To all the nice girls and guys out there...

[SwingFox]

A challenge to reply to this

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Dear Members of the eNotalone.com forums & boards. I would like to challenge each and everyone of you to reply to this post. This is about what I have read a lot of late. The quote I used is from our member Jujigatame, but I have seen more members using more or less the same words. Here's the quote:

 

 

 

Too often, nice guys finish last (because a woman get bored fast by a nice guy that is always available). But that doesn't have to be the case. Learn how to keep being a nice guy while at the same time remaining challenging. At this early stage in the relationship, you need to remain somewhat elusive. Keep her guessing

 

My questions are:

 

1) Why doesn't this apply to women? Why do only men have to act mysterious? Are they considered to be the 'hunters'?

 

2) Why don't men "get bored" of a woman that is always available for him? Or do they get bored?

 

Since this posting is about both men and women, I would like to invite everyone to reply to this posting. Bring in your comments. I am very curious to hear your remarks.

 

Thank you

 

~ SwingFox ~

[Nico1607306451]

I don't think this stereotype applies only to women--I've seen guys pass up wonderful girls to be with a witch plenty of times. I think it all comes down to the person in question's maturaty level--anyone who is truly looking for a serious relationship will look for and stay with the "nice" one--everyone else is just having fun playing mind games. It's VERY aggravating and, like I've said before to my very patient friends, the ones who only want to dink around and mess with people's minds should have to wear a tattoo or something on their forehead to warn the decent people off. 8)

[SwingFox]

Your comments are valid, Nico and I totally 100% agree with you. I would like to apologize and correct my statement a little bit: it has never been my intention to stereotype. I know that there are plenty of exceptions out there, but there is some sort of pattern.

 

If you look around on this forum and read the posts you find on here, people talk about this SO often that it does make me think. That is the exact reason of posting this message on here.

 

I am looking forward to read more from you guys

 

~ SwingFox ~

[jujigatame]

I think both your queries can be explored (perhaps not answered) by taking a look at what evolutionary psychology has discovered. We'll start by examining the fact that men are generally forced to take the aggressive, seeking role in most relationships. Yes, they're the "hunters." This primitive outlook is the root of all the equality problems women have faced throughout history, and still do today. It's an outdated bit of human psychology, a throwback to our caveman genetic heritage that modern civilization has eliminated the need for, but that our past will not let us get rid of so easily. Back in the Cro-Magnon days, men were the ones who took on the aggressive jobs of hunting and crafting weapons and such, because this is what their physical makeup suited them best for. Testosterone impacts heavily on the urge to hunt, fight, and be "manly men" - numerous studies of prison inmates show a positive correlation between above-average testosterone levels and violent crime. Also, muscle-enhancing steroids, which are artificial analogs to testosterone, are linked to increased problems with rage and anger management. Then there's also the fact that men are, on the average, bigger and stronger than women. It was nature's way of providing for the human race - the men secured the food and protected the clan, while the women raised the children and protected the clan's future.

 

Men make something like one hundred thousand sperm cells PER SECOND, whereas women get one ovum per month. The men spread their genes by having sex with lots of different women, while women spread their genes by waiting for the best possible partner to come along. Good-looking, healthy, strong cavewomen pretty much had men lining up for an audition, so to speak, which is where the modern ritual of courtship comes from. Any man that seemed too eager to mate must not have had very many past partners, right? Thus, the woman he was courting was tipped off to the fact that maybe he wasn't all that he was cracking himself up to be.

 

That answers the issue of mysteriousness and unavailability. As for the mystery of why men don't seem to be put off by overtly available women...

 

Because of the fact that men have historically been the "doers", they are expected to have busy schedules. Also, they are expected to put less emphasis on the need for time with their woman. This means that men get to be the gatekeepers: A woman who wants to be with a man all the time still has to fit in with his schedule. That means that an available woman is desirable to many guys, because he can pick and choose when he wants to be with her.

 

Now for a disclaimer: I don't think that men and women should let this primitive caveman mentality get in the way of expressing themselves the way they want to in a relationship. But it's going to butt in no matter what we do, at least until Homo Sapiens is replaced by the new model. As always, it's up to the individual to choose what they want in the long run. We can be ruled by our genes, which are suited best for a short, brutal, painful life, or we can be ruled by wisdom, compassion, and empathy, traits far more valuable in today's society than who can swing a club the hardest.

 

Final note on the nice guy issue: If you believe that nice guys finish last, what are your thoughts on "He who laughs last laughs best?"

 

Thanks for reading this thing.

[sisterlynch]

You cannot say, "this is a nice guy" because nobody is "truly" nice, it is just how intimidated someone seems in a certain situation that causes them to show their "nice" side, because they don't have the confidence to show who they really are, or maybe they never have taken the time to "learn" who they really are. So they put on a false personna of the all around good guy, those around him can choose to bring out the good or the bad, which ever they prefere. (Women do this too, but I think that men invented it!)

 

Nobody is all good or all bad, are they Swingfox? We are good in some situations and bad in others. It all depends on what we think that we can get away with that makes us choose one over the other.

 

It is good to try and be balanced in your opinions of others, try to see others for who they really are and not who they pretend to be. Or who we would "like" them to be.

 

We are all actors on the stage of life, we choose our own roles and behaviors, or we let others choose for us. Either way, we vary our behavior in certain predictable ways. Maybe women see this more than men as women are more emotional learners and men are more physical and visual.

[TearsofaDragon20]

I have read all the replys on here, and what the main concern is why is it that when you do find that wonderful girl doesnt she expect you to be nice? isnt that more of like a image that women want to see? that there's a nice guy in front of her. I know from past relationships that no matter what i do even if i had to make myself i couldnt be any other way but a nice guy. i mean i dont think a woman would like someone who would go and be rude and disrespectful at all. no. but i know that if it really came down to it like it was said before nice guys finish last. but dont get me wrong they may finish last, they do work hard to get that girl they were always looking for. we wont be able to truly anwser this with a correct statement, only opinons. it's just a subject that really cant be handled the way we want to handle it. with women if they get bored (and i have tried this to save what i could with my ex) they dont listen to what you have to say. well if us guys got bored wouldnt the woman want to talk and want you to listen? it goes in a circle that doesnt stop rotating no matter which way you turn it.

[bleeder]

There is some truth in what Fox mentioned.

 

Nice guys have a hard time finishing first. In my opinion, I believe that some women begin take people like that for granted after a while. They would assume that they can do anything they deem fit and these "nice guys" would still be there, waiting on them hand and feet.

 

Of course, these do happen the other way too with guys.

 

I don't know much, but maybe we humans are built this way. Our minds, that is. I am glad to say that I am one who cherishes what I have. I have also learnt to stand up for myself. Being nice has its limits too, especially when you are being cornered and ripped for goodwill.

 

My 2 cents.

[Aura Seeker]

Hi Fox,

 

I would tend to sway to the fact that goats have been worth more than women in sociey for many centuries. It is only in the last hundered years or so that this has changed somewhat in developed areas.

 

With human nature, I think we migrate to what we are used to and comfortable with. Behavior in the homes have not progressed as much as much as the laws. That is where I think the 'bad boy' syndrome started.

 

As for the men going for the women who treat them bad, I think they are products of their environment as well. Overbearing mothers.

 

Just a theory. ;-)

 

AS

[Nico1607306451]

Quoted from jujigatame:

Now for a disclaimer: I don't think that men and women should let this primitive caveman mentality get in the way of expressing themselves the way they want to in a relationship. But it's going to butt in no matter what we do, at least until Homo Sapiens is replaced by the new model. As always, it's up to the individual to choose what they want in the long run.

 

This is exactly what I mean by it being a matter of maturity: you have to be self-aware enough to understand your motives for doing something. People who go out and screw around on their partners are mainly acting on a selfish impulse; they're not taking time to consider what consequenses are going to result. When people drop a "nice" person because they're bored, it's the same thing. I don't think it helps anything to foster a discussion on how to keep someone through these mind games. You have to communicate with your partner: if they're not mature enough to take on a serious relationship and they're not willing to REALLY ask themselves why they're "bored", then I say drop THEM like a hot rock.

[sisterlynch]

The truth is that we are both the primitive cave man/woman on the inside and on the outside we must deal with a complicated society full of people who will sell their own soul to the devil as often as possible (to hurt others).

 

If we only deal with the outerself, then we cannot grow internally. If we only concentrate on our own internal struggles then we don't make a place for ourself in society.

 

Another thing is that people continually fight the same battles over and over without realizing that it is their way of dealing with their issues that is causing them to control others, to act in their own self interest or to blame themselves and be society's victim!

 

So by saying this person is a nice guy, doesn't tell whether they are attractive, healthy, interesting and persuasive. Being a nice guy may be ok, but is doesn't get you in to a worthwhile relationship if you are only acting out of a sense of fear, or desperation. Love shouldn't hurt. It can be tiresome if that is the nature of the people in love. You can never really judge anothers reason for doing something as you are not a mind reader, you can only look at their outer behavior and judge for yourself.

 

People also become emotionally involved and I think physically involved in others business way to quickly now a days.

 

That is my opinion.

[SwingFox]

Hi everyone,

 

Thank you all for all your insight. I am happy to see so many people respond to this posting. The number of responses and contents confirmed my feeling. The topic is very controversial and pretty actual, too.

 

I appreciate all the comments so far... hopefully this topic will grow even bigger with valuable input from other members

 

~ SwingFox ~

[sergio]

Here we are throwing in a lot of cliches, and psychology, which is worthwhile, but void of real substance. like most topics on the genre, it will never lead to any solution. we can keep on asking rhetorical questions all night and discussing cavemen , sapiens, neanderthal and the lot, without making any dent in it. Some facts are as they are, and will always remain this way. useless asking why, we should just accept them and if anything, focus on living and coping with them, not understanding them, because changing them will mean changing us, and human nature is immutable. Love knows no logic either so no amount of psychology will hit the nail on the head.

nice ppl finish last, thats a fact , some men ignore grls that are not a challenge, but only if the grls aren't attractive and haven't got the minimum iq to engage in conversation, i.e are absolute bimbos, or really shallow. women want a challenge and most often say they want one thing then when it comes to the crunch of it, they really want another. men act aloof cause they know that if they are themselves, and say the 3 magic ords, i.e 'i love you ' too often, most often women would say ooh how nice that guy is..BUT...and choose the jerk cause of the challenge. We have no answer for it, no one has, if a grl is good looking and nice...well frankly speaking me including most guys i know would not push her away.

There are exceptions everywhere of course, but i believe that this is the general run of things.

And just for realism's sake...nice ppl don't always get the last laugh and find the person of their dreams....life isn't always fair and we should know it. The best thing we can do is adapt , accept ourselves and find fulfillment...the rest follows.

[slash]

it was veru interesting reading all the post about this because i consider myself one of the "nice guys", if i like a women i try to to to hard to make her happy sometimes i laugh at myself and have no idea why i do things the way i do. and i think "nice guys finish last" quote is only true with 50% of women, or just depends on the woman.

[MikeTheGenius]

well, i personally agree with the "nice guys finish last" thing. im not rationalizing it, afterall, it really is STUPID. A mans worth should not be measured by how much of a egotistical jerk he is. I mean what girl could possibly be happy with a jerk for a husband?!

Uhh...back to the point of my post: as much as i hate the fact that this is true, it is. in my short life, ive seen millions of instances where the jerk gets the girl and the nice guy gets the misery. i dont understand what women see in them.

[Gilgamesh]

Im also one of those "nice guys" and im not taliking the wimpy throw my coat on the ground worship thy highness "nice guy" but the type that, respects women, how is romantic, trusts, and is faithful. and NOT boring, and yet I have gotten, lied too, cheated on, and just plain used. now ill have to say that 90% of all the women that I had as G/F did regret leaving me, but If I cant trust the person Im with, I just wont go back to them.

 

What we are forgetting is that the complaints/problems that we see in these forums are of the "Nice" men and women that had partenrs that didnt appreciate them, but Im sure there are millions of couples that are very happy with there "Nice" girl or guy.

 

I Admit being a "Nice" guy but Im not nice to someone who isnt nice to me, its a two way street. when I find that Nice girl that appreciates having a nice guy, Ill be one happy camper.

[sisterlynch]

When my husband was being abused, coherced and monitored by a coworker who was too "beautiful" to say no to, all that he could tell me was that she was nice and I wasn't! So to pay her back, I revealed her for the (*****) that I knew she was! I told her not to see him anymore, she didn't like her free ride being taken back, let me tell you that!

 

Now I'm the nice one and she doesn't exist! Nice is all in the eye of the beholder!

 

A couple weeks later another married friend of ours met her in the park and also remarked how "nice!" she was. This nice girl gets around people's husbands, let me tell you!

[Gilgamesh]

LOL sisterlynch I know about those type of "nice" girls, the ones with an agenda, My girlfriend and I once worked together in the same office, there was this other secretary that was ever sooooo nice to me, on my girlfriends days off, she would wear sexy clothing and ask me to help her with little chores, and basically flirt with me. But you see, Im pretty much immune to her charms, because when I love someone, I really love someone, and couldnt even imagine ever cheating on her, it would be like cheating on myself.

 

But this secretarys flirtations were making my girl jeolous anyway, so I did something to fix that problem, I started flirting back, when she asked me what I wanted of her, I told her, absolutely nothing, that I was just flirting to make her feel good, after that things calmed down a bit, and a few weeks later she found herself another guy. I used her own weapon against her, If only my girl knew half of the things I did for our relationship, oh well...........

[sisterlynch]

You are too cool. The place where he's working now, he has a pretty cute coworker; but I basically went in and scoped out the place, it is a smaller working environment where that sort of thing would be frowned upon. However, I sometimes wonder if it is going on again. He also has a coworker from his former working establishment who may have just warned her to keep a safe distance, which I think is always good advice in male/female working establishments. She (this new coworker) doesn't get as close,physically, as she used to. I try not to let it bother me. You cannot really change the past, you can only pay attention to the future and work in the here and now!

 

About 2 weeks ago he called me lazy and I said, and who are you comparing me to? I know this girl that he works with is an overachiever! He couldn't answer that one! Over the weekend I went swimming (for exercise) and after showering, I was talking to him and he stared at my eyes like I had blood coming out of them and said there is something under your eyes! I knew that it was probably mascara, so I said "would you rather I be healthy or have perfect makeup!?"

 

He is starting to get his confidence back after working in this job for about 8-9 months and he has been exercizing too, by riding his bike. He comes from a very male dominant family and I from a female dominant family, so we run into these sorts of things alot! We must give each other a little space at times!

 

He is the "ultimate" nice guy at work, that was why that original woman liked him so much too. Everyone likes him and he doesn't "act" like he knows it which is a good deal of his charm! In order to get through the original dilemma that I found myself in, I spoke to another of their coworkers to see what had been going on behind my back. She had been concerned over their relationship but felt that it was out of her control. She was also somewhat surprised to hear how he had turned abusive toward me. Now I realize that it was a part of the harassment that he was receiving from the beautiful woman. The type that no man can resist. Someone told me that she is really gay, but I have no way of judging that true or false! I think I will write a book called the Scarlet O'Hara Syndrom! How does that sound for a title?

[Majere1972]

Just for context and possibly responsive purposes, my reply to the "nice guys finish last", i will try to make short...if possible.

I am "one " of the perfect examples of the nice guys. After many years of trial and error, I have found that the reason for this "aperture" of men, is simply that alot of the times, they look for the most available, or the one that shows interest. In this, they never truly get to experience what they want. my solution to this is the answer that alot of psychologists prefer to call an "ism" It's too vague to actually give a true respectable answer for any one situation, but what the perfect solution to something like this would be to just be you. If you concentrate on you, and what you want, and strive to get what you want and need, then people seem to look at you differently. I gave up on looking and concentrated on my own life. Once I started on the up and up, my attitude changed drastically, because I wasn't always worried so much about being alone. I had other things and opportunities to look forward to which made me happy. Everyone started to notice this, and flocked in my direction. It's really simple if you think about it. Be you. Be for you, and things will most likely go better for you in all aspects and directions. 8)

 

"Don't expect to keep someone happy, if you can't be happy with yourself!"

[Trinity1607306450]

I have certainly dated men who were touted as 'nice guys' only to find them too accommodating. Personally, I enjoy a challenge. By this I mean that I like to be stimulated intellectually, and like a man who has his own beliefs and rituals. I have dated men who were like 'sponges' and seemed not to have a personality of their own. Despite liking a challenge, there is nothing more endearing than honesty and vulnerability. I love when a man is able to say that he is falling in love with you or that he may feel threatened by a situation. This encourages communication which is HUGE in my book. Do nice guys finish last? Sometimes. All depends on your perception of things, I suppose. GB [/i]