Lunabelle

Dark- do you have children? Have you ever been more concerned with someone else than you are with yourself? Isn't that part of what being an adult is all about? I find much of what you write is just dumb. I specifically spelled out what I was hoping for, advice on how to better live with the lifestyle I chose. If you think it's all that simple, "just pack my bags and leave" you are seriously misunderstanding the whole issue here. I ignored your first comment about how I was "weak" (Did I ask for an assessment of my character?), but now you state I am "playing games" and "not facing reality"? Dark, I would prefer you did not provide further input to my OP. Thank you.

Scout, you've given me something to think about. Yes, I'm angry, I clearly spelled that out in my OP, that's no underlying current you're feeling. Yes, I feel negative about all of it. I'm only here because of some accidental meeting of egg and sperm. I only continue to be here because I resist the temptations to jump off cliffs or drive into a pole at high speed. Yes, I withdrew from him. What idiot would keep offering herself, emotionally and sexually, to a man who continues to hurt her? Any man who feels I am obliged to meet his sexual needs must be prepared to meet at least some of my emotional needs. Just because I didn't expand on all the problems I feel he has caused doesn't mean they aren't there. Amazingly enough, everyone comments about my anger and my negative stuff but no questions about his porn addiction? I'm thinking about why I even posted in the first place, I think I am looking for suggestions for more successfully living my chosen "alternative" lifestyle. I knew I would see posts that said, divorce him. I knew I would get responses that said, look at your part in it. I don't see how people can "objectively" view their own marriage. That's like trying to be objective about your own big toe, you just can't, you're connected to it, it's you and you're it and there's no whiff of objectivity at all. Maybe someone can tell me how people go about starting over, is that what we need to do? I just can't seem to forgive and forget. Forget, yes. I guess I'm just trying to get up the guts to leave him. Crush my children, sell the house, move on. Sounds so great, I can hardly wait.

hey hardcharger, I like your advice. I admit I had this thought myself. It just seems like a rotten way to start a relationship, hidden and furtive. And even if it's all above board between the two cheaters, it can still hurt! Thanks for taking time to reply. RCoach -- I agree with you too! Staying particularly rubs against my grain of being responsible for my own happiness, of facing my fears, of setting & maintaining the whole boundaries issues, of being the example for my kids. I've been reading a lot about the "love bank" concept and I realize we're just constantly making withdrawals from each our accounts and never putting anything back in......I know I'm one tough broad, so to speak, but how long could he deal with this? I gotta say he's made it a lot longer than I thought he would, which proves my theory that he's a lot more screwed up emotionally than he likes to think. He apparently doesn't believe he deserves any better either. I suppose we'll just hash it out another couple years and see what cards we're dealt over time...I know my life is going to keep changing quite a bit as my children age, and I look forward to those changes, I'm so ready for something new, being a working parent is grueling to say the least. But I had to laugh about having an affair. I knew how to do that when we I was young and pretty (although I never did it!) but now? About all I have left to offer is my sparkling personality lol. And I certainly can't meet someone in town, everyone knows me as a married woman. I keep my eyes open around the office, not for co-workers (no way) but you know, vendors and sales reps or other people you come in contact with.....the only guy I've come in to contact with definitely gave me the right messages.....but his baggage was no suitcase, it was a tractor trailer rig overflowing and it didn't feel right....I keep his number around but have never had the nerve to use it....what do you say? yeah, I'm still married, but do ya wanna go out for coffee? I guess so!

It makes me nervous that you wrote about how you eventually agree with him just to shut him up....this is a coping mechanism you've adopted to "save the marriage"...been there done that, my friend....and let me say after 20 years of this, it really sucks......some people call this verbal abuse while some think it's actually the way normal relationships work, but I think it's demeaning, insulting that he must constantly "win" the disagreements by obtaining my full and utter acquiesense to his every thought. The long term result of this is now I won't discuss anything with him, I'm tired of being the one to compromise, there is no actual compromise, it's me giving in to him. does this sound familiar? Him verbally pounding you, (or you him) until you agree with him is not a sign of Love, dear. That's how a child behaves. You better think this one through very carefully. I wish I had dealt with this some other way, it has not been a happy experience for me, and our relationship even in the early days was as you describe, moody and grouchy and those bad feelings are big signs that all is not well.

Yeah, we've done the therapy route. A few years of it, actually. I still see the therapist a couple times a month, dear husband "did not have time". Therapy helped me see what a narcissistic, passive-aggressive clod the DH really is, and what an idiot I've been for allowing the verbal abuse over the years. The therapist feel strongly about how harmful divorce will be for the children, and I know his views color my own, even as I admit I am of two minds about the whole divorce or not issue. As a rule, I say not, but then again when I "made" that rule, I never imagined being in the spot I'm in, isn't that always the way it happens? I see my own contributions to the problems, but I don't care. I don't love him anymore. It's just an endurance question at this stage. I don't care that he hurts and he's lonely too. After 20 years of not mattering to him, I've finally figured out that quote about how insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. And I chose sanity. I'm not doing the same thing (arguing with him or defending myself) and I'm no longer expecting any results. It's better that way, the pain is less but the loneliness takes its place. By the way, thanks for listening/reading. See, I'm doing it again, I'm so desperate for contact I have to show gratitude every time anyone's even remotely nice to me. I'm disgusted by my own pathetic-ness. I seem to range between being needy and being repulsed by my own neediness and I'm pretty darn confused right now.

Your wife is not "afraid of being lonely", she is lonely. Her role in the family is changing as the children age, this is normal. It may take her a few years to find her new place in life. You don't adjust to parenthood overnight, it takes a while. Being around children ALL day is an incredibly demanding job. Perhaps she's also questioning her career? Maybe that's ready for an overhaul. I agree that you two need to spend time together. Consider making some future plans, like a special vacation or doing a project that is meaningful to her, it will go a long way to making her feel that you really are there for her. I'm almost sorry someone brought up the menopause idea, yes her hormones have changed and will change, but I'll bet there's a whole lot more going on than that. Don't give up on her. She needs you and you need her. Maybe she needs to see the beauty of what's coming next in life. She'll have lots more time than she's ever had before -- increasing as the years go by, how will she spend that time? She wants to know that as she ages you still find her attractive and you still want her and care for her. You will probably have to go out of your way to prove this point to her, she's probably feeling lonely and left out and vulnerable and confused too.

I'm warning you all now this is a long post. I apologize in advance. I have a lot to get off my chest. I long to hear that there's others out there in similar weird situations, that I'm not the only one. I don't know which forum I should really post in. Been married 20 years. Gasp! And it hasn't been great. Basically your garden-variety lackluster relationship. 20 years. Jeez I can't believe it. 3 kids, ages 15, 13, 11. I filed for divorce in 2002. He convinced me to drop the whole thing. And I did, and I regret it. Now we share our home, sleeping in separate rooms for the last year, and are raising our kids. We are like roommates but every so often we have an ugly argument. No sex, no fun, just sheer endurance every day. Holidays, birthdays are torture and I don't even acknowledge our anniversary. I'm staying married for my kids. So I can provide them the home they've always known. It does suck, but when suck is all you've ever known, it's still home. I hate my husband. I alternate between hatred and pity for him. Through a huge amount of working on myself, therapy, self-talk, etc I've been able to get my own act together. Got out of bed and found myself a great job so I can support myself nicely. It's been a lifetime of listening to him criticize me. Primarily we're talking verbal abuse. I don't know what to call the other stuff he's done. His method of coping when I was too depressed to eat or get out of bed was to stand and scream at me to get up and take care of the house. His addiction to internet porn was a problem for me too. Not any more. I don't care anymore. I wish I cared. I want to care. But I don't. Too much hurt under the bridge. Like the country song says, My Give A Damn is broken. I've recently come to understand that all this time I thought he loved me, I was just a prop to help him love himself. And when I don't my duty in that way, he turns on me. Never mind, I don't even want to talk about him. Am I crazy for thinking I can stay with him a few more years, just for the sake of the kids? The kids know, obviously, they're not dumb. I've told them that even though he has asked me to leave in front of them, that I will not leave them, no matter what. I see how torn the kids are between us. They certainly aren't seeing how to have a real relationship, a meaningful loving relationship. Kids just want their parents together, no matter what. They don't care that the relationship hurts one of the parents (or both of them), they're kids, they can't go there conceptually and I understand that. I don't ask them to choose between us but of course they also feel the strain of the horrible marriage, the tension, the irritability, the ugliness. Staying in this marriage makes me feel so useless, so ugly, so unwanted and hateful. How can I stay? How can I go? How can I rip apart the only life my kids have ever known? Living here is one of the hardest things I've had to do. I've stayed for 20 years, what's a few more? I just try to ignore him as much as possible and go about my life. It's the loneliness that hurts so bad. I can't pursue any other relationship while I'm still embroiled in this one. But jeez I am so lonely for interesting adult company. I see myself being overly friendly to people at work and around me because I'm so desperate for companionship. My other friends are also super-busy in their mom-ness and/or working. My one close friend is wonderful, but I can't crush her with my needs. I'm just so lonely. It seems to me that someone, somewhere, would find me a worthwhile, interesting person and want to care for me and love me and be with me. Living with a man who doesn't is more painful than I imagined it would be when I decided to move into the other room instead of move out of the house. I am alienated from my family, none lives in california anyway and as my outspoken sister-in-law likes to say, "who wants to visit when the marriage is in trouble?" I guess when they made that decision they never imagined we'd last 20 years. And I am angry that my family has not provided any help for me to escape. I've realized at my "advanced age" that I have abandonment issues, not imagined ones or unfound fears but I have the issues for valid reasons. I've spent my life feeling unwanted, and continue to do so, and my desperation for love and acceptance embarrasses me. Frankly I feel like my life is over, I've shot my wad so to speak, it's all down hill from here. I go about my life like it's one big charade. I work quite successfully. I do volunteer work and cook dinner for my kids and drive them to practice and scouting and go to their games. In most ways I'm just a normal middle-aged Mom raising a family. But underneath it all I'm angry, I'm lonely and feel cheated out of a happy life. Is this really all there is? Of course I would have left him long ago if we had not had children. My duty to them overrides any feelings for myself. My parents have taught me how it feels to have parents who can't or won't make time for you, who aren't phyically there for you, or who in so many ways just make it clear that you don't matter. I recently realized I'm more angry at my parents than I've admitted before. I also see that resolving the crap with my parents probably won't accomplish much. I don't think it can actually be resolved. It's not like they can (or will) apologize and that makes it all better. It sure as heck won't improve my relationship with them. It sure as heck won't improve my marriage or my self-worth. I've got to deal with all that on my own. I'm tired of fighting the depression. I'm tired of thinking I brought on all these problems because I was somehow insufficient or damaged goods. I'm not. But I sure as heck allowed so many other people to use me and hurt me in the name of loving me. I've turned rather cynical. Man-hating sometimes. People-hating is a better description. I've found the balls to get on with things, I'm working full time even though I feel so guilty about not being there for my children after school. Why can't I get up the nerve to leave this marriage? What could I possibly be afraid of? I already have nothing, emotionally. Is writing this post just an exercise in self-punishment, mental torture to make myself feel something, after trying to numb myself from it all? Why do I take it all so seriously?