn't mind doing this, because he is a lot more easy-going than me, and I felt this was a challenge I wanted to take on, not one I felt I had to accommodate him - again, it was just about compromising -.. which is healthy. We're not talking about a personality change to please the other person!

 

Actually, the last time I did it, the poor girl had a panic attack - but as it turns out, she had a severe case of social anxiety which she had kind of been able to manage, but things that took her out of her comfort zone *really* freaked her out. Although she wasn't interested in me, ultimately, she didn't mind. After all, I said some rather nice things about her, and that doesn't happen every day.

 

- this is the main thing..

 

For me, when I manage to be brave enough to be a bit more direct, although that moment can be quite emotionally intense, I find that it is, overall, much less painful and excruciating than the "Does she like me? What did it mean when she did X?" way of proceeding.

 

- I appreciate it works for you but for many this is not a starting point, it is a 'build up to' point and the thing about what you describe as `this way of proceeding' is that for many this is a starting point..Are you shy? I have scanned your responses to see if you are or not but couldn't find anything confirming this, because it a lot of shy people have said that it's a whole other issue and the signs a shy person likes a person can be very different to a non-shy person and they even give contradictory signs that they like somebody because of this shyness and this is ultimately what this thread is tackling! My guy being more shy than me certainly needed more of a run up to the hurdle ie signs, green lights with body language etc, that were relevant to him as indicators he could proceed. He wasn't self-protecting as much as not wanting to embarrass me, ironically..! which is quite a revelation. He is very considerate.

 

Thank you for your thoughts - it is definitely working out for me. Some shocking progress has been made since Wednesday.

[celsiana]

Thank you for this! It's very helpful!! I do need a plan. It's just hard because I see him at work for a few minutes once, maybe twice a week, and everyone is around. We have a very teasing friendship, so it's hard to suddenly turn serious-ish and ask him to hang out sometime.

 

I would try to ask him on Facebook chat, but it never feels the same when I talk to him on there. I feel like I'm bugging him. No idea if I am, but I try to stay away from it anyway.

 

I saw him twice this past week and he was really nice. He was even going on about how he held a newborn baby over the weekend. I often tease him that he's "evil" - 'cos he picks on me so much - and then he goes on about holding a baby. I just melted. *sigh*

 

I guess I don't know if he likes me because he never asks me any questions, although he doesn't ask anyone questions. If you start yapping at him, he'll yap back, and I usually just tell him what's new with me instead of waiting for the "how are you?" questions that aren't going to come from him. LOL

 

I also wonder if he likes me or not because I am taller than he is. I don't think I'm his type, physically. He is maybe an inch shorter than me, which I don't even think about, but I wonder if it bugs him? And my co-workers tease me for liking a 'short' guy. I ignore them but I know how some guys are about height. And - I'm 6.5 years older than he is! Yet we're kind of the same age, I'm not the most mature person on the planet. LOL

 

Oh, I dunno. Thanks for listening, again. (:

[celsiana]

hmmmm - nervous, ey? - sure sign! You wouldn't get nervous if it was just something and nothing + that's how I started out with this guy.. I was so dumb, not seeing the changes in myself or the blatant signs in him!!!! Crumbs, took me a while to wake up + fathom it!!

...

(That nervous is indicative of how big this potential is for change in us). What we do with those possibilities depends on how prepared we are to embrace change!! ..it's always scary, but ultimately could bring us great peace, joy and fulfillment in our lives.

 

I even get nervous when I try to chat with him on IM. But you are right, it does signify a possible change -- if I tell him I fancy him, and he likes me too - ee-gads! LOL

 

So what has happened with your guy?? You said positive changes!

[celsiana]

Everyone has different lovemaps. If you are certain beyond a reasonable doubt that the guy has real feelings for you, then perhaps on some subconscious level it is his secret fantasy for YOU to chase him. This conjecture is not entirely implausible, especially if he knows or has reason to know that you may feel the same way towards him.

 

 

He would want YOU to make the move and chase after him because :

 

Your whole post was incredibly helpful, even though I know you were talking to Frog. Thank you for posting it!!

[FrogIsFree]

I do need a plan.

 

- this was one of my points about this thread.. especially, as is similar with you, when you have a few minutes in which to make the most of the interaction that you have and this doesn't have to be a passion-killer, it's just practical under the circumstances. The other thing is - I found this out over the last week with my guy who this thread is about -that you need to give him time. Try not to think of it in terms of any kind of goal with deadlines attached,.. because it just adds pressure on to pressure and becomes intolerable!

 

I would however, say one thing when you do seem him for a few minutes, just take the next couple of times to notice as much as you can about how he is towards you - it was this that gave me a breather to gather my thoughts and realise some more simple but fundamental facts about my shy guy - he was struggling with his confidence.. that had a big impact on how he behaved around me, naturally but more importantly it had an effect on how I incorrectly assessed how things were going. What I've learned as a hard fact is: you can't rush a guy who needs time to find his confidence. I also found out that, to top this, that apparently I have an `awesome personality' in this was the intimidating factor that scared the c**p out of him coming up to speak to me.. You might be glad to know that with patience his confidence has grown! He needed a little time to gather himself together and pluck up the courage to say one word, then two, then four, etc etc. Seems silly I am sure to some people reading this.., but I think you know what I mean and it is true he needed time because now I can actually hear him speak, whereas before as soon as I was near him, let alone speaking to him, he would drop his vocal volume to virtually inaudible and look at the ground like a hedgehog turned on its back wondering why it is suddenly exposed to the world!!

 

I would try to ask him on Facebook chat, but it never feels the same when I talk to him on there. I feel like I'm bugging him. No idea if I am, but I try to stay away from it anyway.

 

- I have to agree about Facebook.. don't think it's that practically the best route to go down, especiallty if your guy is - based on this thread - shy, because it doesn't translate back in to real-life face-to-face interaction.. it just makes things more awkward in my experience. I stayed away from it and now I am glad I did, because each time we have interacted it has built things up on a day to day basis without all that room for the misinterpretation that is all too possible and creates awkwardness every time you see each other after a Facebook message that seemed like a good idea at the time!

 

That's sweet about him holding the baby, by the way!

 

I guess I don't know if he likes me because he never asks me any questions, although he doesn't ask anyone questions

 

- I wouldn't worry too much about this.. my guy was so lacking in confidence he couldn't string a sentence together in order to be able to ask a question.. bless him! He tended to stick to one to two syllable answers max.. in case - in his mind - he messed up! Not asking questions isn't a major indicator of he anything negative along the lines of he doesn't like you!!

In fact the less he says around you compared to other people, the more he likes you!

 

I used to worry about the physical differences between us too.. For the record, I once met a guy - way before the guy who this thread is about - who I was an inch taller than and to be honest, it made absolutely no difference to us, ..so I reckon if he is a cool guy I doubt it will bother him. ..& I wouldn't assume anything about yourself and whether or not you are his type.. let him decide that! While he is showing interest, I would suggest he could be thinking just like you that he doesn't even think about it?? I wouldn't torture yourself with the details..! That's just my take on it.. every guy is different and he probably likes your sillyness or whatever it is that you regard as a bit immature! ..perhaps he likes you precisely because you can be giggly & bubbly or whatever it is that you regard as not being particularly `mature'!

[FrogIsFree]

I even get nervous when I try to chat with him on IM. But you are right, it does signify a possible change -- if I tell him I fancy him, and he likes me too - ee-gads! LOL

 

So what has happened with your guy?? You said positive changes!

 

Can I just say though that while Lonewing admirably broke his ice and I did what I thought I could never do in zillion years!

It wasn't in the end the be-all-and-end-all to the success of the situation.. that my sound rich because I have actually done it.. and don't get me wrong, it helps, but ultimately - in the end - progress is taking place because his feelings are strong enough to make him very determined to get over his shyness to have me in his life, rather than lose me and regret it for the rest of his life - we met half way and in the end I was too hard on myself pushing myself so much like that.. we are both gentle souls & have reverted back to what feels right for us ie a comfortable pace with natural, largely unplanned exchanges.. & lots of faith - a lot more enjoyable and romantic.. (+wouldn't you like to know the juicy details! but that's for me and him to enjoy!!!! )

[Iori_Yagami]

FrogIsFree,

I just read your thread about so-called Green Lights, and was very impressed. It was really sweet to know that some girls could be this patient and attentive with shy guys, such as myself. I did not know that, honestly. Now I have some hope, since not every girl will run away or try to tease me about my so-called 'fear'.

At work, I have a female colleague, just about my age (late 20s), who I like, but still unsure about her. Sometimes she will ask for help (in such cases where it might be not really necessary, I believe), once I got an e-mail about adding her in contacts in some local social site, and I was dumb enough to ask her what that was. Of course, she said it was an accident, as in she accidentally sent me an invitation e-mail. Only now, after reading your thread, it hit me, that such accident is quite unlikely - you gave to specifically, manually type in recipient's e-mail, so it probably was delibarate.

Sometimes we chat, mainly work related, but sometimes about other things, like movies or travel. It feels so slow. I really think I should speed this up, or else I'll end up like someusers*ahem*onthisboard*ahem* (I had similar problems and thoughts as him - obsessed over one this girl, depressed, fixated on tasks at hand and oblivious to big picture, crippling perfectionism in study and work related things (even when not needed)).

So, what do you think, might that scare you, if said guy offered you a trip somewhere, like to a cafe or a park, on a random weekend, just to spend some time together? I think I should do it, but I am afraid her shyness (not obvious, but there are signs- it shows) might get in the way. What's the best way?

So thanks in advance. I really look forward to your reply!

 

P.S. My native language is not English, so pardon me any mistakes, or ask if something is not clear, OK?

[Puddles]

The thing that confuses me the most is that almost all hints you can throw at a guy can be interpreted in several ways, and all girls uses the hints differently.

I mean, there is this girl who, whenever we're together, gets really close with me, always hugs me, gives me kisses on the cheek, and tells me on several occasions that I mean a lot to her and stuff like that. Now, normally those things could be seen as clear signals that she is interested. But she's already in a relationship and has been so for almost half a year now, so I've just dismissed it as trying to be friendly.

But what if other girls starts doing those things? How will I know if she's interested, or if she's just being friendly as this girl? It's really confusing, because while the hints may be obvious to the girl, every girl does those hints differently so it's not easy for the guy to know what you mean with them.

 

Now, I'm a shy guy, and understanding the hints is not the only thing I have problems with. Even if they were really obvious and I actually managed to get them, I still wouldn't know what to do. It's not so much that I lack the confidence to approach girls or anything, it's more that I don't know how to approach them. I literally can't think of anything to say to them other than "how are you doing?", and that's pretty much it. I have no idea what else to ask them about if they're not the ones initiating the conversation. But when they do initiate it I have no problems keeping it going, if I have any kind of interest in talking with them at least. That's my main problem, I can't initiate conversations because I don't know how to start them. I only know how to continue them. I guess other shy guys might have the same problem, and if that's the case no amount of hints will help with that. Those kind of guys need to be approached as they won't be the ones approaching other people. Mostly it's not because they don't want to or because they're afraid, but because they don't know how. At least that's my experience of things.

[neocorp]

ok that topic MUST BE A STATIC for the entire forum! This is the most helpful thing I have ever seen in this forum to be honest and special thanks to you FrogIsFree! So I wanna spill some beans over here... I'm not that of a handsome guy but most of girls I know tell me that I'm quite charismatic. To be honest, I don't have much experience about relationships(2 or 3 serious and some other stands thats all!) But many times in my daily life, I see girls around me like anywhere; in a bus, in a cafe etc. The thing is that I'm GUESSING that I might have something with some of those girls; e.g. when I have an eye contact with a girl, I have it like 20 times with any girl that I like and I assume she likes too in a fraction of time... But I don't make any moves forward for any of those girls; just long eye contacts and thats all and as I said I feel sth going on between us... So as a reference to your inferences, should I take a step forward and do what? Thats such a big problem of mine... Please help with that...

[Gymboy]

I will remember this for as long as i live. When i was about 16 or 17 there was this girl i knew pretty well who i really liked, almost to the level of obsession. When i was with my ex i went to a party with a group of friends and the girl was there (4 or 5 years after the time i liked her). We got talking and we both confessed we used to really like each other but nothing ever came from it. I asked her if she knew i liked her, she said yes, she asked me if i knew she liked me, i said yes. Then we both just laughed and said why did nothing ever happen then? The answer was we were both scared of rejection, because we liked each other so much.

 

I think the reason people are often confused about other people's feelings and whether they like each other or not is because humans are naturally reserved and we don't want to risk getting hurt. Getting over that initial fear of rejection is probably the biggest challenge in getting into a relationship, especially for men i would say. Women have all the power when it comes to dating as it is the mans duty almost, to be the one who initiates the first date. I too have the same problem as you but i think it would be better to be one of those men who are able to just ask girls out there and then, if they get rejected they don't really take it to heart. If it's me i would think about it for days and feel like a complete idiot. I'm just going to try being more forward with dating, not to the level of being a weirdo or anything, but im going to try and go on as many first dates as possible and meet as many new people as possible, when i am over my ex that is.