Is this unusual for a child of 3?

[eggplant47]

I have a friend I'm close to, and her daughter turned 3 a few months ago. She has mentioned something that concerns me.

 

She started potty training about a yr. ago and at 1st everything seemed normal. But for the past few months her child has been seeking out & urinating in unusual places. She got out of her bed in the middle of the night and peed on her mother's back while she was sleeping and she also ruined their dvd player by peeing on it. It seems like things like this happen maybe once or twice a week... but instead of gradually decreasing it's escalating.

 

Her mom doesn't seem to be concerned but I thought it was odd. I mentioned it to my mom & my Aunt who both work in early childhood Ed. and they informed me that this could possibly be a symptom of sexual abuse.

 

My friend is above reproach and although I don't like the dead beat dad, I just don't see him molesting his daughter. However, he is not careful about who babysits her. He will drop her off with almost anyone. My friend has objected to this but they split custody so there's not much else she can do.

 

As a non-parent how do I broach this subject with my friend without sounding like I think she's a bad mom? Is this even something to be concerned about?

 

Thanks in advance for your help!

[Rose21]

Um, while I admit a child OCCASIONALLY urinating in a strange place every once in awhile WHILE potty training, or just to get attention is common, but to be doing it every week, MULT times AFTER potty training a year ago??

 

That is SO not normal.

 

The DVD player, weird, but maybe. The mom's back??That's just really disturbing!!

 

That is NOT normal no matter what people try and say. The fact that she didn't choose a plant or carpet and instead a DVD Player and the mom? It sounds like she, in her own way, is trying to get attention or get back at someone. she knows if she pees on a dvd player, a family hold item that she says everyone go gaga over is BOUND to get more attention than just peeing on the carpet. She is prob doing it more and more, BECAUSE her mom is shrugging it off like it is nothing. Maybe if she got the reaction she wanted, it wouldn't be happening much.

 

The mom should NOT be brushing this off, I took Sociology and Psychology and aced it with flying colors and this could very well be a sign of sexual abuse or a cry for help.

 

Maybe she is neglected? Maybe she has a mental illness and now that she is 3 it is just now surfacing?

 

I wouldn't say she is a BAD mother, but she DEF needs to be more attentive!

 

It could be a cry for help, but she deffinatly needs to get her checked out by a professional.

 

This is quite disturbing

[Capricorn3]

I have to admit that I too think it's rather strange behaviour. I could understand if she was wetting her bed at night, as thousands of little ones do that, but to actually get out of bed and do it elsewhere........? Also, it's escalating. Whilst I'm hesitant to immediately jump onto the sexual abuse band wagon, I DO think it is really odd.

 

Unfortunately I have no good advice for you as I have no idea what I would do in the same situation. Just letting you know you're not alone in your thinking. I can only suggest the mother start monitoring the behaviour and seeing how often it's happening and if there are any other odd things happening and keep a record of it.

[eggplant47]

Thanks for the advice. I should clarify: her mom is extremely attentive... but legally has to hand her daughter over to the child's father 3 times a week, who has very different ideas when it comes to proper parenting & I'm afraid that's where the break down occurs. My friend even went to a court appointed mediator to try to resolve some of these issues... but apparently to no avail.

 

As you said, some accidents in the course of potty training are normal so I wonder if because this is her first child she assumes these types of accidents are par for the course?

[Rose21]

Like i said, it COULD be sexual abuse, could be just trying to get her parents attention.

 

Maybe she is hurt, sick, something, and she doesn't know how else to let them no. Shock factor.

 

Perhaps it is sexual abuse, although I def wouldn't jump to that conclusion. It could be something much simpliler.

 

Since she is just 3, it COULD be a disability, maybe she has a mental disorder or something. These things normally don't reveal themselves before the child is 3, sometimes it even happens much later.

 

Maybe the child is autistic, and this would explain the strange behavior.

 

I once had a friend who's son did this, he was 5 and autistic and he was trying to tell his family something and didn't know what other way to get their attention. He couldn't' really talk or anything, and crying and everything else he knew didn't get them to listen, so he did it in the most shocking/crude way he could think of. Peeing on everything!

 

BOY did that get their attention! And even though he was autistic, they certaintly didn't shrug it off like it was nothing!

 

I've babysat several autistic children, the degree of the disability varies greatly, but I've seen them do pretty darn strange things!

 

If this boy (he was 5) wasn't really potty trained, actually REFUSED, so it was a huge accomplishment for him to poop in the potty!

 

He'd go in his pants, (I constantly checked him every few minutes so this rarely happened) But if you left him in it for too long, he'd take off his pants and smear it all over the walls This is what his mother told me, but I was always on him, so I never got to see it happen! thankfully.

[Capricorn3]

but legally has to hand her daughter over to the child's father 3 times a week, who has very different ideas when it comes to proper parenting & I'm afraid that's where the break down occurs.

I think there's part of your answer. It could be that the child is very unhappy/stressed about parting from her mother. She can't explain herself so it comes out in a different way. I would take this very very seriously as whatever is going on, the child is obviously distressed about it.

[Rose21]

She could not have a way to cope with this, the constant switch from her dad to her mom is making her little brain do circles so she is reverting or trying to cry out for help by doing weird things.

 

How long ago was the divorce?

 

My parents got divorced when I was 2, and I too was forced to see my dad every weekend. I loved him, but my mom told me I did all sorts of weird things like locking myself in the closet, punching myself in the nose to not go, among other things!

 

Once I was with him I was fine, but the idea of GOING was horrifying to me apparently.

 

My dad was very good to me, but my mom and dad's parenting styles were so much different. I had total free time at my dad's house and when I was 8 he'd even leave me alone for like 4 hrs at a time

 

My mom was much more strict with me, and my dad was much more lax and let me do pretty much anything I wanted.

 

This going back and fourth between parents is stressful and causes strange behavior in ALL children, but with a children with possibly a disability (autistic or otherwise) It's DRASTIC.

 

Incase you didn't know, autistic children HATE change. Anything that is different from their routine, even something so simple, can create chaos. It could just be a temper tantrum, or it could be peeing on everything!

 

Think about it, animals pee/crap everywhere when they are really nervous, scared, or sick, old. Obviously it's not the old one, so either it's nervous, scared, or sick. I want to lean more towards sick (although I hope it's not the case) because if she was nervous all the time, she'd just pee in her bed.

 

By peeing on her mom, on electronic devices, she is getting reactions (even if they are lax, they ARE there) that she exisits. By her parents splitting, she thinks that maybe she is next.

 

Just a thought.

[Rose21]

Does she pee on her dad?

 

Prob not.

 

She is prob doing it on her mom, at her mom's house, because while she loves her dad it is her MOM that is forcing her to leave her.

 

She doesn't understand that it is to be with her dad, if they cared for her they would all be together.

 

So when she gets back, it is like she is trying to sunconsiously punish her mom, try to get a reaction.

 

Maybe even be bad enough to get grounded or not see her dad, yelled at. Anything to give her that extra attention.

 

Now that she is being thrown back and fourth she will need MORE attention than ever. Being a very attentive parent won't just be enough, you'd have to be an EXTREMLY-obsessively attentive parent when they are going through this. That's what they want. Obviously the girl isn't getting the attention she wants and the situation with her dad/mom is severely stressed out and she doesn't know how to handle it.

 

Idk, if my child was peeing on me, that'd be the biggest attention getter, "HELLLOOO, mommy I'm here!!!" there possibly could be!

 

Like a last resort when someone NEEDS to wake up, they throw ice cold water on them or sound an air horn.

 

"HELLO EARTH TO MOMMY!"

 

Is what she is saying. She prob doesn't put up a fuss, kick or scream when she goes because she doesn't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

[eggplant47]

She could not have a way to cope with this, the constant switch from her dad to her mom is making her little brain do circles so she is reverting or trying to cry out for help by doing weird things.

 

How long ago was the divorce?

 

 

 

Actually, they were never married. They had been dating for just over 6 months when their birth control failed. The relationship between them was over before she was even born.

 

I'm sure it's still a little hectic to be a part of two households but it is at least the routine she's always been in.

 

You're not the first to suggest autism. I don't know if this is a symptom but I've noticed that she is very intense and sometimes has a habit of emphatically repeating the same thing over & over again for several minutes. But since I have known other children to be repetative from time to time, I'm still hoping she'll grown out of it.

 

I just have no idea how to make the suggestion of autism without deeply hurting/insulting my friend

[Partime_Judas]

Personally, I would start with the lack of attention / lack of affection angle and then work to the sexual abuse. It is very likely a cry for attention / love in my opinion. I say this because when I was 5 I started pissing on an electric socket. Looking back and analyzing the whole episode, I'm pretty sure I did it for two reasons, the firstmost being attention ( I was a pretty lonely kid whose parents worked two jobs and didn't spend any time with him that didn't involve a TV, going to a restaurant, or shopping - no other personal interaction). In a way I think it was a combination of cry for attention, revenge (for not paying attention), and mild curiosity.

It could still be abuse, but if there are no noticeable signs, then I'd go with the attention angle. Babies are kind of like puppies, affectionate, eager, curious, and need to be loved. If you neglect a puppy what happens? It becomes sad, mopey, and after awhile irritable and resentful (maybe it chews up a shoe, blanket, or piece of furniture).

Anyways, hope that helps in some way. ~PJ

[eggplant47]

I think there's part of your answer. It could be that the child is very unhappy/stressed about parting from her mother. She can't explain herself so it comes out in a different way. I would take this very very seriously as whatever is going on, the child is obviously distressed about it.

 

I've been hoping that could be part of it too. I know my friend believes in 3 sq meals a day, a regular bed time, bathing & tooth brushing routine ect. I think at dad's house it's kinda anything goes and I could see where the transition would be stessful.

 

The peeing just really caught me off guard. I had no idea it was sometimes a symptom of sexual abuse.

[waveseer]

There is definitely something abnormal going on. I would suggest that you tell your friend to start at the doctor's office.

[eggplant47]

Thanks for the imput! What you're saying makes total sense.

 

But let me just clarify something I might not have before- She does absolutely get a ton of attention. My friend works very hard to keep her in a healthy daily routine that includes lots of time/activities together. Just as an example- they take walks together, polish each other's toes, attend a Mommy & Me swim class, & read together every night before bed.

 

As much as I dislike him, I have to admit her dad is also attentive... but he's more of a Santa Clause dad that showers her with candy and toys and neglects healthier habits.

[Rose21]

Than that's it, she prob isn't getting enough attention at her dad's.

 

It's just strange that this would be happening all of a sudden if it's been going on for so long, the parent seperation etc.

 

If she was STILL in potty training, it'd make a little more sense, still something to check out however.

 

But the fact that it has happened a YEAR after potty training and she had been using the potty normal before, and this hadn't been happening, leads me to think there is something DIFFERENT in her life that you don't know about.

 

Maybe the mom has a bf.

 

And if not, what if the dad has a ghost gf, or "playmate" that comes over reguarly and is constantly there.

 

This would affect a child greatly.

 

The repeating thing wouldn't be a sign of autism, that's a common thing to do, heck even I do it NOW! I have ADHD, so that takes care of that.

 

But the being very INTENSE thing does...

 

How is her speech, is it pretty normal? How talkative is she, does she do any other sort of weird habbits?

 

Maybe this is a phase, or habit she is going through.

 

I had pretty big OCD on top of ADHD as a child, when I got into something (ex: lion king, spice girls, pokemon etc) I'd watch this stuff over and over, I'd play the music over and over, I'd watch the spice girls tape LITERLY atleast 8 times a day, my mom had to take it away from me. I went through a phase that EVERYWHERE I went I had to spin around in a circle (twirl) before I sat down.

 

This may not seem normal for a regular kid, but with one with ADHD/mild OCD, perfectly normal! Obviously I still have ADHD, that's how I get MODS in college, but the OCD I just have a tinge left (everyone has it to some extent) It was MUCH worse when I was a kid. Also, my medicine has helped.

[eggplant47]

The repeating thing wouldn't be a sign of autism, that's a common thing to do, heck even I do it NOW! I have ADHD, so that takes care of that.

 

 

 

I had pretty big OCD on top of ADHD as a child, when I got into something (ex: lion king, spice girls, pokemon etc) I'd watch this stuff over and over, I'd play the music over and over, I'd watch the spice girls tape LITERLY atleast 8 times a day, my mom had to take it away from me.

 

Oh yeah, I get that. I don't find it odd that she gets really into stuff like Nemo & Spongebob.

 

But the repetative thing I noticed is a little different... For an example: Last time we baby sat her, we watched her at mom's condo & we ordered a pizza for dinner. When my husband answered the door, she stood up and said "Who is that neighbor?" I told her he was not a neighbor, he worked at the pizza shop. She continued for several minutes to say "Who is that neighbor? Who is that neighbor? Who is that neighbor?!" until she was almost screaming. I even tried explaining who he was a different way but something wasn't registering. She finally dropped it when she started to eat.

[Rose21]

Hmm...

 

Well if that's the case, I think you should really get it tested to see if she is autistic. That is how autistic children tend to speak. Like I said, there are different severites. The 5 year old I babysat couldn't even talk, made excellent eye contact, but only could make sounds/sign language and still pooped in is pants.

 

The earliest I've ever heard it been diagnosed was nearly 3 anyways, like 2.5.

[Capricorn3]

Is the dad living with another woman? If so, that could be yet another factor which distresses and confuses the child, as she has so many different people playing different roles in her life. She needs routine and stability, and being shuffled back and forth with no consistency can really mess a child up big time.

[eggplant47]

Is the dad living with another woman? If so, that could be yet another factor which distresses and confuses the child, as she has so many different people playing different roles in her life. She needs routine and stability, and being shuffled back and forth with no consistency can really mess a child up big time.

 

Actually, he still lives at home with his mom. But his mom dotes on her grandkid & she's been clearly identified as one of her two Grandmas.

 

However, it's entirely possible that he's dating someone.

 

But I'm not sure if it would cause this kind of reaction in his daughter. He & my friend actually split up before their daughter was even born, so she's never seen them interact as a couple.

[Rose21]

For Autism:

 

 

 

/ (sounds like she could have this more)

 

 

 

This is what I have, especially bad than, like ten fold! Mom had to have me on a leash in stores, frequent tempertantrums.

 

ADD/ADHD: (She could very well have it too)

 

Gee, I thought I was over the hyper activity part of it, but the talking non-stop IS me! lol.

 

 

 

Wow, this could explain the peeing! Should really have her checked out for this!

 

 

[Rose21]

Well it's DEF this:

 

link removed

 

But now she has to find out WHY it is happening.

[eggplant47]

Well it's DEF this:

 

link removed

 

But now she has to find out WHY it is happening.

 

Thanks for all the links!

[Speranza]

I agree with all the posters, especially Rose, who is talking lots of sense as usual.

 

This can indeed be a sign of abuse. It can be autism. It is DEFINTELY a child saying with her behaviour, SOMETHING IS WRONG IN MY WORLD.

 

I think the best way to get her mother to take her to the doctor is to say that this could be a sign of a UTI (which it also could, though it sounds very targetted!) and that if it goes untreated she may end up with a serious kidney infection.

 

And hope the child is odd enough for the doctor to pick up on other things... You could offer to go along for support, to ensure that she mentions WHERE and WHEN the little girl is urinating.

 

And - not a happy thought, but in any case of sexual abuse, don't treat the women in the child's life as invisible players. Women can and do abuse children.

 

Autism does sound quite likely - but even so, the vital thing here is that something has changed because her behaviour has changed. You don't need to frighten Mum with theories about what it might be, but you DO need to make sure she sees a doctor if you can.

[eggplant47]

 

 

I think the best way to get her mother to take her to the doctor is to say that this could be a sign of a URI (which it also could, though it sounds very targetted!) and that if it goes untreated she may end up with a serious kidney infection.

 

 

And - not a happy thought, but in any case of sexual abuse, don't treat the women in the child's life as invisible players. Women can and do abuse children.

 

Thanks! That's a good idea to portray my concerns as if for a UTI.

 

I agree & I wouldn't rule out women in general, I just know there is 0% chance that her mom is mis-treating her. There's not many people I would vouch for in such a way, but I have know this woman through and through since we were 12 and it's just an impossibility that she would be the one behind any possible abuse.

[Partime_Judas]

Autism is sounding more and more likely, however; I keep getting this nagging feeling that the's something else. It could also be that there is something else there. Either way, she's 3 years old. These are her formative years and I'm willing to bet there is a lot that she doesn't understand in her world. Consider that divorce many times affects older children drastically, and they have at least a slight grip on their world. She's three and it's not divorce, but consider her mindset. Her mom and dad don't live together. She has no real sense of how to deal with this. It has to be horribly confusing her. Which could explain the "Who is that neighbor?" phenomenon. She really has no idea how anything in life works just yet. One could tell her over and over, but she's 3. Asking a 3 year old to not only retain the information but also understand it is pretty damn Herculean in my book. I do believe she could probably benefit from some sort of counselling and wouldn't put the autism testing out of the question, but do remember that she is 3 and this has to be insanely confusing for her. She may not even understand why she is behaving the way she is. We all have done some pretty strange things when we were kids, and now we can look back and analyze/understand them a little better, but at the time, we had no idea. My heart goes out to this kid cause it's gotta be really tough on her. Just the shuffling back and forth between parents alone is disruptive to stability, let alone parenting styles. It has to be hard.

[Speranza]

Thanks! That's a good idea to portray my concerns as if for a UTI.

 

I agree & I wouldn't rule out women in general, I just know there is 0% chance that her mom is mis-treating her. There's not many people I would vouch for in such a way, but I have know this woman through and through since we were 12 and it's just an impossibility that she would be the one behind any possible abuse.

 

Sorry, I meant to edit that to say I wasn't meaning her Mum - there are lots of other women around though...