Thoughts, ramblings

[LAYAAN]

Thanks Annie.

I noticed that you mentioned "Your parents sound a little crazy." Well, I don't know what normal is.

 

To answer your Q about supportive family members - NO, I don't have any.

In case a detailed Answer would help you understand the situation better.

- I'm the only child

- You already know that my parents didn't live together for many years. They just didn't get divorced. My dad kept accepting job postings outside his own city (where we were located). He would visit us sometimes on weekends, sometimes we would go to visit him. Nobody likes to fight during such short visits. Celebrating festivals was a pain because my parents just didn't get along with each other and couldn't agree on any single option. Initially we took vacations together as a family. Later my dad preferred not to even go with us on family vacations. So, it was just my mom and me.

- My mom held on to her maiden relatives for the life of her. She got married and came into this big city. She didn't know anyone there. Her husband wasn't supportive. She had a child to take care of. Her in-laws were not supportive. She held on to her relatives for support.

- My dad didn't appreciate that my mom wasn't willing to slowly let go of her relatives and he couldn't associate with them. He held on to his relatives.

- My mom didn't get along with anyone (as far as I can remember) from my paternal relatives. I can understand that most of them are selfish, self-centered people. So, I have nothing to say about it, but it made her stay in the joint family home with her in-laws and my dad's brother's family very difficult. I would think that at least for that sake she should have tried to get along with others, but again I don't know what exactly happened. I was little.

 

I have 2 distant cousins in the US who only know my name and that I'm in the US, but other than that, they know nothing about me and I can't open up to them. I have personally met them only 2-3 times in my life so far.

 

I hope you can understand my need to have a supportive husband.

[annie24]

well, many people don't have really loving and supportive parents. my mom is very loving, but misguided. she means well, but is like a bull in a china shop.

 

tinu - your parents are human, they are not perfect. i wouldn't use your parents as the role models to look up to. do you know any people who seem to have a solid marriage? i would look to them. i have several family members who are in happy marriages and i see what they have in common. there is a lot of mutual love and respect there. they let the little things go and focus on their big goals together. they don't nit pick on each other. i think it would be good for you to look at some couples who have a good relationship and see what they are doing right.

 

i think you need to surround yourself with a "new, supportive" family. by that i mean supportive friends, maybe a professor who is on your side, helpful people around you, maybe some of us here on ENA? you know, people who care about you and want to lift you up. kind of what a family is supposed to do, but you can't pick your birth relatives, but you can pick your friends.

[penelope13]

Tinu, I can only echo Annie: you can't chose your family, but you can chose your friends. It's tough to emotionally distance yourself from them, their expectations, and their pressure. But it's part of growing up to become an adult and an individual.

 

Considering the rather bleak picture that you draw of your parents relationship, I can't follow your logic at all why you expect/ hope that some guy can magically dissolve all your problems by agreeing to marry you. Of course if you would say that you want to date and figure out slowly if someone is suitable for you, that would be one thing. But expecting that you will find this perfect person through the arranged marriage system is quite unrealistic - look what it did to your parents: they are practically strangers who are just stuck with each other out of tradition, not emotions. Is that what you want? - This is not going to get your parents off your back either. They are unhappy with each other and thus are trying to pressure you into giving them the emotional support they should get from a partner. Just because you are married will not change that attitude in them.

 

I can only reiterate myself: focus ONLY on finishing your PhD for now. After that you will have time (and more mental energy) to think about other things in your life and you will be able to rethink your strategies about finding a husband.

[LAYAAN]

I wrote in my prayer journal last night -

My sincere request to God: next birth (Yes, I want one) I want to be born as an Indian/south Asian man that's it. Their life is easy. They have women chasing them. They get to ask all nasty Qs on 1st date itself and the woman because of lack of choice will still say yes to them. I want to experience being arrogant, cocky, snobby and treat others like dirt for once in my life. Yes, I want that experience. Sure, I will accumulate karmic debt, but I will deal with it in next birth (what a poor financial decision!). So, I hope my God listens to this prayer and next birth I will be on ENA bragging about my experiences Can't wait!

[Pkittie]

Tinu, you are funny!! Do you really want to be a chauvinistic, selfish, arrogant desi guy??? Naaahhh...Are you are sure you like men in general? Remember what i said before" what you focus on, increases..."

[LAYAAN]

Poochie,

What do you mean by do I like men in general? There is nothing to like or not like, just like us women men are gonna be there. Whats there to like or dislike about it? I'm neutral about it.

What I'm specifically saying is that I don't want to be born as south Asian woman again. I have enough experience accumulated as a south Asian woman in this birth. I do want to be born as a south Asian man so I can get to pay back all the nonsense in next birth. Don't you? Talk to your God. You don't want to be late in filing your request

[LAYAAN]

So, Friday, I finished writing a detailed thought provoking analyses of possible directions our manuscript can go. I wrote background, pros, cons to all these options and before I typed it up I completed working on my data to handle possible Qs by my boss. I sent it to my boss.

Yesterday, he came to talk to me and he said "Thank you for sending me this. I don't agree with option 3 which you want to go with, but I think what you did is a good exercise." He sat down and told me "I want to rebuild this paper and send it out ASAP. I don't want to invest too much and get turned down. We will also share our manuscript with the lady in SPH so she can give us her opinion."

I am really thankful to my boss for giving me a rapid and constructive feedback on the initiative I took. I also am glad to hear that he doesn't want to take long to reconstruct the paper and is eager to get the ball rolling. Otherwise, he is the kinda person who will take forever to submit the paper because he aims for perfection. So, I was really glad to hear that. That is something positive in my life that I can hang on to and look forward to.

[LAYAAN]

So, I got a detailed email from this friend of mine regarding terms and conditions etc. I told her that I won't be interested in taking up this option, but I will pass on the word to my friends. So, I have officially put a NO on that option and told myself to stay focused on rebuilding the paper ASAP while my boss is in the same mood as I'm.

[LAYAAN]

Don't know what to do. He is 39, divorced for 5+ years, no kids, is in north CA, engineer. He is very eager to get married and more eager than that to start a family. He told me that in our 1st conversation. We had our 2nd conversation yesterday, he reminded me about the child thing. He wants to start a family early or mid next year. Thats too soon for me.

 

I told him "I won't be able to breathe until December because I have 2 major exams coming up between late Sept to mid Oct. I'm trying to wrap up my PhD. You (for the right reason) are not willing to live separately after marriage. So, we are not in same phase of life. I really don't think that I will be able to tie the knot before December. I really need some relaxed time to think about this decision through. We need to meet each other's parents before taking this decision. How is it all going to work out before December? I don't mind postponing my exams if we do get married, but you know I don't know if we are going to tie the knot, so I have to take care of my business or else I will have a hard time after I graduate."

 

Him "Don't worry about it. I will file for your green card, your status will change even before you graduate. So, don't worry about job, visa status, exams, PhD at this time. I think you are a nice girl. I'm interested. Lets see how this works and we can get married and start a family. And don't just look at my age, look at yours too. You are soon completing 32, you should be thinking about kids. You are at that age too. Think about it."

 

So, I said okay, hung up the phone and I really don't know what to do. Yes, I need to meet the guy first. We need to like each other. But honestly, every single guy, age 37+ has asked me the same Q. "Don't worry about anything. You just need to make up your mind (and make it up fast) about kids. I WILL NOT wait to have kids. I'm not asking you to get a job right away, I'm not asking you should earn, nothing, but kids, I don't see any point in waiting for them."

 

I don't know what to do. What he says is right. I'm 32. Its not too early to start thinking about kids. He will get me a green card, the guy is decent looking or good looking for his age, he has a job, what more can I ask for? I can put my PhD on hold for a quarter and get married if we decide to marry each other. I have to adjust and surrender to someone, why not this one?

[annie24]

what about spending some more time with him? this is such an important decision in your life. i think you should get to know him better before you commit to something this big. i know that your culture isn't about traditional 'dating' but surely you can get to know him better???

[penelope13]

I thought you weren't even sure if you wanted kids. Are you saying you are willing to have kids just in order to get someone to agree to marry you?

 

What will happen if you agree to get married on the condition that you have kids right away, but for some reason you won't conceive? Trying for children is challenging enough when you love each other and you both want them, but i guess if you need to fulfill some contract clause it will certainly add to the pressure.

 

Apart from that I don't think it's fair to the child (just my personal opinion) just to have them for someone else's sake. Children pick up (as you know) on the unhappiness of their parents and can carry emotional scars with them with far reaching consequences into their adult lives.

 

I also don't think it's the best premise for a happy relationship if you go in with "I have to surrender to someone, why not him".

[Pkittie]

Tinu, you need to first meet the man. You are building castles in the air...both of you have to like each other first. The point I was trying to make is that you seen to almost despise men in general. When you dislike them so much how do you expect to find a loving, caring man? All of us have had bitter experiences with some men but you don't want to hold that against all men in general. You are dealing with a lot on your plate & if you read your own posts you will realize that you yourself are not clear about what you want & your life goals. I suggest breathe easy & take it one day at a time...

[marshmlofluff]

Yeah--what kind of marriage is this? Marriage is about compromise.

 

This guy wants to rush you into marriage and kids because *he* wants both of those things right now. In exchange he wants you to drop your PhD, he is unwilling to even live apart for a while, or to make any concession to your exams, etc.

 

Marriage to me is about compromise. A good one does not start with the man (or woman) unilaterally dictating all the terms.

 

My cousin (she was an Indian-trained doctor) married a man like this because he was from the "right" caste and he could get her a greencard. She has two kids now. I have never heard her say a good thing about her husband, and she is absolutely, completely, miserable.

[marshmlofluff]

He will get me a green card, the guy is decent looking or good looking for his age, he has a job, what more can I ask for?

 

A good man, who cares about your life dreams and goals, and doesn't expect you to sacrifice everything so he can have exactly what he wants when he wants it?

 

And who doesn't have those expectations before he has even met you?

[dancing_magpie]

Tinu - please be careful and think carefully before you rush into anything. This man wants everything on his own terms - he doesn't sound like he really cares about what is best for you at all.

 

Why do you have to 'surrender' to anyone? That is not what a marriage, or any loving relationship for that matter, is about.

 

Please don't act hastily.

[IntotheWild]

If you're afraid of being alone, then I promise you'll never feel loneliness as intense as it comes with being with the wrong person.

[MD Geist]

Tinu, I can almost garntee you will not be alone.

 

Just relax and take things slow.

[LAYAAN]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, I'm tired of standing in the marriage market. I really am. There is noone out there for me. The only way I can get married is by settling for someone. Waiting acts against women in arranged marriage market, because 'fresh meat' is always available and men want to marry younger women. If I don't catch the guy, someone else will. You all have read my posts. You *know* what kinda guys I've met.

1) age group 30-34. Want to talk only about finances first and then they will consider if they want to talk to me about anything else. If I don't have a job, I'm already out and history.

2) age group 36+. Want to get married yesterday and start a family today. If you don't someone else will. These guys are mostly US citizens. They are talking with women, all over the world. They are only a flight away from marriage. Usually are a little more forgiving if I dont' have a job and willing to overlook that to see if I'm a decent person.

 

You all are my friends and I appreciate your support, but please look at it from my point of view. Here is the deal -

1) My PhD has gotten me nothing. Everyone is getting married except me. Men are moving on so rapidly, you can't even imagine. One phone call that's all I get. They don't call back again. They send an email "I think we are not compatible. Good luck to you." People are moving on with their lives. I feel like I'm the only one left. I'm entertaining myself with my degree. Ultimately group 1 which is the age group I'm interested in are asking me only finance Qs and nothing goes ahead. People, please get this concept through your head: Your education/brains don't matter. If you have a job in my city or not, thats what matters. That is when they start talking, that is when they start paying attention. I stand nowhere in this market.

2) Who cares about my confusion and views to have kids? You don't ask some Qs in arranged marriage process. You don't ask why do I want to get married? Well, you are at that age, you just do it. What do you want from your marriage? Noone knows that. We all go into it wanting something and then we become delusional. You don't ask why am I having kids? That's what you do once you are married. If I ask this Q to a man, he will call me psycho and file for divorce on that basis.

3) Now final thing - those of you who are telling me to stop, you all are US citizens/permanent residents. You are telling me that I can get married in my 40s and that I need to hold out for the right guy. What is the right guy? Its all fantasy, I tell you. Its all in women's imagination. You are forgetting that I'm here on a student visa. I will get shipped back to India if I don't get a work visa in this country. You all must be aware that the economy is bad out there. There are not very many jobs available for foreigners. I was recently declined for many post doc positions. My own boss has no money to support me. What am I supposed to do? Please understand what I'm saying. If I get sent back to India, I WILL have to get married. Its even worse there. Those who know Indian culture, I will be required to get pregnant the next day. Might as well bow down to someone here instead. You won't understand my logic or lack of it because you are not in my shoes. You are in a country where you have options. You are a permanent resident here. You can marry someone in your 40s. I won't even stay here that long to tap into that possibility.

[marshmlofluff]

Now final thing - those of you who are telling me to stop, you all are US citizens/permanent residents. You are telling me that I can get married in my 40s. You are forgetting that I'm here on a student visa. My body will get shipped back to India if I don't get a work visa in this country.

 

I was born in the US. And even so, if you gave me the choice between living in India versus marrying a guy who showed absolutely no concern for my dreams and values, I would choose the first in a heartbeat.

 

For someone in your situation, India is not a horrible place to live; you yourself grew up there and lived there for most of your life. You have family there, you can probably get married easily there, and will have a wider selection of men. You will have people to clean your house, cook, and help you raise kids if you decide to have them. As someone who has returned with a US degree, you will get a good job. And actually, you will probably have a much better life than you would in the US. Many people return these days.

 

Supposing you cannot get a work visa on your own two feet, then you can go to India and work in a respectable job that you earned on your own merit, and not by leaning on a man. Independence and self-sufficiency are very important for happiness--at least, to me.

 

As to this bit about being forced into marriage and being forced to be pregnant--yes, I am very familiar with Indian culture. It is the same India where--even in the 1960s--my own mother firmly decided not to get married (eventually at age 30 she changed her mind, but absolutely not because anyone told her to.) Nobody can force you to get married or have kids if you don't want to. I don't buy that. I know several women in India who did not marry.

 

Just as I know Indian men who do not insist on having kids. My own father was one. My cousin is one. Perhaps--as I have said before--if you are straightforward about who you are and what you are looking for in your matrimonial profile, you will attract fewer men overall, but the ones you do attract will be of more interest, and more interested in what you have to offer.

 

Whether I am a US citizen or not--and even if your situation were much more dire than your possibly having to live in India--it seems extremely unwise to consider marrying someone you haven't even met, who doesn't seem to respect you or care about you beyond your capacity as an incubator. Even my father, in India, in the 1960s, did not treat my mother that way during their two meetings. It is a recipe for absolute disaster to marry anyone out of desperation, use him to obtain a greencard while he uses you to have kids you don't want to have, and jettison the PhD you have worked toward.

 

And even if you disagree with all of these arguments, this guy already married someone--presumably someone like you--and his marriage failed. Without knowing what went wrong, what makes you think a second one is going to work? Suppose you marry someone you don't like, and you give up your PhD. You end up divorced in a couple of years, and you have improved your situation...how?

 

I had problems in the arranged market, and therefore I changed market. As you are--as I am--a professional woman in a very traditional culture, I suggest (as I have previously suggested) that your odds will improve if you widen your pool to non-Indian men. Like you, I had very specific requirements--I wanted someone who didn't drink, was OK with my conservative views on sex, would respect my career, etc. And I lived in the most rural of rural areas. I literally thought I would be single forever.

 

Yet to my great surprise, someone came along who was reasonably close to what I was looking for. I thought I had hit the lottery. Then he left me and broke my heart, and I went through some of the saddest days of my life--I really despaired; the only compatible single guy within 100 miles had just dumped me for no reason at all, and I realized that if I stayed in this rural area I might very possibly be alone forever. I had turned 31; the biological clock could no longer be ignored. So I made the heartbreaking decision that I was willing to leave the tenure-track position which I had worked nine years post-college to obtain, and to move closer to a city.

 

And then...I met someone else, who was even better than my ex. I had to compromise on a lot of things--a lot--but not on being respected and treated well, and that was the only one that mattered. Present BF respects my goals and dreams and education and career and respects me as a person. As I respect him. I might move anyway, but now it is because I want to--and also, because I want to be nearer him.

 

Tinu--I understand what a lonely and depressing time graduate school is in one's life, but it is very important to calm down and focus. If you are anxious you will not be able to think clearly or make good decisions about marriage or anything else. Yes, you have to compromise, but there have to be some things you do not compromise on--and you have to decide what they are. Whether you are Indian or American or a citizen or on a J1 or young or old or whatever, a few universal truths apply, and one is this: You should never rely on a man to make you happy, and in pursuit of a man, you should never lose yourself entirely.

 

Love,

Fluff

 

PS--But yes, I think you ought to meet the guy and see if you get along. Could be that you get along great, and that he softens on some of his requirements in person.

[penelope13]

What I don't get: you repeatedly came to the conclusion (as many have suggested) to focus on your PhD for now - yet we keep hearing about your activities on the arranged marriage market.

 

You can't deal with both things at the same time. I'm not trying to be mean, but am just stating a fact.

 

6 months is really not that long. Realistically (not with your doomsday mentality): in those 6 months, will the pool really diminish so radically? probably not as much as you think, since I am sure (according to your own thread) you had the same feeling a year ago about the next 6 months to come, yet it doesn't look like you have no candidates popping up in your life.

 

However what can change in 6 months is your situation with your PhD. Even if you decide not to use it afterwards, at least you have it, no matter where you might live, how you might live or who with. That is your backup, that's what you should be focusing on now.

 

Once you are through this you might approach the marriage market with a more positive attitude.

 

You might not believe it, but people with a positive attitude can pick up really easily if someone has a negative one. Your prospects and the number of candidates will really increase once you got rid off the stress from your PhD and the positive energy from that accomplishment.

 

On a side note: by now you must realize that the people responding on your threads regularly are only trying to help you and really are trying to see things from your perspective. At least I am not trying to push my believes on you and are not advising you according to what would be best for me, but am truly trying to give YOU the best advice that I possibly can knowing what I know from your threads about you.

[IntotheWild]

Certainly there are other ways to get a green card besides getting married. When you graduate, you'll have good academic qualifications.

[Batya33]

It's very tempting to define "moving on with your life" as "marriage, children, house" - because the pressure is everywhere to define it that way and believe me not only in India or the arranged marriage market. I'm as American and modern as they come and I totally relate to that definition of "moving on". How about you dare to be different and define it as "I am getting a PhD and working on a career, I might buy my own house some day, I might not" - without beng defensivei - just make sure you redefine it for yourself.

 

Settling is moving backwards -it's moving away from who you are, inside, it's moving backwards into likely loneliness, depression, perhaps worse -and that's not fair to a future child, much less fair to you or to your spouse.

 

I got married in my 40s, I had my first (and likely only) child in my 40s - to someone who also first got married in his 40s and first became a dad in his 40s. Do I see marriage/motherhood as huge accomplishments? Yes, for me, personally with the obstacles I had (self-imposed but still obstacles!) it was a huge personal accomplishment. But I wouldnt' go around telling other that to "move on" with their lives they must get married or have a child. What a narrow definition of "moving on" and couldn't be more inaccurate.

[LAYAAN]

Thank you Batya, Penny, Annie, Marsh, Poochie, intothe wild, magpie, MD geist. What should I say? It shows me that you care enough to take time out of your schedule to write to my posts. Give me some time to think about what you all have written.

 

I am not trying to run away from my PhD hardships (even though it is tempting). I am sick to my stomach of standing in this market like some item that has now gone stale because noone wanted it even when it was fresh. I also see how my parents are worried about my marriage and what they are going through, with their interaction with these boys and their parents. Its not about sex, kids, sugardaddy for me. Who is winning here really? Noone. You know the kinda Qs I have faced. I've had a rude awakening people. Its useless to have any expectations. Thats why I'm ready to marry any human being with a male attachment.

 

Marsh, trust me. I held out for 10 hard years, girl. I held out like a warrior and now, I'm lost. I don't know what am I holding out for? and if that guy hasn't come by now when I was "young, charming, juicy, sexy, fresh meat" what makes me believe that he exists? Such men don't exist dear and definitely not in arranged market. I remember my 1st ex told me "You will get down on your knees one day and beg your God to give you any man. I will wait to see that day. You think you can get someone better than me because I'm a diabetic, because I went behind your back and hacked your computer, but remember I have a PhD, you won't get any better deal than this. And you think that the guy you marry will be honest with you and will come clean about his bad activities? ha... we will see who you end up marrying." What he said is true.

 

Sure, I'll push through my PhD, I may or may not get it, whatever. I have NO HOPE OF MARRying a quality guy. That is the reason why I'm settling. Today I at least have an opportunity to settle. AFter a few more years that will be gone too, because fresher meat will be available in the market and will be taken off the market in a second. Hope you all see that. Sure, I will wait for 6 more months, 6 more years, finish my PhD, but remember the quality of men isn't going to increase. Its only going to decrease as I age. You dont' get to rewrite the rules, you have to follow them and play by them.

 

I'm sincerely sorry MD GEIST and NIGHTSKY that I've written all this in my journal. I'm not sorry for writing it, I'm sorry that you young guys are reading it and probably getting affected by it. Its like telling my little bro and sis that life sucks and go settle, be among the crowd because there is nothing better. I hate that. You are young people in their early to mid 20s and are deciding the route you have to take for your life. You have hopes and dreams. Please don't read my posts anymore. I'm not a good mentor for you guys. I dont' want my experiences to affect you. I don't want your dreams to die because of my yucky experiences and attitude.

[Batya33]

Do you think it's fair to bring a child into this world in a marriage that likely will be loveless?

 

10 years? Try 20 years - and my clock was ticking loudly and no, I wouldn't settle. So glad I didn't! I wouldn't go down that path of "how long you've waited" as a justification for settling.

[LAYAAN]

No, its unfair to bring a child into a loveless marriage. I'm a product of a loveless marriage relationship. I know what it feels like. That's the reason why I told the guy that I want to wait to have a child. He doesn't want to wait, that is 1 of the contract terms I'm really unhappy with.

 

Also, like Penny mentioned, he has assumed that I will conceive within 3-5 months into marriage. What if I don't? Has he considered that possibility? What happens if I fail to conceive? or fail to conceive within a certain time? My friend has been trying since last 6 months, no luck. Her physician told her, she is under stress of her post-doc and is adding stress to her life by wanting to conceive by a certain time.

 

Today I talked to my mom and she told me that I should focus on my PhD and get it out of my way. If not I should at least wait until I pass pharmacy boards, transfer license to other states and find a job. In the mean time, if I can wrap up my PhD, great, if not, at that time I can reevaluate the option of staying in PhD program. I haven't told my mom about this guy yet.

 

Deep in my heart I'm not happy about what this guy's contract terms are. I'm already feeling pressured which is an unpleasant feeling.