Brokeback Mountain!!

[pianoguy]

Ok, let's take a break from the serious stuff for a minute. It's high time we have a big discussion about this film, whether we thought it was merely awesome or incredibly awesome, why we liked it, etc etc. The film stirred me deeply and I feel like I really need to share my feelings with some other gay people, and you're the only intelligent ones I know, so congratulations.

 

I had to drive almost 3 hours to see this film, but it was worth it. What struck me the most about this film, the first quality mainstream gay drama (which automatically guarantees it a place in history if only for this reason) is the fact that it transcends being a "gay" film and becomes just another quality romance movie. It is really nothing more than an updated Romeo and Juliet, just another take on the age-old (but seemingly always fresh) theme of forbidden love. I think just about anyone should be able to relate to this movie, whatever their orientation.

 

The dear girlfriend who took me to see this movie said this, "When Heath Ledger dies and they're doing the commemorative TV show for him, this will be the film that they mention the most." As absurdly cute as Jake Gyllenhaal is, Ledger's performance in this movie was really something else.

 

The two things I found the cutest were when they started wrestling on the mountain (although the outright fighting that came afterwards was pretty scary, well do I understand the fury and passion that fueled that...) and when they kissed for the first time and Jack kept saying, "It's ok, it's ok..." as he often did throughout the movie. I found this very paternal (maternal? fraternal? not sure...) and loving, something I could see myself doing.

 

The movie was pretty faithful to the book, although the book ended in complete misery with Ennis fondling Jack's shirt rather than hearing about his daughter's marriage (wherever there is death, there is life) which helped make the pain of the movie a little easier to bear. In the book when Ennis and Jack saw each other the first time in 5 years after Brokeback, Ennis called Jack "Lil' darlin'" which was really cute and I wish they had left it in the movie.

 

I found myself thinking constantly about the movie, and I know that I will see it many times when it comes to a theatre closer to home. Most likely it is a form of escapism or a fantasy to take me away from my dreary life, but in a sense most movies are.

 

One question that the movie raised for me was: Was Ennis straight? I know this is me imposing my cultural bias and categorizing mind on the movie, but Jack seemed much more gay than Ennis. Ennis seemed to enjoy straight sex more, didn't seem to absolutely need Jack as much as Jack needed Ennis (case in point: Jack's incredibly sad excursion to Mexico). Just something to think about.

 

Another question my girlfriend and I discussed on the long drive back: Why do people love sad movies, sad music, sad art, etc? What is it about heartbreak and sadness that is so intrinsically beautiful? Why do we shun sadness and seek happiness only?

 

I can't wait to hear what you guys thought.

[Prufrock06]

***Spoilers included in this post***

 

 

Okay,

 

Please don't hate me but I really didn't think the movie was that great. I should probably preface this by saying that I read the short story years ago, back in 11th grade and absolutely loved it. I wasn't dealing with my sexuality back then, but I still identified with the story on both an emotional and creative level (it's a really well-written story -- very painful and brutal but beautifully composed at the same time). I even read it a few weeks ago in anticipation of the movie, which I saw a couple of days back but haven't sat down to talk with anyone about it.

 

That being said, I should probably say why I didn't enjoy the movie so much. I wouldn't call it a bad movie by any means -- the acting was extraordinary (especially Heath Ledger, who portrayed the character's emotional frustration so well that it was shocking at points, especially when he collapses in the barn door after saying goodbye to Jack for the first time and that man comes accross him and Heath yells at him) and the cinematography (always a favorite thing I look out for when going to movies) was absolutely beautiful.

 

But when the credits rolled, I was left sitting in my seat thinking: what's the big deal? Of course, I understand the cultural importance of this film, how it's taking a homosexual love story and making it mainstream, and I certainly applaud both the film and the filmmakers for that. I feel that "Brokeback Mountain" will go down in history as a landmark film for its frank and unapologetic portrayal of two men in love.

 

But as a film in itself, it just didn't really affect me in the way I expected it to. As a recently out young gay man, I went into this movie thinking a)it would be the best movie I've seen in a long time, and b) I would be so emotionally and psychologically blown away by the movie and it's message that I would be an emotional wreck for the next couple of days. But neither of these things happened. I like to consider myself a movie buff and I guess a disclaimer would be that I'm not too fond of Ang Lee movies but even the story itself didn't cut me the way the original short story did.

 

I didn't think the love story itself was that romantic -- to be honest, there were times when it was quite brutal. And I understand that this is the nature of the character and the situation that these two men are in, but I guess I was expecting more of a heartwarming love story, something romantic instead of tragic (which sounds silly considering that I knew the ending before going into the movie). I guess these two men (especially Ennis) were so closeted by themselves (Ennis) and by society (Jack) that aside from those tender kisses they share in the tent that first morning after having sex, the love didn't seem born out of romance so much as the social constraints themselves.

 

I guess in the end I feel like the real victory, the real watershed, will come when people can go to a movie and see two men in love, having sex, etc. and think, "Yeah yeah, so they're gay -- BFD. Now let's get to the real movie." I just found it kind of frustrating that we're still seeing movies where the entire structure of a gay relationship is built around the questions of "what will they think", "will they find us out", "what if they catch us" etc. etc. These aren't questions you find asked a lot in heterosexual love stories (unless there's a difference in race, class, etc, but not necessarily as a result of the two lovers' genders) -- is it too much to ask that we shouldn't have to ask these questions in homosexual love stories as well?

 

And part of me wants to just smile and nod and say that I loved the movie, but I don't feel that my being gay is an obligation to like Brokeback Mountain in the same way that someone who's African-American should feel obligated to like a film like "Beloved" or someone with HIV/AIDS should feel obligated to like "Philadelphia." I guess this too is another thing about the film that frustrates me -- that me saying I don't like it makes me worry whether I come accross as self-homophobic or anything less of a gay man. Will I have my gay license revoked because I'm not ecstatically in love with "Brokeback Mountain" the movie (as opposed to the story, which, as I said before, I love -- maybe that gives me an excuse? haha)

 

Whew. So back to your questions/comments, pianoguy (and thanks for introducing this thread!)

 

Jake Gyllenhall -- need I say more? ;-) I kept wishing for Ennis to get himself in order and run away with Jack to live on a ranch somewhere. That, to me, was a nice, heart-warming idea -- along with that brief moment by the campfire when Ennis wraps his arms around Jake and nuzzles his neck and they seem perfectly at ease with one another. Sigh....

 

The saddest scene: the end, with Ennis holding the two shirts to his chest. Also, I feel that the short story made it more unclear as to whether Jack was beaten to death or died the way his wife said he died. The movie seems to favor the former over the latter, or maybe this is just what Ennis believes.

 

pianoguy -- I don't think Ennis was straight so much as he was more socially repressed (read: closeted) than Jack was. It seemed to me like Ennis was so willing and able to supress his emotions and his desires that he had the ability to "shut himself off" whereas Jack, who seemed much more comfortable with his sexuality, wasn't able to contain his feelings as a result of this.

 

Sad art seems to be much easier to connect with than happy art. I find it much easier to cry or get emotional during a sad movie or a sad scene than a happy one -- though this isn't an absolute. I don't think a reaction to sad movies, music, etc. necessarily means that one is sad or depressed -- I just think that some people can experience joy in a much more attuned way than others, and the same thing goes for sadness as well. We see something sad happening and we feel for the person undergoing whatever saddens them. There's probably a lot of vicarious experience going on....what's that word called...catharsis? The same thing that goes on with horror movies: we watch them to get scared without being scared. So maybe we watch sad movies so we can be sad and emotional and work through our sadness without actually having to experience saddening things like the death of a loved one, unrequited love, etc.?

 

Whew. Long post.

[pianoguy]

I guess these two men (especially Ennis) were so closeted by themselves (Ennis) and by society (Jack) that aside from those tender kisses they share in the tent that first morning after having sex, the love didn't seem born out of romance so much as the social constraints themselves.

 

Well, yes, and well, no. The thing that stuck with me, the thing that I remember the most is the very few tender moments- the kissing the next morning, the wrestling, Jack sleeping on his feet... which all seemed pretty darn cute and loving. Granted, there was that pretty awful sodomy scene, and some of the passion after Brokeback did seem born out of societal constraints.

 

Personally, I thought the movie was much more romantic than the book, although to be sure neither of them were overblown by any means.

 

I guess in the end I feel like the real victory, the real watershed, will come when people can go to a movie and see two men in love, having sex, etc. and think, "Yeah yeah, so they're gay -- BFD. Now let's get to the real movie."

 

Hear, hear.

I just found it kind of frustrating that we're still seeing movies where the entire structure of a gay relationship is built around the questions of "what will they think", "will they find us out", "what if they catch us" etc. etc. These aren't questions you find asked a lot in heterosexual love stories (unless there's a difference in race, class, etc, but not necessarily as a result of the two lovers' genders) -- is it too much to ask that we shouldn't have to ask these questions in homosexual love stories as well?

 

Well, if you think about it, that would be a pretty boring movie. I mean, look at straight romance movies- Titanic, Gone with the Wind, The Notebook (sorry) - all of them have some kind of issue like race or class like you mentioned. It's just a popular theme, and this is just another very realistic take off on that.

 

And part of me wants to just smile and nod and say that I loved the movie, but I don't feel that my being gay is an obligation to like Brokeback Mountain in the same way that someone who's African-American should feel obligated to like a film like "Beloved" or someone with HIV/AIDS should feel obligated to like "Philadelphia." I guess this too is another thing about the film that frustrates me -- that me saying I don't like it makes me worry whether I come accross as self-homophobic or anything less of a gay man. Will I have my gay license revoked because I'm not ecstatically in love with "Brokeback Mountain" the movie (as opposed to the story, which, as I said before, I love -- maybe that gives me an excuse? haha)

 

Oh, I will be the first to stand up for your right to say that you absolutely HATED this movie. I know exactly what you mean, and I am glad that there is debate on this movie at all. Don't worry, you can keep your gay liscense

 

The saddest scene: the end, with Ennis holding the two shirts to his chest. Also, I feel that the short story made it more unclear as to whether Jack was beaten to death or died the way his wife said he died. The movie seems to favor the former over the latter, or maybe this is just what Ennis believes.

In the book I thought it seemed clear that Jack WASN'T beaten to death.

 

Sad art seems to be much easier to connect with than happy art. I find it much easier to cry or get emotional during a sad movie or a sad scene than a happy one -- though this isn't an absolute. I don't think a reaction to sad movies, music, etc. necessarily means that one is sad or depressed -- I just think that some people can experience joy in a much more attuned way than others, and the same thing goes for sadness as well. We see something sad happening and we feel for the person undergoing whatever saddens them. There's probably a lot of vicarious experience going on....what's that word called...catharsis? The same thing that goes on with horror movies: we watch them to get scared without being scared. So maybe we watch sad movies so we can be sad and emotional and work through our sadness without actually having to experience saddening things like the death of a loved one, unrequited love, etc.?

 

I should also point out, that while I love sad art myself, I grow impatient with people who only think that sad art is good art, or sad art is better than happy art. This seems to be something that changes with time. In music (the main form of art I work with) we see that the world's happiest music was produced in the second half of the eighteenth century, despite the fact that Europe was continuously at war in this time. Who knows, maybe artists produce art to remind us to be happy in sad times or to be sad in happy times.

 

Prufrock, I think one reason I was so blown away by this film is because I don't watch many romantic movies in general. And I don't think Hollywood has really made many good romances lately, I mean, what was the last great straight romantic movie? Titanic? This movie was far better than Titanic, much less sappy, more realistic, and a thousand times sadder.

[Prufrock06]

Well, yes, and well, no. The thing that stuck with me, the thing that I remember the most is the very few tender moments- the kissing the next morning, the wrestling, Jack sleeping on his feet... which all seemed pretty darn cute and loving. Granted, there was that pretty awful sodomy scene, and some of the passion after Brokeback did seem born out of societal constraints.

 

Good point -- it's interesting that you talk about the sodomy scene as being awful. That rushed and hurried and somewhat forced (in a physical sense) sex scene was probably the least romantic moment shared between the two of them and I remember being caught off guard while it was happening. But then contrast this with those moments you speak of the next morning, which are indeed very tender and romantic. It seems like the positive aspects of the relationship were focused more on the companionship, the physical closeness, instead of the actual sexual acts themselves (which, oddly enough, are never shown again onscreen for the rest of the movie)

 

Well, if you think about it, that would be a pretty boring movie. I mean, look at straight romance movies- Titanic, Gone with the Wind, The Notebook (sorry) - all of them have some kind of issue like race or class like you mentioned. It's just a popular theme, and this is just another very realistic take off on that.

 

You're right in that regard. I guess I just feel that the crisis in these romances in these movies you mentioned aren't constructed around differences or issues of gender (ie. in Titanic, the dilemma wasn't that Jack was a guy and Rose was a girl but that they were from different class sets) whereas here, if the couple in Brokeback was heterosexual, there would be no movie at all because the crisis is solely rooted in the fact that these are two men who are falling in love and not on the fact that one is rich and one is poor, one is black and one is white, etc. etc. Maybe because I'm gay myself, it doesn't seem as that big of a deal if I were a straight viewer going into this movie -- and so as a result I feel there's less at stake in the relationship than someone for whom the idea of homosexual love was not a common thought? I dunno...

 

Oh, I will be the first to stand up for your right to say that you absolutely HATED this movie. I know exactly what you mean, and I am glad that there is debate on this movie at all. Don't worry, you can keep your gay liscense

 

Yeah, all joking about gay liscenses aside, I guess the movie made me think about social and cultural groupthink -- in the sense that should I feel pressured to LOVE this movie because if I don't I will be seen as criticical of my own subculture and sexuality? I didn't out-and-out HATE the movie -- I'm glad that I spent my money to see it -- but I just didn't think of it as such a big deal from more a film point of view than a cultural point of view (in which I think this film will have a great impact and will do a good service). As films go, I enjoyed "King Kong" and "Munich" much, much more, even though there is less for me to identify with in those two movies on a plot-level.

 

And I know this "pressure" is mostly my own doing but I'm becoming less frustrated and more interested in this issue of "should we have to like it/can we say we don't like it." And I'm not trying to call out people who loved the film as just saying that because they feel pressured to do so, and I apologize if that's the way my first post came accross. I was speaking more from my own case than anyone elses

 

This movie was far better than Titanic, much less sappy, more realistic, and a thousand times sadder.

 

Agreed.

[metro_girl]

I just saw the movie today. I've been a huge fan of Jake Gyllenhaal since he was in October Sky - very different character. I'm a straight woman. I think there were only about five men in the entire movie theatre. It was mostly women. I think very few men will see this movie in public, unless they are openly gay.

 

Do you think a lot of straight women will now start to question their straight husbands and boyfriends if they take extended fishing trips but bring home no fish? In the year 2005, how common do you think it is for men to live a heterosexual public life and get married and have children, while they have private homosexual relationships? Is it much more common than we think?

 

My biggest question from the movie is whether Ennis was really gay. If he hadn't been alone on that mountain in the tent with Jack, would he have ever longed to be with another man? Jack sought those experiences out on more than one occasion, not that Ennis wasn't special to him. As a straight woman, I was left feeling completely confused about how Jack and Ennis could "act" except for the two or three times a year they were together and could truly be themselves. I also found myself wondering if the actors were really acting. I know people on here will post to say it doesn't matter, but I'm a woman who likes to think that Jake and Heath are straight. Seeing them kissing each other just sickened me a little. I don't mean to offend anyone. I just felt like I had been lied to all these years by these actors themselves, if that makes any sense.

 

Sorry for the long post. I thought it was a good movie, a tear-jerker.

[Jinx]

I also found myself wondering if the actors were really acting. I know people on here will post to say it doesn't matter, but I'm a woman who likes to think that Jake and Heath are straight. Seeing them kissing each other just sickened me a little. I don't mean to offend anyone. I just felt like I had been lied to all these years by these actors themselves, if that makes any sense.

This reminds me of a quote I seen the other day it was along the lines of - An actor can play a murder and have the audience convinced in the movie but never will they imagine the individual aside of this as a potential murderer without other reason. If an actor is straight but plays a gay role a majority of the public will then assume if it is a good performance they are then gay, you can't act gay well if you're not. - Yet, there are Gay and Lesbian actors which play straight roles, but does it make me question if they're really Gay or Lesbian afterall? Nope, not a bit. Its it the script. If they do a half- you know, job acting the audience and sales go poof. If they act it out too well sales go up and the public applies stereotypes.

 

Found the quote after some searching, it is:

People sometimes think I'm gay because I once played a gay in a movie. It's funny. Audiences don't think you're a murderer if you play a murderer, but they do think you're gay if you play a gay. - Perry King

 

Nonetheless more often than not, you'll be able to find interviews done after a movie from the actors that either play a Gay or Lesbian type role and they will ask something along the lines of - You did a good job, but what about that kissing and touching? - More often than not they view it as part of the job to do what they're told, most if not all of these individuals state they are perfectly comfortable because they know they are straight without question, so if they act gay in one movie, they know it will have no impact on them other than the public's opinion.

 

I do suppose that is how it would apply to most of us in the opposite manner, if we kiss someone of the opposite sex once for some reason it shouldn't be assumed we're now straight, at least to me it wouldn't, opinions vary I suppose. Most do date the opposite sex before deeming the fact that it wasn't a homosexual phase, and most likely within the phase of heterosexual dating they did kiss or similar actions for whatever reason. Of course this is all within reason, if someone states openly they're Gay or Lesbian and everytime they're out, hitting on or kissing or whatevering with the opposite sex I'd say we have just a "little" confusion bouncing around unless they're truly Bisexual.

 

Do you think a lot of straight women will now start to question their straight husbands and boyfriends if they take extended fishing trips but bring home no fish?

Most likely. There are many people who find themselves influenced by a scene in a movie regularly. I'm sure there will even be divorces made over this scene. Woman thinks - Huh, he and his buddy haven't caught fish, again. Ah! They must be cheating. - She claims this, strains an otherwise perfect seeming relationship and they divorce whether he really did cheat or not.

 

The movie as I hear is a good one, though the unfortunate half of this is that so many people are focusing on the infidelity portion, it bothers me to to a degree. As has been brought up, just how many people will take this to another level and add another stereotype, and everyone can be questioned? Its not good for us as the GLBT community, and I can't say it quite helps the straight community either. Of course a majority will see it for what it is, BUT as we all know sometimes the minority can be the voice for the majority to the point we have to say - Ouch.

 

In the year 2005, how common do you think it is for men to live a heterosexual public life and get married and have children, while they have private homosexual relationships?

I suppose it depends. Those men which have decided they could never exist that way find the relationship they want to be in. Those which are extremely bothered that they're not following the straight and narrow will try, I don't know how many times I've heard comments on boards and in coming out stories where people just deny and tell them to act straight. They do and look what happens. I'm not approving infidelity in any shape or form that bothers me extremely so, but society in a way is shaping certain scenarios here.

 

Gay men who want children and family in an extreme religious and conservative environment which they're otherwise comfortable aren't going to find a male partner, if they did it most certainly wouldn't be approved of in the open and may even be risking their lives in our modern times of "acceptance", I suppose its better now than it was years ago but we still have our beating here, harassment there, suicide over here, etc... And to adopt a child as a single father may raise suspicion or mass disapproval in these areas, thus that doesn't work. So how else do you solve this problem? Play straight until you get caught. Then everyone is hurt, the woman who got lead on thinking she had found a wonderful man whom ends up being gay, the gay man who finally got the family but not the love and found a lover and then loses his family. Everyone is broke apart, mass expenses and huge huge emotional and mental problems arising on both halves from the whole messy thing.

 

We'll always have people that cheat, straight or gay. Yet, I do believe there would much less of the Gay man trying to play straight if they weren't told that they were going to burn in hell for eternity or be threatened for being themselves. I've been told enough about burning in hell and it is usually considered more acceptable to be a lesbian than gay man, so let us presume it is doubled for them. Not good and it doesn't encourage them to be themselves thus not only one person gets hurt but at least two.

 

Edited: Because I found the quote I spoke of and some additional this and that.

[metro_girl]

I think there are still a lot of male actors in Hollywood today who are in the closet, married and having kids for publicity, because the public doesn't know what to do with a leading "man" who is gay. Why is that? IMHO when most people pay about $8 to see a movie, they want to fantasize a little. If you're watching a hot guy passionately romance a woman, and then later learn that when the camera stops rolling he'd rather be with a man, it's a little disappointing. If you asked most straight men how much they would need to be paid to play the part of a gay man and to kiss another man, I think they would need to be paid a lot of money. So, that's why people tend to question if male actors who play gay roles really are gay.

 

In Brokeback Mountain if these men weren't playing the role of gay men, they wouldn't be getting these award nominations. They are really acting. (I hope.) Sorry. I don't want Jake and Heath to be gay.

[FoxLocke]

I haven't read any of the other opinions yet. I am very eager to comment on the film...

 

As a huge fan of Jake Gyllenhaal(see my icon...lol)I would watch him in a documentary about belly button lint. Not only is he incredibly handsome, but Jake's also one of the finest young actors to come around in recent years. I love the majority of his films(except 'The Day After tomorrow,' which was a virulent piece of fluff...but Jake was worth wasting two hours of my life on).

 

I really did enjoy Brokeback Mountain myself. I asked myself whether or not it garnered my support simply because I'm gay. Or did I love it because I'm a fan of cinema? Perhaps it's a little bit of both(and **ahem**Jake)

 

First of all the acting was spectacular. All of the principle players--not just Heath Ledger--deserve Academy award nods. They were brilliant. The cast truly inhabited their characters. This is one of the first movies in along time where I actually forgot about the actors and looked at the characters as authentic personas.

Michelle Williams (Alma, Ennis' wife) broke my heart. The pain of loving someone who can't love you back, fully, was something that I could relate to. And don't get me started on Heath Ledger. This is his true breakout role. He's always been one of Hollywood's "IT" boys simply because he's a tall, handsome, Aussie...But he went all out for this one. And Jake is ever the consumate actor.

 

Like Pianoguy I felt the film expanded beyond borders. Gay and straight audiences could truly relate to this movie simply because it touched on a universal theme. It didn't depress me as much as I thought it would, but I'm kind of sensitive so by the end of the movie I had to dab away a tear when Ennis kept Jack's shirt and postcard...

 

My favorite scene was the final scene, on BrokeBack Mountain, where Jack and Ennis informally break up. The line that broke my heart was when Jack said, "Ennis, I wish I knew how to quit you!" And, "All we have is Brokeback Mountain!"

Of course Ennis turns morose, breaks down, and the two embrace in a hug. That scene really did something to me; although I'll never admit it in public...lol.

 

What I like about the film and the direction is that Ang Lee didn't set out to make a statement. He didn't try and prove that he was a revolutionary director bent on making society accept gay people(although the radical Christian Fundamentalists would have you believe otherwise). Ang Lee simply recognized a heart breaking story, and knew that it would pull on primal emotional heart strings.

 

Admittedly, I wanted it to do well just to show that gay people really can't control how they(we)feel about the same sex. The reunion kiss scene was my favorite simply because it showed the raw unbridled passion of two people in love. To quote the tagline, "Love is a force of nature."

 

Before I go, I loved the love scenes on Brokeback Mountain. Any scene with Jake Gyllenhaal semi nude or shirtless gets a thumbs up from me! lol

 

In Brokeback Mountain if these men weren't playing the role of gay men, they wouldn't be getting these award nominations. They are really acting. (I hope.) Sorry. I don't want Jake and Heath to be gay.

 

What if they were gay? Would it matter that much to you? I don't care whether or not Jake is gay(I don't really find Heath all that attractive...I mean I wouldn't turn him down if he asked me out either, heh), because it's not like I have any chance with him whatsoever. And if he were gay I would envy his boyfriend simply because he isn't me! lol. There are alot of straight actors out there(atleast I think they are)that I'm attracted to. However, it doesn't stop me from enjoying their work. They offer fantasy, no more no less.

Is it the fact that you think you could possibly have a chance with them that makes you hope they aren't gay?

[Jinx]

Heath Ledger & Jake Gyllenhaal - If all these posts teach me one thing it is, find out who they are. Heard of Heath Ledger somewhere but Jake Gyllenhaal? Nope. Can't say much between anyones hopes or dreams of them being Gay or Straight. I am of course neutral on this as they're men, but I really need to see who is who. Its odd talking about actors you don't know.

 

I think there are still a lot of male actors in Hollywood today who are in the closet, married and having kids for publicity, because the public doesn't know what to do with a leading "man" who is gay. Why is that? IMHO when most people pay about $8 to see a movie, they want to fantasize a little.

I do believe you answered your own question here. I can't remember who the guy was that came out, I think he was Bisexual but nonetheless who ever he was I remember the other girls at my age were obsessed and when they heard about this it seriously burst their bubble.

 

Anyhow this is our society. I think these kind of romance movies are a problem to our society anyhow in my personal opinion. Teens these days watch movies about the story book perfect romance that is so cute and wonderful, get their expectations so far up than when reality calls it smacks them over the head several times on the way down. They get an idea the boy always gets the girl. I suppose thats fine and dandy to some that have self constraint but there are teens I've worked with and heard that have serious complications because of programming. Certain girls are so convinced no matter what it will work out that they refuse to leave an abusive boyfriend. Others WILL leave their wonderful sweetheart of a guy because he isn't picking roses and serenading her at midnight but does everything else.

 

While everyone is on their wagon to ban violence and cigarettes from movies, I'll be on mine to ban romance movies for seriously mind altering content therein is contradictory to real life scenarios and thus proves damaging to the heads of certain youth which cannot dictate properly from fantasy and reality. Say that one ten times fast. Anyhow moving right along.

 

Nonetheless all in all this reminds me of a pet peeve near and dear to my heart, people look at an artist and say - They're ugly. - Music is beautiful but artist is ugly the refuse to buy the music and bash them. If it is a woman who doesn't dress just right, no matter how wonderful their music may be, the public plugs its ears and starts singing - La la la they don't look right so who cares, they're bad. One reason I never, ever look at an artist before I buy their music and rarely do I look at them there after. I may fall prey myself to this extreme annoyance. How is this pet peeve relevent? Because if he is an open and out gay man with proves difficult for society to swallow as being straight, they just won't watch it. If you can't imagine him chasing the woman, for many, it just isn't worth seeing the romance movie cause it can't happen.

 

If you're watching a hot guy passionately romance a woman, and then later learn that when the camera stops rolling he'd rather be with a man, it's a little disappointing

That, of course, depends what side of the fence you're on. Not really a blanket statement. Yes for straight women it may again burst their bubble, but for the gay man it may be the light of the day knowing so and so is gay afterall. It honestly depends, I understand that was coming from your viewpoint but had to add in this pointless nonsense of mine anyhow on it.

 

I do believe I am now officially offsubject with this post. Think it mighten be time for me to wander off somewhere else before disrupting any further.

[FoxLocke]

I hope Brokeback opens the door for more same sex love stories. Grant it, I would love to see more tenderness and a happy ending.

 

I remember watching one particular episode of "Cold Case(a cbs weekly series)" where the unsolved mystery was the skeletal remains of a young African American woman. It turns out that she was involved with a young white woman during the 1920's and 30's...

 

the story was told in flashbacks from the point of view of the white woman(played by Piper Laurie...Carrie's crazy fanatic mother in the stephen king movie). And that was probably one of my favorite episodes of a television show, ever. The tenderness portrayed between the two romantic leads was beautiful...Billy(the black girll)would recite poetry about her lover and etc...

 

Of course it had a tragic ending, but it did end happily on some note...

 

I really do hope that it opens the door for more same sex romances...And not stupid romantic comedies where the main gay characters are just trying to get laid and hanging around clubs, popping 'X'.

 

The only part of BrokeBack that I didn't understand was how did Jack know that Ennis would give into his advances? That was very bold. He could have risked ruining his reputation had Ennis rejected him...

And I don't get the anger and brutality in some of the scenes. I thought it was cute the way Jack tried to lasso Ennis, but then they get into a brawl? Perhaps ennis wanted to pretend it never happened? I don't know...

Anyway, my only complaint was that there weren't enough love scenes and not enough naked Jake scenes.

[pianoguy]

Heard of Heath Ledger somewhere but Jake Gyllenhaal? Nope.

 

Ach du lieber!!! *curses in German and Italian for a good 10 min* Ok, Gyllenhaal isn't that well known yet, but he's had enough movies out that most people have a vague idea of who he is... I'll let it slide this time and this time only.

 

Anyhow this is our society. I think these kind of romance movies are a problem to our society anyhow in my personal opinion. Teens these days watch movies about the story book perfect romance that is so cute and wonderful, get their expectations so far up than when reality calls it smacks them over the head several times on the way down. They get an idea the boy always gets the girl. I suppose thats fine and dandy to some that have self constraint but there are teens I've worked with and heard that have serious complications because of programming. Certain girls are so convinced no matter what it will work out that they refuse to leave an abusive boyfriend. Others WILL leave their wonderful sweetheart of a guy because he isn't picking roses and serenading her at midnight but does everything else.

 

Bah. *waves hand dismissively* There's definitely some truth to what you are saying, but I think that's an overreaction. Living in a fantasy world can be unhealthy, but part of growing up means being able to distinguish between fantasy and reality and being able to slide between the two. One of our jobs as adults is to help our children to distinguish the two by providing ample access to both worlds. A world with only realistic films would be pretty dull. We'd have no Harry Potter, no Lord of the Rings, no Gone With the Wind, etc.

 

Certainly there are people who struggle with this, and they need to be taught that, yes, this is only fantasy.

 

Nonetheless all in all this reminds me of a pet peeve near and dear to my heart, people look at an artist and say - They're ugly. - Music is beautiful but artist is ugly the refuse to buy the music and bash them. If it is a woman who doesn't dress just right, no matter how wonderful their music may be, the public plugs its ears and starts singing - La la la they don't look right so who cares, they're bad. One reason I never, ever look at an artist before I buy their music and rarely do I look at them there after. I may fall prey myself to this extreme annoyance.

 

I don't listen to pop music much (have you ever seen a picture of Horowitz? Pretty ugly...) but in certain circles it seems like the emphasis is more on the music- I have some friends who listen to indie type music and some of those artists are pretty gross. And in Classical music it doesn't matter one iota, I can assure you. You have to question whether the goal then is the music or something else, and if it really is the music, the appearance of the artist is usually irrelevant.

 

Because if he is an open and out gay man with proves difficult for society to swallow as being straight, they just won't watch it. If you can't imagine him chasing the woman, for many, it just isn't worth seeing the romance movie cause it can't happen

.

 

Those people are morons and I'm sure Ang Lee, Ledger, and Gyllenhaal couldn't care less about them.

 

I do believe I am now officially offsubject with this post. Think it mighten be time for me to wander off somewhere else before disrupting any further.

 

Not at all, this is actually much more interesting than my original post.

[Jinx]

Ach du lieber!!! *curses in German and Italian for a good 10 min* Ok, Gyllenhaal isn't that well known yet, but he's had enough movies out that most people have a vague idea of who he is... I'll let it slide this time and this time only.

Excuse my ignorance, went to google to have a peek and I know who he is. That is why I didn't have a clue, most people don't call him by his name I suppose, they speak more of the characters he plays. Heath Ledger, same difference. Have a better grasp now and know what movies they've been in. Glad I've been forgiven...this time.

 

A world with only realistic films would be pretty dull. We'd have no Harry Potter, no Lord of the Rings, no Gone With the Wind, etc.

 

Certainly there are people who struggle with this, and they need to be taught that, yes, this is only fantasy.

True, I honestly have no personal problems with a well done romance movie. I suppose I took this stance on an open viewpoint instead of a personal level like I should of done as well. I'm not much of a chick flick romance comedy type in most cases, but something serious and realistic like with romance is fine. It just seems more and more young individuals cannot dictate fantasy and reality and boost their standards way too high and then the rest of us end up with their problems one way or another. Just thinking there are those people out there that really need a Disclaimer about the material. For the rest of us, life goes on and we can enjoy a few hours of entertainment and realize it is that.

 

You have to question whether the goal then is the music or something else, and if it really is the music, the appearance of the artist is usually irrelevant.

I enjoy Alternative Rock myself and most would not fall under the true beauty queen title. Yet there are those which only seem to care about their looks instead of music. I don't believe I'm quite that shallow to put music on the basis of looks but it happens so often I think about not leading myself into any irrational temptations. Then again, like I say, if I based on looks I'd probably not have a single CD in the rack. Now that you've brought it up, I wonder about the goal of this then again. It is a good point to consider.

 

Those people are morons and I'm sure Ang Lee, Ledger, and Gyllenhaal couldn't care less about them.

Very true. Can't say much about the sort but it does happen. Society and its stereotypes, it'll be its own downfall one of these days if it hasn't to a degree already. So many individuals out that aren't open minded.

 

It does make me wonder though, when certain individuals protest seeing a movie because an open gay man is playing straight, yet for that same group, it isn't supposed to be an issue to us if we see straight men and women playing Gay or Lesbian roles. I don't think most of us would complain as we're able to logically understand this but there are those that I really wonder about.

 

I do need to get out and see the movie [brokeback Mountain] if it is still out and about around our local cinema lot, need to find the time to go. It is always such a zoo though when going to see movies, unless you go to one of the early day showings but doesn't work with my schedule.

 

If I see the movie then I can give my own short sweet analysis in a nutshell.

[RayKay]

I have not seen it yet, but wanted to say loved all your commentary (I knew the story so was not spoiled for me!)...I REALLY do want to see it, but it only recently came out in one theatre here, and I have a feeling I may have to wait a while to see it, though I am really looking forward to it.

 

I can already tell you I will bawl like a baby though...I'm a movie-crier! Heck even in King Kong I bawled the last half hour - and that was a love story where one half was not even real...just a giant CGI ape! I'll be bringing lots of tissues! Buy some stock in Kleenex all

 

Another question my girlfriend and I discussed on the long drive back: Why do people love sad movies, sad music, sad art, etc? What is it about heartbreak and sadness that is so intrinsically beautiful? Why do we shun sadness and seek happiness only?

 

I think it's because people can relate...it is a universal feeling no matter what the language or cultural differences - sadness is something we can empathize with, that touches our emotional self, and our soul. It is beautiful because it is raw, and pure, because it deepens our capacity for love.

 

I don't SHUN sadness, I don't think people do, I think they just prefer to live in happiness.....however sadness is part of the journey to that happiness, and my life has involved much sadness, and for me it's an accepted part of life, as painful as it is. For me it deepens the happiness that comes, in that I am more appreciative, thankful, and can live in it more readily. I do choose happiness over sadness though, definitely, for with sadness often comes loss - through death, or heartbreak, failure, and so forth, which I think most would rather not live with, despite the emotional gains that come from it.

[Prufrock06]

The only part of BrokeBack that I didn't understand was how did Jack know that Ennis would give into his advances? That was very bold. He could have risked ruining his reputation had Ennis rejected him...

And I don't get the anger and brutality in some of the scenes. I thought it was cute the way Jack tried to lasso Ennis, but then they get into a brawl? Perhaps ennis wanted to pretend it never happened? I don't know...

 

I don't think he did know for certain whether Ennis would give into his advances. At least, there are no clear signs given to the audience that Ennis feels for Jack in a similar way, I don't think, until after their relationship is consummated. I feel like Jack took just as much of a risk that evening in the tent as Ennis did -- although their risks are coming from two different points of view. For Jack, the risk is getting his affections rebuffed and for Ennis the risk is engaging in this relationship that his social and cultural background says is wrong enough that it warrants death (ie. when Ennis's father shows him and his brother the body of the rancher who was living with another rancher and was beaten to death).

 

Ennis seems to have more of an issue with the social pressures than Jack does -- at least, relatively speaking Jack appears more comfortable with his desires and his sexuality to the point where he can actually conceive of a life together with Ennis while Ennis can't ever grasp such an idea. The fact that Ennis gets physical with Jack (in a violent, not sexual sense) shows that he's not ready or even willing to completely embrace his relationship with Jack. As in, there's a point where the reality of what he's doing sets in and he has to reject it, despite the warmth Jack is ready and willing to provide.

 

I guess we could all learn something about taking risks in initiating relationships from Jack, huh? I know I could.

[metro_girl]

I thought the film glossed over what was happening in the '70s. Ennis was divorced. Why didn't he and Jake just move to San Fran? I don't think their feelings for each other were really explained or explored in depth, other than maybe Ennis was just in denial.

 

"The only part of BrokeBack that I didn't understand was how did Jack know that Ennis would give into his advances? That was very bold. He could have risked ruining his reputation had Ennis rejected him..."

 

Jack made advances at the cowboy in the bar also, when he offered to buy him a drink, and the cowboy turned him down.

 

 

"And I don't get the anger and brutality in some of the scenes. I thought it was cute the way Jack tried to lasso Ennis, but then they get into a brawl? Perhaps ennis wanted to pretend it never happened? I don't know...

Anyway, my only complaint was that there weren't enough love scenes and not enough naked Jake scenes."

 

 

What's the point of a man having sex with another man just like he would have sex with a woman? Why not just have sex with a woman? I thought the anger and brutality in some of the scenes was more realistic for these two characters who were supposed to be rough cowboys, than if they had tenderly embraced each other in their first experiences with one another. Where would those type of tender emotions even come from?

[FoxLocke]

What's the point of a man having sex with another man just like he would have sex with a woman? Why not just have sex with a woman? I thought the anger and brutality in some of the scenes was more realistic for these two characters who were supposed to be rough cowboys, than if they had tenderly embraced each other in their first experiences with one another. Where would those type of tender emotions even come from?

 

I totally disagree with you here. Even though I am gay I don't plan on getting punched in the face when I eventually indulge in a sexual relationship with my partner.

According to that logic men who like rough sex with females must really want to have it off with other guys(which is not always true)...

Sex is sex and it's supposed to feel good, not end in violence...unless you are into sadomasochism.

 

 

I'll agree with Prufrock here and say that Ennis was not ready to deal with the way he felt about Jack. And he probably got mad about Jack "making him" do something "he didn't want to."

[RayKay]

What's the point of a man having sex with another man just like he would have sex with a woman? Why not just have sex with a woman? I thought the anger and brutality in some of the scenes was more realistic for these two characters who were supposed to be rough cowboys, than if they had tenderly embraced each other in their first experiences with one another. Where would those type of tender emotions even come from?

 

I don't understand why they could NOT have tender emotions just because they are "rough cowboys"???

 

Sex does not follow some "formula" as in match up man + woman = tender, or man + man = rough, or woman + woman = sweet and romantic.

 

Sexual chemistry is different for EVERY couple, and every person has their own sexual "personality". I am straight, but not every time I have sex with my partner it is going to be tender and slow, there are times it is rougher, because we both enjoy that and consent to it.

 

And just because one's "exterior" personality is rough, or soft, does not mean that will be how they are behind closed doors, or reflect their emotional selves. I know plenty of "rough" men and women whom cry after sex as it is so emotional for them, and I know plenty of sweet, almost virginal women, whom will ask their partner to whip them harder in some more profane ways!

 

As Fox said, sex is supposed to feel GOOD, and what constitutes feeling good will be different for EVERYone and EVERY couple, but there is no way that there is a "way it should be done" according to the sex's of the people involved!

[pianoguy]

I guess we could all learn something about taking risks in initiating relationships from Jack, huh? I know I could.

 

I dunno... I mean, the whole thing seemed to be largely fueled by alcohol. There've been times that I've been in the incredibly awkward position of sleeping with my crush before, and there's no way in h*** I'd do what Jack did. We all thought for a split second that Ennis was going to literally kill him, and he very well might have in other circumstances.

 

I think it was almost Ennis who initiated the relationship in some ways. The sodomy scene could well have been the result of very drunk, horny, isolated, lonely straight men. It was the next night, when Ennis realized he wanted more, and crawled into the tent and made out with Jack in more loving fashion. Of course, Jack made that possible by being so open and sweet... sigh...

 

I know I get tired of analyzing every situation to death without ever doing anything... sometimes I think I should just make a pass at someone and bear the burden of what happens. I won't ever do this, it's not in my personality, whether its cowardice or wisdom that prevents me I don't know. Sometimes the crazy little kid in me just wants to do something completely bizarre and ridiculous and stupid though.

[metro_girl]

For me, and maybe for the writer and the film director, it would have seemed odd if the two rough cowboys had embraced gently and softly for their first sexual encounter. Have you ever watched young men rough-housing together, minus the sexual tension? They sometimes start out where they're playing around, and then they can end up pounding on each other in a "brawl". I used to teach junior high and high school, and young men punch each other on the shoulder, smack each other, etc. without any anger or brutality, just joking around with each other, and sometimes it turns rough. Their show of emotions can sometimes change on a dime. Aren't Ennis and Jack supposed to be young men in the opening scenes? Just IMHO.

[RayKay]

Finally saw it this weekend!

 

Thought it was slower at sometimes, and then a bit smushed together at same time (ie the 4 years before they saw one another again, or they went from smooth skinned, young, to moustached and wrinkled...a couple months in camp turned was gone like that) but the essense of it was there. The story was easily one that could be for any other "lovers whom cannot be together". Although affairs in themselves are hardly romantic, the struggle to be together when you can't be - either due to social stigma or family, or whatever - is one that is very relatable to many.

 

I think the performances were excellent by all involved. It really showed the pain of loving someone whom could not love back (ie Michelle Williams), the longing to see one another again, the inability to be together - unrequited love (the love WAS there, but Ennis could not go further with it as Jack wanted), the emotional distance that can happen even in marriages...and the need to hide it, even at the end (Ennis' reaction to his ex wifes questions, on the phone to Jack's wife when he found out the death (I did find it interesting how the film flashed to the scene of his death without ever saying if that was what really happened, or if it was just what Ennis imagined to the viewers more concretely...), the stoicism he showed when he went to Jack's parents and Jack's father spoke of the "new guy" Jack had talked about before his death).

 

Of course, a few tears were shed at the end...the fact he turns the shirts around and keeps them just gets to me....affair or not, it was pretty apparent in the context of it, there was no other way for them to have what they had, it has to be put in the context of not just the times it took place in, but also the culture. As Ennis himself knew, to not marry, and be caught with your "buddy", was certain death. Jack was willing to risk it, it seems his parents knew though his father was pretty "hard" they were not blind to it all, so maybe he felt less risk for him, but for Ennis, he knew what happened to those that were labelled.

 

Yes, the initial scenes were "aggressive" but my guess was at least for Ennis, that was a way of sorts to distance himself from it, to not be gay. He was resistant to the idea in his head, and even would continue to deny it for a while, but it was also pretty clear he felt great love and passion for Jake (reunion, mementos, the excitement he had each time Jake came through town).

 

Overall, well worth it...despite some of the less strong parts of the movie (the flow for me as said was a bit haphazard), the acting was brilliant, and I truly could believe it, and feel for ALL the characters...they were each their own "capsule of life" and it was interesting to see how they all lived either knowingly (Ennis' wife) or not (Jack's wife....it was never clear if she knew, though at the end in that call you had to wonder, and with her questions about the fishing trips) with Jack & Ennis' relationship.

[FoxLocke]

Yes, the initial scenes were "aggressive" but my guess was at least for Ennis, that was a way of sorts to distance himself from it, to not be gay. He was resistant to the idea in his head, and even would continue to deny it for a while, but it was also pretty clear he felt great love and passion for Jake (reunion, mementos, the excitement he had each time Jake came through town).

 

 

I agree. I saw the film again over the weekend I was fully able to comprehend the subtle nuances. The scene was very intense due to Ennis' confusion and ambivalence about actually having to acknowledge his feelings.

 

But, had Jack lassoed me I would have gone willingly! There would have been no fisticuffs. =) Jake Gyllenhaal is so beautiful.

[EnglishSilver]

 

The only part of BrokeBack that I didn't understand was how did Jack know that Ennis would give into his advances? That was very bold. He could have risked ruining his reputation had Ennis rejected him...

And I don't get the anger and brutality in some of the scenes.

 

 

I went to see the film yesterday, and loved it, glad to see lots of straight people there too. Re the above quote, I haven't read the book,so don't know whether the film just didn't get accross any build-up of chemistry and sexual tension between the men prior to the first sex scene, or whether there wasn't supposed to be any. Personally I would have liked that to have been more obvious because then you're really rooting for them to get it together and the sodomy scene might then have appeared passionate rather than aggressive. Maybe thats just cos I'm romantic lol.

I did think both the characters were gay, but different personality and upbringing made their reactions very different. Ennis had been shown that awful scene of the dead gay guy by his father as some sort of warning. Although Jack's father clearly didnt approve, Jack had been able to be relatively open with his parents. I could identify much more with Jack's personality, willing to drive hundreds of miles, and to make his wish to be with Ennis more important than all the problems they might face. Ennis seemed much better able to shut his feelings off and put self preservation first seemingly able to handle causing pain to people who loved him, probably because he had learnt to this as a boy, losing each family member one at a time.

All in all I thought it an excellent film, and did shed a few tears as did the very butch * * * * in the seat in front of me!

[EnglishSilver]

Oh dear, Ive been asterisked out! I don't find that term in the least rude or derogeratory, I think its an empowering term to describe a lesbian, but sorry if I offended anyone.

[metro_girl]

Thanks for letting me hop onto your forum to participate in this thread. Did any of you see the interview with the Brokeback Mountain cast members on Oprah this past week? Maybe this is just me and Hollywood gossip, but do you think Heath Ledger hooked up with his female co-star (Michelle Williams who played his on-screen wife) and had a baby just to prove he wasn't gay? Sorta like Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes? I'm not saying that either of those actors is gay. I've never met them and I don't know. It just seems like movie stars are hooking up for publicity stunts.

 

Jake and Heath in the interview both said they are straight. Sorry guys.

[lilsmc]

i just came back from seeing broke back mountain, and i really thought it was a great movie!!! i felt very sad for them...because they couldnt show their love to one another freely!!!! they were defenitly a match made in heaven they are both also sooooooo hot!!