How do I heal when we have kids?

[Nattersmatter]

I do have a cleavage but I have put on weight over the last couple of years am fatter than I have ever been.

 

Superbo! [1] Men like lots of squidy flesh (it's over-female-to-female-competitive women and fashion designers who'd rather make two size 8s than one size 16 who have a problem with it), and [2] that means your cleaveage will be even bigger. (Real men also love VPL.)

 

Next time he picks up the kids, have on a shirt so that you can have an extra button undone whereby your cleaveage and lacy bra peep out and, put it this way: don't contrive reasons to pick things up from the floor but... if you have to - do. ;-) Oh, and wear a v-shaped chain or necklace. Nothing that demands attention in itself; you want it to act only as a 'This Way' pointer.

 

Endeavour to lose the weight if it makes you feel better but don't do it for his sake or certainly don't go OTT with it.

 

xoxo

[Supersarahp]

One other thing - C is very stubborn - like VERY - once he decides something he rarely changes his mind even when all the signs say he is wrong. I worry that even if he wants to come back he will resist it. I was always the only one who could convince him to give in. That was before - in recent times as he has distanced himself from me even I can't always get through

[Supersarahp]

Hahah that is funny - a couple of days after he "ended" things he was sleeping in the spare room. I walked in and was absentmindedly scratching my neck. He said "Sarah you are flashing your boobs at me " and he was averting his eyes . I lifted up my top and said "it isn't anything you have not seen before" he was uncomfortable but t was ridiculous. I mean this man has watched me give birth!!!!

[Nattersmatter]

One other thing - C is very stubborn - like VERY - once he decides something he rarely changes his mind even when all the signs say he is wrong. I worry that even if he wants to come back he will resist it. I was always the only one who could convince him to give in. That was before - in recent times as he has distanced himself from me even I can't always get through

 

Ohhh, I didn't realise he wasn't human. Tsk! Cuh! You should have said. I'll get my Peugout 205 manual out instead, shall I? ;-p

 

Do you know the principle of judo? You use the opponents weights AGAINST them, i.e. make it work FOR you. So - he's uber-stubborn and has truck-loads of pride? GOOD! He'll be easier to re-orientate.

 

Next question?

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

That's not how you spell Peugeot, er, Pouje, PURR-JGO (fonetics rool, ockay).

 

I think that's my cue to go to beddibyes, LOL.

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Wait up!

 

I lifted up my top and said "it isn't anything you have not seen before" he was uncomfortable but t was ridiculous. I mean this man has watched me give birth!!!!

 

Uh-oh.

 

Sarah, (flip. how do I say this?)

 

Are you SURE there's no other woman in the picture?

 

Don't panic yet - let's try to find out either way...

 

Questions:

1. Has he changed his aftershave; bought new clothes (even new knickers or ties); is he playing any new CD(s) that goes against his normal taste; started saying new words or phrases; ...did you notice ANY new preferences or habits before he moved out?

2. Do you have access to all bank and credit card statements?

3. Has he started any new personal grooming habit/increased his rate of grooming (like clipping his toenails more often) or is he getting his hair cut more frequently? Did he start asking for smaller meal portions or cease eating between snacks?

4. Was he daydreaming a lot?... wanting to spend more time sequestered away in his study (if he has one) or out in the garden/his shed?

5. Did his work hours/leaving and returning home times alter, regardless of whichever shift he was on?

6. Did he have quite a few Saturdays or Sundays where he had to go shopping for something(s)? If so - did he take longer than you'd have expected? Did you suggest he take the kids and he refused under some excuse or other?

7. Was there a period before he left where he suddenly seemed to want more sex than usual?

8. Did he make any comments about how he perhaps wasn't so bad looking for his age...anything at all in that vein?

9. Did he start cleaning and washing/waxing his car more?

10. Did he start spending less on you/the kids/home or closing/opening any bank accounts, taking out new shares, whatever? Did he ask that any certain home maintenance or improvement that had been on the cards, get held off for a while?

11. Did he start criticising and snapping or 'being bulshy' or 'cocky' compared to normal? Alternatively, did he start being syrupy sweet as well as fail to get annoyed at you over things he previously would have?

12. Regards your last birthday and/or Christmas present: Did you notice anything different - either strangely more extravagant or less so?

13. Did he buy a new and more sophisticated mobile phone?

14. Did he start answering the home phone where normally he'd leave it to you? Or did he start taking mobile calls out of the room before or right after answering Hello?

15. Did he at any point within the last 6 months or so accuse you, either outrightly or hintedly, of having an affair (I'm thinking of his searching through your wardrobe, here)?

16. If you watched some telly programme that featured or touched on the topic of marital infidelity - did he react in the same way as ever (as in, What a git!)?

17. Again - this applies to before he left - did he suddenly increase his amount of time and attention towards the kids or one kid in particular?

 

Have you noticed ANYTHING that is out of the usual as could indicate him having his eyes set towards another woman?

 

xoxo

[Supersarahp]

I can honestly answer no to all of those questions apart from the one about him being late home from work - although he has been covering the manager's role and wanted to prove himself and was having trouble doing so.

 

He did start getting his back waxed a few months ago after losing all his weight so I don't know - maybe he does have someone else??

[Supersarahp]

Also a month before he left my dad had an idea that we (C,I and the kids and my parents) should take a holiday in the summer. C was really enthusiastic about it and printed off loads of info and priced it all up for my dad.

 

I don't know I guess what I am trying to say is that he was making plans for us together as a family and with my family.

 

He had become a bit snappy with me in the passed couple of weeks I guess which coincided with him saying he felt he had too much pressure .

[Supersarahp]

The only thing he said in that way was this.(need to explain the situation first. )

 

On 23rd Dec we were going to go on a Christmas night out. C , Jonathan , Jonathan's girlfriend , my friend Janine and I . Well I had been working all week and wasn't feeling like going out. Also we had not really organised it and my mum was feeling ill so I felt bad asking her to babysit - even though she said she would. I was in two minds and in the end said I would stay home and for them all to go. Well when they were all at our house getting ready to go I kind of regretted not going . C was really bouncy and happy for his night out and I was quite stroppy with him which I know was totally unreasonable.

 

Well a few days later after he said we were splitting he said that on the night out he noticed this girl checking him out and it was nice to think someone would be interested in him - like flattering.

 

He also said of the night out that I had been stroppy with him but not anyone else and it made him realise I am only like that towards him.

 

When he said he wanted us to live in the house as friends I asked how on earth that could work. I said what about meeting or seeing other people - would that be acceptable. And he said well if we are just friends than yes but you could also do that. So I said I didn't like the idea of that and he said he wasn't even thinking of that side of things . I said "so if I came in one day and said I had just spent the night with some other man you wouldn't be bothered by that?"

 

He said "of course I would be but it wouldn't really be my business"

 

On New Year's Eve he said he was going to stay at his mums by himself (she was working overnight) as he couldn't face a new year talking through our issues and I couldn't help bringing it up (i was still in shock about the whole thing)

 

Now he had a bath and put reasonably nice clothes on (not going out clothes) which struck me as strange if he was gonna be by himself. The thing is he was scratching around trying to find someone to spend new year with (most of his friends are my family). He rang Jonathan but he was busy (and I know it was Jonathan because he was using my phone having smashed his own)

 

After finding Jonathan busy he sat at the kitchen table and looked completely broken. He said "I have no one" I said "you have me" and I gestured into the living room where the kids were and I said "and you have them " and he had tears in his eyes and said "I know , and I am relying on them to get me through this"

 

He took his giant bottle of whiskey to his mums and I was worried sick about him. He came back the next day and only had had a small amount of the whiskey . He said it was the worst new year he ever spent and to be fair he didn't look like he had been having any type of a good time.

 

So I really don't know. When I was speaking to my friend (the phone call that led to our row that led to him leaving for good) I had said about C having a bath to go to his mums for new year and that I wondered he he hadn't really gone somewhere else. That was part of the phone call C overheard and he said to me "I was at my mums that night - I had a bath to try to make me feel a little bit better about myself and you can think what you want"

 

I can usually tell when he is lying - his eyes always give him away and he seemed to be telling the truth.

 

My personal take on it is that he does not have another woman but as he has lost all his weight and smartened himself up he quite likes the idea of being able to kind of sow his wild oats. I am the only woman he has ever slept with. That's my take on it - I may be totally wrong.

[Nattersmatter]

I can honestly answer no to all of those questions apart from the one about him being late home from work - although he has been covering the manager's role and wanted to prove himself and was having trouble doing so.

 

He did start getting his back waxed a few months ago after losing all his weight so I don't know - maybe he does have someone else??

 

You work in the same office as him, yes? So did you get verification that he'd been covering his manager's role as opposed to just his word about it, or if not, is there any way you still could?

 

And - late home from work how often and spaced out or in regular succession? And what about Friday nights?

 

So he lost weight and then started waxing his back. Okay. And yet he doesn't want to see you naked which presumably means, you haven't seen him naked, either? For how long?

When was the last time you had sex or any sexual activity?

And was that before or after he'd started back-waxing?

Did his style of love-making change whatsoever in the months/weeks prior to him moving out?

When was the last time he full-on snogged you (in relation to when he left)?

Had his kissing style altered?

What about kissing just with closed lips?

 

Why was your reaction to getting him to lie on the bed so extreme; why did you sound so horrified at the idea?

 

And also, what did he say to explain himself about why he was acting so over-coy at sight of your boobs? Anything? Or did it just get left like that, nothing further said?

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Also a month before he left my dad had an idea that we (C,I and the kids and my parents) should take a holiday in the summer. C was really enthusiastic about it and printed off loads of info and priced it all up for my dad.

 

I don't know I guess what I am trying to say is that he was making plans for us together as a family and with my family.

 

He had become a bit snappy with me in the passed couple of weeks I guess which coincided with him saying he felt he had too much pressure .

 

Yes, we can SEE he wants to preserve his family. But I'm talking about the LOVER, your romantic/sexual relationship. If you're on holiday with your parents and kids, it's not exactly conducive to having sex, is it. And this was a month PRIOR to him leaving. So on the other hand, were he just thinking about or starting up the cheating, I would expect you to tell me that (having grabbed full control over it like that) he had engineered it so that you COULD have sex and that he had been uncharacteristically amorous towards you. Well, saying that - EITHER extreme, really... engineered non-facility or engineered facility (e.g. your parents perfectly placed to take the kids off for long periods). Which?

 

I'll tell you now why his comment about you being semi-naked made me sit up sharp: it's a whacking great symptom. The question is, symptom of WHAT. We have a limited range of actions and reactions to suit any one mindset and its agenda. A man who acts like a newly pubescent girl when caught in flagrante like that or when confronted with your own, points to one of three things going on (albeit obviously you have to judge any of these within the frame of all other established facts and symptomatic behaviour):

 

a) He fears his libido being roused would scupper his resolve to maintain his pre-negotiations sulk and withdrawal campaign as features deliberate lack of full and honest disclosure (think female spy in bed with male enemy spy and, nuff said).

b) He is expressing his resentment, as in 'Don't touch me!' (which extends both ways and includes with the eyes).

c) He is having an affair and the bonding between him and the other woman has had time to reach a critical stage whereby him still having sex with you or even being in the same room as you when either of you is naked would feel like an out-and-out betrayal against HER. (You effectively have become the other woman.)

 

I doubt (b) for the simple reason that you described a horror reaction (which is Fear, not Resentment) as in, 'Sarah, what on earth do you think you are you DOING!?'. Is that correct?

 

Re snapping. Sure. Pressure is pressure. And allegedly it's the pressure that made him move OUT. But pressure from what, genuinely?

(a) Emotional overload - you being a 'boxing' heavyweight to his lightweight, meaning him incapable of keeping up without getting knocked to the floor the entire time by your (understandable) constant, fast-paced need for answers' interrogation and cross-examination of most of his responses (particularly when they seem not to make sense), unless he leaves the ring and boxing venue entirely.

(b) Guilty conscience (which horrid sensation becomes 'your fault' for posing as its constant trigger); a need to demonise you in his head - symptomised by snapping at you - in order that his act of betrayal of you becomes more justifiable and acceptable whereupon his guilt eases considerably; a need to manipulate you into a negative frame of mind as he's gearing up towards provoking an argument... an argument wherein you're by then bound to behave like the demon 'you are', as then self-createdly proves to him ("See?-See?!") that you are indeed a demon on whom any sane and reasonable man would have cheated, for said same guilt easement.

© The cheating husband might be trying to satisfy the needs of BOTH of these.

 

We just need to eliminate this from the enquiry to ensure you're not wasting time and energy, that's all. I see you've another post so I'll move onto that..

 

xoxo

[Supersarahp]

I do know he had that role as there are a couple of people who we both work with who have mentioned it. I am trying to think whether or not there was a pattern to the lateness - there wasn't I don't think. He was never like very late - an hour at most and it has been since he got the secondment which is about 4 months. Since I started working in the same building he always gave me a lift home on the days we finished at the same time an often I was waiting a good while for him to finish - he said come up to my section and wait while I finish up so I know that he wasn't hiding anything at those times. He really wanted to make an impression with this secondment because he has been trying for promotion for years. I do believe the times he was late home were genuine.

[Nattersmatter]

Oh, by the way, before I forget (another burning question): When you were on holiday, had he brought his mobile phone with him? And is this normal and necessary? And did he wander off to make or take calls or wander off for some uncharacteristic reason (a quick walk to catch the sunset, needing the loo a lot, offering to be the one to go to the shops either on foot or in the car for food/other items that anyone needed, that sort of excuse-creating thing... and always taking his mobile, never leaving it lying around in the room)?

 

If there was a mistress at this point and, what with him potentially being wary of being in any way sexually unfaithful to her indicating bondedness, he would have needed to create moments in which to ring or text her during such a long absence, you see, to keep her reassured as well as to satisfy their mutual missing of one another.

 

Also - back to the ranch: has he become very protective and possessive over his mobile phone? And if he does still leave it lying unattended, is it always switched off whereas before it would be left on?

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Sarah, you need to wait until I've answered every post of yours before you come in, please. I will answer each of them, even if only with 'noted'. xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Sorry for the delay and timing-out - I was deliberating and concentrating...

 

The only thing he said in that way was this.(need to explain the situation first. )

 

On 23rd Dec we were going to go on a Christmas night out. C , Jonathan , Jonathan's girlfriend , my friend Janine and I .

 

This strikes me as strange. Why not just the two couples together; why the 5th wheel? Whose idea was she? If yours, did he approve it with no fuss?

 

Well I had been working all week and wasn't feeling like going out.

 

Even MORE reason not to ask Janine along thereby making it a 'crowd', surely?

 

Also we had not really organised it and my mum was feeling ill so I felt bad asking her to babysit - even though she said she would. I was in two minds and in the end said I would stay home and for them all to go.

 

Who is Janine? Does she work at your same company? And at what point was she invited along?

 

Well when they were all at our house getting ready to go I kind of regretted not going . C was really bouncy and happy for his night out

 

Oh, was he, indeed. (See where I'm going? You'd best have some rational explanation to stop me with, Sarah.)

 

and I was quite stroppy with him which I know was totally unreasonable.

 

Or WAS it. (Again - see what I'm getting at? You might have been sensing more than you could consciously articulate.)

 

Well a few days later after he said we were splitting he said that on the night out he noticed this girl checking him out and it was nice to think someone would be interested in him - like flattering.

 

Aw, sh*t.

 

He also said of the night out that I had been stroppy with him but not anyone else and it made him realise I am only like that towards him.

 

Ooh, I wonder why [rolls eyes].

 

When he said he wanted us to live in the house as friends I asked how on earth that could work. I said what about meeting or seeing other people - would that be acceptable. And he said well if we are just friends than yes but you could also do that.

 

WH..........AT?!!?

 

WHO IS JANINE?

 

So I said I didn't like the idea of that and he said he wasn't even thinking of that side of things .

 

Clearly he WAS. And clearly the thought of another man having sex with you DIDN'T make him want to puke or kill someone!

 

I said "so if I came in one day and said I had just spent the night with some other man you wouldn't be bothered by that?"

 

He said "of course I would be but it wouldn't really be my business"

 

GAME OVER!!!! I'm so sorry, Sarah. It sounds very much, no, TOO much, like he's cheating on you.

 

From here, I'm now looking not so much looking for elimination as, merely, confirmation of what is suddenly looking wholly obvious. Sarah, I'm am SO, SO, SO SORRY.

 

On New Year's Eve he said he was going to stay at his mums by himself (she was working overnight) as he couldn't face a new year talking through our issues and I couldn't help bringing it up (i was still in shock about the whole thing)

 

She was working overnight i.e. all night, was she. Right. More confirmation. He's using this 'pressure' as his excuse because obviously 'pressure' is an excuse that has worked in terms of your accepting its plausibility. NEW YEARS' EVE, ffs. He was not alone, Sarah. He needed to be with the one he loved/lusted after on New Years Eve. And that wasn't you (and sod your kids at that point).

 

Yes, I'm not surprised you were in shock. Not surprised AT ALL.

 

I am DESPERATE to know who this Janine is. Why the beep wasn't JANINE the one to stay behind and babysit that 'couples night', eh? EH? Makes more sense, doesn't it? I should cocoa!

 

Now he had a bath and put reasonably nice clothes on (not going out clothes) which struck me as strange if he was gonna be by himself.

 

More evidence For cheating.

 

Sarah, it's beyond 'strange', isn't it, let's be honest. And it's not strange in the slightest when judged in the context of him cheating. Then it makes PERFECT SENSE. Right?

 

The thing is he was scratching around trying to find someone to spend new year with (most of his friends are my family). He rang Jonathan but he was busy (and I know it was Jonathan because he was using my phone having smashed his own)

 

Yes, and Jonathan (as his true friend, the 'only' person who cares about him (because he's truly LOYAL)), will be in on it... "I'll ring you and appear to be trying to persuade you to go out with me for NYE whilst you insist you can't....that way it looks like I have no-one else in the frame.... and I'll use HER mobile phone so that she can see it's genuinely you I called.... Got it? ("Got it!").... Thanks, Jonathan, you're a pal ("Any time, mate").

 

Seeing it? It's as clear as day.

 

You ARE a kind, accommodating woman, aren't you, Sarah, eh? There you are, all of you...unable to find a babysitter... everyone's getting disappointed but no-one is doing anything about it......... so: "I'll do it", you say.

 

No wonder he was bouncy. Janine?

 

After finding Jonathan busy he sat at the kitchen table and looked completely broken. He said "I have no one"

 

(Oh, cut the ham-acting job.) I now do not like your husband, Sarah. I do not like him at all.

 

I said "you have me" and I gestured into the living room where the kids were and I said "and you have them " and he had tears in his eyes and said "I know , and I am relying on them to get me through this"

 

(Oh, Puke.) The reason he had tears in his eyes was GUILT and a desperation to act in such a convincing way as would leave you securely in the dark over his cheating. (Who taught him to be able to act and turn on the manipulative tears like that? Mum, of course.) 'I know I have you and the kids and I feel terrible' is as 'I know I have you and the kids and I feel terrible' *DOES* - STAYS HOME WITH THEM ON NEW YEARS EVE OF ALL CRUCIAL FAMILY TIMES!!!

 

He took his giant bottle of whiskey to his mums

 

Oh, for god's sake. He should have just taken a ruddy box of condoms and been done with it!

 

and I was worried sick about him. He came back the next day and only had had a small amount of the whiskey .

 

Oh, how strange when there was two of them drinking it (NOT). Hung-over, was he? No, course he wasn't; he'd only had HALF.

 

He said it was the worst new year he ever spent and to be fair he didn't look like he had been having any type of a good time.

 

Well, what was he going to say? "I've had the best night of my life, whee-hee!!"?

 

So I really don't know. When I was speaking to my friend (the phone call that led to our row that led to him leaving for good) I had said about C having a bath to go to his mums for new year and that I wondered he he hadn't really gone somewhere else. That was part of the phone call C overheard and he said to me "I was at my mums that night - I had a bath to try to make me feel a little bit better about myself and you can think what you want"

 

He would say that, wouldn't he. But that explains why the anger over that call, doesn't it. If he gets angry with you, you'll cease that line of conversation with anyone, won't you.

 

And - right - like men ALWAYS are drawn to a nice bubbley bath (with their My Little Pony) when they want to feel better about themselves, don't they (not!).... right before spending an evening all on their own on New Year's Eve of all evenings as is long established as being the WORST thing you can do if you already feel terrible.

 

What a crock.

 

I can usually tell when he is lying - his eyes always give him away and he seemed to be telling the truth.

 

No, you can't. You can tell when he's lying USUALLY. This isn't USUALLY, is it. It's during a time of major duress and angst... and that is NOT conducive to clear thinking with all ones cylinders fully operational. Women who are being cheated on, before it hits them, always, ALWAYS make this mistake: they're in DefCon1 or 2 but don't realise it because it's taken hold so gradually as to have been imperceptible. They feel normal and as sharp, mentally, as ever. But they're not.

 

Sarah, you can tell he's lying when [1] you're not in the midst of THE most upsetting event of your life (not least because you're also in protect-the-kids low-lying panic mode) and [2] and when he's not in the midst of an HIGHLY risky situation, the serious 'death'-avoidance of which relies completely and utterly on his ability to act to a level worthy of an Oscar!

 

Even if he isn't in love with you any more (particularly because he's transferred his affections to the mistress), he still has a LOT to lose. A *LOT*. Possibly his kids, most of his wealth (putting paid to all his years of hard, hard work), his status (gone is the former marital home, here comes the dingy flat or bedsit), his material assets, his comfy retirement, his good relations with his in-laws, some of your mutual friends (if not all), his best friend (you), his childcare guidance officer (you), HIS BONA FIDE FATHERHOOD,.... the list, the ripples, extend farer and wider than one at the time imagines. This he needs to protect or pre-salvage.

 

He may think that by living at his mum's he can have his cake and eat it - remain having all the perks of a married man with kids AND be with another woman (if not actually live with) (or, yet) - but that's a typical error on the part of the immature (which we know he is).

 

You need to sit and have a long, hard think about this, Sarah, and get your head around it. He's either cheating or is aiming to cheat (.e.g on a web dating site on NYE) BUT - him not wanting to see your naked boobs is too much of a biggie in how it indicates loyalty towards another woman ALREADY. As is sprucing himself up just to spend a night (supposedly deliberately trying to depress himself) alone on NYE doing nothing more befitting of spruceness than sitting on the computer cruising/flirting. And ditto to needing the bottle of whisky. I mean - jesus, has the man zero sensitivity and empathy? Could he not have bought the whisky out of your eye shot at a shop en route to his mother's? And how do we even KNOW he was at his mother's house on NYE, anyway? Maybe that's WHY he ensured you'd see him take the whisky - it supported the ruse that he wasn't going where there'd be alcohol. You following me?

 

My personal take on it is that he does not have another woman but as he has lost all his weight and smartened himself up he quite likes the idea of being able to kind of sow his wild oats. I am the only woman he has ever slept with. That's my take on it - I may be totally wrong.

 

I'm not. Not usually. In fact, I don't think I've ever been wrong where spotting the symptoms of cheating was concerned. I was sat here all ready and revved up towards helping you get your husband back, and then BAM! - the comment about the boobs. I have no emotions tied up in this man nor emotional overwhelmment including panic, nothing to protect which could sway or cloud my thinking. You have.

 

Give yourself however much time you need to get your head around this, Sarah.

 

Sooooooooooo SORRY.

 

xoxo

[Supersarahp]

Sarah, you need to wait until I've answered every post of yours before you come in, please. I will answer each of them, even if only with 'noted'. xoxo

 

Sorry will try to be patient - I appreciate all your input. It is so helpful - I think I am just so deaperate to sort things out - will wait in future.

[Supersarahp]

Ok I have read through your reasoning and I get what you are saying. I am really unsure. I am a bit floored by it to be honest. I will run through the previous posts and answer the questions raised. I know you are convinced he is cheating now and I guess you may be/ probably are right and that is something I will have to face but can I explain a bit more first?

[Nattersmatter]

he'd only had HALF. Edit: sorry, that came out completely wrong: I meant, they'd not even had half each (because it was a prop to aid the impression of innocence; they drank booze in some bar somewhere)

 

I'm up to date now. But you don't need to apologise, I can imagine how uncontrollably impatient this will be making you. In fact, you're doing very well, considering.

 

Over to you.

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Sure, go ahead. xoxo

[Supersarahp]

Ok so going back to the previous questions.

 

He has not waned on the sex/ kissing front at all. He has been consistent throughout. Our sex life had dwindled a lot over the last 3 years really anyway - which was my fault as when I was feeling trapped etc I lost interest alot. Then when we did have sex he either came too fast or too slow. We did talk about it (this is going back months) I used to get really frustrated with him which was unfair. He stopped initiating sex so much because he said I always said no but we still had sex every month or so - not often granted. This kind of coincided with me working nights where I was always shattered and only at home in bed half the time. I wasn't often in the mood as such.

 

He did try in that way - kissing and cuddling and stuff. Right up to the day he "snapped" that never changed. Honestly hand on heart - he would always cuddle me - lots and lots. Like when I was washing up he would come up behind me and cuddle me. If I was walking past he would stop me and kiss me. RIGHT up until that day. I cuddled him a lot too.

 

The last time he full on snogged me was Boxing day. (he snapped on 28th) He was in the bathroom and I was getting something from the bedroom and as I was leaving the bedroom he cuddled me. I pushed him on the bed and cuddled him too. We were just messing around. I was lying on the bed and he was half standing up and my legs were like up by his shoulders (if that makes sense) He leaned down so he was practically on top of me and we were kissing (we were fully clothed I might add) He was kissing me and we had a full on snog but I stopped it because he had been eating pickles and I hate pickles. Also the kids were downstairs as was my nephew. We went downstairs and he brushed his teeth. We were standing in the kitchen and I gave him a cuddle and he cuddled me back. I tried to break off and he kept pulling me in for more cuddles and trying to kiss me - I kissed him back a few times but my nephew and kids were in the next room and the door was open (we never shut that door) so I felt a little awkward (in hindsight I should have gone with it maybe)

 

The day he said it was over we were talking a bit and he said that we hardly ever have sex and I said I knew it was a problem. I said I have been feeling really fat and unattractive (which is true as he lost weight while I gained it). He said he finds he is pleasuring himself more and more and it is getting ridiculous. He said it didn't matter to him that I had gained weight and he still found me attractive. He said whenever he tries to touch me intimately I act like I have an itch like it's a nuisance. I said I felt like my stomach was in the way and stuff and he said that was silly and he didn't care about that.

 

A couple of days after he ended things we were talking and I was saying how I would do anything to try to work things out. Just to kind of make light of the situation I said "I will give you a BJ everyday" and he lit up and said "that would be nice" and we laughed.

 

He never stopped being loving towards me until the 28th when he stopped letting me cuddle him etc. Like I said a few posts back - he said he wanted to but couldn't. It felt to me like he put a barrier up and was scared of letting it down. Like he was scared if he let me in then I would hurt him (again??) I suggested being friends with benefits (as a kind of joke again) and he said he couldn't do that as it would mess his head up.

 

With the boobs incident. To me it seemed like he was trying not to look. I don't know. When I lifted my top he just said "please Sarah" He looked like it was causing him distress in a way - I am not sure.

 

2 weeks ago when he told me he definitely was not coming back we had quite a long talk. He said he had been crying a lot by himself. I said I still thought we were supposed to be together and he replied "well if we are then it will happen won't it?". He said he felt like he wanted to give me a hug but was worried about it. So I said well do then. So I hugged him and he hugged back but only with one arm.

 

Up until the fateful 28th Dec he has slept in bed with me totally naked. So yes I have seen him naked right up to that point. I sleep in pyjamas or a t shirt usually. We have had plenty of naked cuddles right up until that date. So while the actual sex has dwindled there has always been some level of intimacy and that never changed.

Janine is my friend who I met when I worked nightshift. She is quite eccentric. She has just gone through a split of her own. She is always out looking for men etc. After this whole thing C said "I expect Janine will have you out on the pull" He said it with disdain. He also said he despises her. The reason she was on the night out was because she had been nagging me for ages. "are we going out at Christmas?" etc etc. C said she was a pain in the behind all night wanted to go to a place the rest did not want to.

 

With regards to Jonathan covering for C. I would be more shocked by that than by C cheating. I would trust Jonathan with my life. Seriously he would not cover up and lie like that I would bet my life on it. He did say that on the night out C told him that he feels like he can not do anything right when it comes to me.

 

I don't know - I am not saying he isn't cheating. I agree it is a real possibility and I accept that my vision is hugely clouded at the moment and I am probably in a state of denial.

 

Could it be a possibility that he has just put this huge barrier up because he is fed up of being rejected sexually and that he is scared to look at my boobs for example because he is scared it will weaken his resolve that we are over?

 

Maybe I am just clutching at straws I don't know.

[Nattersmatter]

Started to reply but I have to log off for a wee while to sort out my PC problems (still using hubbie's). Back a.s.a.p. xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

I can't find the time just right now (back after supper) but, it's probably just as well. Your head will be spinning by now. You need time to consider carefully whether or not all of his outward behaviour in word and deed to-date says For or Against cheating/about to cheat, as well as bear in mind that cheating is just the symptom of the underlying attitude turned doolally/rotten, meaning he could just as equally be avoiding the issues (and yourself) and refusing to reveal whether he has reconciliation or eventual divorce as his intention, by a sudden interest in hang-gliding. What having a mistress would mean, however, is serious, serious delay.

 

I know it's difficult to be completely honest with yourself over all the evidence when it's such a mind-blowing possibility to face all in one hit, but do try as you appraise said clues and evidence to leave your hopes, dreams and fears right out of it if you can.

 

Back soon.

 

xoxo

[Supersarahp]

Ok so I know that you haven't replied to my last post yet but I wanted to update this latest exchange before I forget. I don't think I handled it very well.

 

Ok so I got home from work and he was "asleep" in the chair. I said hi and so did he. Said a couple of mundane trivial things and arranged the child care for the next week (as it is half term)

 

Then he asked me what we were going to do about Liam's birthday (our youngest child - 5 on 28th Feb) so I said I did not know and what were his thoughts. The conversation then went roughly like this:

 

C: I don't know so I wanted to know what you thought.

 

Me: well I honestly don't know because I would like us to do something together for him but you are the one who has been uncomfortable around me so you need to be the one who kind of makes that decision. I looked at parties locally as I can't drive and I did not know what you were thinking.

 

C: well I am off on Sundays so we could do it on a Sunday.

 

Me: well how are we doing it? Do you wanna go halves?

 

C: well if I pay for the party and you do the cake and party bags like we normally do?

 

Me: ok sounds good

 

C: do you mind if my mum comes?

 

Me: why do you want your mum there?

 

C: for moral support

 

Me: well I don't think that is fair - why can't we just do it together? It is only an hour. Surely you can be around me for an hour for our sons birthday party. It make me feel ganged up on if your mum has to be there.

 

C: it is only for the time being to get through this occasion. It may not always be like this. I just don't feel comfortable to be around you at the moment.

 

Me: well I don't understand why. I don't have an issue with your mum coming but I need to understand why you feel the need for her to be there?

 

C: well maybe you can do the party and I will do something separate for Liam?

 

Me: well how am I going to do that when I don't have a car? I don't have an issue with your mum but I just don't understand the reason why.

 

So we talked a bit about doing separate things but got nowhere with it. In the end I said

 

Me: look lets just do the party together and your mum can be there if that's the only way you are gonna feel comfortable.

 

C: no because that's not fair on you.

 

Me: well I can rise above that for the sake of our son. It is more important to me that he has a good birthday. So let your mum be there I am big enough and ugly enough to handle it. Book the party we will do it together and out on a united front and then maybe in the future you won't feel the need to have her there every time cos moving forward we need to be around each other comfortably. I am not willing to let them have the situation that you had where your parents can't even be in the same room as each other.

You are the one who dumped me not the other way around. You act like you can't bear to be around me. Like I have dumped you but I didn't so why are you so uncomfortable around me?

 

C: so anyway going back to the party.

 

Me: if we are ever going to be on good terms you are going to have to tell me what the problem is.

Spit it out what do you think I am going to do? The way you act makes me feel like I have done something terrible to you but I haven't. There is something inside you making you feel like this about me so what is it?

 

While I said all that he was sitting there looking meek scared and wounded.

 

C: ok so I will book a party then for a Sunday and I better get going now.

 

S: ok so how am I going to get to the party then

 

C: either me or my mum will pick you up.

 

S: and what are we doing about his presents - buying separate ones?

 

C: yes

 

S: ok see you Saturday then (when he is having the kids)

 

C: ok see you soon

[Nattersmatter]

Back. I'll take them in order, wait up...

 

xoxo

[Nattersmatter]

Ok so going back to the previous questions.

 

He has not waned on the sex/ kissing front at all. He has been consistent throughout. Our sex life had dwindled a lot over the last 3 years really anyway - which was my fault as when I was feeling trapped etc I lost interest alot. Then when we did have sex he either came too fast or too slow. We did talk about it (this is going back months) I used to get really frustrated with him which was unfair. He stopped initiating sex so much because he said I always said no but we still had sex every month or so - not often granted. This kind of coincided with me working nights where I was always shattered and only at home in bed half the time. I wasn't often in the mood as such.

 

Okay, just so's you know where I'm coming from and how things go: This isn't a biggie symptom. Not every affair has to be sexual, in which case sex WON'T necessarily be a symptoms origin. However, it will be a marital and emotional barometer...this case, having dwindled beyond what is 'reasonable' as well as the premature or delayed ej***lation. The sex life may not alter as or after the affair starts. The spouse might be using the affair to address/augment other missing components of the relationship as made him unhappy. It may, for example, be a relationship that mainly only provides missing RESPECT AND ADMIRATION (men's greatest need on their Needs List). Whether he has just cause for that expectation thus unhappiness or whether what he chooses to address it is acceptable, is another matter, of course.

 

...But as it CAN be an origin, it was worth checking.

 

 

It's not 'unfair'. The 'unfair' bit - to the relationship - was why these issues never got raised in the open verbally whereby they DIDN'T become acted-out.

 

Was that once per month down to the fact you were ovulating and particularly in the mood?

 

 

He did try in that way - kissing and cuddling and stuff. Right up to the day he "snapped" that never changed. Honestly hand on heart - he would always cuddle me - lots and lots. Like when I was washing up he would come up behind me and cuddle me. If I was walking past he would stop me and kiss me. RIGHT up until that day. I cuddled him a lot too.

 

He was TRYING at that point to save the relationship, then. At that point.

 

However, as I'm sure you can appreciate, all of this including those troubled years prior will have set the scene re making him highly susceptible to an affair.

 

 

The last time he full on snogged me was Boxing day. (he snapped on 28th)

 

Okay, not a good sign. And please understand that when firmly established couples separate with a view to repairing the relationship, they both appreciate the importance of not allowing inevitable and automatic emotional detachment/serious alienation to affect meantime, meaning they will endeavour to maintain physical affection, often even the sex... they will usually use the time to DATE one another. The want merely enough distance whereby dealing with their problems more calmly is possible through each having their own separate bolt-hole and thinking space.

 

I can understand being incapable of sharing affection during the peak of his overwhelmment but that should- nay, WOULD have eased considerably, and relatively quickly, after having left, whereby he should have been ready to be affectionate or sexual again. So he is not endeavouring to preserve the relationship, is he... not LEAST when he basically says the thought of you with another man would neither upset him nor be ANY OF HIS BUSINESS.

 

When you are the person's lover, it obviously IS - totally - utterly - your business.

 

And you spend NYE, you ARE COMPELLED to spend NYE, with the one you love most.

 

Other woman or no other woman, he is over you as his romantic partner, Sarah. He grieved whilst still in the relationship and the remainder that matters and affects, during the period directly after he left.

 

I think he's either:

1.a) Keeping you as back-up in case he changes his mind/the new relationship proves dissatisfactory when given more opportunities to be together

1.b) Keeping you from feeling you have enough cause to start divorce proceedings.

2) Enjoying having you helpless and at his mercy (for once); it'll be a huge boost to his sense of flailing power and ego as well as a way to spend his years-worth banked-up resentment.

 

The point, demonstrated perfectly by that (on his part wholly avoidant and slippery) conversation about your son's party is to keep you in Limbo. But be warned that men who wish to hide a portion of the marital wealth from the court (the barristers back-tracking attempts (forensic, if there's a lot of wealth involved), will do this. Whilst you're caught in uncertainty and indecision and holding off on seeking a legal consultation visit, the man has time to move and hide the money around. By the time the financial sitting of your divorce hearing comes around, and what with barristers having only a standard 6 months to track back by, the money trail by then will be long gone. I'm talking: friends or parents getting 'gifts' of big cheques which they then 'gift' back following the Decree Absolut, creation and xfer to off-shore accounts, purchases (so that liquid assets becomes fixed)... you name it, they try it. Where finances are modest, this means the man will oh-so-conveniently be fired or made redundant in the nick of time. This is by secret arrangement with the boss (the ol' boys network kicking in), meaning he's re-hired but as a freelancer... oft paid by cash. This makes it nigh-on impossible for regular on-paper wages to be quantified or qualified which in turn forces the court to set an amount of spousal and child maintenance based only on the figure they CAN prove... which is generally not a lot compared to what he's actually earning. The wife then has to drastically downsize after the sale of the former marital home... whilst matey, enfuriatingly and outrageously enough, sits prettily in his detached house, with enough money to remarry and sprog more kids. Appeal based on such 'curious' extravagance, costs the wife upwards of £20k. And if the financial paper doesn't back up her claim (which it won't - because hired accountants know what they're doing), meaning she cannot prove her appeal case, she pays not only her own court costs but his. (Do NOT get me started on the injusticies of our outdated Family Law system which is unfair to either sex regarding any given aspect but especially to women where FAIR financial settlement is concerned!).

 

If you really cannot face making a consultation appointment I URGE you to at least start preparing including collecting as much Hildebrand evidence as you can find!

 

And question (as will indicate whether he's deliberately keeping you paralysed for court-delaying purposes): Has he removed all of his financial paperwork yet (current and savings bank and c/card statements, receipts, bills, share certificates, etc., especially personal items paid for by company c/card or expense account)? If not - take it to a printer's and get it photocopied. It'll take you hours but won't cost much.

 

Be aware: the amount of women who swear blind that their husband had no savings/assets or was earning only X amount per annum, and that they were always living within or beyond their financial means, yadder-yadder, only to find it was serious, SERIOUS under-exaggeration and spin is astonishing (appalling, in fact)!

 

Not saying any of this is your case but - forewarned is forearmed and all that. Be a good Girl Guide (be prepared) and you'll thank yourself majorly for it a few years down the line by finding yourself RICHER rather than poorer. But there is nothing to lose and EVERYTHING to gain by having a meeting with a family law solicitor as soon as possible, not LEAST for the massive confidence boost it gives you. You have no idea of how powerful you actually are, Sarah. Have that consultation and you soon will! For a start, there are four of you and one of him. Nuff said. He is the one who stands to lose the most when talking about what means a lot to HIM.

 

Alternatively, keeping you in a state of uncertainty as to what his intentions are (reconciliation or irreconciliation) can be a way to make you ADAPT AND DESENSITISE to his cake-and-eat-it situation whereby you're just happy to have your husband or the kids' father back, REGARDLESS of there being another woman now ensconsed on his side. I had dealings with a woman who put up with this situation for (hope you're sitting down?) 17 NON-STOP YEARS(!!!). It destroyed her, chip by chip by little chip... Anti-depressants and sleeping pills a permanent feature, no self-confidence, prematurely aged face and body, skin and bone (enough to make an anoretic panic and head for the cream cakes!), no joie de vivre whatsoever... half dead already.

 

But there again, I know of more women who have come out of it, whatever the outcome, smelling totally of roses and far happier and life-inspired in all aspects than they ever knew possible! Not many of those had stayed with their husband, though, I have to be honest.

 

...Otherwise, as I say, he is buying time and manipulatively retaining the control as exclusively his so that only HE gets to decide whether and when reconciliation happens or not.

 

Despite you don't engage negatively or play ego-poker (point scoring and batting back) and remain sadly accepting and passive, you must set a deadline in your head, a point whereat any prolongation of his shilly-shallying under the pretext of, 'Oooh, the pressure, I have to keep away from the pressure, boo-hoo' (when, if you think about it - he managed to withstand much greater pressure before without having to walk out!), you say nothing but make that solicitor's appointment and start the divorce process.

 

It is piss-easy for a man to persuade his wife to abandon her petition regardless of having been lodged. And by persuasion, I'm not talking him playing for more time via manoeuvring her by pushing her buttons and pulling her levers, AND ESPECIALLY NOT THOSE OF THE KIDS OR YOU AS THEIR MOTHER, either. I'm talking - 'Right, I'm coming home NOW and all normal programmes will resume as we work together to mend this marriage, NOW!'

 

Anyway... back to your story..

 

He was in the bathroom and I was getting something from the bedroom and as I was leaving the bedroom he cuddled me. I pushed him on the bed and cuddled him too. We were just messing around. I was lying on the bed and he was half standing up and my legs were like up by his shoulders (if that makes sense) He leaned down so he was practically on top of me and we were kissing (we were fully clothed I might add) He was kissing me and we had a full on snog but I stopped it because he had been eating pickles and I hate pickles. Also the kids were downstairs as was my nephew. We went downstairs and he brushed his teeth. We were standing in the kitchen and I gave him a cuddle and he cuddled me back. I tried to break off and he kept pulling me in for more cuddles and trying to kiss me - I kissed him back a few times but my nephew and kids were in the next room and the door was open (we never shut that door) so I felt a little awkward (in hindsight I should have gone with it maybe)

 

He by now knows full well you hate pickle breath. This indicates him setting himself up, as well as you, like this: "Show me you love me (damn you!) and are desperate enough by now that you want me even when I do THIS!" And yet it's a self-sabotaging act because by HAVING pickle breath (of all things!) he seriously lowers his chances of success. This, to me, smacks of part of the process of demonizing you that cheaters-abandoners undergo ("See?-See? She's a COW! She won't even SNOG me!")

 

But he'll be in conflict thus open to EITHER being proven right OR wrong that you're 'a cow'.

 

You responded to that (to you) obvious ploy with understandable vexation and resentment ("Why pickle breath and why THEN when you KNOW I hate pickle breath!...*and* when you know we can't because kids and nephew are within earshot and in our care!").

 

It's feeling too obvious, even to himself - despite he himself doesn't even understand his own subconscious agenda - so he brushes his teeth and tries again in order to vindicate himself. But it's too late. He's pissed you off and you need time to get over it. So - positive feedback no longer an option, it's back to demonizing....and he pushes... and pushes... like a sex pest whom thereby is guaranteed to be moreover rejected... because 'you're a cow'.

 

Demonization module X, completed. Let the oh-so-convenient "snapping" commence.

 

The day he said it was over we were talking a bit and he said that we hardly ever have sex and I said I knew it was a problem. I said I have been feeling really fat and unattractive (which is true as he lost weight while I gained it). He said he finds he is pleasuring himself more and more and it is getting ridiculous.

 

Yes, it IS ridiculous, that anything and everything is attempted rather than the simplest, easiest remedy of DISCLOSING AND DISCUSSING. But what is also ridiculous is that this is his retort to your obvious crisis of physical confidence (bit like his reaction to your pregnancy announcement is, 'That's it, I'm getting the snip!'). WHERE WAS THE TENDING OF YOUR NEED FOR REASSURANCE *BEFORE* THE MENTION OF HIS NEEDS INCONVENIENCES??? Does the man not have too little empathy? Is he always this me-me-me? Because here you are, having ZERO problems disclosing to me, a virtual stranger, no matter how personal! How IS that, Sarah? How is it you're the total opposite of a clam and yet you effectively are with him? Emphasis on 'effectively'. It's obvious, isn't it: with wholly discouraging or downright brick-wall-erecting retorts like THAT one day after week after month after year after decade, who WOULD feel like inviting any more nigh-on antipathy and proof of such self-centredness?

 

Edit: (to be continued...)