LifeArtist

Excellent advice from Paisley80 and the others, in my opinion. My wife and I were engaged at 24 after a year of dating. It probably wasn't too soon, nor do I think we made a mistake; however, my future wife was a fairly conservative Catholic girl and I either kept some of my skeletons in the closet or minimized their importance to me. As a result, I've had to keep certain aspects of myself in check over our 20 yrs of marriage. Things like some liberal political leanings, enjoyment of porn, feelings that occasional use of marijuana is okay, and a desire to spend money a little more freely than she likes. As long as I keep the skeletons deeply hidden in the closet, things seem fine in the marriage. But it isn't easy knowing that some of my preferences are unacceptable in my partner's eyes. There have been conflicts when I've pursued something that she doesn't like. And I've seriously contemplated divorce so that I can feel free to fully be me. The point of all of this is that you should listen to the above quote. Don't get married for the wrong reasons. You may end up regretting it.

P.S. -- I also disagree with the idea that it's "all her fault". Each of us has complete responsibility for our responses to others (response-ability). You may feel that your wife's behavior is unacceptable, yet you have been "accepting" it for years. You may not realize just how much you have been facilitating her behavior by putting up with it. Believe me, I realize how complicated it may be to get out of a bad situation, especially when children are involved. But the key is not whether or not your wife will "get better" -- it is what YOU choose to do.

I wanted to read your thread, Hardcharger, after seeing parallels between our situations in your responses to me on another thread. One apparent difference is the level of concern over what those in the community will think. That may be related to the fact that we are relatively new to the town. Besides, it's not all that unusual for "community leaders" to go through divorce. I hate to give up the good family times myself. I pretty much like my wife's family and have enjoyed the many family get togethers over the years. I don't know how old your children are, but mine are getting to the age when I know things will be changing anyway, divorce or no divorce. I'm also a "stay at home" husband/dad. (By "stay at home" I mean in my non-working hours.) No real hobbies or close friends. My wife is my best friend other than my kids, so it really sucks when our relationship isn't going well. Thank God for my job! I have also made the decision that I must address the situation. My wife and I talked yesterday about counseling. I think I only got her to agree to give it an honest try under the threat of divorce. She seemed about ready to go through with divorce rather than go to counseling, but seemed to think better of it. I would be surprised if she got MORE than half of everything. She may get half, plus child support and alimony, but would that really be so bad? It sounds like you have significant marital assets. How tough would it be financially? My wife and I also have significant assets to split, plus I'm sure I would be paying child support and alimony; however, freedom seems more attractive to me than feeling wealthy and trapped. I also differ on the need for a woman in my life. I'm not opposed to the idea of dating post divorce, but I also like the idea of getting to know myself better and practicing freedom for awhile. It's hard for me to imagine that a community leader such as yourself couldn't figure out how to cook, clean, and do laundry for himself. I don't mean to sound like I'm promoting divorce for you, but you may need a plan B if your wife refuses counseling or if she is unwilling to make changes. As Mun said above, she knows the idea of divorce scares you and she has you by the *****. There is little motivation for her to change. On the other hand, maybe she WANTS to change but doesn't know how. Perhaps you can help motivate her by saying that YOU need couples counseling.

Thanks! I do realize that for our relationship to be what I want it to be, I must focus on what I can change about myself and my behavior. We talked about counseling and she was resistant, as I expected. But I was firm and said it was what I needed to save our relationship. I said if we went through a divorce without trying couples counseling that it was likely that one or both of us would always wonder, "What if ... ?" So; she says she's willing to give it a shot. Hooray!

Hardcharger: That sounds exactly like my relationship! And a lot like the relationship my in laws had. My wife has a lot of anger towards her mother and misses her father so much. I don't really know how her father did it all those years, but it seems that his friends, outside activities, and drinking helped. Ironically, my wife's greatest fear is that she is turning into her mother! That's probably my most effective tact to take -- I refuse to allow our relationship to be like that of her parents. And I really don't think we can pull it off without outside help. I really appreciate the wisdom and sharing on this list. I think there are a lot of parallels between some of our situations.

No, that's part of "the talk". I'm starting to realize that it isn't so much about her changing -- it's about our relationship changing. If I change my behavior in relationship to her, then our relationship will be different and it will be up to her how she will change, if at all. Suggesting relationship counseling shows that I'm not just going to throw away 20 yrs of marriage without trying to improve it into something I can live with. And I also see how counseling will probably help me, even if she refuses. I actually doubt that she will refuse, but I don't think it will be easy for her (counseling). I need to be able to communicate better and learn to deal with my feelings more constructively. Defensiveness, withdrawal, and passive aggressive behavior are not setting a very good example for my children. I don't think I can put off the counseling talk for much longer. She wants to make a significant investment with her brother and neice in a vacation home. I'm saying no, but I'm not telling her why. I think that is the last thing we should do right before going through a divorce! It may turn out that this weekend is the right time. I don't think I'll bring up the D word in the conversation, but I need to tell her that I'm not happy with our relationship and that I feel we need to do some couples counseling. Wish me luck! I'll let you all know how it goes.

I do think counseling is worth a shot; however, I don't see it happening if she does not want it. I've heard of "divorce counseling" and how it might facilitate a positive post-divorce relationship. We may start with "couples/marriage counseling" and watch it morph into divorce counseling if the situation is as dismal as I perceive it. I'm an idealist at heart. I grew up seeing my father dominate my mother with her willingly going along. If they ever considered divorce, they never told me. But I was angry at what I saw -- at him for treating my mother the way he did and at her for putting up with it. My ideal for a marriage/partnership was a team -- two equals who worked togther, supporting each other, the whole greater than the sum of the parts. I thought if I married a strong woman I would avoid the trap of making my partner less than she could be. Instead, I fell into a completely unexpected trap -- my wife is the domineering partner in our marriage and I am the submissive one. And I'm tired of it. I feel that same anger that I once felt at my mother, but now direct it at myself. Why do I put up with that kind of treatment? My self-loathing has translated into loathing of my wife. Even though I have facilitated her behavior by going along with it and allowing her to have her way, I AM SICK OF IT! She uses her anger and her tongue as weapons. Frankly, I'm afraid of her. I don't take criticism well. At this point, I don't WANT to talk to her about it. I know I have to, but I dread it. So "the talk" is a good idea. Counseling is a good idea. Perhaps a trial separation is a good idea before divorce. But I need to become an equal in this marriage before I can make it work. How often does a dominant partner willingly give up some of their power?

I found this site about "working on your relationship": Everybody thinks, professionals and non-professionals alike, they say to have a happy marriage or a happy relationship, you have to work at it. But I say that it's the working that makes it not work. When you criticize, you're working at improving your mate. When you complain to your lover, you're working at improving them. When you argue, you're working at improving them. When you try to reason with them. When you tell them how much you love them. Both when you're reasoning and when you're telling them how much you love them, you are trying to change them. You are working at changing them. And it's that working at changing them, that is the only problem. Proof? You want proof? Stop all of that, and watch the relationship get better. Stop all of that working. Allow and accept, one hundred percent, whatever your mate thinks, feels, or does is perfectly okay. It's perfectly okay. And watch them improve themselves. Their negative feelings towards you will weaken rapidly, because their negative feeling needs something in you to fight with. And when you sincerely see what's on their side, when you sincerely agree with them, and when you lovingly and sincerely go one hundred percent totally, instantly, and happily your mate's way, when you do that there's nothing for their negative feeling to build on. You have put the white flag up. You've thrown your gun down. That forces them to do the same thing. They cannot shoot you when you have no gun. When you're not defending yourself, THEY want to defend you. It's not normal to not defend yourself, but it is healthy. Agree with them. Do not disagree at all. It's not to your advantage. It's a dumb thing to do. link removed

Thanks for the ideas. I tend to agree that every case is unique and decisions must be made based on the particulars of the situation. Although I would predict that the path I am on will end up in divorce, I will try to be as open as possible when I talk to my wife. If I get the sense that she sincerely wants to save the marriage by working on it, I cannot imagine not giving it a shot. She has never been comfortable with counseling or with verbalizing her feelings. The emotion that she is best at expressing is anger. She acknowledges that she has "issues" (who doesn't?), but seems unwilling to do what is necessary to address them. Certainly I am no saint. I just really question whether I will be satisfied with the restrictions on my freedom that I feel right now. Maybe we can discuss my feelings in counseling and maybe it will help, but I'm pretty pessimistic at this point. As for whether it would be worse for our kids to live in a household with a crappy marriage versus a divorce situation, the point is moot to me. I'm not going to accept the crappy marriage option any longer. It will either be divorce or an improved marriage. I'll try to let you all know what happens.

It's going to be interesting making the choice to live the life of a bachelor again. Before I started dating my wife, I was lonely. I wanted a partner, a companion, someone to share a life together, to raise a family with. I ignored/minimized our differences. I figured I could adapt myself to create marital harmony. And I did! But a few years ago I began to question whether I was happy with who I had become. Was being a good father, husband, and worker enough for me? As I questioned my roles and choices, I began to explore changes. I found my wife was pretty much UNsupportive, probably understandably so. The status quo was more to her liking than it was to mine. This is SO hard! Who KNOWS who they really are in their twenties? Who they might want to become, particularly 20 years down the road? How can a couple KNOW that they will be compatible "till death do you part"? What if the marriage is limiting the personal growth and development of one or both partners? Is that enough to divorce over, particularly if children are involved? My decision is ultimately selfish. I am doing what I think is best FOR ME. Is it best for my wife? my daughter? I don't know. What if it isn't the best thing for them? Should I deny my wants in service of theirs? Lot's of questions for me to ponder. Like I said before, no need to render advice. But feel free to share your thoughts and your own experiences.

I've posted bits and pieces of my story on other threads, but I've decided to tell my story more completely in this one. I'm not particularly looking for advice. Rather I'm posting this in the spirit of sharing. This site is called "eNotAlone" and I feel less alone by sharing with others. I've decided to file for divorce after 20 yr of marriage. I will wait until after the holidays, schedule a first consultation with my lawyer, and then decide when to talk to my wife. We have two teenage children -- a boy who is a junior in high school and an eigth grade girl. Although my wife has threatened to leave me in times of anger, I don't think she will allow herself to be the one to end the marriage. We may be both miserable, but if anyone is going to take this step it will have to be me. It has taken me quite a while to get to this point. Although I have contemplated divorce many times over the years, I always thought it would be best for the kids and for me as a father to make a go of the marriage. I love the fact that I have been able to live in the same house as them for all these years. Perhaps it is a midlife crisis for me, but my questioning has been going on for several years and has only seemed to intensify. I finally feel that it is time to choose happiness for myself (and quite possibly for my wife as well). I feel that it is up to me to decide what I want the rest of my life to be like. I won't go into details on how I have come to this decision in this post. A superficial answer is that we have been growing apart. I don't have feelings of love for her anymore, nor does she seem to have them for me. We "love" each other, but we don't seem to like each other much. There seems to be an ongoing war between us -- sometimes cold, sometimes hot. It feels like I have a roommate who happens to sleep in the same bed and who really doesn't seem to like me much. We are easily irritated with each other and take verbal potshots at the other. My son pretty much does his own thing as much as possible, but our daughter hangs out with us quite a bit. She makes comments about how we are not very nice to each other and don't seem to love each other. Neither of us makes much effort to disagree. I have to run now, but will probably come back later and post some more.

Gotnow and hardcharger: I think we could form a club! I have similar issues in my marriage. We happen to have kids, and I have thought for some time that it was best for me to stay in the marriage until they are on their own. I'm starting to doubt the wisdom of that decision. My daughter, with whom I am very close, has complained to me that it is hard for her to listen to my wife's constant criticism of me, especially when I'm not there. Of course, it also hurts that my wife criticizes her as well. It just doesn't seem like a healthy situation for the children to grow up in. Besides, I'm no saint and my simmering resentment often results in my not being very nice to my wife. I do love her and want the best for her as a person, although not at the expense of my own happiness. I can't help but wonder if the opportunity for her to move on and create the life of her own choosing wouldn't be the best. I was a manager in my last job and one of the things I heard in seminars and read in books was that for some people, being fired from a position that was a poor fit ended up being the best thing that ever happened to them. I did fire a couple of people who WERE poor fits to their jobs but moved away before I ever heard how it worked out for them. There have been times in the past when I talked about divorce and my wife essentially begged me for the opportunity to change and to make things work. The problem is that she is NOT comfortable with the idea of counseling and I don't think that trying to change for someone else has much chance of success. You have to want to change FOR YOURSELF. I think back on my decision to marry and I wonder if I was very smart about it. I didn't pay much attention to our differences and probably doubted my ability to find someone who was a better fit. Even if we do divorce, I'm not sure that I would characterize our marriage as a mistake. We have two wonderful children, a pretty nice financial nest egg, and a lot of great memories. And how do you know if you have really given up, that there is no hope for a better marriage? How do you know if divorce will be the best thing you ever did or if you will have regrets for the rest of your life or if you will continue to repeat the same "mistakes" with future relationships? I cannot predict the future any more than I can change the past. What I can do is try to understand my now and to make my best decision, given my current understanding of myself. My decision in this now is to not suggest/choose divorce right before Christmas and a family trip to visit my mom. But I do feel the choice of divorce in the near future solidifying within.

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I don't know about "legal" separation, but I do have some experience with living apart for awhile. My wife stayed behind with the kids for 5 months when I took a new job. It was quite an experience for me! It has been years since I lived as a bachelor and I really loved the freedom! It has been harder to take the nagging and criticism, the being told what to do and what not to do since that time. So if you are really unsure whether or not you want a divorce, a time of separation may be beneficial. If you know in your heart that divorce is the right thing to do, then it makes sense to just do it once and be done with it. Of course, you have children (if I remember correctly from another thread), so you will have some sort of relationship with your wife/ex no matter what path you take.

I'm going through some of the same questions. I haven't wanted to leave both for the kids AND for myself and my desire to see them every day. I've been searching the Internet for advice and answers and have found some pretty good stuff. One has to do with what will NOT work to save the marriage -- opposition and trying to change your spouse. You say everything is your fault in your wife's mind? Well, good luck trying to change that. You want her to take more responsibility and show less hostility? Defense and opposition will not work. One counselor talks about emotional jujitsu -- using the force and power of the other to your own advantage. They are right (in their own mind) and that is reality (to them). The harder you push against them, the harder they will push back. I too want to fully be myself and question whether I can have that in this marriage. What I'm trying to figure out now is how to talk this through and explore our options. It may be time to have conversations that we should have had before we ever decided to marry. Be that as it may, one still has to decide what you want in your life here on out.

I just found this forum in an effort to figure out what to do in my marriage. It has been helpful to see some of the different perspectives. I will not share my story in the hopes of getting advice. I don't want usurp Rippedapart's thread and can start my own thread if I want to get advice on my own issues. Instead, my intent is to add my piece to the discussion. I have been married for over 15 years and have been thinking about divorce for some time now. My spouse has also talked about leaving in fits of anger, but I don't think she has it in her to initiate divorce -- unless I were to give her an obvious reason, such as infidelity. What it comes down to for me is figuring out what it is that I really want and accepting it. Then I can act to make it so. What I don't like about the marriage is that I don't feel capable of fully being myself. I feel like I am living a lie, playing a role, and suppressing parts of myself in the interest of peace on the home front. How much longer am I willing to do this? At what point do I say yes to being who I really am? I think I am about at that point, but there is a lot of talking to be done. I do want to hear what she has to say. Maybe she will allow me more freedom in an effort to save the marriage (and by freedom, I'm not talking about infidelity). Maybe a trial separation is a good option before jumping into divorce. Maybe she also feels that now is the time to try to divorce as amicably as possible. Ultimately, this is a very personal decision. I get the sense that some here feel that there is no "good" reason to divorce. Others feel divorce is only a last resort. My own opinion is that sometimes you just decide that divorce is the best thing for yourself -- and that's good enough.