Is this unusual for a child of 3?

[eggplant47]

Thanks everyone for your thoughtful responses!

[3boys]

Is she only doing this at night or is it during the daytime too? If it's only at night, it could simply be a case of "sleepwalking" where she realizes she has to urinate and when she does, she is dreaming she is in the bathroom.

 

However, if it's during the daytime, she needs to figure out why it's happening (like everyone else has said). Be careful bringing up the autism to the mother, though....she might take offense at the suggestion that you believe there is a problem when she doesn't. Believe me, I've been through this TWICE with a friend, once when I suggested her oldest son had ADHD and once when I suggested her youngest had something other than ADHD (which is what he is being treated for, but has never "formally" been diagnosed with by anyone other than a social worker--the doctor treating him now just accepted what the social worker said). Some parents, especially those that I call "super-moms" think that their child having a mental/behavioral disorder of some type is a direct reflection on their parenting skills.....

[eggplant47]

She's doing it at all different times of the day. Once, in the middle of a party I was having, she crawled up onto my couch and peed on it & she was definitely awake and aware of what she was doing.

 

I'm really concerned about approaching my friend too. I know people can be really sensitive about their kids. Right now, I'm thinking the best thing to do may just be to urge her to see a Pediatrician about it & let them figure out the diagnosis!

[Speranza]

I'm really quite concerned that your friend isn't concerned...

 

Surely she must be?! Are you good enough friends to tackle her being in denial, if not?

[eggplant47]

I'm really quite concerned that your friend isn't concerned...

 

Surely she must be?! Are you good enough friends to tackle her being in denial, if not?

 

 

I don't think it's denial. She's kinda on her own & this is her first kid and her first time potty training anyone. So I think that she thinks accidents are to be expected (I should mention that there are also many, many times during a week that the child uses the potty sucessfully). If I hadn't done so much babysitting/nannying growing up, I might have thought it was normal too...

 

I know she's not pleased about the accidents but I don't think she's actually concerned about them at this time. I do feel that she will become appropriately concerned as time goes on if there's no progress made.

[BellaDonna]

Accidents are to be expected during potty training, but these are not accidents, they are calculated choices. (Especially if she is pulling her pants down before peeing- do you know if she is?) She is peeing on things for attention and/or to express frustration.

 

Has your friend asked the little girl why she pees on things?

 

My own sister used to do that at about age 4- because a new sibling was born and she was no longer "the baby" and she knew she could use it as a means to gain more attention.

[Fudgie]

I do think it sounds like a cry for attention. Kids who are in need of attention (or feel like they are) will do whatever they can to get it. I'm sure the child has realized that urinating on certain things/people illicit that desired response/attention. Then they just keep doing it!

 

That being said, no, it's not normal. I suggest that the mom goes to seek the help of a GOOD child psychologist.

[Speranza]

I thought potty training was a year ago??

 

She really needs someone to tell her how abnormal this is, I think.

[eggplant47]

I thought potty training was a year ago??

 

She really needs someone to tell her how abnormal this is, I think.

 

It started about yr. ago & at first it went really well... then she seemed to slip. My friend talked to the Dr. about it & was told that sometimes if you start kids too early they can relapse a bit.

[eggplant47]

Accidents are to be expected during potty training, but these are not accidents, they are calculated choices. (Especially if she is pulling her pants down before peeing- do you know if she is?) She is peeing on things for attention and/or to express frustration.

 

Has your friend asked the little girl why she pees on things?

 

My own sister used to do that at about age 4- because a new sibling was born and she was no longer "the baby" and she knew she could use it as a means to gain more attention.

 

I know several times she's peed right through her clothes but the night she peed on her mom she had taken her pants off. But it's pretty normal for her to try to pull her clothes off and run around naked!

 

I don't think she's asked directy why it happens but I know like with the phone, she explained to her daughter that she'd broken it & the little one apologized.

[Citlali]

Um, just because a court ordered joint custody doesn't mean that she can't go back and change that. Her hands aren't tied. If she KNOWS the father is a scumbag who hands his daughter over to anyone and their mom, and that he isn't caring for her as he needs to and should, the mother has a right, and more importantly a DUTY, to bring that up and have him investigated, and if necessary to get sole custody of the child. She needs to do SOMETHING if the father is an inadequate parent. Second, how has this not disturbed her to where she has sought professional help? This isn't normal for a child and it could be a cry for help. I think that the best way to bring it up is not to start off by throwing out there the idea of sexual abuse and how she hasn't yet done anything about it, but rather to say that you care about her and the child and think that it might be helpful to ask a professional about this since it isn't very common. Try to not come off as judgmental, but I think that with such a touchy subject, things might not go so smoothly, especially if she takes offense easily. All I know is that someone needs to do something about it, even if it means calling CPS on the father.

[eggplant47]

Thanks for the input!

 

They did go to a court appointed mediator where my friend voiced her concerns about dad not setting a normal routine: regular daycare, bedtime, veggies with dinner ect. The mediator's solution was to order the father to enroll in & pay for half of day care so that there'd be some consistency during the week- something that my friend had been requesting for a long time.

 

However, nothing stops him on Friday night when he wants to go out. When this came up in mediation, my friend again explained her concerns that her daughter was being left with someone she'd never met and the father didn't know well. The Father explains it as him leaving her at longtime neighbor's homes.

 

I agree with my friend that just because someone has lived down the street for a few yrs., it does NOT mean you know what goes on in or who goes through their house.

 

But the truth is no court is going to take custody away from a Father for too many trips to McDonalds and hiring a neighbor to babysit.

[Speranza]

Well another option is that YOU report your concerns somewhere... however whilever you can still talk this through with her, that's the best option.

 

But seriously, as I said a while ago and someone else has just said, this ought to be ringing alarm bells and if she is too naive or tired to see this, someone needs to ring them.

 

She (and you) would never forgive yourselves if later it turned out something WAS very wrong when she's at her father's.

 

Plus which, the pulling all the clothes off certainly could be consistent with autism.

 

Professionals need to be involved here, even if it means risking your friendship - hopefully it wouldn't mean that.

[eggplant47]

Well another option is that YOU report your concerns somewhere... however whilever you can still talk this through with her, that's the best option.

 

But seriously, as I said a while ago and someone else has just said, this ought to be ringing alarm bells and if she is too naive or tired to see this, someone needs to ring them.

 

She (and you) would never forgive yourselves if later it turned out something WAS very wrong when she's at her father's.

 

Plus which, the pulling all the clothes off certainly could be consistent with autism.

 

Professionals need to be involved here, even if it means risking your friendship - hopefully it wouldn't mean that.

 

I disagree that the clothes pulling off indicates autism. I have dealt with many children over the yrs. who, the minute you turned your head, would strip down & steak naked. Usually, the phase passed within the year.

 

She did just turn 3 and seems to be doing well in other aspects of her life- she's very social and her vocabulary is excellent.

 

For now, I think it will be enough to tell my friend that I think this is something she should discuss at her daughter's next Dr.'s appt.

 

Thanks everyone for the advice!

[Miss Firecracker]

Maybe she just thinks it's funny to pee on her mommy and get a reaction. Maybe no one is abusing her at all. I surely wouldn't assume that.

 

I know a little girl that used her own poop as a crayon. She licked the wall in a public restroom once, to her mother's horror. She is a very successful young lady now.

[eggplant47]

Maybe she just thinks it's funny to pee on her mommy and get a reaction. Maybe no one is abusing her at all. I surely wouldn't assume that.

 

I know a little girl that used her own poop as a crayon. She licked the wall in a public restroom once, to her mother's horror. She is a very successful young lady now.

 

And I think that's exactly why, at this time, my friend is not overly concerned & why I myself questioned whether it was even a serious problem. Almost every parent I know has a painting with poopy story. I myself at age 3 was found playing in the kitty litter pan like it was a sand box. Not because anything was the matter, simply because it was raining outside and I couldn't play in my regular sandbox. When my brother was 5 or 6 he used to eat weird things (a cookie coverd in ants, part of a spider web) to amaze and horrify his friends.

 

That's what makes this all so confusing. What she's doing certainly seems unusual to me... but kids do weird stuff all the time!

 

Luckily, she still sees her pediatrician on a regular basis so hopefully I can convince her to check with her Dr. about it.

 

Thanks for your response!

[Citlali]

But the truth is no court is going to take custody away from a Father for too many trips to McDonalds and hiring a neighbor to babysit.

 

But this isn't about too many trips to get saturated fat meals and leaving her with the nice old lady next door. This is him leaving her with ANYONE to go out partying. This is about the child now exhibiting issues not normal for her. The mother needs to be more aggressive and if necessary consult a lawyer. She can get around mediation. What she needs to do is make a connection between the daughter's odd behavior and the scumbag father's behavior. Instead of just saying, "Oh, he leaves her with long time neighbors", she needs to say, "My daughter is having behavioral problems that have begun since she has been ordered to be around him. A counselor has said it means [insert counselors opinion], therefore I am afraid she is being abused and mistreated and that it is having an adverse affect on her. I want more than paying for daycare. I want him to be investigated and to have supervised visits until the issue is clarified." This is why she needs to consult a counselor for her kid and to bring up issues about sexual, mental, and physical abuse of the child as possibilities, and consult a lawyer so that they can do something together about this. The mother needs to be more aggressive in this. It's her child's safety and life at stake. It seems she is too willing to just follow whatever some mediator, who isn't necessarily a lawyer or much less a judge, has to say and that mediator doesn't give a rat's ass about her case specifically, because he or she has many other cases. It's on the concerned parent here to raise hell. Encourage her to do it and if bringing up the issue of possible sexual abuse, which I agree is a possibility from my studies in psychology and child behavior, is what it takes, then do it.

[Speranza]

I didn't say it meant she has autism, I said it could indicate autism.

 

Perhaps if you look back over what you have written here and see it in terms of, not individual strange behaviours, but a cluster of strange behaviours, you will see why some of us are concerned.

 

When you go to a Child Protection meeting (and this is not necessarily about abuse, it can be any major concern) then you look at all the behaviour taken together.

 

A kid stripping off is normal. Peeing in the wrong place is normal. Being unhappy is normal. Having an excellent vocabulary at an early age is normal. Disturbed sleep is normal.

 

However, put those all together in the same child and you are beginning to think, Hmm... lots going on there...

[eggplant47]

Thanks for your input, I really do appreciate your concern.

 

But do you realize how many people hire nanny's, babysitters or pick an at home daycare out of the paper? I'm not saying it's what I would do or what my friend does... but a father using his neighbors as babysitters is not going to get him investigated because people use strangers as babysitters all the time. When I was a teen, parents would stop me while I was walking to school & ask if I babysat. I literally babysat for dozens of our neighbors who didn't meet me until I arrived at thier home.

 

The problems have not started since she was ordered to be around the father. He has had partial custody since her birth and these problems with urination have only started within the past 4 or 5 months.

 

My friend never phrased it as "being left with a neighbor" that how the father explained it when my friend told the mediator she was concerned about how he was handling child care. She told them these people were strangers to her & her child.

 

She went along with the mediator's decision because her attorney (who sat through mediation with her) advised her that it was a good decision & there wasn't much to be gained in going to court.

 

I too think that what the child is doing is unusual, but the truth is, we don't know why she's doing it. Equally horrible as ignoring signs of abuse, would be jumping the gun and accusing an innocent person of it & tearing apart a family.

 

I still think step one should be speaking to her pediatrician about it.

[eggplant47]

I didn't say it meant she has autism, I said it could indicate autism.

 

Perhaps if you look back over what you have written here and see it in terms of, not individual strange behaviours, but a cluster of strange behaviours, you will see why some of us are concerned.

 

When you go to a Child Protection meeting (and this is not necessarily about abuse, it can be any major concern) then you look at all the behaviour taken together.

 

A kid stripping off is normal. Peeing in the wrong place is normal. Being unhappy is normal. Having an excellent vocabulary at an early age is normal. Disturbed sleep is normal.

 

However, put those all together in the same child and you are beginning to think, Hmm... lots going on there...

 

I've never known her to be an unhappy child, at least not anymore than the momentary "I don't want to go to bed!" tears. And I would not say her sleep is disturbed. From what I understand it was one time she got up out of bed late at night. Typically she's a good sleeper.

 

As I said before the possibility of autism concerns me, the possibility of sexual abuse concerns me... but I am also concerned about jumping the gun and making false accusations that could really hurt someone.

 

The advice here has convinced me that I should share my concerns with my friend. However, before I contact SS & hold any meetings I will suggest she talk with her regular pediatrician.

 

Thanks everyone for your help!

[Citlali]

Tearing a family apart? What family? The dad is apparently an irresponsible scumbag to whom your friend sends her daughter because a court ordered it. There is no family to tear apart here that would trump her being more aggressive about her concerns. Moreover, if it turns out there is abuse going on, and obviously either the father directly or indirectly caused it, then it is worth tearing apart whatever shred of 'family' is left if it means protecting the child.

 

Obviously, there is something wrong. What I said above is what I would do AFTER going to a psychologist and figuring out what is wrong. I wrote what I did assuming this isn't normal behavior but rather something caused by someone else for whatever reason. My main point is that although she may say "he leaves her with strangers" and whatnot, it isn't enough. Her lawyer, which I assume she only pays for at certain times (since it can get expensive) may have little to no interest investing time in a case that will take much time and yield little profit. Sad, but true (and I say this as a law student). So she also has to take into considerations her own instinct and do what she needs to do to at LEAST get her child checked to figure out what is wrong. If indeed there is some sort of abuse going on, and she knows she doesn't do it, she will be able to accuse the father, because even if the father doesn't abuse her, his recklessness in how he treats her would have lead to it--the end result either way would be that the child would no longer have to go to him and continue being abused. All I am saying is that the mother needs to do something NOW. Get to a doctor. Set things in motion and then act accordingly.

 

A lot of what I said above in how she phrases things has to do with being strategic about it, especially if you have to go to court. A lot depends on how you phrase things, what words you use, what tense because that sets the tone of what you're trying to get at in court. Trust me. If she continues making weak statements like, "he lets neighbors babysit her" versus "a counselor says my child shows signs of abuse and her father dumps her with complete strangers I have never heard of and haven't authorized to be around her just so he can go out" then a judge, lawyer, and mediator will pay no attention. She needs to get accross the severity of her concerns and a lot matters in what and how she says it. Apparently, she has an incredibly crappy and disinterested lawyer. I'd advise to seek out a responsible lawyer to tell her these things.

[eggplant47]

You may think there's no family because it's not a traditional one... but there's a little girl involved here who would certainly notice if she was no longer going to be spending time with her daddy and grammy. Not to mention her Aunts, Uncles cousins....

 

I should clarify: my friend, at this point, is not upset about the behavior because I believe, she considers these to be regular accidents and just a part of potty training. The original post was about my finding it odd and wether it was unusual enough that I should voice my concerns to my friend. If this behavior continues, surely my friend would become concerned and then vehemently pursue treatment & further legal action if necessary.

 

This forum has convinced me the behavior is out of the ordinary enough to tell my friend I'm worried and try to get her to the Dr. all the more quickly. In fact, I'm having lunch with her today.

 

Thank you for your advice. I really admire your passion for helping children.

[generaldiscord]

If it's attention stuff, she'd be doing it to the dad (for attention) not the mother.

 

I'll go out on a limb here and express what might have nothing to do with her situation.

 

She may be "attentive" in the sense that she keeps her daughter active, but not as loving as she could be. Maybe she's parenting by the book, and doesn't alter her routine to suite the daughter.

 

My son had a little issue with toilet paper when he was 3. He would just hide it in the oddest places. When I found out (I assumed it was tissues at first!) I was very concerned that it might be a disorder. I didn't want to give him some sort of lable to live with for the rest of his life.

 

Well, it turns out that he was just getting used to the idea of controlling his own bathroom schedule. What worked was many many discussions, not angry, not shouting, where I would say "Hey, come here, Where does the toilet paper go? Go take that toilet paper to the toilet for me and go wash your hands!" Problem was resolved in days, and hasn't reared its ugly head since.

[generaldiscord]

Also, 3 year olds are plenty smart enough to talk to, but they have a clearly different way of looking at the world. The dvd player could have looked like a toilet to her! She's experiencing the ability to control her urination, and might feel like experimenting!

 

The problem won't go away without talking to her about it. And definitely make sure that baby girl is checked over (discreetly) for bruises and marks...

[Citlali]

You may think there's no family because it's not a traditional one... but there's a little girl involved here who would certainly notice if she was no longer going to be spending time with her daddy and grammy. Not to mention her Aunts, Uncles cousins....

 

You shouldn't assume things. I come from a single parent home, so "traditional" isn't my standard. My standard is stability and health. I simply have a vastly different way of looking at things. I'd rather my child have no father than a bad father who doesn't properly care for her as he ought to, and who may be harming her more than contributing to her development. And if that means she won't see him, then that's what it means.

 

I should clarify: my friend, at this point, is not upset about the behavior because I believe, she considers these to be regular accidents and just a part of potty training. The original post was about my finding it odd and wether it was unusual enough that I should voice my concerns to my friend. If this behavior continues, surely my friend would become concerned and then vehemently pursue treatment & further legal action if necessary.

 

Again, I just disagree. I don't see peeing on someone's back or on a DVD player to be "regular accidents". A regular accident is when she just pees herself because she hasn't yet learned to anticipate exactly when she needs to go. I would be super concerned from the beginning.

 

 

Thank you for your advice. I really admire your passion for helping children.

 

It certainly was an effort to help. I by no means aim to be judgmental. I simply have very specific and strong views about what I think the proper action to take is in certain situations. While I may disagree, I respect other people's right to parent as they see fit. I just saw an opportunity to opine in a way that I thought might help. I may seem a little passionate here because of my studies, I suppose.