education/career matters?

[longhaircats]

My ex boyfriend and I had very different backgrounds in terms of education (he has a high school diploma and I have a master's degree, now working toward PhD) and career goals (he likes stability and I like challenge). Although we fell in love each other, I believe that our incompatibility contributed a lot to our breakup in a long run.

 

So now I am back to dating scene and meet many people with different backgrounds and I don't know what kind of standards should I set for a guy I go on a date. I prefer my date to have a college degree or higher. But should I be open to a date with someone who doesn't have high education? I am aware that some people have successful career without college degree but I am talking about more general case. I personally think college degree is a proof that he/she can stick with something for 4 years, and my ex never had that ability.

[arwen]

Hey cats!

 

I recognize your thoughts. Like you I am working on my PhD, as is my bf by the way. I had a sort of dating situation with a friend (we were both single for a long time, so it went beyond normal friendship for a while... friends with benefits you might say). He is a bit like your ex, with a schooldiploma but loads of work experience of different jobs. But we really didn't understand each other in that way, which is why we never were in an actual serious relationship.

 

I think that it's nothing to be ashamed of, but also that you can't shut off possibilities with someone who has other another kind of career than you have. It depends on the reason and the drive of a person I think. I know that both my mother and my father could have been far much more educated if they hadn't be born just after WWII. Also my grandfather had his PhD only when he was like 40, also because of the war. Until you get to know a person, you really don't know. Not all people can afford college (I barely could and I will pay for it for a long time!).

 

I'd be a bit loose on 'standards' and just keep things casual until you know if there is a compatibility you are looking for. Plus, why not look for nice men within your own crowd so to say? Do you often go for drinks with other PhD students? Those things?

 

I know that for me, I happened to meet my exes in 'academic' circles, so I actually never had a relationship with someone who didn't have a MA or PhD. But I'd be open for it, I think. On the other hand, I rarely meet people who are not in that same circle... I am not much of a socializer, and my circle is just small (not much time left between my bf and the long days at my work! I am sure you know how that is...

 

Arwen

[Karhu]

In the initial stages chemistry is very important

 

In later stages in a relationship communication is the most important thing.

 

Education will naturally change someone’s mindset and so you have more in common to talk about, but that’s just one of the many topics that can be talked about, hobbies, dancing, spirituality, philosophies, technical things, etc.

 

I think there is way too much emphasis on education/career, the key to a successful relationship is not how much money someone makes (as you see many unhappy wives with rich educated husbands that are never home and never have time for loving their wife). Happiness is a state of mind. Similar education is a minute aspect of compatibility as you might have one more thing to talk about. chemistry and communication are important. Education is only a small factor of compatibility and i definitely wouldn’t put it on some list of requirements about who you date.

[mintblossom]

i find women more forgiving and willing to give a man a chance. and i really think they shouldn't.

 

i have dated men with lower education levels than me. that is, i've dated high school dropouts and high school graduates and graduates from colleges i've never heard of. the thing with this is.......you have to watch your back. since he knows you have more education/credentials, he may be insecure, or jealous and try to bring you down. i've had it happen to me.....i can't explain WHY the hell they would do this. but i know it happens.

 

another thing with career...if you like making more than him, expect him to try and get you to pay for dinners, movies, and to shoulder any other costs. it's not fun to feel like a sugar mommy or a wallet. it's also no fun when you try to talk to him about your career aspirations and you feel like he is secretly jealous and just wants to drag you down with him. it hurts.

 

or when you ask him what he would like to do in the future and he says...."i want to go work in the sun, maybe construction." and you're like...huh?? the highest he aspires to is construction worker?

[NeedingSumHelp]

Long haired cats,

 

You may want to check out "Oh dear Gawd, help". I recently posted it in the 'dating' section here. It is about the same issue of dating inside and outside your educational class. However, I have been labeled an 'untouchable' in my own class because my background, outside of academea, has put me at the top of the competition ladder for my male counterparts. There are diverse opinions mentioned in the comments. But, you may find Caro's most intriguing.

 

I truly do believe that this IS how a lot of men feel. Clearly, by the responses alone on the ENA site are indicitive of this. Education does matter... it is more of a double standard for men though.

[longhaircats]

I'd be a bit loose on 'standards' and just keep things casual until you know if there is a compatibility you are looking for. Plus, why not look for nice men within your own crowd so to say? Do you often go for drinks with other PhD students? Those things?

 

Yes that would be the best. My previous ex was a PhD student when I was a MA student and my ex husband, who now has MBA with successful career, was a college sweet heart. So my recent ex was the first person whom I met in a non-academic circle. I meet people in my current university, but men in their late 20s to 30s in my department are all married/engaged or in a serious relationship!! My friend who is working on MBA at the same uni was also complaining that there is no available single men in her department. So I am trying to meet people outside the academic circle.

 

AussieSuomissa, thanks for your input. I am still keeping my options open, but I am just scared to make the same mistake as I did with my ex.

[longhaircats]

i find women more forgiving and willing to give a man a chance. and i really think they shouldn't.

 

another thing with career...if you like making more than him, expect him to try and get you to pay for dinners, movies, and to shoulder any other costs. it's not fun to feel like a sugar mommy or a wallet. it's also no fun when you try to talk to him about your career aspirations and you feel like he is secretly jealous and just wants to drag you down with him. it hurts.

 

or when you ask him what he would like to do in the future and he says...."i want to go work in the sun, maybe construction." and you're like...huh?? the highest he aspires to is construction worker?

 

This is exactly what I was thinking about. I certainly felt like a suger mommy when I was with my ex, as I made a lot more money than he did and I paid more than half time when we went out. He still owes me $400 but he has no intention on returning. Your comment on a construction worker made me laugh! I was actually got hit on by a very hot construction worker few weeks ago in a bar, but he had no clue what PhD was.

 

NeedingSumHelp, thanks for your advice and I read your thread. Using your term, I would be more "untachable" since I am a lot older than you! However, I've met prenty of people who said "wow" when I told them my background and they seemed quite inpressed and showed more interests in me. I've met other type of people who said "oh, you are smart then" and bye bye!

[Orlander]

I don't have a college degree. I was a professional student for a number of years until I figured out I wanted to be a web developer. Now, everyone I work with has at least a 4 year degree. I truly feel they are my peers and I seriously doubt any of them think any less of me because I don't have the degree they have. At least I would hope they dont.

 

I recently met a very attractive woman who has worked in a real estate office for 7 years as an assistant sales person. She has no ambition to go back to school, does not like her job and has no idea what she wants to do with her life (and she's 34). She also said the idea of being a stay at home mom is very attractive to her.

 

I didn't ask her out on a date. Not just because of that though.

 

I look for someone who is motivated to learn, motivated to be more than they are and continually challenges themselves.

 

Having said that, I know two women in particular who I think are equally attractive. One is getting her third masters and the other has worked for a nonprofit company since highschool, has no college degree but devotes her life to helping other people. Both are intelligent but were driven to different goals and both are very successful.

 

Ultimately, its really about how driven and happy the person is. That is so sexy.

 

 

Orlander

[ghost69]

i'm just under a BS degree. am i any less than someone that has one? no. i'm in a great career and make good money. i've been doing it for 7 years. i can get any job before some guy/girl getting out of college witha masters in my field. experience is worth more. a degree is great for starting out. to me it shows you wasted much more money and time than i did.

 

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[Batya33]

I won't date someone without at least a college degree because I only date for the purpose of marriage potential and I want to marry someone who has at least a college degree and values higher education. Like you I am aware that a degree is not necesarily correlated to intelligence, career success or financial success. With respect to the latter, financial stability is important to me but financial success is not - at least where I am from and in connection with my age group you are more likely to be financially stable with a college degree than without. That is another reason I don't date men without college degrees. Since I rarely meet a man who is my religion (I don't date outside my religion) without a college degree, the issue rarely comes up for me but if it did I would agree with your approach.

 

I typically have more in common with men - for purposes of dating - who have college degrees and value higher education. I typically don't have much in common with wealthy men who didn't attend college. I am sure there are exceptions, just haven't met any yet.

 

I don't think less of people who don't have college degrees, and it doesn't affect who I choose as friends, but when looking for a marriage partner who would be compatible with me, at least a college degree is on my "list."

 

I do find it interesting that people are far more accepting of people who insist on a mate with qualities that have to do with looks, weight, even eye color than people like me who prefer to date men with a certain level of education. Although the first is superficial and the second (at least to me, for my reasons) is substantive/internal qualities, the education preference for whatever reason seems to offend people far more than "I prefer to date a thin woman" or "She has to be someone who attracts looks on the street" or "He has to have 6-pack abs and look hot" etc.

[bighair]

Hello Cats -

 

My LTR ended last April and I have been dating on line. I'm an attorney and my ex is too. He and I met at work. I make it very clear in my on line profile that I want to meet someone with a Bachelors degree. I receive emails from men with less than than, ie, an associates and high school diploma. I have many thoughts on this subject because I, like you, have been trying to figure out what matters to me.

 

I briefly dated someone who was a professional ballet dancer and then became a sound engineer when he aged out of professional dancing. He did not finish college. He dropped out to join a dance company. He made a good living...about 90K...Not bad for someone who didn't graduate. He and I didn't work out because he turned out to be a major commitmentphobe.

 

I then exchanged some emails with someone who got a college degree, and recently left his public school teacher job to start his own business. He cancelled dates on me 3 times but the last time he did, he said he had to powerwash someone's deck and couldn't turn down the work. It just bothered me that he needed money that badly...he's 40. Look, I'm not independently wealthy either...i need to work. Ultimately, i told him i wasn't interested in seeing him because of his date cancellations and ambivalence. But, I have to tell you that the fact he's marginally employed bother me.

 

I then briefly dated someone with a BA and lived in a small town in PA and had absolutely no ambition. He's 38 and decided he would retire from his job, live in this conservative, whitebread town forever... I came from an immigrant family...i wasn't born in the U.S. This man never took any interest in learning about my culture. I knew I couldn't have a LTR w. him because of his very narrow outlook on life. He would say things like...."i'm too old now to have a kid...and you're getting up there too...you're too old to do that. (i'm 37)." I knew I coudln't share my life w. someone who was so limited in his thinking.

 

I recently started seeing someone who is a few years older than me and has a graduate degree in engineering. I met him on line and he made it very clear in his profile that Education is important to him and does some volunteer work for education charities. He wanted to meet someone who has an education. I find that we have a lot in common and we share the same ethnicity. Who knows how things will play out.

 

I tell you all of these stories because education is important to me as well. But, I've met some people on line and our relationship failures were caused by a real lack of compatability on some issues like commitment, world views and lifestyle. It really depends on the person...or, the people, I should say. I think you have to figure out if education is something you are willing to compromise on.

 

HOpe this helps.

[Batya33]

For what it's worth I think Bighair's retrospective and perspective is very valuable and insightful. I agree that it comes down to the "musts" on your list. It's also valuable, as Bighair suggested to figure out your specific reasons why a college degree is important to you in a partner - and not because you happen to meet a good guy who doesn't have one - but before that point so that you have a clear idea of why you feel that way and where it is on your list of preferences.

[ghost69]

you want someone accomplished. respectable.

 

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[Batya33]

you want someone accomplished. respectable.

 

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Well - yes, reasonably so so that we are compatible.

[caro33]

I don't have much to add to the already excellent advice here. I'm with Batya and bighair and tend to value tertiary education because it shows a certain drive and a value for learning and bettering oneself. However I don't limit that to just universities, I would include tech colleges and other institutions. It depends more on the type osf degree chosen. For me it would also not be a dealbreaker, but I would want to see a drive and a work ethic.

 

BTW I almost didn't have a tertiary degree: I failed the first time b/c of immaturity and poorly chosen subjects. Several of the smartest and most driven people I know did not do anything after school, for various reasons. And who is to say they wouldn't try later anyway?

 

At the risk of getting some people's backs up here, I just wanted to say that there are degrees and there are degrees. If judging on purely educational terms, I would rather date the person who did an apprenticeship and was an electrician than the person who went to some tinpot institution and obtained a diploma in "nail techology" (ie fingernail painting) or how to read tea leaves. Hmm. Why not just go out into the world and be productive.

 

I would also caution against a desire to only pair up with post-grads. I think that a significant number of post-grad types can be wankers (can I say that here?). I have met some shockers with PhDs - self-important clueless elitists who have convinced themselves for some reason that they are smarter than everyone else. In fact I have met so many of these (maybe half the people in my department) that in dating I would actually discriminate against someone with a PhD unless I saw in them a capacity to embrace diversity and a recognition they weren't the bee's knees. Depends whether its arts or science/eng though. The people who irk me are generally arts (like me). MBA types can be a bit much too.

 

Here endeth the rant .

[bighair]

Caro -

 

Your post cracked me up. The funny thing is that I have a thing about lawyers who are academics and have never really practiced law. You know...they teach law, write about it, but have never been in the trenches. REsearch is very, very important but I do think that some academics don't have enough of a clinical approach to their subject areas. I have also met plenty of PHds and other academic types who are, quite frankly, rather full of themselves and come accross as intellectual snobs. I know someone who met her husband on Match. She's a Phd and only wanted to meet other Phds...in fact, no other grad degree would do. She kept her profile hidden and when she searched, she narrowed the parameters down to men w. Phds. I also have a friend who has a law degree (JD) and is also getting a PHd because she thoought her JD just wasn't academic enough. My friend has never ever represented a client!!!!!

 

I have friends who not date men w. children because of the baggage factor. These men could have a PhD, MD, JD and makes lots of money but they would be eliminated as a dating prospect based on parental status. I don't have a problem with that. I would never not give someone a chance because he was a parent. I think you get to see your future partner in a very important role: as parent. If you're like me, and want a baby, you wanna know that your man is good at it.

 

So,I guess it just comes back to the person, and how people will work together in a relationship and what you're willing to compromise on.

[caro33]

So,I guess it just comes back to the person, and how people will work together in a relationship and what you're willing to compromise on.

 

Completely agree bighair. I think that limiting the population excessively (only PhDs! Jeez!) without allowing for context and the person's other qualities can be really counterproductive if it's a multi-dimensional connection you're after. The real world, and real world experience, counts for a lot.

[Batya33]

I think with the law school thing it depends - from what I have seen of friends who are professors and friends who practice, and those who do a wee bit of both - whether you see law school as more of a vocational school or more of an academic degree. I can see both sides.

[dawn515]

I do not factor degrees into my dating situation too much. I have many friends who have Bachelor's and many in grad school. Like others have said, work ethic is more important to me. At the moment, I am working on my Master's, but I am with someone who has yet to finish his Bachelor's. He even had to take the semester off to work and save money.

 

I could have dismissed him outright because of his lack of a college degree, but then I would have missed out on his humor, his love of literature (we share the same tastes), and his art. Yes, he's an artist. He's also highly intelligent and can keep up with me, most of the time! He's having a hard time right now dealing with an on-the-job injury and gathering the finances to go back to school.

 

I don't care if he goes back to school, as long as he's happy at what he is doing and can pay the rent. He can do whatever he wants. Plus, I've been there -- I dropped out of school when I was 20 to work full-time and cover expenses. It was several years before I was able to go back. I can't judge someone for not having a college degree right off the bat.

[Batya33]

I would never judge someone's worth or goodness or otherwise for not having a college degree but I would decide that they most likely wouldn't make a compatible husband for me. Those are two very different things. We all make judgments - if you want to call it that - when it comes to who we want a serious relationship with - some judgments are based on looks, others on personality, others on manners, values, etc. That's different from judging whether a person is a good or bad person - it's simply whether that person would be good for you in terms of a serious relationship.

 

For example, you decided you wanted someone who has a good work ethic. thereforeeee, you would judge someone who doesn't have a good work ethic as not right for you in the context of a romantic relationship -as you put it, you most likely would "dimiss that person outright" if he told you that working hard (or however you define having a good work ethic) was not important to him in the least. My guess is you wouldn't presume that that person was a "bad person" just by virtue of not having a good work ethic but rather that he was just not right for you. Similarly, I have decided for me that someone who doesn't have at least a college degree most likely would not make a suitable partner for me.

 

I think it's great that you found someone who makes you happy -- good luck!

[longhaircats]

Thanks everyone for your comments. They are very very helpful. Now I have to decide what is the "must" for my future partner. I guess I was not sure because my dad, whom I absorutly love and respect, has no degree due to war, and my sister's boyfriend also has no degree (college drop out, but owns his company), but these two men are wonderful.

 

I met three very attractive men recently and two of them have MA and have great career but the last one has no degree with not so great job. However, I like the last one the most (he is laid back, positive, makes me laugh all the time and I feel very confortable being around him) but I am scared to let myself to fall for someone who is not conpatible in a long run. I guess I will have to wait and see.

 

Thanks again for your comments!

[Batya33]

I wouldn't use your dad as an example because that was a different generation when going to college was not as common and not as essential (for financial stability) as it is now.

 

I am sure your sister's boyfriend is a wonderful person, but that's besides the point - what matters is whether you believe you could be compatible long term with someone who didn't go to college. I suppose you would want to know why - was it lack of ability (based on intelligence, finances, family situation, other factors?), lack of desire, a belief that college isn't necessary, etc.

[CharLit]

I guess it all depends on whether you consider similar levels of education to factor into compatibility or not - that's a very personal choice.

 

For myself, I have an MA, my partner has a school diploma and took a 3-month vocational course in terms of formal education, and that's it. However, he's an effing genius with a computer (digital design, web design, video editing) and with a guitar. As his current obsession, he reads books on quantum physics for fun, we love the same books (not the ones on quantum physics though films, and food (v. important to me as I love cooking & eating + we're both vegetarians) have the same values, politics and twisted sense of humour. We're very proud of each others' knowledge and skills, and they complement one another. He has a stable job that he enjoys and in which he can develop that takes him around the world.

 

He partly supported me financially through the last year of my studies, and now we make about the same amount of money (though of course I have a pesky college debt to pay off, he doesn't). As long as we can get by, we both find doing what we love WAY more important than the money we make. He doesn't have any expertise in my field of work aside from what I tell him, but he is an extremely structured and logical thinker and thereforeeee my most important proof reader: he can put things together in a way that actually makes sense to the rest of the world He can also totally hold his own in a debate, which is good, because I love debating the state of the world and humanity

 

This guy is just utterly, utterly perfect for me. I love his passion, his integrity, his humour, and his ability to become obsessed with things and not stop until he's learned everything there is to know about them. He would be so completely out of place and unhappy in a formal tertiary education setting, yet i daresay he probably has a great deal more in-depth knowledge about a far wider range of topics than many academics. (I know there are plenty of academics who DO have a fascination for a very broad range of things, but there are also plenty who got a degree to get a job and are satisfied with not ever looking outside of their own field. That's fine, but not what I'm looking for in a partner)

 

We've been together for over four years btw, so this is not me gushing in the throes of infatuation.

 

All that said, my previous LTR was also with someone with less formal education than myself, and though we were compatible in many other ways, he always felt threatened by my education/knowledge and experienced disagreement on any abstract topic as me putting him down, rather than us having a debate. That was down to his own insecurity, and one of the reasons (though not the main one) that we broke up up in the end. The incompatibility was not in the different levels in education, but far more in his not seeing his own talents (artistic... i guess i go for the creative type! and expertise in other areas as equally valid as mine... either that or he thought I didn't think they were equally valid and looked down on him.

 

As for the "sugar mommies" - the men you encountered are what I would term spongers, and you find them in both sexes and accross all levels of education. Just last week I bumped into a trained psychologist I vaguely know in a bar who had run out of money for the month (even though he has a good job) and had gone out anyway assuming people would buy him drinks. They did, and he's quite a nice guy in many other ways, but he was definitely sponging!

[dawn515]

Batya,

 

I am sure you would never judge someone's worth or goodness based on a college degree, and I never meant to imply otherwise.

 

I said I wanted someone with "good work ethic" in the way that they wouldn't sit about, with no job, and not helping me out with rent. (I live in a very expensive city.) It really doesn't matter to me what he does, as long as it's above board and he can pay his half of the expenses. At this point in my life, having never been married, I've become very independent and want to remain so. I don't want to be dependent on someone else or their income.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with having certain standards, such as your requirement for a college degree. It's just that I used to think like that (even when I didn't have one yet!), and I think I could have missed out on quite a few guys if I stuck to that. The last guy I was serious with didn't have a college degree, but he was very intelligent and rose through the ranks at his company to a management job, and he is now making more than 200k a year. (We parted amicably.) The man I'm currently with is also quite intelligent, and is working his way through college, but he tends to the more creative arts. (My aforementioned ex was in the computer field.)

 

But, I like his art and his creativity, and he thinks I'm the smartest woman he's ever met. (Yay for me!) And *I* haven't even finished school yet!

 

I'm just wondering if you would make exceptions to the college degree requirement in certain circumstances? Not judging.. just curious.

[Batya33]

When I was in my 20s I did - if he was still going to college that was typically fine (typically because it depended on "why") - but I am 40 now and yes, if I were unattached and met someone who hadn't finished college and their reasons made sense to me as far as compatibility with me as a partner then sure perhaps.

 

In 1994 I dated a man twice who was in his 30s and who had not yet finished college. His lack of a college education had nothing to do with why we didn't continue dating. Until 2005 (when I started dating my current boyfriend), I don't think I ever met a man who was my religion (I don't date outside my religion) who hadn't finished college and was interested in dating me. I can't even remember meeting men of my religion and in my general age group (30s-40s) who hadn't finished college (and the college conversation usually comes up pretty early on or their profession reflects at least a college degree).

 

The only exception was when I did on line dating - I received several e-mails from men who hadn't finished college and were my religion. If I was otherwise interested I would respond with an email asking why they had not chosen to go to or finish college (my profile indicated I was looking for at least a college grad so I think it was a fair question since they contacted me). The reasons given were not compatible with my goals or values - a typical response (again there were not many of these people to begin with) was because it made more sense to them to make money than to get an education. That didn't work for me as far as compatible values.

 

Other responses were basically "I always wanted to but never got around to it." Also didn't work for me. And then there were a few who wrote to me claiming to have a degree - college or masters but then admitting that they lied. Lies don't work for me.

 

If a friend wanted to introduce me to a great guy who didn't have a college degree and the reasons were those that made sense to me (I don't know - he is an artist who was trained in his vocation but not in a college setting - although most of the artists I know of my religion did go to college at least -- or perhaps there could have been some kind of ongoing family emergency and he intended on going to college later in life, etc) - I can't really think of other such reasons but sure there could be.

 

So the short answer is - yes, I would listen but for all practical purposes in the last 17 years I only met two guys who were interested in dating me, my religion and who had not yet finished college. (the first one was working his tail off to finish, at age 30 and that was impressive -going at night, etc).