rich 1517 - its done

[strong1]

I suggest a new job..and a move....farrrr, farrr away from her. You need a major life change right now. That might be just the ticket. Really letting go is so freeing.

[rich_1517]

well thanks strong one. i dont know about the move yet. it was actually a big sticking point for me for a while. i have a lot family and memories in another state and miss it very much. she knew this and i had to learn to accept that if we were together that her and her ex hubby share the kid 50/50 so moving was out if we were together.

 

but i dont want to just run. i want it to be based on really being ready for this to be over finally and completely before i do it. but also that its now what i really want. truth is she lives an hour away, and our paths dont cross socially at all. so there really isnt a problem. neither of us has shown up unannounced.

 

i imagine the whole thing will just politely and cordially disappear like so many things in her life. fro someone who wants passion in her life she doesnt know how to work that motor very well. passion lives or dies on risk, action, and chance. not her strong points, but also not my concern anymore.

 

wow, i just said that didnt I? hmmm.

[Mar]

You know, Rich.....I've followed this whole post and kept quiet, because I've seen you change in little, subtle ways, bigger, stronger ways, and come to various realizations with the help of Ziggy and Strong1 and the others, and the different viewpoints being offered. I deliberately didn't post 1) because I've said everything I can on this to you many, many times, and 2) because you're doing a great job of working on YOURSELF now, and I see no point in interrupting with repeating what others have said that just echo what I'd say.

 

I just want to let you know that I'm very proud of you for finally coming to the realizations you have; I see the strength and emotional toll it's taking on you, yet you still remain objective (even if you overthink this whole situation, or certain aspects of it sometimes!) about what you want in your life and where you want to be, and with what kind of person. I know you'll have your down days, but rest assured that you're headed down the right path and you'll have the support you need all the way to the end.

 

Mar

[rich_1517]

gee Mar what makes you think you hold back?

 

seriously though the group of posts here i have seen contain unconditional love and respect for the dumper. and you know its what i did, it leaves me with less anger knowing i CHOSE to do it knowing it was probably a losing hand to play.

 

but its also who i am. the strength i now have is built on intergrity of thought heart and action. i never pressures, blamed or guilted her into action. and you know that actually feels pretty good. it allows me to see what was also really wrong with the relationship that would never be fixed with a clear eye and not from resentment.

 

fact is things end. that sucks. we show up to follow our heart however misguided it may be, and looking back i know i gave a lot but it also fits my quote, i gave enough to know i can afford it and that i will never regret that i didnt try on the terms i was handed.

 

time will tell now whats in store for me, living indenpenantly again is giving me new strength about what directions to choose in my life, i dont have to factor anyone else in right now. and carrerr or business again is it. i know that once i am doing my chosen profession again things all around will improve.

 

i just want to thank you guys for your honesty and emotional awareness, each thread you post, each nuance of growth and insight builds on another and we each benefit from the collected wisdon. wisdom born from hearts blood true, but experience is much better to follow then advice.

[Scout]

I'll tell you something, Rich...from your posts and some of the others, I've learned a lot. First I learned that at the beginning of a break-up, No Contact is the best course. It gives you time to cool down so you don't act too much on your emotions, reflect about what was wrong and what was right about the relationship, time to do some things for and reconnect with yourself, and hopefully (and this shouldn't be the first priority) will make your ex see that you aren't completely falling apart without them, which always makes them second guess their choice a little - or in some cases a lot.

 

I've also learned that at some point contact should be initiated, unless they really did something awful to you, like were unfaithful or something. Because absense after a certain point can initiate them to move on. And if they are worth fighting for - something the NC period should help you decide - you definitely don't want them to move on yet.

 

What I'm still learning is, how long do you fight for them. And exactly how do you fight for them? My ex and I are talking again, and have even agreed that we're going to plan a camping trip soon. I think he's just not used to be challenged as much as he was with me. Let's face it, I'm a fiesty chick. It's not always a bed of roses for the person who is going out with me. And I think it started to appear "hard" to him, and he's sort of on the self-indulgent, overly independent side. A little too self-focused. So, I still don't know if all this is worth it. But I have been doing things on my own a lot, and talking to him every few days, and we've seen each other once since our big blow-out two weeks ago when I just out and out lost it (see Gee Cee's thread "There's a New Gal In Town", I give more details there.) Anyway, I know he does care about me, maybe not as much right now as he did before, but we'll see where this goes...I still think at heart he's a kind and very decent guy, who makes me laugh and I feel an easy connection with. So I'm not quite ready to give up.

 

To sum up, I have learned so much about handling a break-up, from the posts on this forum. I have a bit more to learn as I'm still in the process, and I am curious to see how this all pans out.

[kipster]

 

 

Seems like you have learned alot scout, indeed! I'd say your approach is a good one in not giving up too easily to maintain a 'GOOD CATCH'. There are going to be arguments and potential break-ups. NO relationship is every a 'bed of roses'. BUt the time apart shows you just how important that other person is (or isn't) in helping to complete your life experience. Remember, you will realize that you don't NEED the other person, precisely what you learn from even modified no contact. In addition, you then realize whether you really prefer the others company or not in the process. I'd say this guy and you are indeed going to WORK OUT. Just don't give up on him. Remember, its much easier to fix something that may be broken as opposed to starting from scratch (especially in this era of disease and deception). So again, I urge people to hang in there (take time apart if you need it though) and gain valuable insight. For us guys, READ BOOKS ABOUT WOMEN! ASK THEM WHAT THEY LIKE WHETHER THEY BE FEMALE FRIENDS, ETC. WHAT MAKES THEM FEEL GOOD AND APPRECIATED. Hell, just checking these boards we could make a list of Women's desires that may have saved hundreds of marriages, engagements, relationships from ending. Take an interest in them, before someone else does. And the same goes for my Ladies out there. Understand what men like and don't like. And how to keep men happy, instead of just falling in love with your negative emotions everytime something doesn't go right. RElationships take work! Like a plant they need to be nurtured and watered to grow. But before you go pulling up a plant, thinking its a potential weed, just make sure you've given it every opportunity to grow. Sometimes leaving that plant alone for a while can do wonders for it. Believe me, I know....

[rich_1517]

i came in to post something that is happening to me, and theres already stuff happening, that is very cool. the tone here is awesome. i will read after i get this out.

 

I have turned a hard but refreshing corner. i have to do no contact right now becuase as have learned from earlier days action based on emotion is dangerous in break ups or what ever you call this.

 

i have enough distance now to be truly angry. i will not seem overly objective now becuase thats not what this moment is.

 

She told me lets date, my motives may be bad, i may be trying to keep you as a friend.

 

so almost two weeks ago after yet another wonderful time together and no intimate contact period, i drew the line. i said if you cant show up to try, to commit to working on this i have to move on.

 

so she is still calling. this makes four in one week. i am not answering or returning the calls. heres why.

 

i showed up unconditionally until it was no longer healthy for me. to be offered the couch to sleep on was less then insulting it was inconsiderate added to inconsiderate. what the hell is this girl thinking? i was clearly trying to win us/her back. to give support and love while still trying to keep my dignity. ok so she wasnt interested. i can accept that.

 

but she is trying to keep me in this non game. she calls with nothing other then to make sure i dont forget her. i was very clear to her about trying to turn me into a friend while i still loved her, that she could lose all, both friend and lover as a consequence of being that selfish.

 

I chose to show up the way i did and i dont regret that, but jesus do you know what it likes to be there dating someone who is systematically removing anything that looks like intimacy? trying to so hard to be the one she loved only to be treated as a best buddy?

 

there is no mistaking what my intentions were, if you read back you will understand. I cannot understand how she doesnt know that she is now losing my respect as well as my love. is she even thinking at all.

 

ask yourself: if you knew you had someone who wanted to marry you, demonstrated a willingness to make it work, but you knew you didnt want it. and then after they say well this doesnt seem to be what you want, would you still call to try and keep them?

 

lets face it her calls can create hope if i were still naive to what she wants. you would have to see it. she is emotionally dead with me. i will not kid myself that her calls and "attention" are nothing more then her fears at work and not love or caring.

 

i can accept confused but not in the face of me being very very clear about what i wanted.

 

she is making this easier for me. but i have to pay attention here as well.

 

can anyone see any reason why i should return her calls? her timming also shows her motives as well, she knows now i am dating she knows me and that once i say a thing i do it.

 

so i will keep no contact until i can sort out my feelings. I miss the her she used to be, what we were, but i am very angry at the behaviour i am seeing.

 

could she truly need to get jealous and see my not needing her to want me?

 

i am not ready to tell her what i am feeling right now. it wouldnt serve, i am also not ready to tell her dont call anymore. i cant see clearly yet. forgiveness of both me and her is still my path, so anger will turn to something new. but i must pay attention to what is happening as well.

 

i may just cut her off and let her get the message that way. she has not changed, she does not see what she did to contribute to the end nor does she want to.

 

sad as it is, this story is ending in a way i never expected but i have to pay attention to her actions very closely and not realease my heart for a while. i will allow the anger and hurt to turn again to strength. sigh. and damn.

[rich_1517]

Ok Kip and Scout

 

I had a chance to read your posts. and they are full of hope. i think thats good, too often people throw in the towel not knowing what else to do. sometimes the break up or an ending is so scary and painful surrender seems easier and start over.

 

i personally believe that breaks up say things we cant, whether out of love, compassion or fear we silence those things that need saying. endings say those things and wake everyone up.

 

my best times were with two girls i loved, we broke and got back together after some months (i was a lot younger) we didnt learn a damn thing we were shot through with passion, but the opportunity was there.

 

but it takes two to be willing to rebuild, esle we turn into doormats and must pull away. thats my case sadly but i wont fault the attempt, she just was unwilling to look or lack of wanting.

 

my only advice is pay attention to their efforts. they must want reconcilliation we cannot push it on them. in my case i had to say where my limit was, but otherwise let them open the door first, lead you to where their needs are. if we push too soon they will remember why they left sooner then they will want the rebuilding.

 

no contact or a clear seperation must occur (i believe) for two parties to fully realise the loss and what that value is. a hard path to be sure, i am doing it now with no real hope, but i feel now choice by both parties must be restored for the reconicilliation to be effective.

 

if it is based on just fear, comfort or any one of thousand variations then i fear the make up will be a lesson in what was supposed to be learned the first time: why did we end? what needs werent being met? how much do i truly see you as my ideal?

 

if i learned anything from my relationship its this. becoming apathetic towards the relationship is death, to neglect or take my partner for granted is unkind and i lose, to allow my own lifes attention to far exceed the needs of the relationship i will get just that, a lot of my own life with no relationship.

 

but also and very improtantly what messages in myself did i ignore out of love, just because they left am i still ignoring things that were real signals about this relationship that didnt fit my ideal?

 

i keep using ideal becuase its what i am building towards now. writing the values i want in a woman and then trying to be the man that meets those ideals/ i dont think we should have to settle.

[rich_1517]

one last thought about me.

 

since its friends she has repeatedly said, and its friends i do not want at this time, i may have to kill the doctor to save the patient. meaning her way doesnt work, my way doesnt work. no more work. no contact, strangely by me. in the beginning and different times i have done no contact to save my ass from mistakes.

 

now its about two things, distance and clarity for me, loss for her. its seems strange to now cut her off, but she isnt leaving me much choice. she knows my terms and has decided that isnt what she has in mind.

 

there is a shift, i can feel it. but it isnt enough. i hate this damn game. i still miss her, but not at any cost anymore. why is she still calling? any ideas? can i have picked someone truly that selfish or is she trying to find her way?

[strong1]

I think it's good to just hold for now and not take her calls. No sense starting the old viscious cycle over again...just when you are starting to recover.

 

She needs to sort some stuff out as well..and make sure she wants you back (if she does...hard to tell now) for the RIGHT reasons. A relationship takes growth and commitment on both sides..and she's lacking in both areas at the moment.

 

You're doing fine..just hold tight. I have to reread your messages again to see if she is leaving messages..or if you can just tell it's her from caller ID.

[rich_1517]

caller ID. she hadnt removed her blocked number so it was easy to ignore her (she is the only one who has my cell number with a block). she removed it today for the second call. she left a message tuesday.

[strong1]

ah..God love caller ID!

[rich_1517]

I am struggling with this whole ignoring thing. im sure it seems right from out there. from in here its something we have never done before, ok i have never done before. it sends a message of i cant handle it, and go away.

 

i dont like it.

 

what are my choices though?

 

i am unready to say go away or give me space now, because part of me wants her to see the loss and reconsider. yeah i know but i have learned not to honor those feelings in some way just makes it worse.

 

i can just call and be upbeat, etc, etc we know the game. but i am definitely not there right now.

 

my fear is i will tell her how i really feel right now. that i am not comfortable talking yet, that i am letting go and really dont know what to say to her, friends hasnt worked, dating hasnt worked, so i guess time and space are the only things i can rely on right now.

 

the only thing i can think of is to take days to return her calls, and then just say ive been busy, no details. and let the conversation roll from there.

 

i have to face this again, is silence the only way to regain my power at this point? or is that an illusion too? i dont think my actions will bring her back, silence no silence, talking, not talking. she will not face this at all, hence she calls. instead of a healthy seperation she will see it as me being childish.

 

i guess i am left with needing to talk to her. that seperation right now is a good thing for me, let me call in a week or two. im not ready but arrgggh.

[Scout]

Hey Rich - I understand your frustration. If ever there was a situation where someone was truly giving out "mixed signals" this is it! I honestly have no idea what's up with your ex. It really doesn't make much sense, and I bet you've just been through the ringer trying to deal with it and make some kind of logical explanation for it. I think the conclusion I am coming to is that with all the mixed signals she's sending, it's clear she's totally mixed up, undecisive, doesn't know what she wants in the short OR long term, and holds onto people in case she decides she truly needs them later on. I would not want to be with someone like that, even if they had other great traits. But that's just me - I tend to like people who are confident in their decisions (especially if they came to their decisions in an intelligent, thoughtful process), I just feel more secure around them. Security is an important need for me, may not be for some other people. So I'm only speaking for myself.

 

Is this something she's done before? Called repeatedly after you told her that the current situation isn't going to work? And if so, what happened when you called her back? You can be sure that likely the same scenario will happen again. Is she leaving any messages about something specific when she calls, or just not leaving one at all? That tells you that at the very least, it's probably not an emergency of any sort.

 

Go with what your gut feeling tells you to do. Whether that's call her and see if this time she has a legitimate reason, or don't call her and try to get her out of your system...whatever your instinct is telling you the most to do.

[Scout]

Kipster, thanks for the encouraging words. I am not so sure we're going to work out, but I'm willing to see where this goes. Ok, this guy needs lots of space and time to himself - for now. I can go along with that as long as I'm keeping myself happy with other activities. And who knows - I heard a great quote once from "Sex and the City". One of the characters had just moved in with her boyfriend, and she was missing her single-life habit of having the place to herself when she got home. So one evening, after she walked into the door and he started asking about her day she said, look, I love you, but I need you to do something for me: please don't talk to me for one hour. He said ok, and went back to his book. She went to her bedroom sat on the bed for about five minutes, than walked back out to the living room and said...so...how was your day?

 

The point of the story and the quote she narrated at the end of the scene was: Sometimes, when your needs are met - you don't have those needs anymore.

[rich_1517]

ok she called again. thats three in two days. so i took it and as usual it was just chit chat, then she says do you want to do something with me and my son? i said let me think about that.

 

more conversation, then she says i miss you. i said i miss you sometimes too. she said see you broke my barrier of not missing people, i said bully for me. but i said, you know how i feel.

 

so i have met both goals, not being rude, but not budging. she is still like a rock, i dont understand what she is doing. but all i have to do is base everything on her actions, which means i just keep moving on.

 

i wont do any buddy stuff with her, no way. but i will take every third or fourth call. the reward i give her for calling and trying to reach me is a pleasant and nice conversation.

 

maybe telling her you know how i feel is showing too much, but i dont think so. i made a line in the sand now, i cant cross it myself, or let her ignore it.

 

next time it will just be im busy that weekend, or that night, or that time. seperation must be felt to be realised.

 

i cant settle anymore.

[strong1]

GOOD FOR YOU!

 

I think saying 'you know how I feel' was excellent. It says 'I care, I stated that repeatedly, will NOT do so again..as I have my limits...your move.'

 

Also give you two thumbs us for only taking every third or fourth call...and for NOT doing anything with her and her son right now. She seems to be using him as a buffer. That's not fair to anyone.

 

Rich, you made mistakes..she made mistakes...but I think you have made a real effort here. Now, it's her turn.

 

LOVE that SATC episode where Carrie needs space. I am a woman who needs wayyyy more than the average amount of 'space' herself..so that episode made me laugh. Unfortunately..I seem to have been dating a friggin' 'space' astronaut..as that man can fly to moon for three months on end w/not a word to ground zero. That's a BIT too much space for me. And so, I, like you..am moving on..or as least stepping out on my own for now. As life really does have to move on at some point..with or without them. Once their space needs are met..well..who knows? Until then..I need to start getting my emotional needs met for awhile.

[rich_1517]

well i now know my step.

 

i will let a call or two come in next week or whenever. i doubt she was phased by my you know how i feel comment.

 

when she invites me to do something with her and her son i will tell her i think the phone is good for now.

 

if she asks why, i will tell her a couple reasons but the first and foremost is its making moving on easier. that friends will take some time, perhaps in time.

 

that one will be hard. if she pushes (which she wont) i will tell her that she has to let me go now. i want love in my life, and thats frinedship, respect and passion for me. i understand your reasons why that will not be you, but i cannot meet you there.

[strong1]

Rich...you are getting so strong. I'm proud of you. I think your moves are good ones. You are protecting yourself by setting limits. And I definitely think it's time for that. This stuff can really rob us of our self esteem.

 

Once we get that back..who can resist us? Well...maybe our ex's...but if they do then...they weren't right for us anyway.

 

Hmm. Am feeling strong tonight..tho just home relaxing on a Sat. night.

[rich_1517]

well i have the answer, the question is do i do anything with it. it does take time, space and clarity to see what may be happening. some of you may say im analyzing again, and well you would be right.

 

three years ago about this time i was trying to choose between her and another girl. the ex is N the other is C. I was seeing them both, they were ok with that. i realised i was falling in love with both and it was very uncomfortable. so i tried to decide what would make the difference? how do i choose. so i asked them both the same quesion:

 

"do you think you will ever trust me enough to need me?" i asked this because i knew both had been divorced and were fiercly indepenent, which is good, but i also knew that fear and lack of trust would kill long term. so i asked. C said i dont know if i could ever trust someone that much. N said of course.

 

well, we know now who really knew themselves. C recently broke down crying when i reminded her of that. she realises that she wont let anyone in. i now have a crush on her. oops.

 

N (the ex) it seems is more terrified of trusting anyone and would rather be alone then vulnerable. it makes very good sense now how she has behaved. she has kept me at a safe distance, taking what she needs but blocking the rest.

 

i may relate my conversation fo three years ago and with C recently to remind her. that i want in my life, respect, friendship and intimacy, if its not her then i need someone whose willing to be vulnerable with me, and not afraid to trust me. so ok you get me as a friend but from a distance.

[rich_1517]

words to thte wise. rebounding is dangerous. i figure if i cant lower my pride and be honest here or in general im in trouble. C broke two dates in a row without notice.

 

C is another girl i used to date. we havent seen each other since i got serious with the Ex. it makes sense she would pull back. i dumped her, i told her recently i am still hurting and cant promise anything. she suggested a fling. i have been very flattered by this.

 

what i wasnt expecting was my reaction. i got angry, hurt, slightly desperate and felt really bad. so i know i am still raw from the ex, C doesnt return calls to anyone well i called about 10 times and now feel i scared her off. so i also see i am selfish about this as well. i am acting with her what i didnt act out with the ex.

 

I am trying to hide in a new romance. hey its not a bad idea but im not done yet obviously.

 

this is all very hard. sigh.

 

but strangely i realise i need a fix and maybe thats not the fix i need. maybe i need to just keep focused on my life now.

 

the ex will call to invite me to do something with her and son next weekend. i have to decide how i now want to deal with her.

 

I am very clear now that she is of the emotionall removed varity. im tired of it. no wonder she can be around me and nothing happens. she shuts everyone and everything out that scares her. she will never lower her walls again to me, its just her way. better to move on then to be hurt. but she wont see it. and i cant make her.

 

i am angry again at the exs ability to shut everything out. even her comment of see you made me miss you is cocky and arrogant. i think i have to hit this head on.

[rich_1517]

ok check me on this.

 

im expecting the ex to call about going to the water park with her son. She will keep it dry and not take the risk again after i told her you know how i feel. it will be a simple invite.

 

well rich is tired of it. but focused. so stop me if you think i am figthing a stupid battle here.

 

I now know that one of two things is working in her. she really is done and just doing the "poke" do you still care thing. or she is still confused by her own emotions.

 

im realising she is terrified of intimacy, to the point of choosing to be alone (even in relationship) thats why i didnt move in beyond my own fears. I was afraid I would have someone just out of reach always.

 

so i want to tell her 1. keep poking me with that finger and im gonna bite it off. 2. tell her to meet me for coffee before i consider doing something with her son.

 

at coffee or on the phone i will say this

 

"i have tried to do this your way, it doesnt work. you are saying you are doing what feels natural, i say you are doing what feel safe and familiar. you have so shut out any feelings you might have i cant see a one. since you broke up with me you havent said a sinlge word about what you feel.

 

thats very uncomfortable for me, and if i had known you were doing the shut down thing i would never have agreed to dating. you will not be vulnerable with me, you never gave it a chance.

 

I think you pulled away a long time ago, my perception is that intimicy is so scary that you prefer to be alone then seen. that makes me sad, becuase i know you very well and to block out someone who loves you seems lonely.

 

but ok i have to accept for you its changed, but to ask me to show up for things with you son while you are playing it so safe is not something that is comfortable for me. "

 

 

so? what do you think?

 

update on C, she wants to see me she was just exhausted. but my reliasation about myself was accurate. i have to keep focused on me and my future not so much distraction in dating. i also sense this damn thing isnt over yet.

[ziggystar]

rich,

 

i think if you said all those things, she'll get defensive and pull back more. if that's what you want then do it. if the underlying expectation is for her to finally realize what you are saying, it won't happen because she be in defensive mode and that's inpenetrable. and if you just want to vent, vent here. otherwise, just say that you don't feel comfortable in doing it and leave it at that.

[rich_1517]

Hi Ziggy

well i dont know how much more defensive she could be. being comepltely shut off emotionally is about defensive as it gets. i dont think she would run from it, she might not like me very much for saying it but its true.

 

its also about saying my truth and not accepting what she is doing now in terms of behaviour. so it gives her a choice again. either she can try to be vulnerable or not, but the cats out the bag. she knows i know and that i wont be sucked into playing a dead hand.

 

I dont know yet how i want to handle it. i know i am not done and am very sad these days. i am upset that i chose to stay knowing i saw this two years ago and did nothing about it. I chose to be with someone who could do this, i mean i saw it. when it ended i was shocked and forgot all about it.

 

so here i am with it right in my face and i feel both things, the fun person and closeness and the shut off cold uncaring side of her.

 

it has not been in my nature to be nasty, but i may try to be more direct about my feelings and boundaries. next week her sons father gets back and we'll see how she reacts to time on her own.

 

in the mean time i have to just keep modifying my portfolio to land the kind of job that suits me. financial stability is still job one. its much better but still hard.

[rich_1517]

and around we go.

 

im still angry and sad. i can do nothing good for this situation right now. the anger has to go or at least be constructive, not the spite i feel.

 

i miss her so, but why? i was realising that i miss the things more, the being there, but not alone. with her and her son. thats strange.

 

i think there was so much lost intimacy for so long that i dont think about being alone with her, and recent experiences have been crappy. but its the reverse of what i wanted for so long, i wanted her to open up, yes even during. why cant i see thats who she is? closed off.

 

this is all very heart breaking. i have taken no actions but i am watching it all become nothing.

 

one thing still confuses me. she says friends, but at week one of break up she and i kissed awesomely. she has removed that component for whatever reason. i guess thats it though isnt it, her reasons are her reasons, i cant change them.