wish girls would be more assertive

[Shidoshi]

It IS a top priority (or rather important), why must we argue semantics? I'm not speaking on her behalf, you make assumptions about what I mean and I do the same. We all do, this a public forum for crying out loud. We both "generalize" about everything, how can we not? You insist on turning everything I say about sex into some kind of obsession. I said it is a top priority, meaning, if it isn't happening, there's going to be problems (for women also). For you it may not be, fine, that's you, and you do not make up the majority.

 

Do I have to have a disclaimer for every single generalization I make? The argument never goes anywhere because you keep picking apart concepts without looking at the whole picture.

 

If you MEANT to say "managed" but you didn't right? This is a moot point.

 

Key word here, "minority."

 

I did no such thing, you made this into in issue simply because I said men want to sleep with attractive women. Funny how I can make a simple statement (not this one) and have you pick at it's surface, but now I'm the one who distracts attention from "deeper" elements?

 

Read your statement, and realize how absurd it was. No guy who has enjoyed the pleasures of sex would make such an outlandish comment. Wanting to have sex with a woman you find physically attractive who isn't crazy is nothing at all to be ashamed of. That's why I said what I said, it has nothing to do with "why" you're a virgin.

 

I figured it was plainly obvious, but you would rather react emotionally than logically, almost like a......... Sorry, I had to throw that in there for kicks.

 

Too bad mother nature is such a strong driving force, without her life would be so much easier right? We'd all be living happily married, fulfilling lives.

 

Lets get some opinions DN, explain your thoughts, that's what this place is for right?

 

I guess this forum is home to a certain breed of guys who are afraid of facing the realities and hardships that come with having to "compete" for the best things in life.

[corvidae]

If you want a relationship where sex is the main focus, then I think that's fine as long as the the other person agrees. As with so many things in life sex is what you make it. For some it is a magical, fantastical act that you do to connect with someone on a spiritual and physical level, for some it's just a bit of fun. A lot of people hold an inbetween view. The important thing is to never mislead your partner AND (talking to some people on this forum now) not to go around imposing your view on other people and telling them they are if they disagree. Sex is a very natural part of life and most, not ALL but MOST, people find it an important part of their lives.

 

Enjoying or wanting sex does not make you a pervert or shallow, it is not evil and it is not a sin (unless you're religeous, but then those are YOUR beliefs and while you have the right to stick to them you don't have the right to inflict them on others who don't want them). Being found attractive (and it could be argued sex is the ultimate expression of attraction) is very important to the majority of people. People can often suffer from depression, body dysmorphic disorder and other psychological issues due to the absense of positive reinforcement.

 

This brings me back to a point which I think women often forget, and that is men need to feel attractive too. When we do all the chasing and are expected to make all the moves, it is hard to feel attractive. When a woman is approached she is made to feel attractive, but when do men get to feel good about themselves? A little positive reinforcement given every now and then by women would make the world a happier place I think Now who can disagree with that?

[corvidae]

Let me know if I am wrong, but most men dont just go around asking girls out that they dotn even really know. Guys who do probably do very well for themselves, but in my lifetime I have only been asked out by someone I barely knew maybe 10 times. All my relationships have been with men who were not so brave.

 

That's what I like about women. They use expressions like 'I've only been asked out by a stranger ten times.' Ten times! Not including people you knew!! I'd like to be asked out once. By anyone

 

There are so many ways guys get around this like getting involved in groups or going to bars where you will see the same girls over and over... becoming friends just happens... and then asking her out is not so official.

 

Alas, were it that simple! As guys we'd still have to make the first move, and knowing the person can make it worse. Eg. I was in a theater group for ages, and one thing that put me off asking people out was that this group was a big part of my life, and if I crashed and burned then everyone would know, and I'd have to keep seeing these people, there'd be no escape!

 

The truth is it sucks to be the girl too because we have just as many questions about you guys. It just sucks for everyone.

 

True, we all know that women have troubles too! But I think this thread, by its nature, concerns itself with the initial first move and getting someone to date you in the first place. All the other troubles that come with relationships can be found on other threads

[Shinobie]

For the most part, men want women they can enjoy sex with, if she's relatively attractive and not a psycho that would pretty much satisfy a lot of men (whether or not the guys on this forum will admit it).

 

Sigh... if thats the case, men are scum and a disgrace. Most men want more, rather or not you want to admit it.

 

Okay, before I thought you were just extremely naively idealistic and just a slight genetic deviant from most people, but now I see you are simply in self-denial or are a normal person having kicks by pretending to be a guy in self denial on the internet if you really say that men are scum for wanting an attractive non-psycho woman who is not unenjoyable whle having sex.

 

Have fun with your psycho unattractive women!

 

Wow asdf u have to put down the women we like?Cause maybe they hold morals or act a lot better like we do.I know we put down some of the women out there but ya.If they are unattractive too you they can still be good at sex in the fun type of way for people who like that or people like how they are on the inside and when u do it when u truly love them.But see you are just to shallow to look beyond the looks and the person she really is on the inside.Well hey asdf.Like i have said if you have a very attractive face to females.O and btw dont jump out and put down me right away cause i did have girils giving me attention in middle school like turning around and talking to me and i did get phone numbers so maybe i can bring out an attraction for women in me but iono.Ahh why am i defending myself you'll put down that but ahh who cares many people try to put down others to feel good about themselvesGuess what u did nothing for it at all so u have no right to brag or put down other people and call them ugly.U were born that way and i dont see the right to brag or put down people when those people did nothing for it dude.How the heck are these women pyscho dude?Whenever u try and bash are points u bring up the "o shes psycho" or the "Oh shes unattractive comment!".What are quite possibly bad about these girls when they good thoughts man just their looks to you because you underestimate the power of a kind unattractive girl too you and what truly is there.When shysoul is saying that girl is the most beautiful girl in the world to him.He is meaning that she is extremely beutiful on the inside and that what can make her so beautiful on outside too or thats how it can be too me.And i dont mind im rdy for all the comments "like your ugly" and or the famous "your a virgin what do u know" if u havent used them already.

[northernlights]

This brings me back to a point which I think women often forget, and that is men need to feel attractive too. When we do all the chasing and are expected to make all the moves, it is hard to feel attractive. When a woman is approached she is made to feel attractive, but when do men get to feel good about themselves? A little positive reinforcement given every now and then by women would make the world a happier place I think Now who can disagree with that?

 

Corvidae, I completely agree with you. As a woman, I KNOW that I should make more initial moves towards men. In fact, I try to force myself to do this a lot because I know I won't be chased forever if I don't chase back. Yet, as a woman, I also worry that if I make a move, I will appear clingy (in all honesty, this is one of a woman's top worries when courting a man!) or that the man will lose interest because now he has "caught me". I know I know, games suck and I hate them myself, but when I like a guy, I don't want him to lose interest in me just because I showed some back! My ex-boyfriend used to be like that. He kept chasing me and complaining that I didn't return enough emotion (I have the world's best poker face) but when I finally returned, he just sat back and stopped trying. Bleh.

 

In addition, I'm just plain shy when I genuinely like a guy! Around men I'm not attracted to, I can say whatever I want. Around men I think are attractive but may not like, the same is true. But when I develop feelings for a guy, I'm completely tongue-tied unless he speaks to me first.

 

If you want to feel attractive too and the girl you're "courting" is shy or worries about making the first move, try looking for her subtle signs. We're INFAMOUS for our subtley. Look for her smile. Look at her flirting. Look at how she "innocently" grazes your shoulder (believe me, that was intentional!). Look at how she talks to you more than anyone else. Look at how she chooses to sit next to YOU when there are other places to sit.

 

You see, these sublte signs are a girl's way of making her initial move. It's our way of saying: "hey baby, what's your sign?"

[corvidae]

Well, that was a very informative post that raised several interesting points. I've often heard women worry about coming accross and clingy and needy and putting men off, but is the answer really to stop approaching men altogether? Surely the way in which you approach is important too? A 'move' doesn't have to be throwing yourself at the feet of the nearest man! You can be subtle. There's nothing desperate, needy or clingy about just saying hello, initiating a conversation on an interesting topic and so on...

 

I really do think it's an old wives tale that men get put off by women taking the initiative, I love it, and I know a lot of other guys who do as well I think that you hear in the media that guys like to be wolves who hunt their prey, and that they love the chase! Well, I suppose some men do. But a lot don't. Otherwise we wouldn't have these forums would we!! Most polls show that the majority of men would like women to be more forward, yet you still hear women say that men are put off by forward women... I think this is just a convenient excuse for women not to try. I don't blame women at all, approaching someone is difficult, and we always look for reasons not to do things we're scared of.

 

In the end it's a bit like fishing. You use a particular bait to catch a particular fish. If you want men who act like aggressive predators, then act passive. But remember, not ALL, or even MOST, men are like this. If you want a guy who is more into balance in a relationship, you will have to make your share of the effort. In the end you use the bait to catch what fish you want.

 

We're INFAMOUS for our subtley. Look for her smile. Look at her flirting. Look at how she "innocently" grazes your shoulder (believe me, that was intentional!). Look at how she talks to you more than anyone else. Look at how she chooses to sit next to YOU when there are other places to sit.

 

 

LOL. The problem with signals is that they are subtle. Women don't seem to realise but they often give off the SAME signals when they are just being friendly. You can take any of those silly lists about what body language a woman uses when she's interested and give at least two alternative explanations for each 'sign'. Eg. woman in a bar looks up and holds your eye contact. Good? Well maybe, but then maybe it's dark and you look like someone she knows. Maybe she's looking at something just behind you. Maybe she thinks you look a bit dodgy and is making a mental reference in case she needs to give a description to the police

 

I think us men can all think of examples where a woman gave off strong signals, only for it to turn out that she was just being friendly!

[asdf]

Well if your girlfriend is that beautiful and not psycho, then that must mean by your former statement that you'd be scum for ever wanting to enjoy having sex with her. Just as well

 

Not scum... more like mildew...

 

Seriously now, the guy being scum is about them looking at the relationship as a way of getting sex. It's when they look at sex as a top priority. I am looking at love as being the priority, sex is merely a manifestation, a declaration of that love. I wouldn't have sex with her because she is attractive or beautiful. Sex would be once we get to the point where we are truly in love and vow to spend our lives together. Then I'll enjoy sex, not because of the sex, but because of the connection and bond we have, the love that is between us. And when I say she is that beautiful, its her heart and spirit that really makes her beautiful, illuminating an already wonderful exterior.

 

If that makes me scum, ok then. But at least I'm romantic scum.

 

Nobody said that sex was the only thing a man wanted a woman before. What was said was that most men would like an attractive mentally balanced woman who they can enjoy sex with. Of course, you took the comment as another way to put down men in general except for "different" guys like yourself.

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

The guy is the one who should be the assertive one. He needs to take a leadership role. If you are a guy, then you have to be the leader.

[corvidae]

I think we heard you the first time rain_hugs_you

I think there's different levels of assertiveness, and people aren't necessarily asking the women be as assertive as men, just to make more effort than they currently do.

 

Also, a lot of men are shy or not confident with women. It is very very easy to tell them to 'change' but very very hard to actually do. You may as well tell and an anorexic they aren't fat and expect them to be cured! These people (men) can often become very frustrated as on the one hand society makes them feel unattractive and on the other hand society demands they be confident. It is wrong to assume these people are weak or socially awkward. Some of these people are very strong in many aspects of life, but for some reason or another have no confidence in their ability with women.

 

I think as time goes on women will start to be more willing to share the burden. At the moment the generation of our mothers would have been shocked at the idea of a woman making any kind of move, and these women now give advice to their daughters based on these outmoded ideas. As the women of today grow up, and they pass on their advice to their daughters, attitudes will change.

[Msnak]

I think the self-talk we all have--guys and girls alike--is one of the biggest factors in stopping us from saying what we want to say.

 

We have ideas--many from society, family and friends--that are usually wrong and make us scared, make us doubt ourselves.

 

So, we have all this input, self-talk and we're trying to be CSI-like and gather information from verbal and non-verbal clues. It's enough to make anyone crazy and keep us all single.

 

Seriously, if we could sort out the thoughts in our heads--that would help, but time doesn't stop, so we have to make a move at the moment. We don't have the future or the past, really, we have now.

 

So, if everyone could move beyond the innane thoughts we have, everything would be better. But no, we're human, our minds are too complex and we will always have a combination of the following thoughts when it comes to relationships:

 

Am I handsome? am I fat? am I smart? Will he be mad if I call? Is she too attached this soon? Is this 'the one'?

[Alabama]

But sometimes it is better to think over something. To try to figure out if you should ask that certain someone out. If you were to rush into something, without thinking, or just go for it, it could have disaterous results. And if society does keep with the 'man asks the girl out', it could be a long time before you start to see a good number of girls being assertive. Not to say there aren't girls who aren't assertive, but there are probably more men who are assertive than woman. But who knows what the future holds?

[Shidoshi]

Waiting for things to change is only going to bring you heartache.

 

The problem lies in the fact that the women who complain about being rejected when they made the first move is that they "usually" approach guys who aren't all that interested in them in the first place. They know there are guys out there who they could approach and they'd be eaten alive. However, they don't want those guys, they want something they aren't sure about, a challenge of sorts. It works both ways, guys who complain want women to be more obvious about their level of interest because they don't want to be turned down. They want a guarantee, but guess what? You aren't going to get it. Even if you succeed in getting a phone number, you still have more ahead of you, a LOT more.

 

Look at life as a whole, the mating game is always going to be around. It takes guts, confidence, all that good stuff to get beyond rejection. That's what turns women on, they want a guy who takes risks, rejection is a form of risk. When you concern yourself too much about rejection you lose sight of the larger picture, and you'll never live up to your full potential. Don't ask people to change for YOU, rather make some adjustments in yourself and get out there and go after what you want.

[corvidae]

So essentially, what you're saying is, that if a guy has any self-doubt then he won't be able to ever have relationships with women? Doesn't this system exclude men who have some physical problem? Someone with a deformity, disfigurement or who is just plain ugly isn't like to feel very confident. In fact this is true. Women with physical 'defects' have far more chance than men of finding partners, despite the so-called 'fact' that men are more shallow. I know some people with body dysmorphic disorder (BDD) and in fact the women often have partners, whereas the men almost never do. You can say that things are the way they are and that we have to accept them, but I don't think this situation is either right nor fair. I also think that with adequate communication we can make things better. Call me an optimist.

[Shidoshi]

So essentially, what you're saying is, that if a guy has any self-doubt then he won't be able to ever have relationships with women?

Not necessarily, but it can be a big hinderance depending on how you deal with your insecuritites.

Doesn't this system exclude men who have some physical problem? Someone with a deformity, disfigurement or who is just plain ugly isn't like to feel very confident.

You're right, that's also why you don't see a whole lot of these people among the general population. That's why I've argued with people who say that looks don't matter. They do, especially when nothing is physically wrong or abnormal with you personally, you wouldn't be honestly considering people with deformities as potential mates.

In fact this is true. Women with physical 'defects' have far more chance than men of finding partners, despite the so-called 'fact' that men are more shallow. I know some people with body dysmorphic disorder (BDD) and in fact the women often have partners, whereas the men almost never do. You can say that things are the way they are and that we have to accept them, but I don't think this situation is either right nor fair. I also think that with adequate communication we can make things better. Call me an optimist.

You make some excellent points, you should post more often man. These are the things I think about. However, wouldn't it be fair to say that unfairness is a part of life? I don't think things will ever be fair. You have to have good and bad (yin/yang). It's like people need some type of "measurement." Would a bodybuilder feel proud about the muscular physique he's built if everyone else looked the same, or they could achieve such a body with minimal effort? How would we behave if physical beauty didn't stimulate us? We'd probably focus more on character and a particualr individual's behaviors.

 

Good post.

[corvidae]

Well Shidoshi, that was a very interesting post! It certainly got me thinking. You know, I'm going to have to agree with you in that life isn't fair and that a part of life is coping with what are forced to do without. I am forced to come to conclusion that for some men (and I say men because I don't think this is such a big problem for women) simply have to deal with the fact they aren't ever going to be successful with women unless they a) undergo a massive personality change (in which case they are then no longer the person they once were or b) undergo some physical change, if a physical deformity was the original problem.

 

I suppose that the world needs balance, so on the one hand you need people with great bodies and great confidence who are successful with the opposite sex and you also need to have people who have no chance!

 

I agree looks are very important. Ironically, I think that looks are far more important to your success if you are a man. I'm not saying women are MORE shallow, but they have a lot more choice, as men approach them. Also since men are supposed to do the approaching, if you are not good looking then you won't have the confidence to approach hence you never get anywhere. Before you disagree with me I sugest you go look on any forum for people with disfigurements (link removed the emotional forum is good) and see all the men (but not women) without partners.

 

So what can we conclude? It seems that the best advice to give to a lot of the men on this forum (including myself here) that can't get women is not to tell them to try harder, but to tell them that they must learn to deal with the idea that in the great balance of the world they are the men that have to do without. It's the same as with anything. For example, I've got a great job lined up, but in order for me to be successful and wealthy, other people need to have much worse jobs, because in the end we need them.

[northernlights]

I agree looks are very important. Ironically, I think that looks are far more important to your success if you are a man. I'm not saying women are MORE shallow, but they have a lot more choice, as men approach them. Also since men are supposed to do the approaching, if you are not good looking then you won't have the confidence to approach hence you never get anywhere. Before you disagree with me I sugest you go look on any forum for people with disfigurements (link removed the emotional forum is good) and see all the men (but not women) without partners.

 

Corvidae, that's really interesting. I like being able to look at things from different points of view, such as yours.

 

You see, I've always thought that looks are far more important to your success if you are WOman. I'm not discrediting you at all...I'm sure it works both ways depending on the perspective of the viewer, but this is a common topic girls like to whine about. We see gorgeous girls with average men, and wonder why it can't be the other way around. Yet, now that I think about it, I've also seen gorgeous men with average girls. And I agree that it's easier for a girl to look more attractive by using makeup, changing her hair and clothes, etc. than it is for a guy to. (Of course, confidence still works wonders on men, though I have to admit confidence can be hard to acquire)

 

Seriously though, you should come to my all female college sometime. Haha! You'll find plenty of beautiful ladies who wonder why they can't find any men.

[SkyFire]

I agree looks are very important. Ironically, I think that looks are far more important to your success if you are a man. I'm not saying women are MORE shallow, but they have a lot more choice, as men approach them. Also since men are supposed to do the approaching, if you are not good looking then you won't have the confidence to approach hence you never get anywhere. Before you disagree with me I sugest you go look on any forum for people with disfigurements (link removed the emotional forum is good) and see all the men (but not women) without partners.

 

I disagree. For a man, the CHARACTER is most important. You do gain alot from looks, but still it is the character and the personality that makes all the difference. If looks were more important, you wouldn't see chubby, not-so-good looking men with model girlfriends. If you look at those guys closer, you will see they have certain traits that attract females that are more vital then looks.

[corvidae]

Firstly, to Northernlights, thank you for your comments. I always find debates like this a wonderful way to get the opinion and perspectives of the opposite sex. To answer your final point about there being plenty of beautiful girls that can't get guys, are you sure you don't mean that they can't get the guys they want? I ask because my housemate Katherine always complained about not being able to get a man and she was asked out quite regularly, what she meant was that she couldn't get the perfect man I don't think I've ever met a woman who literally couldn't get a man, even my overweight female friends with moustaches had men chase them

 

To Skyfire I would say that perhaps I didn't make my point clearly enough. Character is important in both men and women, but a persons character is partly dependent on how they feel about themselves. Men with self-doubt often can't get women because they don't feel good enough about themselves. When I talk about this I'm talking very much from personal experience. Honestly, go to any site on the internet about physical problems and you'll find that most if not all the men are single, but the women will often have partners. Go have a look now, it's a real eye-opener.

 

Lastly, this business about average guys with hot women, well these guys are most likely wealthy. Besides, take a look around the next time you're out and I'm sure you'll see plenty of nice looking guys with not so nice looking women.

[Shidoshi]

I am forced to come to conclusion that for some men (and I say men because I don't think this is such a big problem for women) simply have to deal with the fact they aren't ever going to be successful with women unless they a) undergo a massive personality change (in which case they are then no longer the person they once were or b) undergo some physical change, if a physical deformity was the original problem.

Would you agree that change can be very good sometimes? Take personality for instance. If you're having consistent problems with women obviously something about you is running them off. You have two choices in this case. A) You can continue to behave the same way and keep going after women until you find one who will accept you, or B) you can look deeper (self-analysis), which can also include asking for advice, and try and recognize "patterns" or behaviors that affect your relationships. Then make necessary adjustments that you can "incorporate" so that you can still be who you are, but better able to get desired results.

 

With choice A you may have to go through many many women in order to find the right one (which can be a daunting task), but with choice B, you can minimize your efforts and maximize your results at the same time.

I suppose that the world needs balance, so on the one hand you need people with great bodies and great confidence who are successful with the opposite sex and you also need to have people who have no chance!

Basically, can the good exist without the bad?

I agree looks are very important. Ironically, I think that looks are far more important to your success if you are a man. I'm not saying women are MORE shallow, but they have a lot more choice, as men approach them. Also since men are supposed to do the approaching, if you are not good looking then you won't have the confidence to approach hence you never get anywhere. Before you disagree with me I sugest you go look on any forum for people with disfigurements (link removed the emotional forum is good) and see all the men (but not women) without partners.

You're right that women will always have more partners (or require minimal effort in obtaining more partners), but I honestly don't think appearance affects a mans chances any more than it does a womans in general. I always hear about how guys place more importance on looks than women, but I just don't see it in reality. Most couples I see are very similar in physical attractiveness, despite the exceptions that are out there, an ugly guy does not have his choice of women unless he's got something else extraordinary about himself that attracts women.

 

Just like you pointed out with your roomate. Even overweight women are approached by guys. However, none of these guys are going to look like Brad Pitt (I get tired of using him as an example, but he's an easy reference).

So what can we conclude? It seems that the best advice to give to a lot of the men on this forum (including myself here) that can't get women is not to tell them to try harder, but to tell them that they must learn to deal with the idea that in the great balance of the world they are the men that have to do without. It's the same as with anything. For example, I've got a great job lined up, but in order for me to be successful and wealthy, other people need to have much worse jobs, because in the end we need them.

My take on this is you have to go after what you want, regardless. There will always be the successful and unsuccessful, but that doesn't mean you should concede and just let things fall into place. Be proactive, you only live once right?

 

The only problem I see with you is your self-defeating attitude. Dude, I could see you with some very decent chicks, but you aren't putting yourself out there. You've even been complimented on your looks from women on this forum, there's nothing at all wrong with your appearance.

 

I'm 5'5" and I weigh 120 lbs. I'm a skinny guy, but I'm in shape. I've spent about 2 years so far working out in a gym and I've put on muscle. Granted, I'm still a small guy because I have a small frame, but I try and make the most of what I got. I had women before and after I hit the gym, hell I still have acne, it's not as bad as it used to be because I'm treating it, but it's still there. I'll be honest, a fair amount of women have been attracted to me because of my face, but that doesn't mean they'll approach me, I still have to ask them out and "initiate."

 

You may even be experiencing what some attractive guys go through, which is women who are "shy" around you. You may misinterpret their body language as being something negative, but it could mean the opposite. I remember one time I was buying groceries and the cashier (young girl) would greet every customer, no matter what ethnicity, age, etc. When it was my turn she immediately looked down and wouldn't make eye contact with me, even when she gave me my change, she just held out her hand and said absolutely nothing. I was offended at first because I didn't understand it at the time. I would soon learn that these behaviors are common among women who like you.

 

It's very possible that this is the case with you, except you aren't approaching the women to find out. Do you ask women out?

[corvidae]

Firstly let's not make this about me. I have no desire for advice, though I know that you mean to help and thank you for your effort. I've been me for quite some time now and I like myself and don't want to change. I am willing to accept the price for that.

 

I agree with what you say about looks. I think that people of similar attractiveness go with each other, and that finding a very attractive man/woman with a much less attractive woman/man is the exception rather than the rule, and that there will other factors besides looks which you won't know about. My point about looks was mainly that in order for a man to be successful with women he has to consider himself good-looking because he needs to be confident enough to approach. A man who is unattractive will more often than not simply not approach anyone. Perhaps he is unattractive, maybe he is actually good-looking but doesn't realise it, the point is if he doesn't feel good about himself, he has no hope.

 

My housemate Katherine wasn't the overweight one with a moustache, that was someone else. The one with the moustache had several men that I knew of approach her, and they weren't ugly. I think they probably were frightened of rejection and so went for a less attractive woman as they thought she might be less fussy. The writer Bill Bryson says in one of his books that he would go for the 'ugliest' girl in the club to improve his chances. Men talk big about how they want Britney Spears or Jessica Alba, but in real life men are much less fussy than women and much more willing to settle rather than be single.

[Shidoshi]

My point about looks was mainly that in order for a man to be successful with women he has to consider himself good-looking because he needs to be confident enough to approach. A man who is unattractive will more often than not simply not approach anyone. Perhaps he is unattractive, maybe he is actually good-looking but doesn't realise it, the point is if he doesn't feel good about himself, he has no hope.

Yes, if you don't feel confident that you can get a woman, it will severly hurt your game, but it doesn't make it an impossible task. There are women out there who will except you (not you specifically, though it does apply to you) but how will a guy ever find her if he doesn't put any effort into it?

My housemate Katherine wasn't the overweight one with a moustache, that was someone else. The one with the moustache had several men that I knew of approach her, and they weren't ugly. I think they probably were frightened of rejection and so went for a less attractive woman as they thought she might be less fussy. The writer Bill Bryson says in one of his books that he would go for the 'ugliest' girl in the club to improve his chances. Men talk big about how they want Britney Spears or Jessica Alba, but in real life men are much less fussy than women and much more willing to settle rather than be single.

I can see this, absolutely. A friend of mine (21 I believe) is with a woman who's more than twice his age. I know why he's with her, although he hasn't come out and said it, I know he isn't confident in himself because he's overweight and other factors. This woman literally looks like his mother (she's a drinker/smoker too, beer gut, etc.), and it's weird knowing they have this kind of relationship. I always try and encourage him to try for girls closer to his age but he's become too comfortable as both him and this woman depend on each other. He even comments about younger girls' bodies as if they aren't good enough (which is an excuse not to try for them because I've told you what 'his' woman looks like). This isn't bad in and of itself, but who do you think is going to suffer in the long run? I guess I'm starting to rant here, but yes, I agree with you. However, I still believe that the only people that are "picky" (men and women) can afford to be. If the woman you described were too picky, she'd be just as lonely as the guys who don't approach women at all. I think everyone at some point "settles" but it's not a bad thing if you gain companionship with someone and you feel loved.

Firstly let's not make this about me. I have no desire for advice, though I know that you mean to help and thank you for your effort. I've been me for quite some time now and I like myself and don't want to change. I am willing to accept the price for that.

I know you don't want advice, but I'm curious, why would you be willing to except your current situation if it's not what you want? You're still a young guy, why do you want to give up so easily?

[corvidae]

I know you don't want advice, but I'm curious, why would you be willing to except your current situation if it's not what you want? You're still a young guy, why do you want to give up so easily?

 

Well! That's a loaded question! Firstly I don't think I've given up easily. It's not like I don't go out, or that I now sit at home in the dark, quietly sobbing. I live my life as full as I can, it's just I'm trying to learn to be happy with what I have rather than want I think I need. I made effort with women, asking them out, for a few years, but with no real success. To really understand where I'm coming from I'd have to describe my life so far, and there's no time or space for that! But let's just say that my school years left me quite angry, and because of the way I was treated by girls (ignored or laughed at) I felt very very ugly and horrible. I spent many years feeling alone and depressed thinking I was disfigured, and there was a point in my life when I needed very badly for someone to tell me I wasn't as horrible as I thought, I needed someone to find me attractive, but it never happened and I got a little worse. That's why I always say on these forums how men need positive reinforcement too, because women just saw me as a 'man' and all they wanted was for men to make them feel good, but it should work both ways. It's been a long time, but I feel OK now, I feel like I can enjoy life anyway. It's difficult to explain, but a lot of my life has been about hoping, and striving and conflict, and now I'm tired and just want some peace and contentment.

[corvidae]

I know you don't want advice, but I'm curious, why would you be willing to except your current situation if it's not what you want? You're still a young guy, why do you want to give up so easily?

 

Well! That's a loaded question! Firstly I don't think I've given up easily. It's not like I don't go out, or that I now sit at home in the dark, quietly sobbing. I live my life as full as I can, it's just I'm trying to learn to be happy with what I have rather than what I think I need. I made effort with women, asking them out, for a few years, but with no real success. To really understand where I'm coming from I'd have to describe my life so far, and there's no time or space for that! But let's just say that my school years left me quite angry, and because of the way I was treated by girls (ignored or laughed at) I felt very very ugly and horrible. I spent many years feeling alone and depressed thinking I was disfigured, and there was a point in my life when I needed very badly for someone to tell me I wasn't as horrible as I thought, I needed someone to find me attractive, but it never happened and I got a little worse. That's why I always say on these forums how men need positive reinforcement too, because women just saw me as a 'man' and all they wanted was for men to make them feel good, but it should work both ways. It's been a long time, but I feel OK now, I feel like I can enjoy life anyway. It's difficult to explain, but a lot of my life has been about hoping, and striving and conflict, and now I'm tired and just want some peace and contentment.

[Shidoshi]

Well! That's a loaded question!

I guess it was.

 

I hear you man, and I know everybody approaches life differently. Hopefully, when you begin to feel "content" you'll give this another try. Despite the negative experiences you've had in the past, there are women out there who are well worth the your efforts.