for my 666th post: why is there 'evil'?

[Daddy Bear]

why do people abuse each other? why do so many relationships end in tragedy? some would point to the existence of a 'Devil' or a Star Wars-like 'Dark Side', but i suspect that may be simply an easy way to explain away the wrongdoing that is prevalent in every corner of society, and in any case it does not shed much light on the question of why so many are unable to resist the impulse, Satanic or not, of doing harm.

 

when i walk down the street i see mainly the basic goodness of humanity: people smiling and nodding, slowing down to let others change lanes, and, "Excuse me, sir... you dropped your wallet."

 

but now and then, especially behind closed doors when no one is looking, there seems to be a far more sinister dynamic all too often at work. what gives??

 

of course, this post is directed primarily toward those who do not believe in the literal interpretation of the Bible but, to echo the sentiment of the Episcopal Church that i grew up in, "all are welcome."

[yeawutever]

It depends mostly on how each individuals were raised. But yea, there is NEVER an excuse for abuse. And people who try to justify it are pathetic and very low.

[Jorus Cbaoth]

There are two causes. Science or spiritual. Nature or nurture. Some people believe in demons and evil forces as you said. Others believe it's the way you were raised. Personally I believe both. I think there is an unknown spiritual element that comes into play, good or evil, and I also believe that people who do *violence to others have a chemical imbalance in their brain.

 

*By violence I'm referring to abuse and such that you stated in your post, not things like defending yourself while getting robbed, or finding your wife with another man and shooting him.

[Derek]

Because people are broken...

 

On the other hand, "nature vs nurture" is also a "simplistic" explanation. Because it takes away individual responsibility and blames it on genes or parents. I don't subscribe to the "tabula rasa" (blank slate) theories to explain people's behaviour. There comes a moment where people have a choice to do good or evil, even given their genes and upbringing, people - unlike animals - can choose to overcome their genes, no matter how difficult. Can't they? Thus they have responsibility for their own choices.

 

The bigger picture is "the universe is broken" as well, thus bad things happen to good people.

[Sylph]

There is no evil, nor is there any good. They are concepts that we as humans made up so that we may apply them to objects and situations in a manner of generalisation. Nothing is good or evil by nature. Fluffy kittens aren't innately good, and savage wolves aren't innately evil, they just are. We may call someone a 'good person' but this, in my mind, is wrong, good people are still some how more than capiable of doing 'evil' things all the time. And visa versa.

 

To me the idea of evil spirits or the devil working against humanity just sounds like a device to shift the blaim away from some people and onto some abstract concept.

[Beyondthesea]

Why are people evil? Because they choose to be.

 

I truly believe that each and every action we make is a choice. We choose to do everything. We choose our thoughts, actions, friends, loves, what clothes to wear, what school to attend...

 

With that in mind, life is a choice. Whether we choose to be good or evil is just another one.

[yeawutever]

Right BeyondTheSea, I do agree on that one. One rotten apple doesn't necessarily rot the others. I can be having friends who are let's say drug addicts or that steal, but that doesn't mean I'll do the same thing. If someone messes up in life, oh well, then that was your decision, you chose it, no one put a gun on your head.

[AwdreeHpburn]

yeh - what Sylph said. I second that.

 

Great thread bendah - and I just want to put my own wicked spin on it...

 

I don't believe nurture vs nature is the same as science and spiritual but I get the point...OK, no I don't, but here's my take.

 

I am a very devout and practicing -religiously- practicing athiest. I believe in behavioral science, psychology and all that. I do believe there is a lot about the brain we don't know yet but I do not believe that people act in the horrible manner they occasionally do because of an outside evil.

 

Some of the reasons for some of the behaviours are easily explained. Some are not, but most often, having no explanation is due to lack of understanding. Sort of like when some woman discovered that tree bark had healing qualities and gave it to some one for pain, no one understood so they called her a witch and burnt her at the stake.

 

And now we know that there ACTUALLY is healing power in willow tree bark and that's how we discovered and made aspirin.

 

There's an explanation for everything, we just have to discover it.

[itsallgrand]

Humanity is flawed. lol. I don't believe in outside forces (demons, devil, evil).

Humans simply do not know everything, nor will they ever.

Sometimes we are ignorant. Sometimes greedy. Sometimes we delight in wickedness.

 

I don't seek answers anymore so much as I feel "man, this is sad. It's pointless and needless".

[Derek]

It takes more faith to be an atheist than to be a theist.

 

You'd be better off being agnostic.

 

=)

[Daddy Bear]

You'd be better off being agnostic.

 

=)

 

like me! i could always use the intellectual company. i was happy being an atheist until i attempted to prove my case. i realized then that it was an impossible task and that thereforeeee, atheism truly is a matter of faith.

 

plus, there is just enough serendipity in my life to keep me wondering... ya know?

[AwdreeHpburn]

no. I don't.

 

But I BELIEVE the opposite.

 

I think atheism is based on the lack of a faith in everything but the provable. Just because there isn't a current answer for something doesn't mean the answer doesn't exist. Nor does it mean we should attribute the answer to something that forces us to have faith alone.

 

I think, and I truly mean this intellectually SB, if you couldn't prove your case, you just needed to do more research.

 

Not to get into a religious debate or anything.....

[Derek]

Not to get into a religious debate or anything...

 

But you realize you are saying,

 

I have FAITH..., that if I research enough, then the answers will be what I think they are.

 

Existence (or not) of a higher power (or evil) isn't about proof, it's about faith because it can't be totally proven. At least theists acknowledge the aspect of faith.

 

Agnostics are happily fence sitters. A more tenuable position but not very satifying.

 

Finally putting your weight down on a belief system is a great feeling, whether true or not. But it's better if it's true.

 

 

[Daddy Bear]

a religious debate is fine by me, Derek. that's kind of what i half-expected when i opened the thread. anywhere the discussion goes is cool, really.

 

i have reached the logical conclusion that by their intangible nature, the existence of supernatural forces or beings can never be proved or disproved by any human being. it actually feels like the most solid perspective that i've had on the subject of religion, and exposes the alternatives as too uncomfortably subjective for my way of thinking.

 

true, every now and then i may get an unexpected visit from a long-lost friend who had been on my mind a lot, and that gives me pause to wonder and be grateful; and the next day i may hear of the death of a newborn baby and mourn the lack of any benevolent protectorship, but these types of things taken in their totality bind me more securely to where i am--not so much undecided per se between the two poles of atheism and theism, just secure in the knowledge that some things cannot be known.

[redandblack]

Diabolical evil came into western throught from Christianity who got it from Zoroastrianism and Greek ideas. Brew for several hundred years and you get a satan, demons, and angels. It's all culturally constructed.

[Daddy Bear]

historically accurate, r&b, but it doesn't justify or explain why some people beat their spouses and children, or why two men would be savagely attacked for walking down the street hand in hand...

 

maybe Derek came closest to the truth when he said that people are just broken.

[redandblack]

Maybe, but broken compared to what? Humans are complex animals and, often times, you simply cannot figure out "why" certain things happen. A lot of it has to do with upbringing and culture. I'm sure some of it is biological, too, but I really hate to boil things down to that. It's a sad world we live in. But at the same time it's a beautiful one. The key is to find the beauty and counter act the ugliness.

[Daddy Bear]

again, i find myself agreeing with you, r&b. to take a stab at your question, i can't speak for Derek but i would say "broken" as compared to living by the Golden Rule.

[redandblack]

"broken" as compared to living by the Golden Rule.

 

I can only guess. I'm going to say because there are very few consequences for not living the golden rule unlike in other societies (they have 'witches' and, generally, a sign of a witch is one who acts contrary to society in a negative manner). This is, partly, the price we pay for 'the individual' being the focus of one's world. But I could be wrong!

[AwdreeHpburn]

well.... I dunno. I mean, there's nothing WRONG with faith, I guess. Depening on what one has faith IN. I don't have much "faith" in Bush as president of the US.

 

I don't have much "faith" in a cured pedophile. It all totally depends. I have faith in myself.

 

I'm much more happy knowing that I can actually control what goes on in my life. And that I don't have to rely on or blame something I don't even know exists for mistakes, shortcomings or successes.

 

I have "faith" in myself and that's empowering.

[yeawutever]

Same here, no faith in bish, but yea, faith in myself.

[doyathink]

I believe this life is the only "Hell" I will ever know and for some this life is the only "Heaven" they will ever know! I do believe in God and trust his wisdom, not mine! I believe in love, I believe there is hope and have faith in my God. I guess I have to believe there is something bigger and better than this, that's what gets me through the day.

[Daddy Bear]

I don't have much "faith" in Bush as president of the US.

now let's not speak badly of the less fortunate, folks. you know the poor guy can't help the way he was born.

 

besides, look at all the good he's done in... in... well, i'm sure there must be something.

[AwdreeHpburn]

I hear ya Doyathink.....we all need something.

 

For me, its coffee.

 

I can't make it thru the day without the java gods...

[novaseeker]

Hehe. Interesting discussion.

 

I fall firmly in the "agnostic" camp. A bit intellectually lazy? Perhaps, but I'm not a believer in "systems", intellectual or otherwise, and so I am generally a skeptic of both theistic and non-theistic "systematic thought", so it suits me fine. YMMV.

 

As for why there is "evil", it really depends on what you consider evil, on what basis it is to be determined as such and why, and so forth.