rich 1517 - here we go again, scared but confident and awake

[rich_1517]

well I dove back in. i am stronger and not as weak and nervous as i felt, point in fact i told her this when we saw each other. that i was not at my best. that everything in my life plus the break up flattened me. but thats over.

 

she had sent me an email about the time i did a drive by call.

 

--------------- opening

 

i just called to say hi. it started to become chit chat, we obviously missed each other. i had been feeling very low, and that the "dating" we did was just her way of hanging on to me without a commitment.

 

but i was missing her so much that i gave in after drawing a hard line of if you cant commit to me i have to move on.

 

that was a month ago, and after repeat calls from her after to invite me to do things with her and her son, i didnt give in on any of it. i told her you know how i feel, yes i miss you too but..

 

so as i started to get off the phone and she said "coffee?" i said sure.

 

------------------- where we are now

 

ok so we meet, and i apologise saying im only human, had missed her but nothing had changed. she asked if she should leave, i said should you?

 

i said you can no easier turn me into a friend then i can make you love me again. that to do anything would be a lie. that to work i would have to care less or she would have to miss me enough to want more.

 

---------------- the plea but with confidence

 

then we talked. without going into all the detail. she misses me, she doesnt think her feelings will return. at that i started to get misty, but i didnt actually cry, so i said "just take me back".

 

and then it started. she hates that i am dating, she wants to know if i will date her but we date others. i said no. i want a comittment of six months to see if we can make it work.

 

she says she is getting older (31 im 43) and wants to have another kid soon so her son isnt too old for a sibling. i said these days it easier to let go an move on then it is to try, but finding someone new is harder. and for people like us its even harder (unique and compatible)

 

------------------- trust

 

i kept at it, i told her again everything about us that works, that she didnt trust me enough to be close, that she hasnt trusted anyone to make it work.

 

she said i trust you more than anyone in my life. i said well you didnt tell the man you loved he was screwing up big time. she said i dont want to hurt anyones feelings. i said thats what trust is, you take the chance to say what you feel you must, but know i will love you after.

 

---------------------------------- her doubts

 

so she said well now im confused. so she brought up dating again. but she said "what if i meet someone i want and we arent working out?" i said well we can end it anytime, but i would like us to try.

 

she said what if it doesnt work out, well just have to do this again. i said maybe, but we wont have any doubts.

 

she said im concerned about you taking care of health (smoking, other then that i am in fantastic shape)

 

she said im concerned about finances, i told her if we were together i would not start another business without her agreeing (i got brutalised by the economy and didnt let go soon enough)

 

so she said i need some time to decide. can i call you tomorrow?

 

i said sure.

 

----------------------------- the kiss

 

we then went to dinner, and touched, tickled and wrestled. as i went to leave we kissed, then we kissed, and i left the last one on her lips and said that was nice, ill talk to you tomorrow. for anyone who doesnt know the story she avoided kisses for all of our "dates". this was one of the sweetest most connected kisses we have ever had. i ended it early on purpose. so she would want more.

 

---------------------- camping

 

so she called, and said i cant decide today, its too fast. i said i understand. want to go camping next weekend? she said but i wont have my son, i said i know, think you can handle camping alone with me? she said yes.

 

------------------ the son

 

so then she asks if i will do something with her son on monday. this has bothered me in the past becuase it was getting her cake and eating it too. meaning all the friendship but no relationship.

 

so i did what i friend suggested i said ok, but after i will tell her i cant do this much without a committment, its confusing for me, but i think its not fair for your son. if we arent together he will have to get used to me then me gone and then perhaps never around at all.

 

bear in mind she wigged when i asked her "lets say its three years from now are you at my wedding, will you be able to answer you really tried?"

 

thoughts welcome.

[rich_1517]

i told her that i am concerned now for her son more then my feelings. that come and go might be harder on him then just gone.

 

that if we have a committment i have no problem being around and with him becuase there is a possibitlity.

 

i asked her is she seriously considering comitting? she said yes, then i said ok we can do something monday with her son.

 

so we are on now for waterpark monday, then the two of us camping next week.

 

i am realising i am much better then i was. im not very nervous or thinking through what i will do or say. this is much better, perhaps its also becuase while i dont want her to let go, i do think i will survive it.

[Scout]

Rich, this is going to sound harsh but I have been following your posts for some time now, and if I could give you any advice it would be: let go of this one and walk away permanently. She honestly doesn't sound like she's in love with you at all anymore, and she's trying to talk herself into it because you so very clearly love her. I know that hurts to hear, but you've been very detailed in your posts, and I just think this is the most realistic scenario. If a woman truly loves a man who in turn loves her back as much as you love this woman, she would get back together with him! Please, LET GO. This one is done. You did an admirable job of trying to save it & I respect you so much for that. But it is time to throw in the towel, I truly believe this with all my heart.

 

Good luck, my friend.

[craigblitz]

I agree.... I am in the same boat I don't want to except it. She says enough to keep me along, but cut the contact all together and see what she does. If she wants to be with you she will let you know. But you know the situation the best so good luck

[raider5]

I don't agree with the others. She acting just like a separated woman with doubts.

 

It maybe that she doesn't have any feelings and is trying to make it work.

 

But it also maybe that she is cautious.

 

But then again I don't know much of your story.

 

Could the age gap have anything to do with it?

 

But it doesn't look good that you have to coax her back into dating you again. Maybe you should let her go out and meet all the losers out there and realize what a catch you really are.

 

Sorry I can't help more. Just trying to give you a little more optimistic post.

[GeeCee]

Rich

 

This is not about being optimistic. You have been doing all you can for four months now. She has not budged an inch. You know that. SHE HAS NOT MOVED ON THE ISSUE OF COMMITMENT.

 

But you know that.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

no she hasnt budged. but she isnt saying no now either. we are set to go camping next weekend. we will both see real clear what remains of our romance.

 

at this point i think she is trying to talk herself into it and wrestle with her dilema about it.

 

we spent the day together at the waterpark with her son. i gave a lot of physical attention to her and we kissed some, shes not comfortable doing it in front of her son.

 

we went to the movies after, and he asked if i would spend the night. i looked at her and said maybe another time. the kid and i are very very close. i have told her we have to start thinking about the impact on him.

 

i wonder if she hasnt realised that next weekend is kind of big, im realising she isnt trying to be a jerk. she isnt looking or dating at all. so spending two and half days alone in the woods with me is going to put her feelings to the test.

 

she is showing signs of jealousy, and i have to be careful about that. she saw my roomates helmet on my motorcycle and said "how come?". she knows its for passengers. thankfully the truth was i gave him a ride.

 

but this week is sticky, i am seeing C and L both this week and will not change anything without a comittment.

 

bummer is i am still smoking, on our last meeting i didnt smoke at all. this time she knew i had and said "what happened?" meaning why. i havent been able to keep stopped. this is a big one. so i will try again tomorrow.

 

fact is, time is now on my side. she is a single mom, she is out of shape, she is really busy with work and her "independence" is looking a little boring. i will go slow and consitent but not doormat.

 

today was acceptable becuase she is considering still but i said without a committment i cant do things with her son anymore. its too unfair all around.

 

she is definitely into camping. so i will plan it for leaving friday night so our first night can be just snuggling without any awkardness. i hope we will both be tired. it allows for the familiarity of our sleeping next to each other to come into play. that will (knock on wood) leave saturday night open for perhaps more intimacy, with comfort restored.

[hurt and confused]

It does sound like you are holding on a little too much still right now but you do sound stronger than you did weeks ago. Stay focused - if it feels good to do what you are doing then go for it but if you feel that something isn't right after you continue to see her, then back off some and try not to be so available. I wouldn't even talk about the relationship right now. You have to be friends before you can be more.

 

Try not to worry about passing up chances to win her back, not being available just means you have a life too. You'e made it clear how you feel about her, she needs to TRULY miss you before she will stop being so ambivilant.

[rich_1517]

thanks Hurt,

 

yes on friends but no on friends. she and I already love each other as friends to a great degree. thats the problem. the fires of passion have cooled for her so friends is ummm dangersous to allow to just be buddies.

 

i pulled her into me from behind and kissed her neck yesterday while saying "is this appropriate?" in my most devilish voice. she said yes. she is very ok with me touching her. we are looking for the other part, her wanting to touch me. kissing is now normal, not deep but normal again.

 

I have changed a lot, i lost 30 pounds but got very ripped. i also grew my hair long so um, i look pretty good, aw hell i look fantastic, i surprise myself in the morning, im just not real arrogant by nature so its a surprise to me when i see me.

 

she was staring at me at one point. i said "what?" she said you look so damn rugged. ill take it as a compliment.

 

yes you are right. my plan is that if she doesnt repsond next week then i will say "I dont want to push, nothing good can come of that, perhaps we should meet again in the fall as friends or more if we are available."

 

we'll see.

[hurt and confused]

Well it obvious you both still have sparks between you, I just think you are just making it too easy for her to stay in her state of ambivilance. She has to experience "you don't know what you got til it's gone" for you to move forward as you seem to want to. I mean, are you truly happy where things stand right now? If so, then great, if not, then I still say back off some and see what happens.

[Scout]

Rich, you make me smile - loved your line "aw hell, I look fantastic!" Attaboy!! Now, I have already told you how I feel about the situation in general, but if you feel you really have a chance with her, than you must follow your heart. But I can't help but wonder - if you took this amazing patience, devotion, and commitment to someone with no ambivilance, an eager desire to find a fruitful partnership with someone, and a great capacity to love back - what a different scenario you would be experiencing right now. It makes me sad when I see men - and women - give so much to themselves to people who are less than enthused about accepting this gift - to the point where when a really ideal partner comes along, they have little if anything left to give.

 

Something for all of us to think about...

[hurt and confused]

I absolutely agree with Scout. Follow your heart but think about what Scout said: if you took this amazing patience, devotion, and commitment to someone with no ambivilance, an eager desire to find a fruitful partnership with someone, and a great capacity to love back - what a different scenario you would be experiencing right now.

 

I am trying to follow the same advice right now. We both have so much love to give to someone who really doesn't seem to appreciate it. Imagine how great it would feel to be with someone who gives you back the same committment and devotion. I think this girl of yours is very lucky to have you but are you lucky to have her?

[Scout]

Actually...I want to amend a little bit of what I said. Rich, please stop following your heart and follow your brain instead, which is very sharp, intuitive, and articulating loud and clear to you what to do about this situation. Honestly, I really feel that it's clear this woman is struggling with guilt over your feelings for her...I think she's trying to talk herself into something that she just doesn't want, because she feels guilty over how much you love her. Do you really want to get her back in this way? It won't last for one thing, and her son will have to see you two break up again. This isn't healthy, Rich, for you, her, and her son.

[GeeCee]

Rich

 

I entirely agree with Scout. Your ex has issues with committing to you that no amount of devotion on your part has changed. This is very telling.

 

Be very very careful. I am surprised that she is allowing her son to be exposed in this way.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

awwww. you guys make me sad and proud. you aer stand up friends willing to say what you feel is right.

 

i am learning that i love longing, that explains why ihave been here before. to want something out of reach. so i definitely have something to take to therapy when i go.

 

and like the punch drunk boxer who wants one more shot at the title, staggers into the ring bearing his injuries but full of confidence i go. for to do anything else at this time would mean i had truly given up on my heart again.

 

other observations:

 

dating is now awkward becuase she is trying, and a decision will come. L is coming on strong even though i have said, cant commit, not emotionally available, still rebounding, why does that turn women on?

 

C is also very OK with limited contact.

 

The ex would accept me dating others.

 

but i have no heart to give right now, i cant trust her yet, and im not ready for someone new.

 

so i have bouts of excitement and confusion.

 

this will end one of these ways:

 

it will not end, and she and i will play this out for a long time.

 

i will tell her guilt is a bad idea and though love me, you arent in love with me so everyone would lose.

 

i will tell her i am going to step back, lets talk in the fall.

 

she will realise that im worth it, and perhaps find real feelings not based in guilt but the ones she had before the wheels came off. becuase i believe when we see someone who meets our needs, not always our wants, we miss them like nothing else. and i meet most of her needs.

 

just the games have to stop.

 

keep your feedback commming, even if you think it will depress me. im not that frail anymore. boo hoo. hoorahh.

[rich_1517]

i will have to do some serious soul searching over the next two days. fact is im nervous. i have to decide how hard i want to play this hand.

 

there is a concept and practice in the behavioural wolrd of phsycology called the psychology of selves. the idea being we can never be of one mind about something becuase we made up of many selves. this is very true in the world of love as well.

 

the key is to get the selves to not interrupt each other long enough to hear them out. sounds strange? tell me if this sounds familiar: "god i really miss ....../no i dont i hate ....../but i felt so complete with ..../and .... dumped you. etc etc.

 

point is we cant reach an aware state of decision as long as that goes on. the idea is to let the primary self talk, all the way out, what it wants etc. until that side of you feels safe enough to let the disowned self speak. for instance, you may feel much more in "being nice" becuase being "nasty" scares you to show to your ex. so in fear of that the "nasty" or strong and protective side cant speak for long at all becuase we are afraid it will spill over.

 

the idea is that using writting or talking you let the side you most comfortable with speak all the way out and feel more comfortable with the "other" side of the story speaking.

 

the end goal is this: when resolving an issue where you are two or more "selves" about, using this process lets "you" know how you feel more completely about it and make a more effective decision.

 

why do i bring it up? well i think its good for anyone in our positions, but more importantly for me to do before this weekend.

 

if you are curious, check out this site ------ link removed

[Scout]

Rich, a few comments...

 

First, women don't find emotionally unavailable men attractive. At least I don't. And I don't think women like Gee Cee, or many of the other bright, caring women on this Forum, or my friends, my sister, my mother, etc. go for emotionally unavailable men....you get the idea...only very young girls who haven't developed their own sense of self-esteem yet or women who never developed a good sense of self-esteem go for the unavailable guys.

 

Second, you admit you like to "long". Ok, but step out of yourself for a minute, and think about your ex and her son. Your longing is prolonging an uncomfortable situation for both of them. For their sake, walk away. Let her go on with her life. Let her son go too...it's not fair for him to have this nebulous figure around that has a fuzzy, at best, role in his life and his mother's life.

 

Third, please use your incredible intelligence and insightfulness (rare gifts) towards finding a healthy relationship. If you have to go to therapy to learn how to do this, schedule an appointment ASAP. You have too much going for you - and a lot of love to give - to continue in such defeating patterns. Really, I'm getting a little impatient with you. Now hop to it! Let GO, misery and longing are learned behaviors, not addictions.

[GeeCee]

Ooooh Scout

 

 

 

This is good. This is real good. You are right. Emotionally mature women DO NOT want an unavailable bad boy. Not for the long haul. I don't know about you, Scout, but I had my bad-boy flings when I was in my teens and twenties. Now safely ensconsed in thirties, I do NOT want a relationship with a bad boy!!!

 

As for you Rich, what is most telling for me is your acknowledgement that you need the longing. Kudos to you recognising this and the need to address it. However, say the ex comes back, the longing dissipitates - where are you both then? Are you telling me that you will have satiated your desire for loning? That you will be comfortable if she comes to the table and says, right you got me. I am now not so sure. Remember you had commitment issues with the ex in the first place.

 

Finally, from a personal perspective. Most women I know, KNOW what they want. Sometimes they are not so good at articulating it. Especially if they are going to hurt someone. And so they give them little hints - let's be friends, I am not sure what I want, I need some space. These are designed to let the partner down without any great emotional drama, but rarely work, because the other party does not know where they stand. They take the comments at face value. Sound familiar?

 

Like Scout, I think that you have analysed this to the nth degree. You really need to take a back seat. Go to therapy, if you feel that will help. But MOVE ON, BUDDY.

 

The idea that you are PROlonging this agony is worrying. But the biggest concern for me, is that the ex has involved her son in this game of cat and mouse, AND THAT IS NOT FAIR. All the while he is forming a deeper emotional attachment to you. Are you going to tell HIM that you can talk in the fall?

 

Sorry if this sounds harsh. You know, Rich, that I wish you all the best. The fact that you are playing a dangerous game between consenting adults bothers me not a bit, but please, LEAVE THE KID OUT OF IT!!

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

whoa...

 

man do i know how to cause reactions? wow.

 

i will finish this later, but you have my attention. i dont want to hurt her son. i was the one that said to her only one time without a commitment. it breaks my heart to have that half life as well and to see him call me dad even though his dad is 50/50 involved.

 

second you are assuming she wants to get on with her life without me, or she is driven by guilt. you dont know her, but i will ask her if that is what is happening. becuase i respect me and her enough not to let that win what would be a horrible outcome. i used to be that "guy" the one who could be guilted into it.

 

she will only do what she wants to do (trust me on this), she may be afraid of the loss and thats what i think is driving more then anything.

 

i will come back to this but understand i am trying to find my way through a murky land here. she says one thing and does another, and then changes her mind as well.

 

as for women knowing what they want? uhmm (cough cough) people dont know what they want until they know, until that happens anything can happen. someone can ask for change in a lover, then not want a lover they can push around, a person can say i dont want you, until you find someone new, a person can change in spite of all the reason or logic that says not to.

 

will finish later. the moral aspects here are too impotant not to.

[Scout]

Rich, I don't want you to think we're ganging up on you here...well, we sort of are, but's it out of concern, I promise - but I think you missed Gee Cee's point. You say people don't know what they want until they know...but what Gee Cee said, and I relate to because I've done it myself, is that she's not saying directly she doesn't want you anymore, but is saying it in so many ways indirectly. I did not realize her son calls you Dad. And she is ok with this, even though she doesn't want to be in a committed relationship with you? And you're ok with this??

[GeeCee]

I did not realize her son calls you Dad. And she is ok with this, even though she doesn't want to be in a committed relationship with you? And you're ok with this??

 

Rich, as you know, I have children. This would be a real red flag for me. HUGE. This is not quite right. The boy has a father. He is in his life. You are not Dad. You might well be a father figure. But do not understand why he is calling you Dad.

 

Of course, these are just my thoughts.

 

And Rich, please, you have done enough soul-searching. No more, please.

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

stop drawing conclusions please. maybe she doesnt want me anymore and hasnt said it directly. i cant explain her to you, so i guess i wont try. think of a man who wont committ and why. then apply that to her. thats basically what you are dealing with.

 

you have to understand the boy. he has called me dad before but catches himself as he did this time. he is very strong and he will heal up ok. this will be hard no matter how you cut it, i have been there for over half his life. i actually was the one who said lets wait before including him. but on one side its ok to ween him off me over time. that leaves me as the one who is getting hurt more.

 

am ok with it? Absolutely not. is she ok with it? who knows what she is thinking, i know she wants her son to able to to see me. he says i miss him, she calls me.

 

dont read too far, she faces a hard time being a single mom again, but thats not my concern. i have told her i will not involve her son without a committment, that monday was a one time deal based on the fact she is seriously considering comitting again. was she listening when he called me dad or asked me to come home with them, by listening i mean does she understand the emotions that are taking place, and does she care? i really dont know.

 

is it for real? is it driven by guilt? is she just lonely? am i just unwilling to let go? is she? i couldnt tell you. but she is game for trying this far, we will bit know by monday whats real and whats not. is she is feeling guilty she wont be real with me and i will see it. if its just lonely then it will just wear out. if we both miss each other enough then things could happen.

 

ask your self, if you could spenf three days alone with your ex would you take it? if they said they are reconsidering getting together, would you listen for a while?

 

sometimes when you are ready to quit a job its the best time to ask for a raise. thats where i am.

 

i know i may be headed for a world of pain here, but it must be what i have to go through to see the truth. its just who i am.

[rich_1517]

ok still thinking about your posts.

 

lot to think about. she and i keep talking, she is different these days. she seems settled into who she is. i cant tell if thats good or bad, but the conversation is good.

 

she and her son have a great dymanic, his dad is there every other week for him. i am not a surrogate or replacement, he just loves me, as i do him. I told her i miss being there.

 

we made a lot of jokes about being broken up, good, bad. i dont know. trying to accept or make light of to remove pressure, who cares. fact is normal is better. shes calling back and im going to be "sexually" funny and see how she responds.

 

i miss her a lot, i miss us. but i will try to stay focused and listen to what she says this weekend and not ignore the cues about me and our relationship.

 

after tonight i will cut second guessing becuase i roll into the weekend and i want this to work, and my confidence must be intact. just know that i care about whats best here, i will not blackmail her emotionally into taking me back, i will not allow her son and i to connect until we have an answer.

 

but your words have been heard.

[Scout]

Rich, basically that's what this forum is for - to ask questions, and based on the information the asker gives, we answer with the conclusions we've drawn. In your case, there has been a LOT of information. I actually went back to your original post from several months back, and read through everything. Wow. People were telling you similiar things even then. Have you re-read any of this stuff lately? I'd suggest it. There was one post in particular from Mar that was dead-on. As also has been said, you have analyzed this to the nth degree. There have been many times where she was on the verge, supposedly, of making a decision...and than didn't (directly, anyway). Maybe this weekend will be the ultimate deciding factor. I seriously doubt it. And than you'll be back on the merry-go-round of indecision...passive behavior....mixed messages....all over again. Perhaps this is something you're comfortable with, and you don't really need our advice or feedback, but just like to talk about it. That's fine. But you've also closed with several of your posts asking if any of us have something to say. I don't have anything else to say about this situation. You seem like a likeable, bright person in many ways, but I absolutely can't relate at all to why you would stay in such an unrewarding situation. So maybe people that can understand should be answering your posts, not me.

 

Good luck, whatever the outcome may be...if there is any clearly defined outcome, that is.

[rich_1517]

im not sure how to respond to that. sorry if my stop drawing conclusions comment was nasty. it was in response to what i saw as judgements about the following:

 

- you are guilting her into a relationship

- you arent taking her son into account

- she should be let go

 

those seemed liked judgements to me based on limited information, and i reacted. i am sorry if that tweaked anything for you.

 

yes scout i did post a LOT, thats how i keep interactions with her sane, to run my insanity out here and keep it out of life.

 

Mar was of that mind from the beginning. i love mar she is a very kind soul with toungue of steel. but she also stays in a situation you might call intolerable, but to her it is acceptable.

 

i am doing what i believe is most true to myself. to ride this as far as i can. the assumption of what I get from her or anyone is kind of important here. have you ever been with someone who you just feel good with and talking to?

 

i dont want her out of my life either. i just dont know what i role i can stand that is less then a committment. these days its easier to walk away then it is to try, how many relationships that might have worked becauase both people gave up. so i am the only one trying, i know that. i accept that. on the other hand she hasnt moved forward either.

 

i cant tell you the whole why, my situation is only four and a half months old, many people do this for years, somethings take time.

 

what has changed is that i am stronger and more confident but havent moved real far away. consequently i watch her change in front of my eyes, its sad but its real. there is no "no contact" under which to guess what the other person is feeling. i see it. and that changes me, and what remains of the relationship.

 

but scout, geecee, again ask yourself if you could have three days alone, no distractions (and you liked each other) would you take it? would you give them that chance? would you give your heart that chance?