shy when flirting - maybe I'm sending mixed signals...

[No Spaces Rob]

Hi,

 

I'm a 26 year old guy with very little experience with girls. There is a new girl I've met, who is a little younger than me, and more more outgoing than me.

 

I can't help thinking that because of her personality she is so different to me - how could we possibly get along? But we seem to. What's more, I'm sure she is not the type of girl that my friends would expect me to go for.

 

But I still think of her quite a bit.

 

I had lunch with her last friday and we got along well. She did lots of talking about herself. She's extremely talkative. I asked her a few things about herself and she seemed quite content to talk about herself, though she didn't really ask as much about me. No doubt she loved the opportunity to talk, and loved the attention, but her interest in me wasn't really seen.

 

No doubt, because I'm so nervous around her, I'm giving her mixed messages. For example there have been quite a few opportunities for her to 'accidentally' brush past me because she leans over me for something or other. I'm nervous about this type of touching and sometimes I pull away a bit. There's nothing I want more than to touch her. But I am self conscious and don't want to be perceived as a pervert who would enjoy rubbing up against her. So I shrink back a bit. A couple of times she has put a hand on my back when talking to me. And she smiles well when our eyes meet and she makes silly jokes when I'm around (and doesn't seem to do that with other guys). I have been working on the eye contact thing. I know most shy guys can't do eye contact and I am feeling a lot more confident with this now. And smiling.

 

I don't really want to be giving out mixed signals. My last relationship was a disaster - I fell deeply for a girl and got my heart broken. But with this girl, I don't have that huge emotional connection. She is more of a fun person to be around, and I like how I feel when around her. Still, my mind is still a little bit hesitant to get too involved with her because I'm telling myself she probably isn't right for me, but perhaps also because I am just scared.

 

Perhaps she is already cooling off on me, maybe I am already too slow and hesitant for her.

 

I think this girl is fun and would love to spend more time with her. I am also attracted to her physically.

 

Lunch on friday was enjoyable but was kind of just a friend thing... I want to ask her out. However, I've never had much success with that.

[vermilion]

Maybe you should try initiating contact? Show you're interested? That way you're less likely to be seen as just a friend.

 

And don't worry, she won't see you as a pervert.

 

Maybe you should even try kissing her your next date?

 

And the emotional connection usually comes later anyway, it's good that you don't have strong feelings for her yet.

 

She sounds a little self-centered, not asking about you at all. I guess people really do love talking about themselves. But it makes it easier if you're shy.

 

Keep up the eye contact and try to forget your last relationship- this is a new girl it's not fair to her to compare!

Good luck!

[No Spaces Rob]

The lunch wasn't a date - it was more of a 'do you want to grab lunch together?'

 

Which may mean that I have sent her the message that I want to be her lunch buddy, instead of the 'date' message. I am comfortable with the chatting and eating lunch, but less comfortable with the dating part of things and I'm worried that my hesitance to move forward in the dating part of things is inadvertently giving her the 'friend only' message when that really isn't my desire.

 

Of course I know the answer is to just ask her out, making it clearly date-like. And even though I know what to do, I know the only reason I'm coming on here and asking about this is because I am just stalling What good is it for me to become so worried about not asking her on a date for so long, that I become too scared to ask her on a date?

 

There are just too many excuses for shy men not to ask someone out, and they are all procrastination. It just seems so much easier to be friendly and hope she'll bust a move.

 

Hmmmm, she likes a drink. So do I. She likes movies. So do I. She brought these topics up. Hmm, just thinking out loud...

[Honey Pumpkin]

Ask her out for a drink. You've already gone for lunch together, so you know she likes you. Go for a drink after work, see how it goes, make plans there to do something else together. Go for a kiss at the end of the evening. Stop over-analysing it! You like her, she seems to like you, don't fret about the long-term just yet, ask her out for a drink!!

 

She will say yes, you will have fun, and what's more you'll feel incredibly good about yourself - nothing like having been brave to really lift the spirits!

 

Good luck

[charley]

I think it goes without saying that shy people send mixed signals, or no detectable signals at all. So yes, you probably do that.

 

Mixed signals attract some women because they are intrigued by it, but most find it confusing, and then eventually aggravating, or nerve wracking, or infuriating, or insulting. I'm speaking from experience here as a formerly shy guy who has been accused of being a male tease before. I didn't do that on purpose, but the results were sometimes very negative.

 

Once her patience or confidence is sufficiently eroded by your mixed signals, she will give up and turn cold, or give up and turn angry.

 

Perhaps some direct honesty from you would be your best course of action. Tell her, "I like you, but I'm shy." Then once she understands and knows that you do like her for sure, then your mixed signals won't be hurting her confidence anymore. Also, then she'll be more understanding of your shyness and help you work through it.

 

I'll leave it to others to help you work out your solutions. Good luck.

[pianoguy]

nah- don't make any declarations just yet. Take honey pumpkin's advice- just ask her out for a drink. It'll be fun, and the worst that can happen is that she can say no.

[No Spaces Rob]

I think part of my problem is that I never think it is the 'perfect time' to ask. I even met her at lunch yesterday and had a good chat but didn't get 'around to' asking (even though I wanted to the whole time). I chickened out. I assumed that it wasn't the perfect time, or some rubbish like that. Or that it would be too much of a change in conversation topic. Or that I would come off as creepy.

 

How infuriating! How do I solve it

[Dating Coach]

I can't help thinking that because of her personality she is so different to me - how could we possibly get along? But we seem to. What's more, I'm sure she is not the type of girl that my friends would expect me to go for.

 

It's easy to "get along" with girls. To get girls attracted to you is something completley different.

 

But I still think of her quite a bit.

 

You are already moving way too fast, you like her way too much. If you haven't even asked her out yet and already you are thinking about her quite a bit... you're setting yourself up for heartache. You need to get a hold of your emotions and control yourself better. If you start to like a girl like this then you need to get on the ball ASAP, not only to get her answer and represent yourself better, but to cut off as much hurt as possible.

 

I had lunch with her last friday and we got along well. She did lots of talking about herself. She's extremely talkative. I asked her a few things about herself and she seemed quite content to talk about herself, though she didn't really ask as much about me. No doubt she loved the opportunity to talk, and loved the attention, but her interest in me wasn't really seen.

 

If this wasn't a clear "date" then it was eating lunch "as friends" and that's not a good foot to start off on. Hopefully you asked her out on a lunch date.

 

No doubt, because I'm so nervous around her, I'm giving her mixed messages. For example there have been quite a few opportunities for her to 'accidentally' brush past me because she leans over me for something or other. I'm nervous about this type of touching and sometimes I pull away a bit.

 

Tease her about it, playfully. Say, "Look, I know girls have a hard time resisting getting so close to me, but this is borderline harassment!"

 

There's nothing I want more than to touch her. But I am self conscious and don't want to be perceived as a pervert who would enjoy rubbing up against her. So I shrink back a bit.

 

Not good. Don't shrink back, tease and flirt!

 

A couple of times she has put a hand on my back when talking to me. And she smiles well when our eyes meet and she makes silly jokes when I'm around (and doesn't seem to do that with other guys).

 

Doesn't mean anything.

 

I have been working on the eye contact thing. I know most shy guys can't do eye contact and I am feeling a lot more confident with this now. And smiling.

 

Good job!

 

I don't really want to be giving out mixed signals. My last relationship was a disaster - I fell deeply for a girl and got my heart broken. But with this girl, I don't have that huge emotional connection.

 

You're on your way to that again though. You said it yourself, you find yourself thinking about her a LOT. If you don't do something soon to find out her answer then you could be feeling the same heart break. DON'T DO THIS TO YOURSELF!!! YOU have control over this, don't let fear deter you!

 

She is more of a fun person to be around, and I like how I feel when around her. Still, my mind is still a little bit hesitant to get too involved with her because I'm telling myself she probably isn't right for me, but perhaps also because I am just scared.

 

It is because you are scared. You are giving yourself excuses to avoid confronting your fear. If you break this habit, even the first time, you will feel better about yourself.

 

Perhaps she is already cooling off on me, maybe I am already too slow and hesitant for her.

 

This could be very likely. More reason to act now.

 

I think this girl is fun and would love to spend more time with her. I am also attracted to her physically.

 

Lunch on friday was enjoyable but was kind of just a friend thing... I want to ask her out. However, I've never had much success with that.

 

Probably because you do the same thing everytime. You take your time. Instead, overcome the fear and do something NOW. Ask her out on a date for Tuesday. Have plans in mind. Good luck bro.

[Dating Coach]

I think part of my problem is that I never think it is the 'perfect time' to ask. I even met her at lunch yesterday and had a good chat but didn't get 'around to' asking (even though I wanted to the whole time). I chickened out. I assumed that it wasn't the perfect time, or some rubbish like that. Or that it would be too much of a change in conversation topic. Or that I would come off as creepy.

 

How infuriating! How do I solve it

 

There is no perfect time if "Now" isn't the perfect time. There is no better time than now.

[No Spaces Rob]

Thanks very much for your excellent advice.

 

You are already moving way too fast, you like her way too much. If you haven't even asked her out yet and already you are thinking about her quite a bit... you're setting yourself up for heartache.

Unlike previous girls in my life, I'm not really thinking of this person in a 'heartbreak' sort of way. My emotional investment is pretty low. I find her sexually attractive so I think of her in that way a bit, but mostly I just think of her in a 'hmmm here is an opportunity for me to do something' kind of way.

 

Previously, and especially with the last girl I was infatuated with, it was quite painful - I was completely in love with her. I don't have anything like that with this girl, it is more 'i could take it or leave it, but I should try to take it'. In fact the fact that I don't have romantic feelings for her is kinda contributing to my procrastination. 'She's not perfect, she is not the one' etc. But she seems like a fun person and she is hot, and I know I have to get out of the 'infatuation' kind of mindset, so it is probably quite a good idea for me to try asking out some girl I am not 'infatuated' with.

[No Spaces Rob]

I asked her to go out for a drink with me next wednesday.

 

Actually, thinking back on it, I kinda regret that I didn't make my intentions clearer. I believe I said "Would you like to catch up for a drink next week". She accepted and gave me her phone number. Later, as she was leaving she gave me a kiss on the cheek as she went. Though that may mean nothing.

 

I've been working on my shyness. The day before, I met a woman in a restaurant. She was waiting for the rest of her group to turn up so I struck up a conversation. Also, at a christmas party I made a point of introducing myself to a couple of the people that I didn't know and having a brief chat.

 

Also I am going to try to work on not being intimidated by really beautiful women. When I see one, I find that I automatically move my eyes down to the ground as if I am not worthy of eye contact with her. I know it's silly, but it's automatic. I already mentioned above that I have been working on the eye contact and smiling. When someone smiles back, it really makes me feel better about myself.

[Kevin T]

Now THIS is what I like to see! A shy male breaking out of his shyness prison and becoming a someone with women!

 

It sounds like you've made a lot of progress and I think it's great! Keep up the good work. You're an inspiration to shy males everywhere!

[No Spaces Rob]

Thanks - actually, I wouldn't say that I have made a significant amount of progress.

 

I've never successfully made any sort of statement of intention with a girl I am attracted to. Like, telling her I find her attractive/want to date/want to have sex/kissing her. Well, other than a couple of times in my life and those times, I was already too emotionally involved and in a 'safe' relationship and I got hurt (hence I am terrified of repeating the same thing).

 

I understand it's completely normal for me to find some girl very sexy, but even imagining myself saying that to her is scary. It's kinda sad that perhaps my inability having more than platonic relationships with women stems from some sort of belief that it is disrespectful to women to want to have sex with them. Who knows, maybe it is because my parents never showed affection for each other in front of me. Maybe it's to do with the sexual education in schools being heavily slanted towards avoiding diseases and avoiding accusations of sexual harassment. But it's not like I don't want to, I just have a lot of barriers preventing me.

 

My thoughts are in the right place. I find this girl fun, and attractive, and would love to spend more time with her, play around with her, kiss her, hold her arm, share a bed with her, whatever. And I feel highly guilty and creepy about that, even though in the grand scheme of things there is nothing wrong with that. I just need to somehow figure out what is making me feel guilty about this and what is stopping me from acting on these impulses. I think it's not so much a fear of rejection as a fear of absolute humiliation. What if I go in for a kiss, or compliment her on her blouse and she becomes highly offended at my advances.

 

I think a lot of people misunderstand guys like me. They think we choose to get ourselves into platonic relationships with girls we like, because we have some sort of mistaken belief that it's going to help get the girl to like us. That's not the case at all. I would say that we get into platonic relationships with girls we like because we simply don't know how to progress it further. We get too scared to make a bold and daring move (what do do? say "i find you attractive, want to go out for coffee", or touch her arm or kiss her), and we put it off over and over again, repeatedly making excuses to ourselves. We hope that the girl will realise what we really want, and take the lead (invite us into a passionate kiss or into bed? I dunno). And we procrastinate so much that before we know it, we've known a girl for 5 weeks and she still has no idea what our intentions are - she may be suspecting we are gay, not interested, or some sort of 'platono-mon'.

 

I guess I'm going to call up this girl the day before or so, and organise this meeting on wednesday. She might flake out on it and turn out not to be interested. Or it might happen. When I meet her what on earth can I do to prevent it being 'just another pleasant conversation'? Should I go for a kiss, should I bring up the topic of relationships, should I tell her I find her sexy, should I touch her arm, her back, or her leg with mine? If so, how?

 

How do I prevent myself being simply a nice guy and just making pleasant conversation, smiling, laughing, and saying goodbye without anything really progressing, and regretting being such a wuss later? Lots of guys just say that at the end of the 'date' you should go in for a kiss. How? If I haven't managed to clue her in on my intentions, it'd just be completely unexpected and she would react to that.

[No Spaces Rob]

I called her up. Her mum answered, and she wasn't there. Funny thing - her mum knew who I was and everything. She said call back in an hour.

[No Spaces Rob]

Well, now I kinda know a bit more info. When I asked her out, she assumed I meant next wednesday rather than this wednesday (having a blonde moment or something) because she going to be away all week this week. She asked me to catch up with her next wednesday, which is cool with me. We had a bit of a convo and she seemed to enjoy it.

 

What really scares me though is that during the conversation, someone must have asked who she was talking to and she yelled back "my friend [rob]". That 'friend' word is going to piss me off continuously for days now. I know it. I am going to get really worried about it.

 

I don't know if I interpreted things wrong. She seemed good with the proximity and touching thing, we did the eye contact and smile thing, when I asked her out she gave me her phone number and later when she kissed me on the cheek and said we'll talk later.

 

So - what now! I wish I knew what to do. I really feel quite bad now, not because this is a girl I am infatuated with or anything (though I find her very attractive) but because it means that I'm a failure. If she thinks of me as a friend only then it is simply one more failure for me to successfully dating a girl. It means that the next girl I get a phone number from will be the same, and the girl after that. because somehow I give off some stupid platonic vibe. What else can I do? Short of grabbing her boob or something, what can an appropriate person do.

[pianoguy]

Hey Rob!

 

Don't beat yourself up about this buddy! You've already done so many things outside your comfort zone- I mean, dude, you got the girl's phone number. You should be proud. If, in the long run, she and you do end up being just friends, you didn't fail. Friends are great.

 

That said, don't rush to the conclusion that she thinks of you as just a friend already. You barely know her.

 

I notice on this board that you are referring to this as a "meeting"- have you used the word "date" at all? Cause I think that's what it is, or at least what you want it to be.

 

I think the fact that you and her are going to the bar alone, by yourselves, that's a good sign, especially if you don't know her that well. I don't think a girl would go to the bar with a random guy friend just to hang out unless they were very close, or unless it was part of a group of friends.

 

Try not to worry and get too nervous about this. Don't feel pressured to kiss her at the end of the night either- it's nice, but if you worry about HAVING to do it then it becomes a chore. Just be yourself, try to flirt a bit. Tell her her hair looks nice, girls love that.

[No Spaces Rob]

Hey pianoguy thanks for your reply.

 

I don't think I've been all that worried about 'failing' with this girl in particular. I think I am more worried about 'failing' with girls in general. Now that I re-read my previous post I realise I was probably pretty paranoid. In fact, I was watching TV the other night, and some girl had a crush on some guy, and her mum asked her who she was talking to and she called out 'it's just my friend todd' or something. Yeah so anyway... she lives with her mum too...

 

Since you ask, I haven't used the word 'date' with her at all. I asked if she would like to catch up for a drink with me some time.

 

I watched the 40 year old virgin a couple of weeks ago and thought to myself, hmmm, that could be me in 14 years! But then he met this girl and they went out... regardless of the advice his friends gave him. And they lived happily ever after. Which is good. Though they didn't have sex until marraige, which I was quite disappointed in. I'd love to have a sexual relationship some time soon and I would love to meet someone who I am into, and who is into me, etc. But I can't seem to meet someone who is seriously interested in me, and not just saying I am good looking to be nice, in a 'I don't see you that way but you're a nice guy and some girl (other than me) would be lucky to have you' kind of way. Sometimes I feel bad about myself. I'm 26. It wouldn't be so bad if I had chosen to be celibate, due to some sort of religious thing, but I have been wanting something all this time - all these years - and not knowing how to get it. And hurting.

 

This girl seemed like a good chance to turn my luck around in my 26 year getting-a-relationship quest and if I end up as just friends with her I won't have progressed any further in that quest, I'll just feel like even more of a failure. It was bad enough turning 21 with no girl experience, let alone 25, but now it's edging close to 30.

 

Sorry to sound melodramatic, but I wanted to put it into context.

 

I am not ugly - average height average build. My friends say that my deep brown eyes and brown hair work in my favour. And obviously I have no problem speaking to or relating to girls as I have female friends and girls tend to like me. I am highly intelligent. I am interested in all sorts of geeky things like photography and movies, even computer programming, and I am artistic. My main problem is that I don't know how to break through that invisible barrier with women - and position myself as a guy they might like to have a romantic or sexual thing with. Even though for all these _years_ I have wanted to. This is obviously not something I can just get over easily, if I have been trying to for like a decade and still haven't progressed.

[sparkly]

man don't disappoint me.i thought you were my rob

[pianoguy]

Hi Rob,

 

Sorry for the delay, I was out of town and away from the computer for the past week.

 

Thanks for such a heartfelt post... I found it quite moving. I can relate to alot of what you said. I was a virgin up until this year, and keenly aware of it- if you are bored you can sift through some of my old posts on this board where I complain endlessly about this.

 

One thing I will say is to be very cautious with movies, TV, etc. as a standard of dating behavior. In my case it was Seinfeld, one of my favorite shows ever- but I was always thinking, "They have no trouble getting dates- they meet people on the subway, at church, by dialing wrong numbers... why can't I meet anyone?" The truth is that the show is pretty inaccurate in this manner. Shows, movies- they are entertainment and present fictional people in fictional situations.

 

Shows also act as fantasy- wish-fulfilling vehicles. We all know the romance movies where the two meet, fall in love at first sight, and live happily ever after. While this sometimes happens, for most people it happens in myriad other ways, and "happily ever after" is never attained without some kind of compromise and give-and-take that is the necessary part of any relationship.

 

The next problem with TV is that it presents this scenario as the ideal that we all need to strive after, and we then feel that if we don't attain it that we are failures.

 

Basically what I am saying is that you are being too hard on yourself- society expects you to have had sex by this point in your life, you haven't, and you then conclude that you are a failure. Not at all! I know plenty of people that have sex all the time and are much more of a failure than you are.

 

Likely you are probably thinking at this point, "well, that's all well and good, but I would still like to have sex and romance, regardless of what society tells me."

 

I understand what you are going through- it seems to me men have this especially hard since we seem to require sex in greater dosages than women.

 

As I sit here and reflect on that part of my life, I can't recall many things that people could say that would make me feel better. The things that did help me were projects of self-improvement, and spending time with my friends. I had many projects and schemes going on to help me with my dating problems, and even if they didn't all work out, they made me feel better about myself, made me feel like I was doing something constructive that would help me in the long run. Some of these things included:

 

-Posting a profile on some internet dating sites

-Loudly telling all my friends I was single and mentioning that I was open to

being set up with somebody appropriate.

-Attempting to talk to more people in public settings, trying to flirt on more occasions

 

In your case, you are already doing well at the third one. The fact is that you have made several forays outside of your comfort zone and should be exceedingly proud.

 

Some people are dismissive of the other two methods. I was really skeptical of internet dating, but I ended up meeting my boyfriend off of Yahoo. My parents met on a blind date set up by a mutual friend (method #2).

 

Also- my friends (both genders) helped enormously. You sound like you have a number of friends, if you can confide in them it helps alot. I know a lot of men (including myself) have this problem where we don't talk about our problems with our friends because we feel like we are "burdening" them or that we need to be strong and solve our problems on our own, but that's what friends are for, to support each other. They can also help you with solutions and ideas to explore for dating opportunities.

 

When you do go out on a date, don't view it as having to end in kissing, romance, and sex, for it to be a success. I mean, yes, all that stuff is great, but you are placing way too much pressure on one date, on yourself, and on the girl. Essentially, you are expecting her, and this one moment, to be your salvation for everything that's happened up until this point. That's too much to expect.

 

And I think you are being way too hard on yourself with regards to all your relationships up to this point- I strongly doubt that you really haven't made any improvements since you were 16. I think you need to reflect a bit on the accomplishments you have made since that time, socially and otherwise, and I think you will find alot to be proud of.

 

I hope I have said something that will give you hope... did you end up going out with the girl? How did it go?

[No Spaces Rob]

 

I hope I have said something that will give you hope... did you end up going out with the girl? How did it go?

 

Thanks very much for your words of encouragement. We didn't end up going out unfortunately.

 

When I suggested where to meet up she cancelled. She was too sick. Well, he SMS said "Rob, as much as i love u I am leaving work right now and I am so * * * *ing sick..." etc etc and she went on to talk about work a bit. So I replied and she replied etc.

 

It kinda gets me down a bit because this has actually happened more often than not. A girl will cancel only a few hours before we arranged to go out. But I am friends with her workmate and she really did leave early and then she was still away from work today - sick.

 

So once again I have absolutely no clue what to do. I didn't beg for another date when I talked to her, cos I thought that would be a bit desperate and also a bit harassing, particularly if she is sick. I just had a bit of a polite and fun chat. My thoughts at the time were that it was all over and I need to ask other girls out. Well, I still should do that of course. But knowing that she was truly sick kinda makes me feel as if it would be cowardly not to give up on her now. I just wish I knew what to do, and I am still concerned that I haven't shown her my intentions - ie that I seem to have given the wrong signals like I just want to be a friend which is going to confuse her (hence the title of my thread) and make her put me in her 'friend' zone.

[No Spaces Rob]

Okay, I'd really like to do this - I'd really like to jump over this silly hurdle that I've not been able to jump the last couple of decades.

 

Firstly, this particular girl - we were going to meet up after work, earlier that arvo she was feeling sick and went home. Wasn't at work the next day either. Can I salvage this? I am thinking that I need to come clean with her and let her know I find her sexually attractive. Cos she might kinda dig me apart from the whole shy quiet thing. But to be entirely honest, I find her hot and she seems to be not repelled by me and I just have no idea how to progress that kind of thing. I haven't even talked to her since wednesday. What next?

 

Secondly, approaching any other girls - I'll be entirely honest here. There are some great girls that I would be entirely comfortable getting to know better but in terms of getting into any sort of relationship, I kind of feel as if they are 'hands off', not least because I got into a painful situation with a workmate once before. Not to mention that I kind of feel a bit pathetic to only be interacting with girls that I know because I work with them.

 

I share a house with two people (my sister and a guy) who virtually never go out, and when they do it's with each other for a meal only. And my sister disapproves of me bringing friends home. Excuses excuses, I know, but it kind of limits me. Also, the idea of taking a class in order to meet women seems a bit silly, because if I were to take a class it should be in something I want to do anyway. It seems like there is a lot of pressure on men, according to all dating sites I've seen, to try and engineer a situation in which you can appear to meet women 'naturally'. That is to say, I _should_ go out an join a club so I can talk to the women in that club and pretend I wasn't just joining the club in order to talk to women in a non threatening setting.

 

Internet dating seems crappy to me, I would much rather in-person interactions where I can feel the body language, or whatever. It's just that I don't know how to progress anything - to bed, or to a date, for example. Only to a little friendship.

 

If one more person tells me "dude, you shouldn't try to become their friend" I'll go insane. I know that already. I try my hardest to become more than a friend but I don't know how. I feel as if I need specific guidance in every step of the way, from how and when to touch a woman, from how to talk about dates, relationships, sex, and when. For me, nothing has ever progressed into a relationship - I don't know how to do that, I just don't.

 

So I feel as if I need some help from people who have experience in going from where I am now to where I want to be. And right now I want to be getting sexual with this girl who was sick the other day, and I want to be able to meet girls and have nice dates with them in contexts where they 'understand' it is a date and not just some strange polite platonic kind of guy.