It's all crap, all of it...

[Trolloc63]

Here I am again, with yet another depressing post that you can flame me for later. So here we go:

 

I've had yet another epiphany in my many dealings with women. As you may remember, I'm in nursing school and work as a nursing assistant with mostly women. So learing about how women act and what they say and do is still tough sometimes. Basically I've so far learned that what women do and what they say are completely different. I've observed several women who flirt with me (eg. lots o' smiling, eye contact, touching) even though they are not interested or are taken. Which just pisses me off even more.

 

You may remember I tried to ask a gal out to the movies on one occasion. Well working with her every week is just painful. Seeing as how i'm very much attracted to her, yet she still flirts with me, but then pulls her hot-cold routine and wants nothing to do with me. When dealing with these types of women, I tend to shut down and ignore them completely, no matter how much it kills me inside.

 

Anyway, back to my epiphany. So at class, and somehow we get to discuss in a group about my pathetic non-love life. And I do my usual go off on a tangent, you know, the "i'm gonna be single forever" tangent. Anyway one of the gals is a single mom, and I could tell she was sorta interested, or so I think. So she says we'll have to hang out with her and her friends sometime. I tell her i'm down with that, and that's the end of the conversation.

 

You see this is the problem, and it keeps happening. Women will "suggest" things like this and then never follow through. I dont know whether they just enjoy playing with me or not. Ok so she made the suggestion, and I said "ok" to it. Now why the hell do they not follow through?? She knew I was ok with it, but she said nothing. Is'nt that nice, she already knows I'm not good at this stuff because I was going off on my tangent earlier, yet no details, no "lets do this on this day".

 

No, instead she just leaves me hanging, cause i'm the guy, and I have to magically pick up on everything, and have to do everything because i'm perfect. Well i'm not perfect, in fact i'm so pathetic that its just sad.

 

I have never been comfortable with meeting women, and I never will be, and no matter how much flaming i'm gonna get from this, i'm sure i'll never change. So I guess the epiphany is this: even if women know that you want to hang out with them, and that you are available, you still have to do everything. Could my life suck anymore than it does right now. I sometimes wish I was a women so I did'nt have to do anything to attract the opposite sex.

 

 

[Dako]

It's not you, it's them. They encourage you, and expect you to make conversation and develop a friendship and all that tiresome crap.

You'd be happier if all this getting acquainted stuff could be skipped.

 

Maybe it's not them.

You don't have to do everything, just do something other than blame women.

They probably see your attitude from miles away.

[Batya33]

I know of many people who are big fans of "let's get together some time" and never follow through - I don't waste my time trying to make plans with them after the first time. All this woman said was that you all should hang out sometime - that is not making a specific plan - it's purposely vague so that she doesn't have to follow through if she changes her mind. Not a woman thing - she's just the type of person who is not into making plans in advance.

 

When I was in the dating scene typically the way it worked was - the man called me and asked me out for a specific time and place- if I was interested, I would say yes with appreciation and enthusiasm, and we would either confirm plans right then or decide to talk the day of to confirm. That's all. If i wasn't interested I might say no, or say that I was busy and would call him if I ever had time - anything to signal "don't call me, I'll call you."

 

I am sorry you have had bad experiences with women. You are not obligated to date, have relationships or marry - all of that takes work, effort, patience and a thick skin. For me it was worth it even with the unpleasant/bad dates, the rejection and the disappointment. I did not generalize from those bad experiences that "all men" were a certain way because I would not want people to generalize about me.

 

Your way is far safer - extrapolate from the experiences you've had that "they" are "all" one way and thereforeeee you don't have to put yourself out there and instead can have this pity party/play the victim. It's also a bit lonely after awhile if you do want love and another person in your life in a meaningful way. but, it's up to you to do the balancing of what is worth it to you.

[Trolloc63]

that was really nice of u to trash me like that, there will always be one like you around to talk some smack, so thanks.....

[Batya33]

No - actually I wasn't trashing you - I was respecting your decision not to date and noting that it is a way to stay safe and in the comfort zone. It also can get lonely - that is a disadvantage, just like being in a relationship has disadvantages - you cannot date others, for example, you have to think about another person other than yourself when planning things like a vacation, etc. To some those tradeoffs are worth it, to some, not.

 

Your response however confirms for me that you are determined to stay in your negative mind set. Sometimes staying negative is far more comfortable because it is familiar, while having a positive mindset seems uncomfortable because it means you risk disappointment. It's up to you, and if you choose to see my post as "trashing" that is your choice (not quite sure what "smack" means - generational issue I guess) - and I completely disagree that it was anything but respectful and realistic.

[lifestream]

Why not you take her up on the offer? There's no harm in you taking charge, calling her and saying, listen, I'm free this weekend lets hang out.

 

She says no? Say alright, well it's up to her now.

[Trolloc63]

I'm not so sure I can take her up on it, next time I saw her in class she said nothing to me about it. And according to batya, i'm just a complete loser.

 

Well its actually quite true, I am a loser.

 

I have been single for abouts 8 years now, and have only been in 2 relationships because I was asked out. I have grown bitter and angry over that period of time, and a part of this stems from issues when I was younger.

 

But anyway, now i'm just indifferent about dating, until I get super depressed. I can talk and make conversation and all, but when it gets to the grey area, i'm lost, and too scared to say anything.

 

Furthermore I do my best to completely sabotage myself. And your right, it is very safe, but it sucks. I dont have the answer, sometimes I'm in a good mood and very playful with co-workers/classmates, other times i'm super depressed and dont talk to anyone; whatever that makes me, i dont know.

 

So there's my head on a platter, time for more flaming...

 

Oh yeah, "talking smack" (aka trash talking)

[Batya33]

Please do not twist my words. I never said you were a loser - I was commenting on your behavior and your choices and if you choose to interpret that as me saying you are a "loser" that is your choice but it is nowhere in my post, even implied.

 

You are right that if you choose to be bitter and angry it is going to be difficult for you to have meaningful friendships, let alone romantic relationships. You can choose to do the work to stop being so bitter and angry, or you can choose to stay bitter and angry. If you choose to do the work you risk leaving your comfort zone because feeling hopeful and positive, while nice feelings to have, also leave you vulnerable to disappointment. Choosing to stay bitter and angry is safer in that way.

[Dako]

T,

Look at yourself, man. You just had a smart woman give you good advice, but you don't want it. What do you really want?

[Leon]

I 100% agree with you topic creator, a lot women today pull stuff like this. And then come up with some lame reasoning to justify it. I'm tired of it, STOP the excuses, and show some respect, that's all decent, honest, troubled males ask for. I tried to arrange something last fall with a girl (who is single AND asked ME to do something with her). I took most of the responsibility to arrange the who, what, and when. Geuss what? After an afternoon of the girl flaking out on me left and right... I called it quits. Ugh... I'm tired of this... I'm not babying people, I'm tired of doing the most work... But yeah, just make yourself busy and excel at your gifts, it'll make you busy AND feel good about yourself with no need for companionship.

[galaxy71]

I find it offensive when women reject guys by using excuses. If you don't like a guy, don't lead him on by telling him you are busy and that you will call him. That type of passive rejection gives guys false hope and makes guys extremely bitter. This is what guys deal with all the time. Even guys who are good with women complain about how girls flake out on them. This takes the fun out of dating.

 

I also have to agree with the OP, that the advice you gave was pretty harsh. Instead of like telling him alternatives for his behavior, you harshly criticized him. Why should he take your advice when you are condemning him for his post?

 

 

 

If I was the OP, I would be more interested in defending myself rather than taking your advice. It's all stick but no carrot. Guys like him usually respond better when you present him with alternatives on how to interact with women rather than when you condemn the poor guy. The only alternatives you offered were "patience, effort, and a thick skin". Women act rude toward good guys like the OP when they flake out on them with excuses about how busy they are. Yet when these nice guys complain about women, the women condemn them.

 

To the OP: You need to learn how to attract women. There are plenty of websites and resources that teaches guys how to attract women through their appearance, personality, and social skills One of the best ways to attract a girl is through flirting. Flirting doesn't have to be compliments. Instead, you can be flirtatious by being fun and playful. Being just friendly doesn't work, since girls act friendly all the time toward people they have no interest in dating. You should model yourself after guys who are successful with women. I mentioned some good websites in that bar thread that is located in the "Dating and Shy People" folder.

 

Being friendly does not work. It's about being that engaging guy that the girl can't get enough of. Do you have hobbies or interests that you are passionate about? That is something that you can talk about with girls. Don't be discouraged. There are plenty of frustrated guys who learned to be successful with women, because they learned from guys who are good with women.

[licorice_allsort]

Not all women are like her, you know. A lot of us actually are honest and direct and don't play games.

You say it's easy for us to attract men, maybe, yes. Easy for us to attract decent, respectable men? Hell, no. Especially if the woman is attractive, big-breasted and blonde. (Myself, being a brunette, and redheaded women have issues with this too but from my knowledge, blondes have it worse). Two of my close friends fit that description and they find it difficult for men to take them seriously. A lot of men think these 'sexy blondes with * * * *' are just airheads wanting some fun with a bloke. No-one wants to have a deep and meaningful conversation with them because people assume they're not intelligent (one teaches music at university and is also a violinist in the city's Symphony Orchestra; and the other is a dentist, just for the record.) Very smart, cultured, respectable ladies. Gorgeous looking, too. But ask them how many good, decent men have approached them in the past six months and they'll tell you, it hasn't been many at all! Half of them have been horny sleazebags just wanting a quick shag, and other times they've been old enough to be our father with a wife and kids waiting at home (sometimes they don't even bother to hide their wedding ring or the photo of their child in their wallet). Don't get me wrong, there have been a couple of decent fellows among that lot, but the b***s*** these ladies have had to put up with to meet these decent guys is, well, it's really quite unfair. But by all means, you said sometimes you wished you were a woman, come and swap lives with one of these ladies for a weekend and see how difficult it can be.

[Leon]

Heh... I remember when in highschool in class I overheard, these girls complaining about all the good men being taken while they had the left-overs. I laughed. It's kind of sad, if they only they used the time they were complaining to go LOOK. Stop expecting them to fall infront of you. That's not how life works at all...

Kinda funny thing... I met up with an old buddy and he told me that his GF was looking for someone to hook up with her friend and that I was desperately in need of this opportunity. Well we meet his GF and she actually chose my friend who shows no interest in relationships and being tied down and is extremely picky. Our taste are very different I met more requirments than him. Both my friends asked her why did she not choose me... She had no reason she had no answer... It's like there is something horribly wrong with me... I'm starting think I'm not the problem after all...

[Ross Midnight]

If I may, sir:

 

I have no experience in dating or initiating courtship with women. However, I do have a somewhat formidible bit of personal experience with social anxiety and experiencing the same sensations you've captured here (if not similar circumstances).

 

I would like to invite you to take a step back and avoid defensiveness for a moment, if you would:

 

- You recount women (whom you yourself may or may not have been interested in) becoming, for lack of a more formal word, flirtatious with you (physical contact, eye contact, smiling, presumably some verbal interaction), even though they weren't interested in you. But how do you know they weren't interested? The way you describe the situation would suggest otherwise. Did they (either directly or indirectly) let you know this somehow, or is it something you yourself have just assumed? If it is just an assumption, or even what you would define as an educated hypothesis, how did you arrive at it? Explain the answer to this question to yourself in detail (and if you want, share it).

 

- The single mother who was expressing interest in you - how did you arrive at the conclusion that she simply knows that you yourself aren't good at contributing to setting-up a date? Are you certain she was really reading into your personal story, or could it be that she was merely listening to it? Again, ask yourself how it is that you arrived at the conclusion she is likely just trying to play with you. Breakdown and explain that conclusion to yourself.

 

In my own personal experience, I've found that after simply taking a step back and breaking down my conclusions and assumptions into their components they lose their plausibility and (consequently) tangibility. Your own mileage may vary, of course.

 

As far as your frustration and anger is concerned, I know where you're coming from in terms of having to live with it. I myself deflate and defeat it when it really crops-up by considering why it is I'm so mad. Typically, it's emotion I've built-up entirely on my own with a few powerful, but unfounded, inferences and speculations. While there are definitely manipulative and dangerous persons in the world, they're the exception rather than the rule; most people are not out to intentionally hurt or enrage you.

 

Try to avoid words like 'pathetic' when dealing with yourself - it's vague, unuseful and likely inaccurate. Use terms that are more precise (even if they may be negative); for example, you sound rather angry and depressed. What, specifically, is conjuring these feelings? Explore the answer, break it down. If these feelings aren't something you feel is a positive influence, what could you do alleviate them?

 

I apologize that I cannot lend a helping hand when it comes to approaching and dating women, I just hope my advice is useful to some degree as regards gradually overcoming your feelings of bitterness and hopelessness. Perhaps you can use this as a stepping stone to reaching your goal.

[Batya33]

Galaxy: "I find it offensive when women reject guys by using excuses. If you don't like a guy, don't lead him on by telling him you are busy and that you will call him. That type of passive rejection gives guys false hope and makes guys extremely bitter. This is what guys deal with all the time. Even guys who are good with women complain about how girls flake out on them. This takes the fun out of dating.

 

I also have to agree with the OP, that the advice you gave was pretty harsh. Instead of like telling him alternatives for his behavior, you harshly criticized him. Why should he take your advice when you are condemning him for his post?"

 

For my dating lifetime - and among the people I know/have known, we all understand that the "don't call me, I'll call you" means "not interested." It's an easier way of letting someone down and, frankly, I don't want a confrontation with someone I have just met, so if there is a way to finesse it, I will. I've never been able to say to someone's face "no, I do not want to go out with you again." I have said to someone who asked for my phone number "sorry, I have a boyfriend" (which sometimes was a lie, most of the time was true). That is how I deal with awkward situations - probably not the best way, but there you have it.

 

As far as the advice I gave to the OP, I stand by it.

[galaxy71]

Batya, you didn't even bother to offer any logic to your reply at all. A lot of girls I knew rejected me politely without having to be confrontational about it all. I can't believe you disrepect people like that by giving excuses that might be plausible. It's just as bad as girls who act rude when they reject a guy by not returning his phone call and by not showing up for a date. This is how good guys become bitter. They are told to just be themselves. Yet when they ask a girl out, girls blow them off and disrespect them. It's obvious that you never knew what it was like to be frustrated like the OP.

 

You also don't seem to care about the fact that you were too harsh toward the OP at all. What alternatives do you have to offer him??? Instead of telling himself how to correct his behavior, you seemed more interested in chewing him out because he called out the rude behavior of many of your fellow females. Learn to treat people with respect. Don't judge him. You never been in his shoes. Guys like him don't have the luxury of having people approach him since he's a guy. There are times when I get frustrated when I see people reject good advice. Yet I don't condemn them because I know what is like to be depressed and hopeless. The OP might suffer from clinical depression or social phobia for all we know.

 

A lot of frustrated guys feel like they have only two paths now. They either become bitter or they become a player. It's the choice that nice guys choose all the time because women refuse to accept them for who they are all. A lot of players or Don Juans even admit that they became womanizers because they got frustrated with the fact that women rejected their initial nice guy selves. I still believe it is false dichotomy. Yet when women reject and comdemn guys without telling guys how to improve themselves, they feel like they have only two paths to follow-become bitter or become a player. I hope that frustrated guys are told that they can improve themselves without having to become a jerk.

[bulletproof]

I think it's a big mistake to define behaviors like this as specifically male or female. While there are certainly inherent differences in how men and women communicate, I don't feel that this is one of those cases. In my own life, I am currently very interested in a man I work with. He has suggested casually several times that he would come by and see me at my part-time job (I work in a bar part-time), and various other outings, and has never followed through seriously. But I'm not angry and bitter about it, because being angry and bitter about it isn't going to get me anywhere. I just set my sights somewhere else for now.

 

As a female, I've often found myself wishing that it was more socially acceptable for me to do the approaching. It's not easy to sit and wait for something to happen- it makes me feel like I don't have control over my own life. So, for the first time last night, I made a move. I approached another guy I'm interested in and gave him my number. Does it put me in an extremely vulnerable position? Yup, but life is not worth living without risk. I can get rejected a thousand times, but it may all be worth it if the 1001st time works out.

 

It sounds like you fear rejection to the point that it's affecting your life. You say you're tired of doing all the work, but nothing in life worth having comes easy. Wouldn't the work be worth it in the end?

 

Also, as a side note- would you want to date someone who is often heard saying, "I'm going to be single forever"? I know I wouldn't. Take the advice here without getting defensive. People are telling you some really valid things.

[Batya33]

I believe I gave several constructive suggestions in my posts and need not repeat them here or prove anything to you - please see my earlier posts and let's agree to disagree on whether I gave good advice and constructive suggestions. Of course, thanks for sharing - I hope venting and personally attacking me made you feel better.

 

As to why I don't always say "no thanks" to a man who asks me out again: When I believe a man might get angry with me for rejecting him - such as when I have had on line dates in person where the guy seems unstable in person I do not want to have a confrontation and I politely say either "I have to think about it" or "let's leave it that I will call you, ok?" Once when I decided to be up front, the man thanked me and then sent me a string of harassing e-mails - I believe there were 5 in one hour, berating me for somehow "leading him on" to believe there would be a third date. The 6th e-mail begged for my forgiveness and asked if we could stay in touch as friends. Another time, I said to the man "I'm sorry but I don't think we're a match." What followed were 5 phone calls in 30 minutes (while I was on an important business call), 6 harassing e-mails, etc.

 

So, if I sense that the man is going to react that way I find a way to convey the message indirectly so as not to provoke that sort of reaction. Safety is a big issue for women. Or, after a first date, if the man calls and I am not interested, I do not call back. Same way I've been treated by men who are not interested in dating me again - silence. Silence is fine with me at that early stage and I believe it is perfectly acceptable not to return a man's call if he is calling to ask for a second date and you are not interested. Indeed, I find it arrogant to call the man and say "I am returning your call to tell you I am not interested." Silence lets both people keep their dignity at that early stage.

 

And, no luxury for me - I have asked men out, I have been rejected by men who asked me out - so I have certainly been in a "man's" shoes when it comes to asking out, etc. I wasn't happy to be rejected but it didn't make me negative or bitter.

 

It sounds like you have had some negative experiences with women - I am sorry to hear that but berating me is not the appropriate response, in my humble opinion. Fortunately, I have had very few negative experiences with men, and when I have I have not generalized - well maybe for about an hour, on the phone to a girlfriend - about "all men." I believe that the reason I have been treated so well and with respect is because I treat men (both the men I date, the men I am friendly with, the men I work with, etc.) well and with respect. I have been told this many times and it is a good feeling. I hope that your experiences with women improve soon. Have a great day!

[CluelessGuy321]

I 100% agree with you topic creator, a lot women today pull stuff like this. And then come up with some lame reasoning to justify it. I'm tired of it, STOP the excuses, and show some respect, that's all decent, honest, troubled males ask for. I tried to arrange something last fall with a girl (who is single AND asked ME to do something with her). I took most of the responsibility to arrange the who, what, and when. Geuss what? After an afternoon of the girl flaking out on me left and right... I called it quits. Ugh... I'm tired of this... I'm not babying people, I'm tired of doing the most work... But yeah, just make yourself busy and excel at your gifts, it'll make you busy AND feel good about yourself with no need for companionship.

 

Yeah, I agree. I think the guys who have the least amount of trouble are the ones who are jerky and don't take women too seriously, date many at a time, or are abjectly good looking.

And not to say that confident guys are always jerks, but there are a few. A lot of shy guys who happen to land a girlfriend or date can be equally rude or ill-mannered, so that doesn't change the equation either.

 

I know the concerns of most guys here though - hating the feeling of being odd man out, when other lucky jerks seem to have all the luck. And women, I think, have concerns of meeting predators and obssesive stalker types.

 

That all being said, it just sucks when one party agrees to meet up but then stands you up or cancels. It'd be better to just reject a person on the spot instead of toying around. Waste of everyone's time.

[Batya33]

Just to make clear - I would never stand someone up on a date - never have - and I would cancel only if in the meanwhile I got serious with someone else and things changed. When I have told a man "I am busy that night -- I'll be in touch if I can make plans" - that is not toying with him - it is telling him - please don't contact me again, I will contact you if I am interested. Or, if a man calls me to ask me out for a second date and I don't call back, he is free to make other plans of course - I have not cancelled on him or led him to believe that I will see him that night.

 

On the other hand I have been stood up once and cancelled on a number of times with lame excuses. It's part of life if you want to be in the dating scene.

 

And, I don't think jerks are confident - if they were confident they likely would not choose to behave like jerks. They simply have the facade of confidence/cockiness/arrogance but deep down they are insecure.

[galaxy71]

You still don't get it. I agree with you that there are some circumstances that blowing someone off can be very appropriate at times. First, you mention the safety issue. Then you think it's o.k. to blow someone off even if that guy is not a safety issue at all. I know nice women who blow off guys who are looking for a first date, but who thinks it wrong to blow off a guy after you spendt time with him on a date. It's one thing to blow off some random stranger who sent you an email, it's another to not even acknowledge someone you spent some time with to know that you feel safe around him.

 

There is no dignity in silence that you speak of. I have read nice guys, nerds, confident guys, and casanovas complaining about how disappointed they were when someone who seemed to enjoy their time and presense cut off all contact for no explicable reason. Most of these guys hate the indirect rejection because it gives false hope. Instead of moving on to the next girl, these guys have false hope thinking that the girl is busy and she will call him when she has the time. While these guys have false hope, girls like you are hoping that he gets the hint that she is not interested. We feel like crap when the person we like so much won't even acknowledge us as a person with a simple "No, thanks". It's a nice feeling when you see someone you thought was a friend talking to her friends after she has blown off a couple of mesages.

 

"It sounds like you have had some negative experiences with women - I am sorry to hear that but berating me is not the appropriate response, in my humble opinion. Fortunately, I have had very few negative experiences with men, and when I have I have not generalized - well maybe for about an hour, on the phone to a girlfriend - about "all men." I believe that the reason I have been treated so well and with respect is because I treat men (both the men I date, the men I am friendly with, the men I work with, etc.) well and with respect. I have been told this many times and it is a good feeling. I hope that your experiences with women improve soon. Have a great day!"

 

I summarize this paragraph in a few sentences. Don't judge me because I flake out on a guys who are nice and safe. Since I'm a good person, people should excuse my behavior. You're right I shouldn't be upset by your post. You are doing these guys a favor when you reject them. I mean why would a guy with self-respect and dignity want to date a girl who flakes out on good guys all the time?

[Dako]

I've always taken, "I'm busy that week...maybe some other time...I'll call you" lines as the polite way of saying "No way!!!" Some boneheads don't get it.

 

Some women are happy to go the other route, and sneer or laugh while turning you down. Some guys must love abuse.

 

A woman doesn't owe anything to a guy who asks her out except civility.

[lifestream]

"I am busy that night -- I'll be in touch if I can make plans"

 

This doesn't mean "I'll call you if I'm interested." This means exactly what is written. The problem with this is it's MUCH more beneficial for the guy to see it at face value, it's the best outcome. At face value it means "I am busy on ONE particular evening. I'll call you back when I'm NOT busy" And by no means is one person busy all the time. Why would a guy look at the worst possible outcome with a girl he's into? Why would he have any reason to believe that she's sending a hidden message?

 

Guys, in my experience, are you usually very literary. Unless you say "Not Interested" I doubt he'll get the hint. He'll get the hint only after he's been broken in.

[Batya33]

Did you mean "literary" or "literate?" I am talking about men in their 30s and up - I agree with Dako.

 

When a person is sincerely interested in making plans she or he makes plans - she or he says "I am busy that night but what about ___ day" or at minimum "I am busy that night but I will call you by [x day] when I have had a chance to check my calendar."

[Batya33]

I've never flaked out on any guy. I use the understood language/communication (apparently not understood by you - well, there are always exceptions I suppose) of disinterest or mediocre interest. Most people I know get the message loud and clear if the response is less than enthusiastic. I know I do. As far as "good guys" - if they are not "good" for me as far as a match it would be wrong to say yes when I know it's not going to work out. I've had much success in the dating scene - and the vast majority of these men are men of character and dignity - and don't have a negative mindset as you seem to have, based on your posts.