Should I go for it or it's too late?

[YouAreNotAlone]

20 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Did you suggest a different movie? Or a different activity?

Well, unfortunately, movie offer atm is abysmal, she already watched current blockbusters. And no, I didn't offer different activity as I was little bit down... Maybe I should have done that? We are going to have an end of year party so maybe a sip of alcohol will help her show something more hahaha.

[smackie9]

My take on this is yes you are friends zoned really badly. She totally knows you like her that's why she's trying to hide the fact a guy has interest in her. She likes the attention you give her, and yes there is some emotional attachment...but that's where lies the difference. Girls can be emotionally attached without romantic feelings but with guys it's everything to do with romantic interest.

The best way to handle this, since we really don't know for sure is, to be desirable, is to be less available. When you are at their beck and call, there's no challenge. No challenge or mystery, no interest. I say pull away a little bit and have her come to you....make things shift to her making the effort.

[Sam1986]

37 minutes ago, YouAreNotAlone said:

Whoah, didn't expect this amount of replies and analysis, thank you!

First to answer @rainbowsandroses your last post. It's not me. She was talking about some guy that approached her in a club this weekend.

And now, I asked her to go with me and see a movie. She wasn't interested as it's kind of movies she doesn't like at all (honestly I think I alone wouldn't watch it, as it's specific genre) so I guess it's kinda rejection. And I am ready to accept that as I believe that any answer than YES is a NO. But, after this, we continued talking about movies, shows we like, she was teasing me about some stuff that we talked recently about a tv show, I teased her about something else, so it continued like she never rejected me. Today, she was with the same energy as before when interacting with me, maybe even more affectionate with warm smiles when listening to me talking to her (there was something different in that smile, don't know what haha).

You mentioned about some kind of energy or pull you felt with a guy in elevator, well that's how I would explain our energy tbh. Whenever we are in the same room, even today, we nearly always end up close to each other, talking, laughing etc. When we are one-on-one when waiting for classes, it can last for hours and we sit and have a drink in that time, we talk non stop about any subject.

I know it's probably all friendly behavior from her side and that's why I'm going to lower my focus on her. But I'm ready to explore the possibility that @rainbowsandroses mentioned and just take it slow and natural and see where it goes as this direct approach didn't work, maybe she needs more time or maybe just not interested.

This right here is why I would just go and ask her out on a date (bolded the parts that are typical of a push-pull dynamic).
Currently you are describing the frustrating feeling of hot and cold, and even if you describe how that it's "probably all friendly behaviour", you continue on and write down what is essentially a hope that "maybe, just maybe". This can pretty much go on forever, because at the moment you two have a dynamic where it escalates to a certain point, before it deescalates and then later on escalates again. As someone who has experienced that just as much as you, it's frustrating to say the least.

I'll be honest and say that there is a good chance that she isn't into you.
The problem with this situation is that someone that might not be super into you, might be everything from "a little bit into you" (wants to keep you on the hook, but won't commit), wants to keep the friendship (thereby acting friendly afterwards in order to not lose you friendship, which you misinterpret as interest), or just doesnt know how to reject you at all (maybe because she doesnt want to hurt you).

Regardless of which it is, the bottom line here is that this dynamic is happening between you, you clearly want something more while nothing really comes of it, and it's currently doing your head in as you are in a twilight state of constantly wondering and hoping for more.

Ask her out and get it over with, at least you'll have your answer.
It sucks to get rejected, but as you currently describe your situation, you've got pretty much nothing to lose.
If she rejects you and wants to remain your friend, you can decide for yourself if you want that later. As someone who has experienced this a couple times before, it's likely just going to continue unless you force the issue (that, or you actually decide to leave her be, but looking at how you are repeatedly keeping the door open, I'd say that is unlikely to happen. And who can blame you, you want her).

[Sam1986]

2 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

The best way to handle this, since we really don't know for sure is, to be desirable, is to be less available. When you are at their beck and call, there's no challenge. No challenge or mystery, no interest. I say pull away a little bit and have her come to you....make things shift to her making the effort.

I'd say that this is very unlikely to happen. We are assuming here that he by himself has the power to get the outcome he desires through changing his behaviour, which I take great issue with. People don't necessarily become more attracted to someone because they pull away. This girl is a person, and like all people she has her own desires and wants. And if she's not attracted to him initially, no amount of "pulling away" is going to make her want him. I believe that this part that I quoted above here is some very bad dating advice in general, and reflects a notion that people should just drop alltogether if they desire healthy dating patterns and relationships.

[smackie9]

4 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

I'd say that this is very unlikely to happen. We are assuming here that he by himself has the power to get the outcome he desires through changing his behaviour, which I take great issue with. People don't necessarily become more attracted to someone because they pull away. This girl is a person, and like all people she has her own desires and wants. And if she's not attracted to him initially, no amount of "pulling away" is going to make her want him. I believe that this part that I quoted above here is some very bad dating advice in general, and reflects a notion that people should just drop alltogether if they desire healthy dating patterns and relationships.

No, I never mentioned this would guarantee anything BUT, as a woman with a lot of experience on how we think, we can be totally undecided unless something does change, that makes us see them in a different light. Doesn't always work no, worth a try tho.

My reasoning with this post is how to stay out of the friends zone for in future if things don't work out.

[rainbowsandroses]

Frankly I don't know what she's doing.  What I DO know is that when a woman is attracted and interested, she will jump at the chance to go out with a man (in this case you) when he asks.   Doesn't matter what he suggested, he asked, she's going!

If the movie you chose isn't to her liking, she would suggest another one OR suggest another plan altogether.  

NOT just blow you off the way she did.  Not gonna happen when a woman is highly interested.

After this, I now agree with @smackie9 100%.  You are friend-zoned and one of her orbiters.  She may enjoy the attention so she throws you a bone or two to keep you hanging in and the attention flowing, but this woman is definitely not interested, no way.  

20 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

The best way to handle this, since we really don't know for sure is, to be desirable, is to be less available. When you are at their beck and call, there's no challenge. No challenge or mystery, no interest. I say pull away a little bit and have her come to you....make things shift to her making the effort.

Absolutely this 100%   You may be able to turn this around but for now please pull back and stop giving her so much attention, etc.  

It's not working and it's not happening.  

Again I'm sorry.

 

 

[Sam1986]

1 minute ago, smackie9 said:

No, I never mentioned this would guarantee anything BUT, as a woman with a lot of experience on how we think, we can be totally undecided unless something does change, that makes us see them in a different light. Doesn't always work no, worth a try tho.

My issue isnt with whether or not it is guaranteed to work, my issue is that it reinforces unhealthy dating and relationship patterns later in life.

Not everything is up to yourself in life, and trying to "change" someone else's behaviour (an autonomous person with their own feelings, wants and desires) towards you by changing your own behaviour is reminiscent of playing games, which is by itself unhealthy. Harsh words perhaps, but I feel quite strongly about anything that is reminiscent of playing games and manipulating behaviour. Once you meet a person that you just mesh well with, there is no need to pull these sorts of tricks at all. Either you like each other or you don't.

[Sam1986]

3 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Absolutely this 100%   You may be able to turn this around but for now please pull back and stop giving her so much attention, etc.  

It's not working and it's not happening.  

Again I'm sorry.

He needs to pull back full stop (and permanently), or ask her straight up. This dance has gone on for too long, and nothing in her behaviour pattern is suggesting that it will change.

From a man's perspective, this pattern is not uncommon when trying to woo a woman. At some point you gotta start cutting your losses and free up your headspace for meeting other people.

[rainbowsandroses]

OP, I will go even further to say forget about her altogether.  You're an orbiter and once an orbiter, always an orbiter.  

Whatever you do, do NOT ask her out again.  Directly or indirectly.  Start focusing on other women, you gave it your best shot, she said no, DONE.

[rainbowsandroses]

13 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

He needs to pull back full stop (and permanently), or ask her straight up. This dance has gone on for too long, and nothing in her behaviour pattern is suggesting that it will change.

From a man's perspective, this pattern is not uncommon when trying to woo a woman. At some point you gotta start cutting your losses and free up your headspace for meeting other people.

Bolded, I agree with you!  I wasn't suggesting he "pull back" as some sort of game to get her interested.  Screw that.  I suggested it because it's the right thing to do for HIM.  IF she changes her mind because of it, then let her come to him and start making effort.

TBH though, I don't think she will, like you said it's been going on long enough, he gave it a shot, she turned him down, so it's done, not to mention it appears she's into another man anyway.

 

 

 

[Sam1986]

4 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

TBH though, I don't think she will, like you said it's been going on long enough, he gave it a shot, she turned him down, so it's done.

I'd be careful though, because it's not uncommon that she starts getting more and more friendly as he pulls back (even outright flirting), and when you really like someone it's hard to resist that, thinking that "things have changed". This is in a nutshell why I advocate just being straight up, because it kills such nonsense dead in it's tracks.

But yeah, she isn't interested, time to move on.

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, YouAreNotAlone said:

. When we are one-on-one when waiting for classes, it can last for hours and we sit and have a drink in that time, we talk non stop about any subject.I know it's probably all friendly behavior from her side and that's why I'm going to lower my focus on her. 

Sorry this happened. Unfortunately asking for a specific date, time, activity is usually a bad idea.  In the future try to be flexible and find something mutually interesting and agreeable.

She still seems to like you, but whether it's friendzone or not is unclear. Agree that anything but a yes is a no, however you picked an unreasonable activity. In the future ask someone out one-on-one for a comfortable casual fun date. Not something you would do with a pal. 

Also agree that making anyone anxious or uncomfortable does not build attraction. Either someone has butterflies for you...or they don't. 

It's definitely a good idea to broaden your focus and not get too attached to her or any particular outcome. The good news is it wasn't awkward and you didn't adversely affect the friendship. 

[smackie9]

8 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

My issue isnt with whether or not it is guaranteed to work, my issue is that it reinforces unhealthy dating and relationship patterns later in life.

Not everything is up to yourself in life, and trying to "change" someone else's behaviour (an autonomous person with their own feelings, wants and desires) towards you by changing your own behaviour is reminiscent of playing games, which is by itself unhealthy. Harsh words perhaps, but I feel quite strongly about anything that is reminiscent of playing games and manipulating behaviour. Once you meet a person that you just mesh well with, there is no need to pull these sorts of tricks at all. Either you like each other or you don't.

Sorry bro but these things are the truth. I'm just giving you the rare opportunity to actually hear it from an experienced woman. Courting is successful to those who know how to work the psyche with posturing, subtle advances, the right body language, saying the things that would matter the most in the moment, charm, humour, mystery. Women think very emotionally. We make decisions with our emotions first and foremost. When a man know how to tap in that, he can be successful even if he's fat, short not so attractive. There are those men that just have it, because they learn, pay attention. Like witches...there are bad one and there are good ones....just like courting, there are toxic ways, and there are good ways of doing it.

[boltnrun]

Well, I'm a woman and no man has ever gotten my interest by pulling back and acting aloof. That always makes me LESS interested.  My husband did that while we were still "just friends" and I stopped talking to and hanging out with him. When he finally came by to ask why I told him he had made it clear he was too busy for me and I wasn't going to chase. He apologized and said he was wrong. It took quite a while before I allowed him to get close again. 

Other guys have tried the "unavailable" thing with me and every time it's "see ya, buddy!"

But that's just me. I can't speak for all women. 

However I do agree that continuing to try to be "friends" is futile, unless you want to watch her date other guys. 

[Sam1986]

10 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

Sorry bro but these things are the truth.

You do you, if you feel that this approach is the right, that's perfectly ok. But let's not pretend like this is some universal truth. Women (just like men) aren't all similar, and treating them as some stereotype who "all think emotionally, ready to be wooed with the right combinations of words and attitude" is in my opinion just dishonest.

5 minutes ago, boltnrun said:

Well, I'm a woman and no man has ever gotten my interest by pulling back and acting aloof. That always makes me LESS interested.  My husband did that while we were still "just friends" and I stopped talking to and hanging out with him. When he finally came by to ask why I told him he had made it clear he was too busy for me and I wasn't going to chase. He apologized and said he was wrong. It took quite a while before I allowed him to get close again.

My point exactly. I'm the same as you, if I sense any sort of back and forth these days, I'm out the door. Got neither time nor interest for that.

[rainbowsandroses]

16 minutes ago, smackie9 said:

Sorry bro but these things are the truth. I'm just giving you the rare opportunity to actually hear it from an experienced woman. Courting is successful to those who know how to work the psyche with posturing, subtle advances, the right body language, saying the things that would matter the most in the moment, charm, humour, mystery. Women think very emotionally. We make decisions with our emotions first and foremost. When a man know how to tap in that, he can be successful even if he's fat, short not so attractive. There are those men that just have it, because they learn, pay attention. Like witches...there are bad one and there are good ones....just like courting, there are toxic ways, and there are good ways of doing it.

Amen @smackie9, well said!  And I'm sorry but it is a bit of a "dance" and fun!  

Anxiety, uncertainty is all part of the process, the "dance" of courtship during early stages, no one is intentionally "making" you feel anxious or uncertain.

It's simply the nature of the beast as the saying goes; again early stages when two people are connecting and determining where they'd like things to go.

It doesn't last forever.

 

[YouAreNotAlone]

35 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

OP, I will go even further to say forget about her altogether.  You're an orbiter and once an orbiter, always an orbiter.  

Well, it will be a little bit hard to forget about her as we go to same Uni classes in a group of 5. And not to mention that she insisted that I go with her in that group. I didn't plan to do it but she called and wanted me there. So, as you see I'm stuck with seeing her every day until who knows how long hahaha.

And yeah, I will have to focus on others, as it's probably the only "cure" for this. It will be hard ofc, I will need time to overcome it. And if she shows more direct interest in the mean time, well, I will think about that if it ever happens. And consult everyone here haha 😜

[rainbowsandroses]

28 minutes ago, Sam1986 said:

My point exactly. I'm the same as you, if I sense any sort of back and forth these days, I'm out the door. Got neither time nor interest for that.

Just wanted to comment on this.  

Emotions are fluid, especially women's.  During early stages it is not uncommon for there to be a little bit of "push/pull," not intentionally as a game, but rather it's what we experience as we date and attempt to connect with another human being.

It's not always smooth sailing as we go through this process.  Shakespeare and other reputable authors have written about it  - as Shakespeare wrote "the road to true love never does run smooth."   

This has been true in all my relationships (both short term and long term and my marriage), bar none, and I have become quite adept at handling it.

If someone cannot tolerate a bit of uncertainty or anxiety during this process and catastrophize every time things go a little off course and end things, they're going to have a very difficult time connecting and developing relationships IMHO.

All the best moving forward @YouAreNotAlone. 

 

 

[boltnrun]

Definitely not my experience and I'm a woman. No "push-pull" on my part, so I disagree this is what "women" do. It's what SOME women do. 

And Shakespeare was a poet, not a sociologist or scientist. He may have experienced flighty women but that doesn't mean all of them are. 

I have observed that some PEOPLE who are immature will only want someone if they think someone else wants them or if they're "hard to get". My ex is a perfect example. He wanted me if he thought someone else did, otherwise he was "meh". 

I would imagine, OP, that as soon as another young lady catches your eye you'll have no trouble at all being around this one.

[Coily]

I think, regardless of how awkward things could be in Uni; you have to just rip the band aid off and ask her on a proper date. Be up front that it's a date, regardless of what you choose to do (drink, dinner, dancing, whatever).

I say this as a guy who has one too many "if only I could have figured things out better" ladies in my past; the most liberating moments came from knowing one way or the other. It gets your head straight on how to behave around her and if you are being sucked into the orbit of an emotional black hole.

Be bold, be confident, and be done with guessing.

[boltnrun]

Just now, Coily said:

you have to just rip the band aid off and ask her on a proper date.

He did, she (in essence) said no. 

[Sam1986]

10 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

If someone cannot tolerate a bit of uncertainty or anxiety during this process and catastrophize every time things go a little off course and end things, they're going to have a very difficult time connecting and developing relationships IMHO.

Not sure if you're insinuating that I or boltnrun are catastrophizing, it's just that I have no patience for that sort of play. I dont have any particular problems forming relationships, and just got out of one with a fantastic woman (where we unfortunately had to split ways over the issue of children). That last one we had sparks flying from the first date, and both were up front about this date being great (and the rest that followed as well).

People are very different, hence my point that we try to avoid labelling people and how "this and that sex acts in this and that way" and assume intentions and modes of operating which may not hold true for that particular individual.

[Coily]

1 minute ago, boltnrun said:

He did, she (in essence) said no. 

Late to the party. Haha

Doing some quick catch up, Yeah... that ambiguity... I'd be done with trying. Cutting severely back on all interactions that weren't program related. Maybe I'm a bit jaded, but when things get into that orbiter territory I tend to run for the hills and never look back.

Then again I'm single so what do I know? lol

[Coily]

A quick anecdote from a similar situation at Uni.

Girl I was interested in kept me in orbit in one program, short term one; I asked her out on dates and she agreed to go out. However, she would always back out. We did this 3 times over the course of a few months. Her best friend of many years came up to me, told me to run as I was being used by her to get passing grades in the course. I withdrew from all interactions, rather bruised ego.

Subsequently those two as friends had a big blow up argument on campus, and the gal I orbited dropped out as her grades tanked when she couldn't honey pot help. It was a strange lesson, but one well learned.

Now I'm not saying this is your case OP, but rather a story of mine where I had to learn some un-fun lessons.

[boltnrun]

5 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Just so I'm clear, in all your successful long term relationships and marriage, you never experienced any anxiety or uncertainty, nor did your partners, things were always on course and consistent with no deviation ever?

If so, okay fair enough!  I don't think I know any couple where it's ever been like that, but there are always exceptions and you are one!

P.S:  I am not talking about playing games or any other strategies like intentionally pulling back or not calling or anything like that, just to be clear.

 

 

 

Not what I said. What I said is any push-pull activity resulted in me losing interest and walking away. I also can't imagine why, in a marriage, there should be ANY "push-pull". Why would anyone do that in a marriage?

As for anxiety and uncertainty, definitely happened in bad relationships. Which I have had. I don't consider a relationship that resulted in a breakup to be "successful". My marriage obviously ended but we were together for 16 years, so I suppose that could be categorized as "successful".