What’s next?

[rainbowsandroses]

11 minutes ago, Type O Negative said:

To go where? Back to life of solitude  and yearning for human touch? At 61? With his romantic history? D won't leave. 

Back to HIMSELF and finding his self respect, self-worth and his own values as a MAN.

Again, I am shocked at her response to his lovely text.  SHOCKED!

If me, it would have gone straight to trash and a big next.

I'd rather be alone for the rest of my life than to deal with that BS. 

 

 

[Type O Negative]

8 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Back to HIMSELF and finding his self respect, self-worth and his own values as a MAN.

Again, I am shocked at her response to his lovely text.  SHOCKED!

If me, it would have gone straight to trash and a big next.

I'd rather be alone for the rest of my life than to deal with that BS. 

 

 

Eh? She responded with  an 😘. 

[Type O Negative]

12 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Back to HIMSELF and finding his self respect, self-worth and his own values as a MAN.

Again, I am shocked at her response to his lovely text.  SHOCKED!

If me, it would have gone straight to trash and a big next.

I'd rather be alone for the rest of my life than to deal with that BS.

 

 

He'd rather be in a volatile dating situation than alone, presently or for the rest of his life. His choice and his right. 61 is a bit too late for value and self-worth finding journeys and all that. In my opinion.

[rainbowsandroses]

7 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Potentially abusive relationship if you ask me. 

If you feel comfortable encouraging that, then so be. 

I think he deserves better so won't encourage it.

 

And to add, might I remind of what HE wanted to say to her -- "let me go so I can find someone who doesn't find all these red flags."

He's not happy at all.  He was inviting her to let him go so he could find someone who truly valued him and respected him.  Loved him.  

That's not this, not by a long shot.

My advice was he did not need her to let him go, HE could (and should imo) make the decision to leave himself so he might find someone more suited to him, and him to her. 

Together they are like oil and water, and it’s not going to get better, in fact it's likely to get worse.

JMO.

 

[Wiseman2]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

 she responded with:😘  I was hoping for something a little bit more engaged than that.

Aren't you two talking later before your gig?

She works all week so what is she doing on her day off? You mentioned she usually drives an hour to tend to her 90 y/o mother or has a lot of other stuff to catch up on?

Taken out of context there's nothing wrong with this especially when talking later is already on the table. 

[rainbowsandroses]

Okay wait a second, I thought she responded to his lovely text with this:

"Guess I was hoping for something a little bit more engaged than that."

But now after re-reading, those were Whirl's words to US.

OK, totally my bad, apologies Whirl.

Her emoji response was fine. 

I need a break, gonna go for a run now.  I'm losing it, lol. 😂

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

This thread has gotten kind of nuts. We are seeing everything through his lens which is very anxious, fatalistic, and he’s even said he’s got borderline traits.  
 

I feel like every and anything he’s saying to her is going to be laden with this need for her to reassure him. “Ok, leave if you want. Do me the favor,” in attempt to quell his abandonment fear.  That stuff is exhausting and abusive. It’s manipulative.   His reports back to us are going to be one of a victim because he’s seeing “the [potential] end” in any and everything she says. 
 

I don’t know. I get he’s writing on here to clear his mind but there was nothing wrong with her emoji response, I can imagine saying anything more would open a new can of worms. 

[Seraphim]

Her response was fine . 

[rainbowsandroses]

6 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I get he’s writing on here to clear his mind but there was nothing wrong with her emoji response, I can imagine saying anything more would open a new can of worms. 

Yeah, my bad see my response just posted. I totally read his post wrong.

Agree the emoji response was fine.  

[Whirling D]

1 hour ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

I’d hazard a guess you’re both emotionally unhealthy, there’s no way all of these weird undertones aren’t very present in her experiences with you thus far. I am wondering if she, too, craves this drama and intensity. 
 

a lot of people see conflict as a sign of compatibility if you “work hard enough,” “love strong enough,” etc etc etc   You mentioned she has a relationship history of both parties yelling at one another…

Weird undertones? 

[bluecastle]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

maybe I’ll make one last ditch effort at validating why I said those things a week ago…

Why the need to validate it, though? 

I'm in a relationship, have been in others. And when I'm feeling insecure, I have made remarks that are maudlin, dramatic, crazy-making, wholly unproductive. Sometimes I catch myself and say, "Doh, my bad!" Sometimes I get called out and then say, "Doh, my bad!" What I don't do or understand is making a habit out of redefining these moments as holy or righteous. 

Funny aside, in the name of levity, that might have some import here: I once went on a few dates with a woman who told me she'd recently gone on a date with a dude who, right when he picked her up, took a big puff from one of those clunky electric cigarettes that look like 1980s cell phones. He then asked her, "What do you think of these things?" She said she thought they were kind of silly and lame, at which point he made a U-turn and dropped her off back home. Date over. 

Gotta hand it to that dude: she hit a sore spot with him and opted to bow out. Bad match. No interest in drama. As it happens, I also owned one of those tragic contraptions myself, so when she told me that story I was like, "They are silly and lame." We laughed. And she was like, "Ever try one of the thin ones that look like USB drives?" And I tried one, and liked it. Better match! Petered out after another week, but my point here is: what was a source of deep soreness for him was not for me. I had a dumb habit that I indulged in dumbly and didn't need someone to think of it any other way.  

Tying that little anecdote back to the main event: If you sincerely feel that she is repeatedly "talking smack" to the point where you need to "put your cards on the table" via a whispery middle-of-the-night statement that you're sorry you're not enough—well, that's just a lot. Yesterday, in your conversation with her, you got her a lot. Like seeks like, as the old saying goes, so it is what it is.

If it's not your thing—but your thing is still seeing where this thing goes—I say locate your own volume knob and turn it down a few notches. Can't hurt. Might help. Easier to hear your heartbeat in a quiet room, after all. 

 

[NighttimeNightmare]

8 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Weird undertones? 

Yes, for instance, it seems like instead of just being able to enjoy the company and journey of someone who wants to spend time with you, you’re spending that time convinced she’s going to abruptly leave, and you’re on guard trying to find the signs of her leaving to the point you’re actually creating a dynamic in which she should leave. It’s like a self-fulfilling prophecy and it’s as if everything you say and ponder is laced with these beliefs: that she will leave and you need to protect yourself from that 

 

there’s no way she’s not sensing that, it’s got to be present in every interaction you have with her and has probably put her on the defense too 

[Whirling D]

So, here is where I am at. Based on what you guys don’t know.  Or do.
 

Please understand… You guys only read what I write on here. That’s only one part of a much larger picture.

The doctor lady is a very nice lady. I really like her a lot. Is our situation perfect? It is not. Do I do stupid things and say stupid things? For sure.

She does have her quirks, as do I. Whether they will be the end of us, who yet knows.

I don’t yet believe that she has been abusive in anyway. Was the hair conversation swift? I don’t think so. Was her saying she wouldn’t live in my house thoughtful? I don’t think so. Was her saying that she was OK with me not being religious on the second date, and then having a big conversation about it much later when she said she wasn’t sure how that made her feel moving forward… Was that problematic? Of course. 

Was my telling her that I think she needs to figure out whether I can fit into her life inappropriate, or manipulative, or abusive? If you say yes, I think you are micro analyzing more than I do. Probably wasn’t the brightest thing for me to say, as blue, and others have pointed out. Did it sent her over the edge a bit? Maybe. But you know, I laid my cards on the table for that discussion. It was up to her to deal with it. Maybe what I saw last night was her way of dealing with it. 
 

Was her telling me that she thought we weren’t gonna work out the right thing for her to do? I couldn’t tell you. Only she could tell you whether it was reactionary, or whether she really was feeling that at the moment… Maybe she was, maybe after a while she started to think about it, while we were talking and realize that maybe it was a little hasty. It probably was.

She seemed to be OK with the end of the call last night. She pretended to give me a big digital hug, and I joked that in the video frame, it was like I got an elbow to the chops. She told me she loved me, I was feeling pretty dark, but I mumble get back. And that was it.

What is the emoji response to my text grade? No. But that’s kind of what I’ve been learning to expect from her texts. She may have been thinking that everything was fine, and that she talk to me in an hour and a half or two hours. I won’t know that until I speak with her. Our talk last night was great until it went South, and she barely texts anymore. So texting from the beginning has been inconclusive.  
 

I would certainly not respond to somebody saying something like I did in the way that she has. But I’m not her. I would probably say something sweet back, and a few weeks ago, she probably would half. But things have changed. That doesn’t necessarily mean they are bad, or moving in the wrong direction. That information is still not clear

She told me last night that she wasn’t yet sure if this would work out in the long run. That hurt, but I guess I can’t blame her with all the things we’ve talked about lately and all the red flags that have come up for her.  I wouldn’t expect her to say anything differently if that’s how she felt. I guess she was just being honest. I have to deal with that

Am I going to toss the relationship out because it isn’t perfect? Not yet. If I feel more evidence of controlling behavior, which I think there was some, feel free to disagree, or it gets otherwise worse, I’ll have to make that decision, then, based on what’s going on.

I am supposed to talk with her tonight around dinner time, because she specifically asked me to call her before band practice. Like me, she does have elements of neediness, and I think it was important to her that her and I talked today because we wouldn’t be able to talk tonight, and maybe also to soothe the little bit of her anxiety that might be related to the car from last night. Only speculation.

If she invites me to the beach house, I’ll go. I’ll do what I always do. Either on video calls, or in person. Arrive with a cheery heart, a smile on my face, and a warm hug if she accepts.  That’s what I try to do each time.
 

I will probably ask her on the phone tonight if she feels that there’s anything else that she wants to talk about, or ask, or say. She generally responds favorably when I am open to asking her how she feels about something. Maybe will talk about deep stuff, maybe not. Maybe she’ll say she’s fine and she just wants to let it go and move forward.  If that’s what she says, I’ll try my best to do that.
 

I don’t have a whole lot more to say

 

[Whirling D]

9 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

Why the need to validate it, though? 

I'm in a relationship, have been in others. And when I'm feeling insecure, I have made remarks that are maudlin, dramatic, crazy-making, wholly unproductive. Sometimes I catch myself and say, "Doh, my bad!" Sometimes I get called out and then say, "Doh, my bad!" What I don't do or understand is making a habit out of redefining these moments as holy or righteous. 

Funny aside, in the name of levity, that might have some import here: I once went on a few dates with a woman who told me she'd recently gone on a date with a dude who, right when he picked her up, took a big puff from one of those clunky electric cigarettes that look like 1980s cell phones. He then asked her, "What do you think of these things?" She said she thought they were kind of silly and lame, at which point he made a U-turn and dropped her off back home. Date over. 

Gotta hand it to that dude: she hit a sore spot with him and opted to bow out. Bad match. No interest in drama. As it happens, I also owned one of those tragic contraptions myself, so when she told me that story I was like, "They are silly and lame." We laughed. And she was like, "Ever try one of the thin ones that look like USB drives?" And I tried one, and liked it. Better match! Petered out after another week, but my point here is: what was a source of deep soreness for him was not for me. I had a dumb habit that I indulged in dumbly and didn't need someone to think of it any other way.  

Tying that little anecdote back to the main event: If you sincerely feel that she is repeatedly "talking smack" to the point where you need to "put your cards on the table" via a whispery middle-of-the-night statement that you're sorry you're not enough—well, that's just a lot. Yesterday, in your conversation with her, you got her a lot. Like seeks like, as the old saying goes, so it is what it is.

If it's not your thing—but your thing is still seeing where this thing goes—I say locate your own volume knob and turn it down a few notches. Can't hurt. Might help. Easier to hear your heartbeat in a quiet room, after all. 

 

I do appreciate in value what you are saying. For the most part, my volume has been down much of the time, with the exception of the times that I have written about on here. Doesn’t mean I don’t have anxiety, and I don’t need validation, because I do.
 

Many people would encourage conversations like the ones that we’ve had about all the different topics, because it gets things out in the open, and it lays the cards on the table.  How do you get to know each other otherwise?
 

and I’m not saying that my responses have been holy or righteous. I’m just describing what I think and what I feel. Holy or righteous is really a reflective response from those reading. I’m just telling you what I think. What I feel. What I believe. these are important to me, and I should honor them. If someone else wants to believe that they are self-righteous, shouldn’t feel the need to stop them, or change their minds. But I do. Because I believe in a lot of the things that I write in here.  I believe many of the things I write about a reflection of a broken society, and many of these problems are a stained mirror that prevents us from really seeing what true connection can really be all about. 

The doctor lady and I have had streaks of connecting deeply, passionately, and with clarity. It’s gone off the rails over the last couple of weeks, I’m not entirely sure that my responses to her have been the source of that. Only she could tell you with certainty where her red flags are coming from. You guys can speculate all you want, but there’s no true way to know. I have my own theories, and often times I say them. That doesn’t mean they’re righteous, they are just my own observations and theories. 

[Whirling D]

14 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Yes, for instance, it seems like instead of just being able to enjoy the company and journey of someone who wants to spend time with you, you’re spending that time convinced she’s going to abruptly leave, and you’re on guard trying to find the signs of her leaving to the point you’re actually creating a dynamic in which she should leave. It’s like a self-fulfilling prophecy and it’s as if everything you say and ponder is laced with these beliefs: that she will leave and you need to protect yourself from that 

 

there’s no way she’s not sensing that, it’s got to be present in every interaction you have with her and has probably put her on the defense too 

OK, fair enough. But what is also fair is that I haven’t started these more recent themes. It was her that began to bring out topics like religion, my hair, my house, and our schedule.  I was doing fairly well with how things were going, and I don’t think that I was sending her a lot of signals that brought on any of these themes. I would suggest that it might be her own avoidant attachment characteristics that may be part of that. I experienced those, as well, so I think I recognize some of that.
 

I guess I had two choices. To ignore what she was saying, or to try to dig to get to bottom of where they were coming from. I’m not really sure what difference it makes.

I am hopeful that if things go well on the phone tonight, and she still wants me to go to the beach house, that we will talk about it, a little bit more, and then I will try to let it go. I’d rather move forward than backward.  

[NighttimeNightmare]

2 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

To ignore what she was saying, or to try to dig to get to bottom of where they were coming from.

You don’t ignore it, but figuring out where they’re coming from doesn’t change the fact she’s saying those things at all. You’re allowed to be uncomfortable simply because you are, regardless of the other persons intentions. 
 

it’s ok to say “I like my hair and I don’t want to be with someone who feels, for whatever reason, that I need to change it” 

[Whirling D]

2 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

You don’t ignore it, but figuring out where they’re coming from doesn’t change the fact she’s saying those things at all. You’re allowed to be uncomfortable simply because you are, regardless of the other persons intentions. 
 

it’s ok to say “I like my hair and I don’t want to be with someone who feels, for whatever reason, that I need to change it” 

True, but as I said near the beginning of this thread, is that really the hill I wanna die on? Many people on here said that I should want to make somebody I care about happy, and should be willing to make small changes… Small ones… To make them more comfortable in what could be an uncomfortable environment. OK, I guess that’s true. I think I can do that.  I suppose.

So, religion is not a hill I want to die on.  She will have to decide that for herself. If it’s a battle she wants to pick.
 

Is my house a battle worth dying for? I’m not crazy about the insensitive comments she made. But I asked her what she thought. I guess I shouldn’t ask if I don’t want to hear the truth. It’s not an amazing place. But I like it. I have to learn not to put with somebody else thinks about something in a position that it’s gonna hurt my self-esteem. That’s not always easy and quick for me.

Am I happy that she used words that said she wanted to call it quits last night? I’m not happy at all. It scared the *** out of me. I don’t wanna lose this lady. I adore her.

She has told me many times that she grew up in a house that showed no emotional connection. No kissing. No, I love you… Nothing. I didn’t either. So, it’s not easy for either one of us to be good at doing those things. I see her trying. She told me she loved me last night before we hung up, despite how difficult that conversation was. Maybe I blew that conversation out of proportion? Well, when somebody with a straight face, tells you in a serious voice that they don’t think things are working out, that’s something to be serious about. It’s sent me into a tailspin. I’m still not really sure what to make of it, but it’s possible she was overreacting, just like I often do.  I can’t say for any certainty, that is true, but this is what I think, to be true, and until she tells me otherwise, I’ll go with that.

[Whirling D]

So the last thing that will likely be on my mind before I talk to her in about an hour is… Should I calmly ask her what she has been thinking about regarding our conversation last night, and whether or not, she is OK with how it went and whether she feels somewhat resolved with how it ended?

She asked me before we hung up how I was feeling, so that question is not foreign to either one of us. 

I mean, I’ve been kind of avoiding those difficult conversations for the last 10 days… And it all came out in one big geyser last night.

How should I approach this call?

[NighttimeNightmare]

6 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

True, but as I said near the beginning of this thread, is that really the hill I wanna die on? Many people on here said that I should want to make somebody I care about happy, and should be willing to make small changes… Small ones… To make them more comfortable in what could be an uncomfortable environment. OK, I guess that’s true. I think I can do that.  I suppose.

Yes, but there’s a balance to it. You shouldn’t skew so far one way that you end up being too self-absorbed and narcissistic; but you also shouldn’t skew too far the other way where you put your own needs aside in favor of behaving sheepish or playing out a caretaker role.
 

 You’re spending so much time trying to figure out what’s she’s doing and where she’s operating from when really that time could be devoted to balancing yourself and learning when and how to construct healthy boundaries. 

[Whirling D]

9 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

Yes, but there’s a balance to it. You shouldn’t skew so far one way that you end up being too self-absorbed and narcissistic; but you also shouldn’t skew too far the other way where you put your own needs aside in favor of behaving sheepish or playing out a caretaker role.
 

 You’re spending so much time trying to figure out what’s she’s doing and where she’s operating from when really that time could be devoted to balancing yourself and learning when and how to construct healthy boundaries. 

Completely. It’s hard for me to do that. I don’t have a lot of tools in my environment to be good at that, I don’t think.
 

At this very moment, I’m watching a fantastic video from an online therapist, who is describing Limerence, and the difference between healthy, self-regulation, and healthy co-regulation. She’s brilliant, and it’s a very good source of inspiration and information. 

[rainbowsandroses]

27 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

You’re spending so much time trying to figure out what’s she’s doing and where she’s operating from when really that time could be devoted to balancing yourself and learning when and how to construct healthy boundaries.

100%.  And what I was trying to convey as well in a few of my posts.  

@NighttimeNightmarearticulated it better.

 

[Wiseman2]

22 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

 don’t have a lot of tools in my environment to be good at that, 
, I’m watching a fantastic video 

You have the tools. Start watching videos on letting go of anger and grudges. Perhaps take some anger management courses or videos.  Or videos on conflict resolution. Research how to not perceive things as slights this much and be mortally wounded.  There's a lot out there.

[bluecastle]

47 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

So the last thing that will likely be on my mind before I talk to her in about an hour is… Should I calmly ask her what she has been thinking about regarding our conversation last night, and whether or not, she is OK with how it went and whether she feels somewhat resolved with how it ended?

Honestly, I think all this pre-gaming isn’t helpful. In trying to control and plot the future you risk making the present—the only thing that exists—uninhabitable. 

Just talk to her, and if you have something you want to bring up or ask, do it. Trust that she will do the same. 

[Batya33]

Where there's a will -it shouldn't be THIS hard for a person with a full time career and a homeowner - describes many many people - to "figure out" whether a person like yourself can "fit in" to her life -she knew the facts about you early on -single dad with joint custody/no full time employment, finances on the meager side, home owner/music/art as a hobby/side hustle, etc. 

I would understand more if she were a celebrity or politician who traveled all the time with an entourage and who would be chased by the press any time she dated anyone etc but she's a smart, educated person - who knows a lot of people, has dated/been in relationships -it simply should not be this hard and easy enough from learning the facts as early as she did to bow out then. 

I mean I did - meaning in instances where it wasn't going to work -the guy told me on the first date he was planning on moving abroad within the year, still lived with his parents, was going to go back to school full time soon for a couple of years, etc.  Those were dealbreakers for me so I bowed out -didn't try the square peg in round hole jazz.

And for sure if people start dating then a huge unexpected life event happens there might be a need to then figure it out but......yeah yeah everyone is individual.  I think what I'm writing is fairly true for many adults.

[Type O Negative]

D,

Did you ring her?