How do I heal when we have kids?

[Nattersmatter]

Second time lucky (aargh!). I was about to post my reply earlier when I lost internet connection to my PC (am having to borrow hubbie's). Need to start again, now...

 

1. It's good he came in smiling and echoing your 'good morning'. He must have either had a bit of a processing breakthrough or(/and) got a good night's sleep. Good that you were normal and friendly, too. (Tick!)

 

2. Noted that he accept your gift (makes no odds it was only a cuppa; a gift is a gift and acceptance is acceptance - you'd be surprised how many men are in that same situation spitting feathers yet (pettily) refusing the offer). So - (Tick!)

 

3. Interesting he's thinking of looking to change his job. VERY interesting. Methinks meladdie has been suffering from a mid-life-crisis - understandably, given how young he was when you married plus the fact he went from mum to 'mum' with zero independence in between and that kid after kid put you both into stasis - and that (again, understandably for him) he's been blaming you/your marriage overly for it. With that the case, him having identified that he's unhappy in his current job should improve things massively. Yup - marital chrysalis - his crisis triggering your reactive one - or I'll eat my hat!

 

I do think after all this mess gets sorted, you two need to improve your honest communication so that you don't resort to kicking the cat (with each other being the cat to one another's kicker). But, anyway, that's for then and this is about getting there...

 

4. I'm laughing my face off at the use of euphemisims - not just by you but also your joing mini-you (daughter). There's her communicating to daddy (using the change to the marital mattress) that mummy IS starting to get into gear with doing her bit to improve matters, and there's you saying how you don't realise how bad the marital bed is until you replace it with new, and there's him saying he agrees! TOO FUNNY! It's like a clean, more purely-intellectual version of "Carry On" (do you know those films?). And then we have the next - about how daughter doesn't want the fluff to be lost in case 'they' are ruined, and husband basically saying what has to be done has to be done (thereby registering that cleanliness is more important than fluff) and you agreeing silently with your returned smile. WHAT ARE YOU LOT *LIKE*, ROFL!

 

Do you see this about yourselves? Do you see how comical it looks to the outside observer?

 

5. Am certainly noting that you said, got to go, and he basically said, 'No, don't!' and then gave you an excuse to linger, which you accepted. (Tick!)

 

6. Ditto the fact you both said, See you tomorrow. It's the 'poor man's' version of making a date, doncha know.

 

7. YOU'RE noticing a pattern? But, yes, seriously, I see what you're meaning: Obviously, when he's about to gain (happiness) he's positive and attributes that positivity to you but when he's about to lose (grieve) he's negative and attributes that to you, as well. I do believe matey is, without even realising it, trying to establish a pattern for you to notice. And the message is this: Welcome me into the home and you get rewarded. Welcome my departure and you get punished. Simple que ca! I suspect despite he's enjoying have the space to think straight and put remedies into motion, the other side of him is wanting back in but not knowing or not feeling capable of broaching it.

 

Can I make a suggestion?... That tomorrow, you say, 'Here - about the bed - come and try lying down on it, tell me what you think!'.

 

Don't say 'our' bed. Definitely don't say 'my' bed. Say 'the' bed: he chose to leave, it has to be him who dares ask to come home again (and make it 'our' bed again). BUT, you can certainly hint at your welcome of that eventuality by - when he says, 'Oh, yes, very nice!' in reaction to the sample lie-down, reply with just this: "Oh. GOOD!" (The inference is thereby obvious.) If you're feeling VERY bold, you can add with a smile, '...I thought you'd think so'.

 

(I'll have to have a proper look through your prior posts later or tomorrow - using hubby's laptop over the coffee table is giving me an aching back.)

 

Laters. And you should be able to relax and smile more, now. xoxo

[Supersarahp]

Omg ask him to lie in the bed!!!! Argh don't know if I can do that - I seriously think there is no way he would! I don't have a new mattress yet just 2 old single ones so maybe once I get the new one?

[Nattersmatter]

No, NOT lie *in* the bed - lie ON it, and for only a few seconds - like you would if you were in a bed showroom shopping for a new mattress. But I didn't realise the 'new' mattress wasn't actually new. Yes, do wait for the new one, it'll come accross too obvious, otherwise.

 

 

BTW, am going through your history with a fine tooth comb. Your story is all too familiar and common, save for the being car-less bit. (Have you passed your test since then? If not, you need to as one of the marital improvements.) In fact, I'd go so far as to say, bog standard.

 

The trouble is, if there's been any power discrepancy that's been allowed to become routine, whether for real or just in one of the party's mind and whether or not purely accidential, then the minute circumstances allow, the counter-adjustment that gets made by the suddenly liberated underdog can get overdone in order to accommodate the accompanying feelings of resentment. This over-see-sawing kept happening, from what I can see. The pair of you need to have more understanding of what it's like to be the other, although imagining standing in your gender counterpart's shoes is more easily said than done when you have such full and busy lifestyles. I think you were both allowed as kids to expect others to bend to your wills and ways more than you had to theirs, so seeing things from each other's points of view WILL be a difficult habit to take on at first. Do try, though. It's in both your interests, far more than getting your own ways.

 

(Back again in a tick...)

[Nattersmatter]

Sounds like S - who was very needy - made her son her husband (without the sex, obviously). That's too much for a little boy's brain to be able to handle, too much false power which it's then VERY hard to give up. Basically what happens is that because the child's mind is forced to learn to be a semi-adult, quick-sharpish, it's no longer available to keep working on half of the development of the child; it's diverted. Thus you end up with a child who is seems incredibly mature for his/her age and yet, whenever emotional intelligence is required, particularly under fire of upset, it's Toddler Time - "rrah-rrah-rrah!!" or going floppy on the supermarket floor (you know how it goes).

 

Does that describe your husband quite succinctly?

 

Anyway, she may not show you her true feelings but the resentment is clearly there... You stole her MINI HUSBAND!

 

The good news is, it only takes So Long to discharge that kind of banked-up resentment; it cannot go on forever because there's a finite amount. It's like puking; and considering hers has (as we can see between the lines of his behaviour and its timing) been projectile, she probably feels considerably better already. He's not really listening to her, anyway. He's just doing what men in crisis do, which is 'pull in the other woman' for leverage ("Do as I say/want or I'll go to HER, mleugh!"). In this case (which makes sense considering she was his quasi-wife and he's no cheater), it's his own mother. LOL Be thankful for small mercies despite their own downside, eh.

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

I've just got the insurance claim bit and.... nice person deep down? OH, BE SERIOUS, SARAH - THE WOMAN IS TOXIC! ...Specifically - a Victim Bully - the type who stabs you in the ribs and then behaves like SHE is the victim because, quote, you squirted blood all over her new dress, you BICZ!

 

The woman needs serious, serious counselling, and I imagine she needed it LONG before she was married. I.e. her marital problems were no cause but the symptom(s).

 

It's hard to tell without spending months, even years with a person, but... I wouldn't be surprised if she were Personality Disordered (Narcissistic), whether reactively and stuck that way or clinically/from unhealthy early rearing. Go google 'What is life like with a Borderline?', choose 'Is he/she Borderline - you're not crazy' as your first stop for a great little synopsis, to see if you can 'find her'.

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Another improvement task: STOP being the peacemaker between them. Let the natural head emerge. Anything else is mere management whereby things never emerge enough to actually get sorted. xoxo

[Supersarahp]

Thanks it does all sound right what you are saying . Arghh she has all my little family in her house right now when they should be here with me - its maddening! What can I do about it? Wait for it to run its natural course? I feel that inevitably C will fall out with her at some point. She has a 1 bed flat for Gods sake and they have a volatile relationship at the best of times. She is doing the whole nice wonderful mother part at the moment. I got a text from her tonight asking if she can treat the kids' hair for lice. It peed me off! My daughter occasionally picks up lice from school - she has long thick curly hair. I deal with it all the time - I check her all the time but she does sometimes get them and it is a big job - C has NEVER been fussed or bothered to deal with it - until now. Grr sorry for the rant but they are my bloody kids!! I have been doing everything for them all their lives and this stupid woman thinks she can take my family from under my nose? Think again cowbag! I just don't know how to stop her?

[Supersarahp]

Oh yes one other thing that happened that I wanted your take on is this.

 

When C and I got married his sister K painted us a lovely picture. She was 15 and doing art GCSE and was very good. It was a wedding picture of the two of us in an embrace. Well C had the kids on the night of his birthday (which was the eve I my birthday) it was an incredibly tough weekend for me. I had my mum brother and sister round for games and company. I drank far too much wine and had a bit of a meltdown. I ended up smashing the frame of the picture. I didn't want the kids to see it so I put it up in the built in wardrobe. After C had been here the next time I looked in the wardrobe and the picture was gone. I don't know what to make of that.

[Supersarahp]

Also do you think C will come back to me? I am so scared that things will always be like this. I hate it - I just want me family to be together again. I have told him I love him and that I am willing to do whatever it takes to help make things right with us. When I told him I love him he told me to stop lying . I don't know what else I can do? He doesn't contact me now apart from picking or dropping the kids off so we have maybe one 5 minute conversation every week - how can we build anything like that?

[Supersarahp]

I looked up what is life like with a borderline. I didn't find the link you mentioned but I had a little read. It does sound like her. She always misinterprets what people say in order to take offence. I am forever having to say "no that is not what I meant at all" and trying to calm her down

[Supersarahp]

C has tried to point out to her that he had a less than ideal childhood but all she says is that she did her best and don't you know how hard it was for her and she had to do it all and she did this and that for them and gave up her whole life for them. Even when he says he knows all that and he isn't blaming her he can't say anything about it because she gets mightily offended.

[Nattersmatter]

You say 'poles apart' but, actually, I can see where you and C have something major in common. You were both handed too much responsibility - in your case, having to be one of the, by then, adults because you, as a child, were greatly outnumbered... despite your own family life will have been more calm and respectful. It's also not hard to understand why you're so much more emotionally intelligent than C - your parents had been through a very tough, very large learning curve before they had you. However, you would have been primed as a carer type by the fact of your dad's dry alcoholism.

 

And, yes, C got the family he'd never had when he moved in with you but also, your parents were giving you the SIBLING you'd never had. Do you think perhaps that attitude of theirs as an overall vibe, affected the still developing dynamic between you and C which got carried over into your own new home and family?

 

Well since this whole thing C's mum has told me she is fine with me an stuff. She says she is completely devastated by it and called me for an hour crying on my birthday. She did give me a birthday card saying "to a special daughter in law" so I don't know what to make of her really.

 

Well, she would, wouldn't she. What ELSE do you expect her to say, 'I never liked you deeper down because you stole my little man from me (cos he wouldn't have left had it not been for you considering he was used to my false-threatening to make him leave as my mere arguing style)'? She may like you were it not for, or ASIDE from the bristling resentment she feels towards you but, ...the resentment is a reality that isn't going to go away, isn't it. I mean - what a thing to say (no-one knows or loves my son like I do) to your son's WIFE! She should be HAPPY if he's managed to replace her! That was supposed to be her whole mothering goal, was it not?! I'm sure many women THINK this - fleetingly, at times of huge stress and upset - and guiltily and self-reproachingly, seconds after they've though it - but there is the difference between healthy and unhealthy-minded: that taboo line: not ever saying it out loud and especially not to the person concerned.

 

Shocking behaviour from a supposedly grown woman! (Not from a 9-year-old child, though, note.)

 

And who the feck thinks only of themselves and their latest little drama orgy by wailing self-pityingly to someone for a full hour ON THEIR BIRTHDAY, WHAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THEIR HAPPY DAY!?...*THEIR* DAY!!! Answer: a PD.

 

I acted friendly and normal......I said I was going down to the slimming club and as I left he said "this isn't really working

 

See how he threatens you against you going when you fail to take the hint and pander to his bad mood vibe by outright winkling what's wrong out of him? Who does that, who taught him that? Answer: his mum, that's who ("Do as I say or you have to leave!"). Bad habit. Baaaaad habit!

 

He was uncomfortable for the plain and simple fact that his little attention-seeking stunt had failed to have the desired effect. Berbom. You have to convince this man you want and need him enough - to satisfy HIS appetite for reassurance - before he will come back.... Like I said before: like you USED to.

 

Are you prepared to do that? Do you want to resume operating like that? Or can you stay strong and stoic until he resolves in his mind how unreasonable that over-squeezing of juice out of you actually is and accept that it's high time that baby learned to SELF-comfort? Or are you prepared to fake it just enough to get him making the decision to get BACK into the boat so that once in, you can then address these issues more calmly and safely?

 

Course, he'll be getting loads of attention at mum's house [smirk!]. Maybe (now that we know he's not deep down taking her seriously) just let him remind himself just what life with "the ex-wife" was LIKE, eh! [evil cackle] ;-)

 

Listen, stop worrying. He won't give you your key back (actions!); by his own admission, you are the only one who knows and understands him; when you 'didn't care', that DIDN'T leave mum as the only person who did (just Jonathan); he can't hack the fact you're producing bills as a singleton and indicating you're going to take care of it like a singleton; he's saying 'Don't go!' even despite it's not even a choice (work) and despite persuading you to piss off your boss even in any minor way would be totally foolhardy (especially were a financial divvying even featuring on the future horizon - which obviously it is NOT (actions!)); he cannot bear to let you wander by in the work corridor with him unacknowledged by you;... etcetera. This may feel upsetting but you have nothing to worry about, going by what the actions all say. And actions speak loudest as well as exclusively, consistently, the truth.

 

...speaking of which: Do NOTHING about the key thing. Remember, remember, remember - you're not supposed to initiate, least of all in any 'See if I care/up yours!' fashion. You just RESPOND (and with warm welcome or massive regret).

 

Stay focussed. Like here:

 

Natter you are right about his reactions though . I have noticed that when I am cool calm and collected he notches the negativity and anxiety up - he can't seem to handle it. When I am down or not too friendly he is more chatty and friendly. I just don't know which way to be around him for he best outcome?

 

Baby wants you all over him like a rash, to make up for all the years you failed to be (because you were too busy taking care of three other little people and (barely) yourself). You're going to teach baby (by how and when you respond or fail to respond), how to seek attention and keep attention the NICER way.

 

I want to believe he will come back to me and in my heart I do believe that but I am also scared of feeling like that. There is part of me that does not want to allow him to walk over me. Basically my heart wants to sort things out with him and give home all the time support and love he needs to get his head together so we can begin to sort this out and rebuild. My head says don't be stupid - he has told you it is over - start calling the shots here.

 

That's your ego. Ignore it. Fine to demand the keys back IF HE'D ALREADY INSISTED he was going to give you the keys back but HE DIDN'T. Diff/diff. Get familiar with that chasmic difference and quick-sharpish.

 

If you read all of that then kudos to you!!!!

 

Kudos? What do I get for reading a whole book? LOL (ya daftie). Nay, Kudos to you for writing all of that. (No, you/No, YOU/NO, YOU!, lol)

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

I see we're out of synch. Let me catch up before you post anything new, okay? xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Yup. Ohhhh, YUP. Yup-yup-yup- suffice it say: that is guaranteed!

 

But, hey, why the competitiveness? If she wants to be your personal free-of-charge childminder/nanny - LET HER! Have you got any sewing she could do? [insert halo and evil cackle]

 

"Aaawwww-ways look orn the briiiiiight sii-iiide ov lirf (dee-doo!, dee-doo-dee-doo-dee-doo!)..." (sing along, Sarah?)... Gosh, what are you going to DO with all this wonderful Me Time, eh? Eh? Seriously - no messing - write me a list.

 

Here - I wonder just how KEEN the lovely mother-in-law would remain if she realised you were loving it and finding even more things for her to do that muggins is normally saddled with? [insert now slightly tarnished halo and even more evil cackle]

 

Text reply: Gosh, yes, please?! PS: Please do ensure you remember to apply a second treatment? They say one usually isn't enough.

 

 

 

(Box cleverer, Sarah. That's the only way to out-manoeuvre types like her.)

 

xoxo

[Supersarahp]

Okay thank you - you are brilliant by the way and helping me so much (oops is this posting something new ?)

[Nattersmatter]

... on which note, here is your new thought-mantra:

 

"You wannit? Do-ya-do-ya, huh-huh? Well, in that case, you can have ALL of it!"

 

It's funny how people suddenly cease to want something when it stops being a pleasure because it's become a duty and a chore, eh. ;-)

 

That's how you force things to a head the cleverer way.

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Oh, I have my non-brilliant side like everyone else, donchoo worry. ;-) xoxo

[Supersarahp]

So I should basically let him come to me but make it clear I do want and need him without pandering to his melodrama?

 

And with her - if she wants to "help" pile it on?

[Nattersmatter]

Oh yes one other thing that happened that I wanted your take on is this.

 

When C and I got married his sister K painted us a lovely picture. She was 15 and doing art GCSE and was very good. It was a wedding picture of the two of us in an embrace.

 

Wow! Most people just buy you a food processor! (Was SHE ever For this marriage or what!? (actions!))

 

Well C had the kids on the night of his birthday (which was the eve I my birthday) it was an incredibly tough weekend for me. I had my mum brother and sister round for games and company. I drank far too much wine and had a bit of a meltdown.

 

That's alright - it's in the job title. ;-)

 

I ended up smashing the frame of the picture.

 

Oops. How did you 'end up' doing that, then?

 

I didn't want the kids to see it so I put it up in the built in wardrobe. After C had been here the next time I looked in the wardrobe and the picture was gone. I don't know what to make of that.

 

Ohhhhh, sh*t.

 

Why didn't you just tell him you knocked it accidentally off the wall and that you were going to shop for a replacement frame a.s.a.p.? (Don't answer that, I know what it's like in your current state.) Better late than never... I think you'd better. Or he may think you have a problem with his entire family. I mean, it's unlikely to be any of the kids, is it.

 

More to the point though: [nyeah-nyeah-style playground-chant melody, please] SOMMMME-BODY'SSS BEEN SNOOO-PINGGGG. Coo... I wonder why he felt he needed to do that, then? Curioser and curiouser, said Alice... heh-heh-heh... SOMMME-BODY'S FEEE-LING PA-RA-NOOOOID. Could it be because somebody's producing bills like she's a singleton?...as well as pointing them out to him with seemingly zero purpose because she's going to pay it herself, anyway???

 

Could have been worse, then, eh - he could have found sexy new undies and a suspender belt (and a gift card attached, saying, 'Saw these and thought of you')

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

So I should basically let him come to me but make it clear I do want and need him without pandering to his melodrama?

 

And with her - if she wants to "help" pile it on?

 

"By Jove, I think she's got it!"

 

xoxo

[Supersarahp]

Hehe - ok I will say to him about the picture - and yes K always said I was the sister she never had . I kind of empathised with her as the youngest sibling when she was small - I knew what that felt like. She used to confide things to me that she wouldn't even tell C cos in her own words he was more like a father to her than a brother . Just recently after all this blew up she was at my house - I was upset and when he wasn't looking she mouthed to me "don't worry it will be ok when he calms down - it will it will"

[Nattersmatter]

Also do you think C will come back to me? I am so scared that things will always be like this. I hate it - I just want me family to be together again. I have told him I love him and that I am willing to do whatever it takes to help make things right with us. When I told him I love him he told me to stop lying . I don't know what else I can do? He doesn't contact me now apart from picking or dropping the kids off so we have maybe one 5 minute conversation every week - how can we build anything like that?

 

Yes.

 

Want that again?

 

Yes.

 

But stop pandering as in initiating statements. ONLY RESPOND, and respond warmly and encouragingly.

 

He told you stop lying in the same way that people, when you tell them they look nice, go, 'Who me? Oh... noooo, no I don't', so that you'll go, 'No, you DO, you really-really DO!'. Fishing for compliments, or in his case, reassurance. He has a massive appetite. Can't blame him, really, after all the years of starvation. HOWEVER - what about you? You were starved, too, weren't you?

 

How you build on that is by remembering what you were like when you were both in the initial flush of Honeymoon. The sooner you start to enjoy not having to pick up his dirty socks and undies or compromise over which telly programme to watch or have to balance on the edge of the double bed without falling off because someone's doing a starfish or, apart from the kids' tea, not have to prepare anything more laborious for your supper than toast and jam followed by a huge bar of chocolate (that you don't have to share) and fart and burp out loud or dance to your favourite old disco tracks, ETCETERA, ETCETERA (do I need to go on?...cos I can?), the sooner you'll get back to Her and the sooner he'll Want Summa That.

 

IF that fails to have the desired effect, there are other things you can start to incorporate. But for the time being, that's it. Nobody likes to feel they're being replaced or that their absence is being adapted to without much trouble. No-one. Particularly not a man who doesn't have anyone else, particularly not anyone who knows and understands him. And no-body can resist confidence and sexiness, especially not after having had to abstain for years.

 

Do you have great legs or a cleaveage?

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

I looked up what is life like with a borderline. I didn't find the link you mentioned but I had a little read. It does sound like her. She always misinterprets what people say in order to take offence. I am forever having to say "no that is not what I meant at all" and trying to calm her down

 

Noted.

 

xoxo

[Supersarahp]

I do have a cleavage but I have put on weight over the last couple of years am fatter than I have ever been. BUT my sister runs a slimming group and I Joined last week and lost 4 1/2 pounds my first week so I am going to focus on getting myself into shape over the next couple of months

[Nattersmatter]

Just recently after all this blew up she was at my house - I was upset and when he wasn't looking she mouthed to me "don't worry it will be ok when he calms down - it will it will"

 

Yep. She knows what he's up to. And it ain't Leaving You.

 

xoxo