When you KNOW you are UGLY.

[jonny15]

Wise man. Alpha male types can get away with certain "improper" things--sometimes, anyway--but the rest of us need to be much more careful.

 

Yes they can. Espically when their big and good looking.

 

I just can't take the chance of a woman freaking out because she didn't like the ugly guy touching her.

[Blue Spiral]

Yes they can. Espically when their big and good looking.

 

I just can't take the chance of a woman freaking out because she didn't like the ugly guy touching her.

 

Indeed. And then her orbiters (orbiters = men who orbit a woman in hopes of sex) will see it as an opportunity to play white knight and impress/"rescue" her, which may involve harming you.

[Doc Blaze]

so much lack of confidence and blame in this thread.....

[dangletsbang]

so much lack of confidence and blame in this thread.....

 

So true. Females can spot total lack of confidence or desperation from a mile away. You can only come up with so many excuses.

[Blue Spiral]

so much lack of confidence and blame in this thread.....

 

My apologies, we'll go back to suffering in silence.

 

The OP has minimal experience with women, and his problem has lasted far longer than normal (or healthy). Where-oh-where could that lack of confidence be coming from??

[Doc Blaze]

Im talking about you

[buddha55]

There can be outside influences that contribute to lack of self confidence, but at some point you have to take responsibility to allowing it to effect you and taking responsibility to change.

[Blue Spiral]

Doc Blaze: this does not bother me, somehow. But then, I've developed an immunity to all forms of shaming language, and I suggest that Dougie and others do the same. Of the two genders, men are the ones that shoot their wounded, I'm afraid. Imagine if, when women went to fellow women to complain about men, they got a response of "Stop whining and woman up!" instead of sympathy. I'm obviously speaking selfishly, but I think we should be sympathetic to men with these sorts of problems, instead of rude.

 

That said: if you're going to attempt to shame me, please, use something other than a generic Code Red. Put some effort into it! Here's a nice list for you to choose from: link removed

[rachopin77]

Wise man. Alpha male types can get away with certain "improper" things--sometimes, anyway--but the rest of us need to be much more careful.

 

Oh my gosh... that's not improper. I'm telling you as a female. That isn't something that could be considered harassment... Most people genuinely like small touches. It's ingrained in us.

[rachopin77]

Indeed. And then her orbiters (orbiters = men who orbit a woman in hopes of sex) will see it as an opportunity to play white knight and impress/"rescue" her, which may involve harming you.

 

This is all very bitter and simply not true. I'm telling you specifically what most people respond positively to. Psychology, sociology, etc all support that. People respond well to certain types of touch because of how our brains are and how we function. It's not like only really attractive men do it, I've seen guys who are way below average do it. It's just people who are confident, and you guys just aren't confident. You can't continue to blame others and assume the worst, you will never fix your problems if you do that. Stop pretending to be the victim, and take ownership of your life and relationships.

[Blue Spiral]

Oh my gosh... that's not improper. I'm telling you as a female. That isn't something that could be considered harassment... Most people genuinely like small touches. It's ingrained in us.

 

It's anecdote time.

 

I avoid bars and clubs, but once, when I was at a restaurant that had a bar, I saw something interesting--and I've seen variations of it in many other places. Guy #1 is trying to chat up Hot Girl, who was sitting on the side of the bar, near the hall that led to the restrooms. The place was pretty busy. Well, Guy #1 pretty clearly got shot down, though she let him buy her quite a few drinks first. Then, here comes Guy #2, who's trying to get to the restroom. He had to squeeze by her, and she was drunk or not paying attention. She tried to stand up right when he was going by, and he momentarily put his hand on her upper back, right below her shoulder, and said "excuse me" so she'd know someone was behind her. He barely touched her, but she started freaking out and screaming. Guy #1 comes rushing in to push him away and start threatening him. Guy #2 was saying he didn't do anything, and I actually walked over and backed up his account.

 

The lesson is: uninvited public touching = always dangerous.

[Doc Blaze]

more like blame it on the alcohol ....

[poetryandlyrics]

I don't think the problem lies in that kind of touching but the girl. Shoulder tap is not inappropriate. That's unfortunate though because Deaf people do want to be tapped on the shoulders or like neutral places to get their attention but people seem to be frightened to touch people. Probably because of this. I've noticed because I am Deaf also. It's irriating to me because I don't see a reason why they should not tap me on the shoulder for an "excuse me." Anecdote time #2: I was in a store, looking at products. Apparently this woman had to be saying "excuse me" without trying to get further attention, but merely saying it over and over. What happened after? She rammed her cart in my ankle, on purpose as it was forceful, as she went by. Sometimes it's the people that's the problem, touching or not.

[Blue Spiral]

more like blame it on the alcohol ....

 

That could very well be the case. But I've known guys who have been in that situation when there was no alcohol involved, and something similar happened to me in high school. Men need to be just as aware of potential physical danger as women are.

 

But Dougie apparently does better in bars, so it's a moot point.

[Slimpee]

There can be outside influences that contribute to lack of self confidence, but at some point you have to take responsibility to allowing it to effect you and taking responsibility to change.

 

This is 100% correct. Everyone has a choice when something isn't going the way they want it to: 1. Blame it on factors out their control ie society, the media, genetics, whatever or 2. Understand that only you have control over your reactions and do what you can do to change things.

 

Men who are unhappy with their dating lives, what are YOU doing to change what you can? (besides complaining and blaming)

 

Think about it, do you think a woman would want to be with a guy who is negative and showers blame without taking responsibility? You can't change your skeletal structure but you can change your attitude!

[jonny15]

Indeed. And then her orbiters (orbiters = men who orbit a woman in hopes of sex) will see it as an opportunity to play white knight and impress/"rescue" her, which may involve harming you.

 

YEp.

 

Those guys could get nasty.

 

I'd be willing to get beat down for defending a woman. But I don't want to get beat down just because I tried to touch her.

[Cognitive_Canine]

I have heard of a few guys who have fear about touching women. "Hoverhanding" and such. They tend to be men who have a general fear of women.

 

I have never actually seen a woman getting mad because of an innocent touch though.

 

One of the later stages of flirting for me is touching them nonsexually. I'll grab their arm when laughing or put my hand on their knee when leaning to get something off the table. Or I'll mess with their hair or give their beard a scratch in a flirty way.

[NymphaeaLilly]

Someone once said: "The ONLY piece of universe you can change is yourself!"

This is the universal truth but unfortunately so little people believe in it cuz it's easier to not do anything and blame others/fate for their misfortune.

[jonny15]

Oh my gosh... that's not improper. I'm telling you as a female. That isn't something that could be considered harassment... Most people genuinely like small touches. It's ingrained in us.

 

It could possibly be seen as harrasement,

 

That or another guy might get mad and want to attack me.

 

I never randomly touch women, and they never touch me.

 

Not that I wouldn't welcome the touch, but it sure doesn't happen.

[Polis]

Dougie, I don't agree with the opinion of some regarding bars. I think bars can be a great place to meet people, especially if a band is playing. Right there is a built in common interest. I've had numerous dates from meeting girls in a bar.

 

There are establishments that serve alcohol that are not great places to find girls if you are not great looking; for instance dance clubs, loud college bars, etc... but avoid those, stick to places you have fun in.

 

Based upon your responses and desperation you give off, I am going to assume you try way to hard right from the get go. When you approach a girl you have to build rapport, especially if you are not as confident or attractive as the next guy. Don't go in guns blazing trying to hit on a girl, you need to talk to her like a person to start with. Talking to girls you do not know or have no way to be introduced to means you are going to start with disinterest and need to build your way to interest, if possible. Don't try to impress a girl right away, it needs to be subtle. You need to be you and not a player. There is no magic solution for you.

 

I'd totally come wing-man for you if I lived in L.A. I read all your threads, have been in the lack of confidence boat and know you have at least SOMETHING to offer. PM me if you want to talk about how I go about talking to girls and how I built up confidence.

[Dougie_D]

Exactly! I've gone out to shows, etc.. Bars are just natural. I think a lot of musician, hipster, artsy types go out to bars more than normal. And those people I'm attracted to anyways. My "good lucking model friend" hates to go to bars. He's all about the clubs. Actually when the bar is PACKED, I will most likely come back when its more open. I'm a "casual bar guy"

 

About the touching on this thread: 1. Never touch/tap ANY woman until she gets the vibe that you are behind her. It's better to do it from the side when approaching. 2. I would stay away from actual SKIN at first. Maybe when things get flirty you can go after skin. 3. Also, stay away from below the waste even if she's wearing pants. Again, that's in time if you really think its a good time. 4. The best ways to touches, at least for me, is the SHOULDER. Or casual "bumps". Shoulder to shoulder rubs. I would say touching is a LOT safer when you are into 15 minutes conversation and you guys are closer in contact.

[blueidealist24]

I have heard of a few guys who have fear about touching women. "Hoverhanding" and such. They tend to be men who have a general fear of women.

 

I have never actually seen a woman getting mad because of an innocent touch though.

 

One of the later stages of flirting for me is touching them nonsexually. I'll grab their arm when laughing or put my hand on their knee when leaning to get something off the table. Or I'll mess with their hair or give their beard a scratch in a flirty way.

 

I slapped a guy once, but he grabbed my CROTCH. One night when I was in a really bad mood because I was hungover and probably shouldn't have even gone out in the first place, a sleazy looking guy I didn't know and hadn't talked to ran his hand suggestively accross the back of my neck while he walked by. I tried to slap him too, but I missed him.

[Dougie_D]

I've updated my profile! Not pictures yet, but the summary.

[rachopin77]

As someone has already mentioned, in bars and clubs people, especially women, are on high alert most of the time. I don't like people to touch me in any way when I'm in a club or something, because I'm on high alert for creeps, but in other places it would be nice. Couple that with alcohol and people become unpredictable. You can't base drunken reactions on what people are really like. But its best to stay away from bars and clubs when looking for something real anyway. And use your common sense if you're going to touch people. Don't go up behind someone and touch them out of the blue. And You have to have some interaction to get them to open up to you and feel more familiar before you touch them a bunch. But touching is a positive thing, and can make people seem more confident. That's just how it is.

[rachopin77]

It could possibly be seen as harrasement,

 

That or another guy might get mad and want to attack me.

 

I never randomly touch women, and they never touch me.

 

Not that I wouldn't welcome the touch, but it sure doesn't happen.

 

Nonsexual touch would not be harassment. A touch on the shoulder or arm is not going to get in you in real trouble. People can accuse you of things even if you don't touch them. There are crazy, overreacting people everywhere. But you just proved what I've been saying. You said you would welcome the touch. So would most people. But I don't mean just touching people out of the blue RIGHT when you meet them. You have to have spoken to them some and gotten a little familiar to know if they in particular would be open to touch.