Confused and Alone

[Lester]

I don't see anything jumping off the page here. Yea you have problems but they don't seem huge.

 

Jealousy is a normal reaction and we all have it...keeping it in check is all you need to know about it. (You do very well.)

Control issues before she began her sleepovers are the true control issues. Not after she is leaving. What were they?

 

How did you talk to her three years ago? Like a child, daughter?

What are some of the things she wanted you to change about yourself three years ago?

Were there incompatibility issues before you married.

 

 

P.S. There is always a chance this is not about you. Your wife could just be a head case. Either way... keep changing.

[Lester]

How can he be a loving husband while being aloof?

 

There’s hundred’s…. here’s one.

 

With new clothing, hair, teeth, etc.

While talking, face to face, look at her eyes.

Carefully listen but offer few, if any verbal replies. Non-Verbal is much better.

Remember exactly every word she is says for use at a later date.

After, let’s say an hour. Look at the clock and say I got run. It’s been great talking to you and would love to continue tomorrow.

Kiss her lovingly on the cheek and smile as you look into her eyes briefly.

Stand to leave.

If she asks where you are going…

 

BE VAUGE.

 

DO NOT OFFER ANYTHING MORE.

 

DISAPPEAR

 

Hope this helps tresqua

[GrowingIn]

I don't want to get in the middle of you too, because it seems you have some plan together and some progress was made. But I feel I need to say this much. I think if you are going to continue Lester's advice, you really need to begin to adopt the attitude that all this is, is an experiment and you DON'T want her back. If you do all this stuff, get your hopes up and fail to get your ex back you will crash.

 

As in I was controlling in the factor that while I never forbid her from visiting friends I never really wanted her to go mainly because she would go over there drink and stay the night and jealous that she would want to go over there instead of spending more time with me.

 

Yep I have had the same problem and still do. I can be jealous and controlling and while it is great that Lester is helping you with these issues, you also need to be sure you are NOT betraying yourself either and your own principles and you don't go 180 in the opposite direction. Even if it is something someone else may consider controlling. Personally, I am with you 100% and I don't care if I am considered controlling. If I have to be ok with letting my wife go out and get drunk somewhere else and spend the night in order for me to keep her....she can just go screw herself! I'll be more than happy to help her along in her divorce.

 

I would not change that much for someone. In fact I think you were far too liberal with her if you were cool with that. I don't view that as a normal thing at all. It's totally not cool for your wife to get drunk and spend the nights at her friends house, and if that's the kind of freedom she needs, she's just not marriage material man. Yes I would actually FORBID my own wife from doing that, not just complain about it, and I could care less what anyone would say about me being like that. That would be a deal breaker for me. As a matter of fact my ex-wife as well as my future wife if there ever comes another, will be the type of woman that would never even think of doing something like that or expect a husband to be cool with that. And honestly, she is causing you to feel insecure, jealous and controlling just as much as your own insecurities. There's nothing wrong with you for feeling that way in a situation like that. Don't take all the blame for that, because her behavior has a lot to do with it.

 

That's why it is so important to find a person that shares principles and beliefs with you. For example, personally I would never marry a woman that drinks and does drugs. Period. Forget insecurity. It's just plain disrespectful to you and herself, imo.

 

You really need to consider if this is the type of person you even want to be married to and you ever really want her back. Would you be cool in being the type of husband that's alright with his wife binge drinking with her friends? Is that the type of marriage you are shooting for? Just my two cents.

[hollowed454]

I don't see anything jumping off the page here. Yea you have problems but they don't seem huge.

 

Jealousy is a normal reaction and we all have it...keeping it in check is all you need to know about it. (You do very well.)

Control issues before she began her sleepovers are the true control issues. Not after she is leaving. What were they?

 

How did you talk to her three years ago? Like a child, daughter?

What are some of the things she wanted you to change about yourself three years ago?

Were there incompatibility issues before you married.

 

 

P.S. There is always a chance this is not about you. Your wife could just be a head case. Either way... keep changing.

 

That's part of the problem while granted we do have some problems but I haven't seen anything big enough that we should divorce over. Our problems I think could be worked out. Which is part of what makes all this confusing. She said she feels like the line that separates her from me has become blurry and feels as if she has started to become like me.

 

There really wasn't that I'm aware of right off hand. The only thing I really know of is that I was insistent of knowing her friends. She never really left the house previously. If she wanted to go see family she went and seen family. Sometimes she went alone and sometimes I went with her. When she started this job she works now is when the sleep overs started. I expressed not liking the factor that she wanted to go over there and stay the night because I like having her home at night. I attempted to compromise by saying I would drop her off and pick her back up. I thought it was good because in that instance she gets to go spend time with her friends and I get to have the peace of mind of having her home at night. Two days after that she started mentioning wanting space but no divorce or separation.Which that was when I attempted to compromise. 4 days after saying she wanted space she came in out of nowhere and said she talked to her brother and was moving out and was 95% sure she wants a divorce. The whole time during this whole process she continued to act happy and as if nothing was wrong. One thing that she did mention once is it doesn't matter what's going on she always finds a reason to be unhappy.

 

I'm not real sure honestly. I feel like the way I talk to her hasn't changed but I am aware that I'm not the same person I was when we met. Over time I've just kind of worn down. She says I was happier before we got married. Stress,finances and working with some of the issues she has as well as my own family issues took a toll on me I won't deny that. My wife as said is bi polar but she doesn't take medication because she always feels zombified on them and thus doesn't want to take them. During the time she mentioned wanting space she did say she thinks she needs to be on medication again. her mother told me once that when my wife was a child the doctors wanted her on lithium.

 

I know that we didn't share the same financial responsibilities. As far as finances go I had to pretty well handle the majority just to make sure they got paid because the small ones I did give her would get behind a lot.

 

Back before we got married she never acted like she wanted to change anything about me. She would always say I was perfect just the way I am. I know one thing that she doesn't like is when a problem arises I do tend to talk it to death in one sitting. Which I would usually do that because she would say what the problem was and leave it there then I have to dig around to try to find out more about it. We always got along great with no major issues. She never really had anything. Not even a driver's license. I was actually the one who taught her to drive. Got her first car for her. Basically did everything that happens to a lot of people when they are teenagers and not in their 20's.

[Lester]

You said, "Which I would usually do that because she would say what the problem was and leave it there then I have to dig around to try to find out more about it." You cannot be her "Johnny on the spot" anymore... In a nice way.

 

Growing said, "If I have to be ok with letting my wife go out and get drunk somewhere else and spend the night in order for me to keep her....she can just go screw herself! I'll be more than happy to help her along in her divorce."

I agree and like the***** herself part. But if you still want to save you’re marriage you’re going have to temper it... IE (I've gone as low as I am going to go with you...you continue down into the slime without me.)

 

At this point all I can do is pretty much listen. I've told you everything. After listening all I can do is pull you back..

 

I willing to keep listening... don't expect miracles just hard work.

[tresqua]

There’s hundred’s…. here’s one.

 

With new clothing, hair, teeth, etc.

While talking, face to face, look at her eyes.

Carefully listen but offer few, if any verbal replies. Non-Verbal is much better.

Remember exactly every word she is says for use at a later date.

After, let’s say an hour. Look at the clock and say I got run. It’s been great talking to you and would love to continue tomorrow.

Kiss her lovingly on the cheek and smile as you look into her eyes briefly.

Stand to leave.

If she asks where you are going…

 

BE VAUGE.

 

DO NOT OFFER ANYTHING MORE.

 

DISAPPEAR

 

Hope this helps tresqua

 

That's not being aloof, that's being busy.

 

I agree with the concept -even though it involves a LOT of game playing and fakery to fool the other person into taking you back-

 

I just don't agree with the terminology.

[hollowed454]

Yah I know. It's one of the things we've talked about before being that I need to know all that is going on with a problem in order to help her fix it.

 

Currently being separated I've let go of my own control in a situation as far as not being able to say no I would like to have you here at night instead of staying elsewhere. Which I don't think it's asking a lot just to be home at night. I don't drink so bar scenes and such aren't for me anymore.

 

I know I got a lot of work to do here to get her back. My wife has her flaws (we all do) but I love the person she is despite them and to get the marriage back on track I think is going to fall on me. I think only thing I can do is make changes to myself to draw her back in and try to get to the bottom of the problem areas to correct them.

[Lester]

That's not being aloof, that's being busy.

 

I agree with the concept -even though it involves a LOT of game playing and fakery to fool the other person into taking you back-

 

I just don't agree with the terminology.

 

–adjective

2. reserved or reticent; indifferent; disinterested: Because of his shyness, he had the reputation of being aloof.

[Lester]

Yes... it's the only chance you got. Let it fall on you....

[tresqua]

Lester, here you define aloof, which is what you tell the Op he should be:

 

reserved or reticent; indifferent; disinterested

 

But you also told him to do this:

 

While talking, face to face, look at her eyes.

Carefully listen but offer few, if any verbal replies. Non-Verbal is much better. It's been great talking to you and would love to continue tomorrow.

Kiss her lovingly on the cheek and smile as you look into her eyes briefly.

 

I think your advice is contradictory and confusing especially to a guy who is lost and grasping at straws.

[hollowed454]

Long sleepless night....found out my wife has been lying to me. My wife sent me a text yesterday saying I'm not going to be over today I'm staying at (friends name)...so I went to visit my brother in law since she wasn't going to be there. I park my car accross the street from his house in a parking lot because of the way his street is. So anyways I'm sitting over there and guess who's pulls up....and there's a guy driving her....She doesn't know I saw the guy out there...yet....she came in saying her friend brought her by to get some clothes...I badly want to confront her about this. I told my BIL what I saw and he sincerely didn't know. He said she pays rent there so he doesn't ask what she's doing or where she's going. He said the only thing he's told her about all this is that if she's sleeping with anyone or thinking of sleeping with anyone don't do it till this divorce is final. I believe him he's always been pretty straight with me. He said he told her that I would never forgive her if she was when we separated....

[Lester]

Lester, here you define aloof, which is what you tell the Op he should be:

 

 

 

But you also told him to do this:

 

 

 

I think your advice is contradictory and confusing especially to a guy who is lost and grasping at straws.

 

Yep, it’s not intuitive or easy. Maybe the best way for you to understand it would be typical behavior during the dating process.

 

How do you treat someone you want to date or have dated once or twice? Do you hang all over them or smother them? Explain all your failings. Look like a broken man in old clothing?

 

The most successful daters are always aloof.

 

I know he's grasping and how much it hurts him... but graspers drive people away from them.

 

PS, Is it a game? Absolutely!

[hollowed454]

I don't have to mention it anymore...she text me randomly just to say I've realized I care about you but I'm not in love with you anymore...what a way to get a morning started...

[Lester]

You don't know what you saw and it really doesn’t matter. (I know your heart is breaking...be brave.)

 

Keep improving.

 

If you would like...start planning your new life without her. You may have to.

[Lester]

I don't have to mention it anymore...she text me randomly just to say I've realized I care about you but I'm not in love with you anymore...what a way to get a morning started...

 

Do something today for you. Go shopping. Call/visit a friend. Fishing, walking, dog, etc. Hang in there.

 

PS Do not integrate her. Do not let her see you down. Do not do anything rash. You might have to start thinking about an attorney.

[Lester]

Aside from other separated/divorced persons, no one can know your pain. We all hear about these things and many times even joke about them... "Big deal, he/she will be better off without that person in their life. She/he was a creep, flake, druggie, etc."

 

Oh yeah…Easy said. Once it hits close to home it’s a different story.

 

There's nothing funny or uplifting about marriages failing...even the worst ones.

 

Hang in there

[tresqua]

Yep, it’s not intuitive or easy. Maybe the best way for you to understand it would be typical behavior during the dating process.

 

It's not typical behavior to act aloof while also acting loving and interested. The point I was trying to make, (which is now being beaten into the ground) is that you are giving this poster contradictory and poor advice to tell him to act uninterested and indifferent when he is with her.

 

I'm going to take the bold step of "amending" your suggestion to make it more useful,as some of your ideas are good. What this guy needs to do is act more calm, independent, and confident, and make it appear that he's got lots of other things going on in his life and pining after her is not a priority, and yes it's a game however telling him to act "indifferent" and "uninterested" when he is with her is just a very bad idea. Their time together needs to be brief, leaving her wanting more, not thinking that the guy couldn't care less about her.

 

Edited to add

 

It's probably inconsequential at least for this guy, given his latest posts on this thread:

 

So anyways I'm sitting over there and guess who's pulls up....and there's a guy driving her....She doesn't know I saw the guy out there...yet....

 

Don't confront her, it's pointless. She'll either outright deny or she'll say "yeah you got me, I'm having an affair with him and we're done".

 

Looks like you gotta face the harsh reality that it's over and it really doesn't matter whether or not she's having sex with the guy or not. The stalking behavior just has to stop. Spend the time you're saving by not sitting in parking lots waiting for her and the other guy to show up, on improving yourself and preparing for what may be an ugly legal battle.

[Lester]

Tresqua, You said, "It's not typical behavior to act aloof while also acting loving and interested."

I did it and it saved my marriage.

 

I’m not a professional…just a normal guy trying to help someone save their marriage.

 

Maybe were just stuck on a play of words. Either way let’s get it back to helping the original poster. If you have any ideas offer them directly to him.

[GrowingIn]

I was afraid it would lead here as I have been keeping up with it too and rooting for him. I don't want to be Mr. Negativity but once again, the main reason advice and guides and books don't work when it comes to getting someone back is this: You have to be able to do those things NATURALLY. The guy that did that, and it worked for him, and then wrote the book about it, probably did all of those steps on his own accord, on his own will power, based on his own intuition and feelings. Lester it probably worked for you because you were already that type of guy so you were able to assimilate the techniques. You don't know what type of guy hollowed454 is. For the rest of us these things are better applied and have a better chance of working when you are IN the relationship when you first get that feeling in your gut. Because let's face it. Most of us know now and the rest will learn later, that most women break up with us months and sometimes years before they actually get the courage to say it. This is a fact. You have already done the wrong things for months, followed by the wrong things for awhile post break up. That is true.

 

That's why most people fail. Also the woman that left you probably has a pretty good idea who you are at this point(including how you would probably react to the break up), and nothing you will do in the span of a month or two will convince her unless it truly is genuine. She will just take everything you are doing as you "acting" because she will see right through it, making even a "proper" way of getting her back, no different than the begging, and pleading like everyone else does. To her it's still an act because to YOU this is still an act. She will see you as trying to be strong instead of being strong. It might work if you GENUINELY believe and GENUINELY become the guy in the book and literally be 100% ok with not wanting her back if you fail. Are you GENUINELY ok with her having an affair and you truly being able to get over that? That's not the impression I'm getting here.

 

I remember when things started going bad with my ex and we started fighting about 5 months prior to us breaking up I was on the internet looking at: "how do you know if your woman still loves you" articles because I couldn't figure out how to get her to be loving towards me. She fit all the categories. I got down on myself and I got mad, because I realized here I am, once again, the one looking at how to get them back. So I said screw it I'm tired of always being in this situation and having to be the one that works my ass off to maintain the relationship and I basically let things go and spiral downward. Why can't "they" be the ones reading this stuff if they really care about me. In hindsight, THAT was the moment when I wish I would have applied Lester's advice instead of saying "screw it". Because it was around that time she had broken up with me, at least emotionally anyway, and stopped seeing a future with me. Everything ever since it was her using me to plan her escape, denying anything was wrong, while observing me to see if I make the right moves. I knew it, I saw it, and I allowed it to happen, because I didn't know what to do. In my case maybe this could have worked, because at least I was FULLY aware of every step she was getting ready to do and could predict her behavior(I knew what was coming). I just had no answer for it. But I had plenty of time to become this guy and try.

 

But now that she dumped me, nothing short of NC, maintaining my composure if I ever have contact with her, and moving on will bring about anything positive for me because it's really all up to her. All I have to decide now is if I at some point want to be friend zoned, or if I'm cool with her coming to me only when she needs something. Which I'm not. So I ignore.

 

So I'm going to help by suggesting you begin comforting your pain a little instead of just ignoring it. I'm just concerned you will wear yourself out because you haven't taken any time to take care of yourself and I am afraid you will suffer heavily later. If you can simply be ok with all of this being an "experiment" then keep going, but if you have gotten your hopes up, then I'd really reconsider if you should continue.

[tresqua]

^^ This is a damn good post right here.

[hollowed454]

Looks like you gotta face the harsh reality that it's over and it really doesn't matter whether or not she's having sex with the guy or not. The stalking behavior just has to stop. Spend the time you're saving by not sitting in parking lots waiting for her and the other guy to show up, on improving yourself and preparing for what may be an ugly legal battle.

 

I don't. Her brother and I have always talked a lot so I go over there to talk to him most of the time when he tells me she's not there and doesn't expect her in or anything. I'm not going to bother mentioning the other guy or anything anymore. At this point it's kind of useless after I have heard the dreaded words of I care about you but not in love with you

[hollowed454]

At this point I can honestly say I don't believe she will come back. The reasons behind leaving keep changing up. It was I need space....I need to be free...I don't love you anymore...I've been unhappy for a long while and tried to convince myself I was....We don't go out enough ...to which the last one I can honestly say that i tried to make plans on several occasions wanting to take her out or to a movie or whatever and upon making plans she would say I don't want to go anywhere I just want to sit around the house. It's like she's trying to find reasons.

 

I don't believe that the not getting out is the reasoning behind all this. if it is it's a really dumb reason to me to divorce over something easily fixed. I believe she's hurting inside whether it be from her low self esteem or her thinking of that she's not good enough for anyone. I don't know exactly what is causing her to hurt and chances are she isn't going to tell me. While granted I contributed to that and didn't realize it but without knowing and her acting like everything is just fine with no real change in sex life or anything I remained clueless and it hit me out of the blue.

 

We really had it out earlier till I finally took myself out of the equation. She called me at 10 to further clarify some things that wasn't anything to note. Just her basically saying again that she doesn't care about me. Her saying that she wants out because we don't go anywhere. Some of the things she said happened nothing like how she said they happened. It's like she took an instance and swapped it around to where it was much worse than it actually was. I mentioned to her that maybe she should just get started back on her bi polar medication and address this at another time. She started saying that she controls her bi polar without medication and she obviously doesn't. Eventually I just had to tell her look I'm not going to do this over the phone and it's really not worth getting into right now. I'll shoulder a lot of the blame for our relationship because for the most part it's what I've always done. Even last night her brother was saying your a good guy. Our dad would forgive you for not taking care of her because he knows how she is. You got to quit thinking your responsible for her now. She's going to wake up one day and find out that she let you get get away and when she starts falling that your not there to catch her. She goes out of her way to find something to be unhappy about it's not your fault

 

Then she text me again at her lunch break saying she hopes we can be friends because she may not be in love with me anymore but she still cares about me. It was really a 180 from how she was acting earlier. She must be on her own roller coaster ride here and I'm just sitting passenger with her at the moment and I feel like I really need to get off the ride but at the same time the part of me that has taken care of her for several years now says I still need to be here for her even though she acts like I'm not wanted.

 

When she told me that earlier I actually started packing up some of her stuff for her. I'm still tossing the idea around of just not talking to her at all. While I know some of this is about stuff I've done I have to wonder if she has just finally gone off the deep end. I've seen her in some pretty bad bi polar cycles before but if this is what is going on it's been the worst one yet. during our marriage I've had to deal with a lot really. I've had to be the adult more or less because she is irresponsible a lot and left to her own devices will self destruct.

 

Sure I would love to save the marriage but I just feel like no matter what I do she's not going to care. She tends to start missing people who aren't in her life anymore which is another reason why I thought maybe I just need to drop off the radar or something to get her to come to her senses.

[tresqua]

I thought maybe I just need to drop off the radar or something to get her to come to her senses.

 

It doesn't work that way. You are committing the most common fallacy by thinking that going no contact will win your ex back.

[hollowed454]

It doesn't work that way. You are committing the most common fallacy by thinking that going no contact will win your ex back.

 

I can work on myself getting myself back together but at this point I don't really know what else to do here. Obviously trying to reason with her isn't going to work. I thought we started making some progress in our relationship and obviously she decided we needed to back to square 1 with this thing. Ahh heck were probably in the (-) at the moment.

[GrowingIn]

Tresqua I don't think he's saying he wants to do it to win her back, at least I don't think.

 

I have a different view on things. If she was having an affair before or she quickly jumped for someone else this is the kind of stuff that HURTS in addition to the fact she's giving up on her marriage. Honestly these are, IMO, the type of things marriages end over. I don't believe in many, but this is one.

 

And while some guys have the strength, and will power, to overlook and overcome their wife having an affair with someone else, or leaving them for someone else, or just plain leaving them in the first place(aka abandonment which is no different then cheating, hurts just as much as cheating and is actually the primary reason for divorce), others just don't or perhaps won't out of principle. And most of the time the women know this as well. Most of the time it's respect that is lost. And for those in these situations, showing strength could very much mean suffering in silence, NC, moving on and rebuilding self respect while turning your back on them. Because the fact is, it probably hurt you deeply. The fact is you will become resentful. And the fact is, even though there may be issues you need to fix, she does too, but it doesn't change the fact she's the one quitting on the marriage. It sounds like in your mind you believe the issues she's leaving you for are not the type to give up on a marriage, and I agree. You were on the right path as far as improving yourself. Continue improving yourself and leave her out of it. And if she wants to come back to you she will. And if she does, you be the judge of whether or not she shows remorse, wants to work on it and respects you again. You be the judge whether she has made the changes she needed to and respects herself, you, and above all what it means to be married. And you be the judge of whether next time she would be willing to work on issues with you, and address them early(not sure if this happened or not) so as to never allow the relationship to end up here.

 

If you believe you did your part in the marriage, with faults or not, there is no way to really ever get your wife back without letting her go to realize years later she may have missed out on a good thing. That's really about the only time they honestly do. And that's the only way you would ever feel secure about it again, and the way she handles divorce will have a lot to do with whether you would ever even consider it. She needs to come to that realization on her own, and make a whole new promise to yourself and the marriage, if you still want that. She needs to come to grips and be on the same page as far as reasons that constitutes walking out on a marriage because to me it sounds like her standards are a lot lower than yours. Instead of openly discussing things with you so you could make changes, she took the easy route and quit. And if those are not the real reasons, then it's another man in which case....we're back to square one again. It also means she doesn't respect you enough to tell you the truth.

 

One of the most important things in a marriage is respect and being open and honest. And if you believe this has anything to do with her loss of respect for you, there's no way you will regain respect from her by going after her, even if you make the necessary changes. You make the changes, and then you allow the chance to see if she ever bothers again to be interested....maybe even years down the road. If she does, and you fixed your issues(if there was really something wrong in the first place), she will respect you if you demand she re-earns your trust or there is no turning back. If she really wants you, she will do the work it takes to get that, because after all, you suffered greatly. If not, you can just keep on moving. No other way.

 

Marriage just isn't the type of thing you give up on at every little up and down, with a door in the corner where someone can step out and back in at will. This is the thing your wife needs to understand more than anything, if you ask me. And stop making excuses for her being bi-polar. I made excuses for a girl that suffered from epilepsy and had serious mental problems, but in the end I was able to tell, her heart picked her family over me and that's what I needed to see(mind issues aside, even she understood loyalty). I stopped making excuses and let her go. Honestly if she was mature and serious enough about her marriage she should be the one here asking for advice, and I think that would be the only way to save your marriage.

 

 

PS: I also believe when two people who are married who believe in respect and honesty, it is not just the fault of the one person who lost respect from the other, especially if that person does nothing and doesn't alert you of that fact. So don't blame yourself entirely. The honesty part comes in, where you as a person are honest enough to go to your spouse and say "Hollow, listen, I understand how important respect and honesty is in our marriage, and I feel I need to tell you when you do those things it makes me view you in a different light. I'd like to see a change". Fact is we are never so open and honest to do this because we don't want to hurt the others feelings so we "enable" and allow our partner to continue to behave in a certain way to the point where we lose respect for them, lose feelings, meanwhile they believe everything is ok, and we stay in this situation until we can't take it any more. Both people are at fault here. But the one that's actually more at fault is the one that is AWARE. Observing a problem in your marriage and being honest about it, doesn't just mean addressing something that hurts us, but also when someone does things that may make us lose feelings and respect for them. It's not just about protecting the feelings of love from them to you, but protecting the feelings of love from you to them. That part is JUST AS IMPORTANT!