Damsels In Distress

[nikki blu]

What is with men wanting to "save" a girl? Lately, I've noticed that many of my male friends and now my brother, seem to be attracted to women that are needy, super clingy, dramatic, or just plain crazy!

 

When I ask why they dump the confident, independent, sane girlfriends...the answer is "She's great, beautiful, smart....I just can't be in a relationship with her." But you struggle with a totally dysfunctional woman thinking you can change her? And yes, I know women do it, too....I don't get it!

[RayKay]

Don't worry, only some men do this. There are many of great men out there whom want a functional, mature, responsible, intelligent, independent woman. And some of the ones whom do do it, eventually grow and learn it is not the best thing to be doing at all.

 

It's knight in shining armour syndrome. They are the male version of the women whom stay with a man whom they hope to "change" into something better. Many of them fall for the "victims" hoping to rescue them from their plights, and earn their love in return. Most of them learn over time that they cannot rescue them though, as either these women love the drama they have created in their lives and recreate it with the new guy or leave to find someone whom will - over and over, or that they are not ready to save THEMSELVES. Which anyone around this forum should know, is the only way to create change and change your life - to save yourself.

 

I am not fond of Laura Schlessinger overall, but I will give her some credit that in her book the "10 Stupid Things Men Do To Mess Up Their Lives" she has a very good discussion on the phenomenon, and well just how stupid it is in the end.

[Mrocza]

Ya, some guys are intimidated because they're stuck in the man-being-stronger/more dominent mindset.

 

I think it really depends on the guy and potentially how they're raised.

 

I consider myself a strong, smart and independent woman but sometimes I need that little extra push or reassurance from my boyfriend. He tells me however, it's the independent and fierce girl that he fell for.

 

Guys are intimidated more often than not if a woman is viewed as more successful or perhaps even not needing a man in her life. I know many women who are AMAZING, beautiful, gorgeous successful women who know what they want. They have great personalities, senses of humour, financial stability- the package. BUT they have nice cars, they're self-sufficient, they're go-getters...To men: High Maintaince.

 

It's strange but there are some men out there with a 21st-century mind set as well

[Frajhav]

There are many of great men out there whom want a functional, mature, responsible, intelligent, independent woman.

 

Wait...Raises hand.....no wait wait!!! Bouth hands!!!

[Shadows Light]

Some men needed to be needed. Have a purpose. Makes them feel worthwhile... adds to their appeal and resume if you will.

[Caldus]

Eh, not particularly attracted to the idea of dumping a confident girlfriend for a needy one.

[Shidoshi]

When I ask why they dump the confident, independent, sane girlfriends...the answer is "She's great, beautiful, smart....I just can't be in a relationship with her."

The women they were with might have been too much to deal with and/or these guys felt they found the better deal. There's nothing wrong with confident/independent women, but in what way and to what degree are they these things?

It's knight in shining armour syndrome. They are the male version of the women whom stay with a man whom they hope to "change" into something better. Many of them fall for the "victims" hoping to rescue them from their plights, and earn their love in return.

I have to disagree with this. The women who do this want to change these so called "jerks" and/or simply enjoy the challenge that comes with these types. If the challenge disappears the women usually do also. Men on the other hand, do it usually because the woman is either really attractive to them and/or they feel they can't do any better so they put up with a lot of crazy drama. The motivation isn't the same for both genders.

Ya, some guys are intimidated because they're stuck in the man-being-stronger/more dominent mindset.

A woman who is as strong and dominant as I am is definitely not attractive in my book. I don't think this is about some men being "stuck" in this mindset. It goes a lot deeper than that.

[nikki blu]

The women they were with might have been too much to deal with and/or these guys felt they found the better deal. There's nothing wrong with confident/independent women, but in what way and to what degree are they these things?

 

A woman who is as strong and dominant as I am is definitely not attractive in my book. I don't think this is about some men being "stuck" in this mindset. It goes a lot deeper than that.

 

 

I define these women as individuals who would like a man to enhance her life, not validate it...She's an ADULT...She does'nt need a hero to take care of her, but that does'nt mean she doesn't need or want HIM.

Seriously is it ego, or what?

I'm just tired of seeing good, but totally blind men pass up good women for emotional vampires!

[sweetheart230]

I don't know, cause I'm not a guy, but I think it might be because men are intimidated by girls who seem to have it all together. In my experience, even men with high self esteem, feel bigger and stronger when they're helping a woman. It strokes their ego and makes them feel important. This can come to extremes, and in this case its not healthy at all. But most guys like to feel useful and superior and like a man. And it makes them feel like a man to help a woman.

 

In other words, many men feel emasculated by a woman who can "do it all". A lot of vulnerability and neediness is really unhealthy (and they guys who dig these superclingy, helpless girls are either nuts or desperate), but a little bit of vulerability makes a man feel bigger and stronger. I don't know why, but exposing some my own vulerabilities with men (naivte, being stupid in some areas, being unable to open my own bottles) usually makes me more endearing to them. When I was superneedy emotionally, though, I got bad guys. So there's a happy medium.

[Shadows Light]

In other words, many men feel emasculated by a woman who can "do it all". A lot of vulnerability and neediness is really unhealthy (and they guys who dig these superclingy, helpless girls are either nuts or desperate), but a little bit of vulerability makes a man feel bigger and stronger. I don't know why, but exposing some my own vulerabilities with men (naivte, being stupid in some areas, being unable to open my own bottles) usually makes me more endearing to them. When I was superneedy emotionally, though, I got bad guys. So there's a happy medium.

This cracked me up!! cause... the pheonom my GF and I lament about. Is how is it that all the guys who have their stuff together are with the "ditzy women".... almost makes you want to dumb down. Personally, I don't think they are ditzy or dumb at all. I think they are dumb as foxes. While their sitting in their mini-mansions poolside... I'm slaving away making a buck. uggghhh. However, If I have to dumb down to get there... forget that crap!!! I'm not selling my self-respect for a Mr. Wonderful with the power job, mini-mansion and glitter. ugggghhhh. Rather work my tail off myself.

[nikki blu]

Unfortunately, sweetheart is right...I've witnessed smart women dumb down

for the sake of the "heroic" affections of a man. I didn't read that book or I missed the "Stepford" chip implant...

I realize for many women it can be all about the game, but I also believe some women have been taught that this is the only way to catch a man...and sadly, it seems to work more often than not!

In this day and age isn't time to get real? Let the wounded Scarlett O'Hara script go!

[the yang to the worlds yin]

Unfortunately, sweetheart is right...I've witnessed smart women dumb down

for the sake of the "heroic" affections of a man.

 

unfortunately i've seen it as well, especially among younger females. it just seems that if their willing to dumb themselves down to make themselves more complimentary or appealing towards a man, then they'll eventually give their entire essense up or dignity up for the same man. it's just going to lead themtowards one incredibly disasterous relationship.

 

plus if a man can't accept that his women's got her act together and has some brains, then why would anyone want to be with that man who's obviousely too insecure to appreciate a good thing.

[Venturer]

My brother is like that. And now he's stuck in a miserable marriage he can't get out of without getting hit financially or not being able to see his kids.

 

I have vowed a million times to NEVER marry a woman like my brother's wife.

[Derek]

I'm curious, what would be the definition of a "man who's together" ?

 

And what's it take to be a woman who's together?

[Shadows Light]

I agree with that. At the moment I am still struggling with overcoming my shyness and even though my boyfriend supports me all the way, he sometimes tells me he worries that once I am confident I will not need him and will just walk away. Just because I gain a little confidence, it does not mean I will fall out of love with him.

 

This one just is a burr under my saddle!!! I've heard this one before... "I'm afraid your gonna leave me and find someone better... I'm afraid your're gonna figure out you can do better than me... I'm afriad...."

 

Ya know... "FEAR" sets up allot of problems. Because of "YOUR" fear... now I'm afraid to breathe cause gosh forbid you get jealous. This happened in my relationship. And I think my cofidence in my self and who I am.. was sabotaged. Why?? because of fear.. his own insecurities.

 

And I say... BS to that. You're afraid you are lacking somewhere?? well then step up to the plate darlin and keep on learning... keep on growing.. and keep growing as an individual. You want to keep my respect.. then you take charge of your OWN insecurities and you work on them. But don't hold me back, hold me down... or bind me to your will and expectations.... either run at the head of the pack with me... or get out of my way!!!!

[Shadows Light]

I'm curious, what would be the definition of a "man who's together" ?

And what's it take to be a woman who's together?

 

I think the definition is different for each individual.

To me having it together means that I have a plan.. albeit scetchy plan of what I want to do or accomplish with my life.

 

We all kind of had a life plan from K-12... it was done for us. The high level plan of someones life is.. Go to school, grad from school, go to college, get a career/job, meet mr. wonderful, get married, by a house, have children, raise children, etc....

 

The person who has it all together has taken some of the bigger things.. broken it out in buckets and has some clue/plan on how to obtain these things or how to go about getting them to fruition.

 

A person who has it together... rolls out of the muckhole and lands on thier feet like a cat...(eventualy.. lol.)

 

A person who has it together has morals/values...akin to my own. Is pretty much a responsible person in most areas of his life. Doesnt' do drugs, drink or hide behind these type of crutches.

 

A person who has it together does not have to be Donald Trump... but has a good head on thier shoulders and isn't a total spend-thrift. If I spent all my money on shoes, but I was in deep debt... is this a responsible choice???? nope. If I run up my credit card expenses and paying 22% interest on impulse buys and frivalities is that a responsible choice???

 

A person who has their stuff together... lives thier life in a responsible way. LOL... most of the time. And tries to make choices that are not SELFISH and only for themselves.. but are inclusive of those closest to them.

 

A person who has their stuff together.. keeps on living.. keeps on trying.. he runs with the ball.. he's not just a spectator.. or consistantly passes the ball to me to make the shots. He plays the game, fairly.

 

As I said... the definition of a person who has their stuff together... probably would be someone who holds morals/values that are consistant with my own.

[Derek]

Cool, by that kind of definition, I am very "together" =) I've done all the steps until the having a family part.

 

*shrug*

 

I'll keep on keeping on...

 

 

[Shidoshi]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shidoshi

The women they were with might have been too much to deal with and/or these guys felt they found the better deal. There's nothing wrong with confident/independent women, but in what way and to what degree are they these things?

 

A woman who is as strong and dominant as I am is definitely not attractive in my book. I don't think this is about some men being "stuck" in this mindset. It goes a lot deeper than that.

 

 

 

I define these women as individuals who would like a man to enhance her life, not validate it...She's an ADULT...She does'nt need a hero to take care of her, but that does'nt mean she doesn't need or want HIM.

Well, that really didn't answer my question. I also don't think of men and women as enhancments. Men need women just as much as they need us. Are you a feminist by any chance? It seems likely based on the tone of your reply.

Seriously is it ego, or what?

Are you specifically asking me or is this a rhetorical question?

I'm just tired of seeing good, but totally blind men pass up good women for emotional vampires!

How about you ask these guys directly what they prefer in women, and what exactly turned them off of the women they were with before? Your description of the choices these men make in women is directly related to your opinion of them. How can you say this about them, yet describe them as "good" men, or are you saying they're good, but weak and stupid?

 

I guess I just don't see this phenomenon of good men going after crazy, idiotic, needy women because they can't handle women who "have it together", whatever is meant by that.

 

Now I'm hearing (from other posters) about how some women dumb themselves down for guys. Wow, guys are real idiots aren't they? I mean these guys are so insecure/fragile and oblivious that they don't realize women are patronizing them. I'm aware that this can be the case for some, but it seems to happen often enough (based on the replies I'm reading) to warrant this discussion. Honestly, lets get some examples of this because I'm really curious as to how often this happens and your theories as to why.

[nikki blu]

Well, that really didn't answer my question. I also don't think of men and women as enhancments. Men need women just as much as they need us. Are you a feminist by any chance? It seems likely based on the tone of your reply.

 

Let me break down my comment. You want someone to enhance your life...I'm using enhance in the sense of adding joy, love, and happiness that you can only receive from a mate.

A mate's presense, or lack thereof, in your life should not validate joy, love, and happiness in your life.

I'm a woman voicing my frustrations based on my observations, why does that sound feminist any more than you sound chauvinist?

 

Are you specifically asking me or is this a rhetorical question

 

Originally, it was a rhetorical question, but it's open for thoughts and opinions....

 

How can you say this about them, yet describe them as "good" men, or are you saying they're good, but weak and stupid?

 

 

Never said weak and stupid...I know plenty of good people who make less than smart decisions in relationships and need guidance. That's why this website exists, Thank Goodness!

To answer your question, these men aren't totally turned off by stable women, they just seem to feel like the needy ....well, NEED them just a little more!

Brings me back to the ego question....does it have to be stroked in such an unnecessary, dramatic way?

 

Now I'm hearing (from other posters) about how some women dumb themselves down for guys. Wow, guys are real idiots aren't they? I mean these guys are so insecure/fragile and oblivious that they don't realize women are patronizing them. I'm aware that this can be the case for some, but it seems to happen often enough (based on the replies I'm reading) to warrant this discussion. Honestly, lets get some examples of this because I'm really curious as to how often this happens and your theories as to why.

 

I think it's apparent that the world of dating is going through a generation and culture shift, but there are some old tricks that are still being taught...the "Dumb Down" method which feeds the "I Can Love You, If I Can Save You" complex.... just two chapters in a book of issues.

[sweetheart230]

Maybe I was a little unclear. I don't dumb myself down, or think that's the answer. I have a friend who does this and is unsuccessful with men. Not that I'm a raging success either, but I admit when I don't know someone, I don't have everything all together, I'm vulnerable sometimes and I do need help sometimes.

 

In other words, if theres a heavy table that needs to be moved, I let a guy move it for me. If I can't open my bottle of turpentine for painting, I let the guy next to me do it. When I don't know if I'm getting on the right train I ask someone (one night it just happened to be a very attractive man and I met the nicest guy ever). And when I go on dates, I let them drive and pay (and I make sure they know I appreciate it). I expect to go out and work (at least until I have kids). I'm an economics major, so I'm not stupid. But I lack common sense sometimes. My ex thought some of the dumb things I said were charming, sometimes.

 

Men like to feel useful. I'm sorry if independent women don't like it, but a little bit of vulnerability is not only ok, but it makes you human. Deep down, you all know you want to be taken care of in one way or another. Well most men want to take care of you. They probably saw their fathers taking care of their mothers and feel that in order to be a man, they must do the same.

 

I remember reading once, if you let a man behave like a cad, a cad he will be. If you expect him to be a prince, then he will be. A man will do only as much as you expect of him. Expect much.

[Shidoshi]

Let me break down my comment. You want someone to enhance your life...I'm using enhance in the sense of adding joy, love, and happiness that you can only receive from a mate.

A mate's presense, or lack thereof, in your life should not validate joy, love, and happiness in your life.

Being that we aren't naturally solitary creatures, we don't want to be in relationships, we need to be. The feelings you've described are the result of having your desires to be paired with another person fulfilled to some extent. We don't simply enhance each others lives, we are a necessity. How do you think you'd feel if you went, lets say, 6 years straight without any intimate contact with the opposite sex? We all feel validated in some way when we connect with another person(s).

I'm a woman voicing my frustrations based on my observations, why does that sound feminist any more than you sound chauvinist?

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a feminist (in and of itself), but how would that even compare to someone who's a chauvinist? Feminism isn't the female equivalent of male chauvinism. I asked because you came off that way to me, and there are self proclaimed feminists out there that take things too far, thats all.

Never said weak and stupid...I know plenty of good people who make less than smart decisions in relationships and need guidance. That's why this website exists, Thank Goodness!

To answer your question, these men aren't totally turned off by stable women, they just seem to feel like the needy ....well, NEED them just a little more!

To say that a guy would leave a woman because she has plans for the future, is intelligent, and can support herself financially (assuming that's what you mean by sane girlfriends), is to me, implying that he is a weak, insecure, individual. Then to say that he would leave this perfectly sane woman to be with a totally dysfunctional woman simply because she strokes his ego, to me, is implying that he is also stupid. I mean, wouldn't he have to be?

Brings me back to the ego question....does it have to be stroked in such an unnecessary, dramatic way?

If the reasons you stated truthfully describe the decisions of the men in question, then I'd say yes...it does. For me, if a woman takes on the characteristics of a man as in assertive/dominant/masculine (I'm sure you're aware that these are precisely the types of behaviors that are attractive to women in men) behavior within the relationship then it would definitely be a turn off. Aside from being capable of taking care of themselves financially, how did the women you're referring to behave in these relationships? I just can't see a guy leaving a beautiful, intelligent, self sufficient woman simply because his ego can't handle her not being some needy mess, there has to be more to it.

I think it's apparent that the world of dating is going through a generation and culture shift, but there are some old tricks that are still being taught...the "Dumb Down" method which feeds the "I Can Love You, If I Can Save You" complex.... just two chapters in a book of issues.

Confident men don't need women to pretend like they're helpless, in some cases that can actually work against them. You'd be hard pressed to find a decent guy who would leave a good feminine woman just because she can support herself.

When I ask why they dump the confident, independent, sane girlfriends...the answer is "She's great, beautiful, smart....I just can't be in a relationship with her."

Seems you never got a direct answer, you came to your own conclusions. In case you're wondering what my beef is, it's that I get tired of hearing all the male bashing that's become more prevalent and excepted these days.

[nikki blu]

We don't simply enhance each others lives, we are a necessity. We all feel validated in some way when we connect with another person(s).

 

Use whatever terminology you want, my point is life still goes on if the connection doesn't last.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a feminist (in and of itself), but how would that even compare to someone who's a chauvinist? Feminism isn't the female equivalent of male chauvinism. I asked because you came off that way to me, and there are self proclaimed feminists out there that take things too far, thats all.

 

I know the definitions, I used chauvinist because you came off that way too me by your first response with a seeming disdainful portrayal of these men as "insecure, fragile, and oblivious" being victimized by patronizing women. Not the case I'm presenting.

 

Seems you never got a direct answer, you came to your own conclusions. In case you're wondering what my beef is, it's that I get tired of hearing all the male bashing that's become more prevalent and excepted these days.

 

 

I'm speaking for the nice, levelheaded, strong women who get tossed to the side for a woman far less, ONLY because she doesn't play the stereotypical damsel in distress.

I'm not a "self proclaimed feminist taking things too far" (interesting comment).... And I don't consider this male bashing...it's valid dating behavior.

[nikki blu]

My ex thought some of the dumb things I said were charming, sometimes.

Men like to feel useful. I'm sorry if independent women don't like it, but a little bit of vulnerability is not only ok, but it makes you human.

 

I agree, vulnerability in both sexes is an attractive quality. But to rely on acting dumb for the sake of being charming, is selling out...a la Jessica Simpson

[sweetheart230]

Yeah, I agree. I think the solution is, the smarter you are, the smarter your man should be. I hate to say it, but guys just like to feel big and powerful and smart. This way, you don't have to act stupid, he'll feel like a man and everyone wins! And phony dumbing down is just stupid. I certainly don't do it, I guess I'm just kinda naive naturally.

[Shadows Light]

I remember reading once, if you let a man behave like a cad, a cad he will be. If you expect him to be a prince, then he will be. A man will do only as much as you expect of him. Expect much.

I don't know.. I think I got a lemon. My "X" played stupid. If he acted like he didn't know how to do something. He knew I'd do it. If he just ignored something. he knew I'd get it done. If he did such a piss poor job.. he knew I'd never ask him again.

 

Men like to feel useful. I'm sorry if independent women don't like it, but a little bit of vulnerability is not only ok, but it makes you human. Deep down, you all know you want to be taken care of in one way or another. Well most men want to take care of you. They probably saw their fathers taking care of their mothers and feel that in order to be a man, they must do the same.

And maybe this is the problem. His dad.. didn't do for mom. He didn't do a darn thing. He'd bring home a check. And thats about it. Nothing. Nada. Nothing else. So my X.. was raised with a strong woman (PACK MULE) who did it all. And his expectations of "ME" were that I would take care of him. And that inlcuded working 40 plus hours a week.