Ex feels guilty and wants to make amends

[rapunzel]

The weekend of the 4th we played at a BBQ in the backyard of one of the musicians.

 

I had a fun time, looked and felt good. I was friendly to my ex but did not go out of my way to talk to him. I thought I was just myself. He seemed somewhat subdued when he spoke with me.

 

At the end of the event I hung out to talk to a few people. My ex asked me if I wanted to go for a walk. It was a beautiful night after a month of rain and I had had a couple of drinks over the course of the day. In retrospect I should have said "no" to the walk but I said "yes".

 

He told me he wanted to know if there was anything he could do to make amends to me, that he felt guilty and that he felt like there was "an elephant in the room". I asked him if this was why he gave me a gift certificate for a massage for my birthday. He was very measured in his response, and said, "well, no... I do think it is important to acknowledge people's birthdays and I haven't been very good about this in the past." (I think it was a total GUILT gift)

 

He said he wasn't sure if it was a good idea for us to even talk about stuff or if it was possible for us to be "friends" after what has happened between us. He said he's been examining his actions in his relationships and said (about himself) "obviously I'm having a hard time here" and that he has had a history of "running" when any of his relationships get too emotional. He talked for quite a while. I mostly listened and I told him I did not think he needed to feel guilty, that I was an adult and it wasn't like he held a gun to my head.

 

I also told him I did not know what I could say or what he wanted from me. I said "I don't think I'll have the answer for you by the time we get back to the car". It's always in hindsight that you wish you said a particular thing. Basically I think he wanted me to somehow let him off the hook, the guilt hook, but is that my job? I have my own feelings to contend with.

 

So he stood there for the longest time and I wasn't sure what was going on. We were together for about 45-60 minutes. I started goofing around with him a little bit to add some levity to the situation. I also felt like he was waiting for me to make a pass at him but I squelched that desire and just punched him a little on the shoulder. He said he hoped we could be friends and then I asked him what "friends" entailed and I reminded him that friends often talk about who they are dating and did he think that would be a good thing. I think it was here I got defensive and said that this was why I thought I should have quit the band, and he can do whatever he wants. At one point I said "I'm human, I'm not a robot". During the "friends" conversation he said "I am not suggesting we rekindle a romance". Ouch, thanks again for reminding me. So why did he point out how amazing the moon looked? How come he stood there for almost an hour? I felt like he punched me in the stomach.

 

He then looked at me and asked "are we OK?" but I was still reeling from the sucker punch. I think I just said mumbled OK and then I got in my car and drove off.

 

Yes, in retrospect I should have refused the invitation to go on a walk. I didn't feel better, I felt worse. He was somehow trying to make himSELF feel better. Did he think I was going to say "it's all good. I'm over you completely. I have no feelings for you so date who ever you want and i don't care". This guy turns 50 in two weeks.

 

What did he possibly want to hear from me?

[odile]

It sounds like he is regretful about not being a great boyfriend to you.

 

He may not want to date you, but some self-reflection has made him realise that a lot of what was wrong in your relationship was to do with his own baggage.

 

If he has a history of "running" when he gets close, maybe the only way he feels he can be close to you-- without feeling threatened-- is if you can be friends.

 

Whatever's going on, it sounds like he did like you as a person, and really does feel guilty for not being able to be what you'd wanted.

I suspect that there's an element of regret there-- which isn't to say that he wants to be with you, but more that he's sad that in his heart he feels that it couldn't work between you.

Also, if he feels that this is sort of 'his loss', it may be hard for him to think of you dating others, and it makes sense that he may not want to discuss such things with you, at least not until you're both over it a bit and some time has smoothed your friendship.

 

As for the moon comment-- it's hard to say if it was anything more than an awkward attempt to make some cosy conversation.

[rapunzel]

Thanks for your reply.

 

He said a bunch of other stuff, I wish I could have tape-recorded the conversation. When he was talking about his "stuff" he alluded to being somewhat of a loner. I said, "well, I'm kind of a loner too". Then he said that he thinks we have a lot in common yet that he doesn't think that makes for the best relationship and that it's best to be with someone who "complements" you. I guess he meant it's best to be with someone who is different than you.

 

In the past he told me his marriage broke up because they found out they had "nothing in common." He is just all over the place.

 

My sense is he has met someone, or he wants to meet someone (he is on match, lying about his age to meet younger women). He's not attracted to me enough to be with me. I'm too "old" for him. He is attracted to women 10 years younger and that is what he wants, otherwise he would not lie about his age.

 

So since we work together, he wants to be able to bring his younger women around to our shows and not have to worry that he is hurting my feelings. This is my take on it.

[lavenderdove]

I think you are looking for any indication/hope that he might want to be with you romantically again. But i would point out a nice moon to anybody, a friend, a child, whatever, and it is not an indicator of romance. A pretty moonlight walk might feel romantic to you, but kids and families go on moonlight walks too. I would take that as a sign that you are still hoping there is something more there with him, rather than him wanting romance.

 

I think from the gist of what you say here is was really trying to relieve the awkwardness you both felt in light of the breakup, and to try to clear the air and remove the 'elephant in the room'. I think that elephant really is the fact the you stlil have feelings for him, and that he feels the tension and wants to remove the tension and guilt.

 

This is the critical thing to take heed of: 'He said he wasn't sure if it was a good idea for us to even talk about stuff or if it was possible for us to be "friends" after what has happened between us.'

 

He wants to be friends, but is making it clear that the possibility of romance is over. He doesn't even really want to talk about the romance anymore, but wants the tension to go away.

 

What he really wants to hear from you is that everything is OK, you're fine with him the way things are, you've moved on and are happy with him and accept that is is over.

 

Of course if you don't feel that, then you can't lie about your feelings. But you can really hear and accept what he is saying, that he regrets if he hurt you, but you accept that it is over. Personally, i think what would clear that air if you tell him honestly that no you are not over him and it still hurts, and that you can't be friends right now because of this, but that you are working to put it behind you (and do work to put it behind you).

 

I think he made a sincere attempt to clear the air, and if you want to feel better, you need to really hear what he said and accept it is over and try to put it to rest in your own mind. It takes time to heal, but you can practice techniques to help you heal such as thought stopping and working on acceptance.

[lavenderdove]

btw, the 'i'm too old' is a negative script you are running in your own head and you need to try to stop that. plenty of people lie about their age on match to make themselves more appealing to others... not right but they do. it's also an indication that he's not surfing for a permanent relationship with anyone, becuase of course his true age will eventually be found out if he gets serious with someone.

 

from everything you've said about him in the past, i think he is someone who likes to have a string of different women, and when any of them want to get serious, he takes off. he's even basically said that to you by saying whenever it gets close, he takes off. some people just don't want that.

 

so i think it more likely that he recognized you were very serious about him, and he just doesn't want to get serious with anybody. he wants to date around and switch partners when he gets bored or the woman wants too much.

 

for your own sake, you need to quit worrying about him and who he is and what he wants and who he dates. you need to turn the focus back on YOU and what you need in your life, and work towards getting that rather than obsessing about him.

 

what do YOU want for your life? How can you get it? What steps do you need to get it? Can you put yourself on match or other dating website so that you start meeting new men? Focus on yourself, and don't indulge the tendency to think about him and his life if you want to get better.

[rapunzel]

I know that he does not want to be with me. And I agree he was hoping I would tell him everything was cool, and that I'm over it and yes, that is not the case. I'm not completely over it. I am working on acceptance.

 

I'm not going to initiate any further conversations with him to say what you suggest. He did ask me that night if talking about things made it any better, and I said that I didn't think the conversation made much difference one way or the other. That's how I felt at the time. He said "I'm sorry to hear that" and looked down. I know he was looking for me to exonerate him from his guilt but I really don't think I need to feel responsible for HIS guilt. I wasn't prepared for the conversation as I did not know what his intentions were when he asked me to go for a walk.

 

He did at one point say that he felt I still cared for him.

 

In hindsight, yes, I could have said this or that. I think I did OK though so I can't have regrets about what I said or did not say. Actually I regret even going on the walk because it stirred up all these feelings.

 

Just read your second post. Thank you, those are helpful comments. I am VERY much trying to focus on me. Yes, I am on a dating site. I am trying to meet other people. I am going out there, being social. I try to NOT focus on him but the constant contact with the music group we are in makes it difficult. I sound like a broken record. I know that complete NC would be best but I REALLY don't want to quit the group because of him and lose out on the musical and social opportunities I have with the group. I am going to actually sign off from the board as I'm starting to get upset, and I have a gig tonight with another group so I have to pull myself together. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Ms Darcy]

Hi Rapunzel,

 

I'll keep it short but I just wanted to say that seeing this post made me very sad. I remember commiserating with you last year as I read your posts about your break up with this guy. At the time, I too was healing from a past relationship and starting a new one.

 

Fast forward a year, the new relationship - despite early red flags - has actually blossomed and the ex is just a couple of anecdotes of the past. I was hoping that the same would be true for you (not necessarily the new relationship part but the acceptance of and healing from the breakup). I am truly sorry to see that you are still in the same place - contact with him, having a talk, feeling hurt by his rejection, hoping a little that he has some feelings for you, sad, working on acceptance, and feeling upset.

 

You have to cut contact with him; it's just too much, too long, and too painful. You have tried the other way, and your emotional healing has been stymied by it.

 

And I would agree that the negative script about being too old is holding you back from finding more promising opportunities in the future. Write a new story for yourself and your life.

[purplekangaroo]

Rap, I hope I'm not bothering you...I posted this on another of your threads, but it hadn't been very active for awhile, and I'm not sure you saw it. (I edited this version a little bit.) In reading Ms. Darcy's today, it conveys pretty much exactly the same sentiment. She and I have been struck by exactly the same thing - the length of your suffering!

 

Hi, Rap!

 

I haven't been on here for awhile, and I looked up your recent posts because I was curious as to how you were doing. I was a little bit sad to find that you are, to some degree, still clutching at straws with this same guy. (You are analyzing an e-mail which is clearly devoid of any real affection and is all business, and you are concerned about responding versus not; you are wondering about his big smile and, more reasonably, his gift.) Part of it is definitely his fault - a massage is not a "professional" gift, and he seems to derive some sort of pleasure out of keeping your affections, despite not really wanting them. (SICK.) Also - and this is b*tchy - he thinks "band" is a proper noun. (Or else you deleted a word for privacy's sake, which would make sense. Ha.)

 

I sort of feel like any message that includes the term "real drag" is sort of patronizing. Man, R, it would be a "real drag" if you couldn't come out tonight (but then I could ogle young women, guilt-free). Gosh, R, it would be a "real drag" if you and I couldn't be friends (because then my security blanket would be taken away). Gosh, _ , it would be a "real drag" if you developed a serious body odor problem and middle-age acne, rendering you appalling to the opposite sex forevermore. Not that I would wish that on anyone...!

 

I know that late bit is sort of silly, but there's nothing in any of his stuff to give you any hope, as I think your friend and band mate has pointed out.

 

I know how you feel about this idea, and I've already said this a million times, but...how NECESSARY is this band to you? I think you should look back over your posts, journals, life, etc and figure out exactly how long you've been saying, "I'll wait and see how I feel before I decide to leave the band." I did that recently with a personal problem, and it was scary how long I was "stuck" in limboland...1 and a half years! Don't hold your breath for a long time, like I did. Either use the longevity to dislodge your mind from the bad place, or, you know, physically dislodge your PERSON from the bad place - rehearsal, BBQs, etc with a man who broke your heart.

 

I'd like to hear your thoughts on these ideas, but I don't want to make you dwell. I hope you had a swell birthday!

 

****

 

Really, Rap, I think it's time to take steps to leave the musical group. His guilt is not your problem, but your being "stuck" is. Yeah, you'll have to swallow your pride and accept that you are leaving the band because of a personal situation and emotions you've been unable to get a handle on. But that's so preferable to the stagnation that's going on here!

 

And the "too old" thing? Hogwash. He's changing your perception of yourself, and if you can't hold on to the truth in his presence - that you are worthwhile, attractive, articulate, and desirable for a long term or permanent relationship - he needs to get the boot.

 

As a side note, because I'm not sure whether or not this sentiment applies to this man, as I don't know him: a lesson I've learned only recently is that a person can be a good one and have done nothing wrong, but STILL need extraditing from your life. He has a right to not want to be with you, and he has a right to want less serious relationships with younger women - that's not a crime, even if some of us on here frown upon that behavior. But even if he were completely stellar in every way and treated you perfectly (which he isn't, and doesn't), there's still that possibility that his presence in your life is unhealthy because of your processing of him as a person. He's got to go, and that means sacrificing the band, I think.

 

I hope you are not as upset as you were earlier today. We hope to hear from you soon!

[browneyedgirl36]

Wow...excellent, excellent stuff here. I agree with every word, and I especially agree with the bolded parts, perhaps because I see myself in them as well.

 

I really have nothing to add except to say that this post helped me, too!

[rapunzel]

Thanks for the advice.

 

As I've said before, it's not a cut and dry situation and I may be shooting myself in the foot and severely regretting it if I leave. I am working on acceptance and also recognizing that although we had an amazing physical, chemical connection (at least for me), that this man is bad news. BAD news. He told me during the walk that he has problems with ALL his relationships and he is trying in therapy to address them. He has never been emotionally available for me. I think his very personal birthday gift AND an invitation to go for a walk were both misleading but he's looking out for himself and trying to make himSELF feel better. I am well aware of this. He wanted me to tell him I forgave him (although he never used this word) and I have forgiven him. I am working on forgiving MYSELF.

 

Yet, earlier that day, I told him about a DJ I had met who is on a local radio show and is coming to our July show. His face darkened and he haltingly asked me: "so how did you meet this guy?" Yeah, yeah, I know....it's all about his ego. He still wants me to want him. Which is why I wished I had said "No" to going on a walk with him. If there is a next time, I will.

 

I also know that once I meet someone else I care about, he will be history. I'll look back and regret all the time I spent worrying about him and the situation. I have been through this before.

 

I don't have to see him now until the rehearsal before our July show at the end of the month. He turns 50 next week and I'm going to ignore his birthday. I don't care what kind of message it sends but I don't want to be his friend, I am his colleague. If it hurts his feelings, so be it. I do believe he made a big fuss over my birthday so that I would reciprocate, not to mention because he feels guilty.

 

I booked a show for us in September and we have another one a few weeks after that so I'm definitely in until the end of September.

 

And browneyedgirl, you can empathize with my situation. After all your years of hard work, you have NO intention of leaving your job to get away from your ex despite the pain and suffering you have gone through. You don't want to give all that up and I don't blame you. If a better situation presented itself I may take it but this group/situation is unique and not worth throwing away because of one person. Not to mention, I also will lose ALL the other people in the group. I will have to cut contact with them as well, and we're talking 8 other people. WHY? I will suffer by keeping in touch with them as it will keep me bonded to the group. I will hear about all the great shows/opportunities they have and I will be sitting home alone in front of the tube, feeling lonely and kicking myself for leaving a group because of ONE man who doesn't want or appreciate me.

 

Yeah, it's been a rollercoaster but really....if you had a great job, would you quit because of your ex?

[lavenderdove]

I think you are on the right track to just put him in the same box as everyone else in your group... i.e., he is someone you sing with, and not someone you have a personal relationship with including acknowledging personal milestones like birthdays etc.

 

Just spend some time thinking about how you treat other people in the group, and don't treat him one bit differently than you treat anyone else. No 'special' moments or thoughts about him, and if you find yourself dwelling on him or memories of him, practice thought stopping to get him out of the center of your thoughts. Thinking about someone a lot is really a bad habit, and you can break it with techniques like thought stopping. Once he's out of the center of your thoughts, the emotions will follow.

 

Also, if he should comment about you 'ignoring' him again, then don't have any more personal discussions with him, just say very pleasantly, 'we're not dating anymore, just members of a group together, so we won't have the same level of intimacy anymore... that's just the way it is when people break up... no hard feelings, but no special ones either. So don't take it personally, but we both need to ramp back to being just colleagues again.' His ego won't like that, but that's the reality of the situation. No more heartfelt talks because you are not lovers nor close friends.

[canali]

I agree with above...know your non negotiables and your boundaries... and be "selfish" if need be in implementing them.

[rapunzel]

Thanks...I know this is a process and won't happen overnight. As long as I am in the band there will be setbacks but I have to stick it out at least through the fall. I think quitting over him just hands ALL my personal power over to him...saying "I can't handle being around you so I have to just give all this up as I"m not strong enough". I want to be strong enough.

 

Next time he looks at me and suggests we go for a walk, I'll know it's a set-up for me to feel bad so next time I say "no thanks". Drats, I wish I had done this but I can't undo it. No more heartfelt talks to help alleviate his guilt, talk about his issues, what he's trying to accomplish in therapy, how he was "hopelessly in love" with the one who got away (his ex, whose worth he did not realize until she did not want him anymore), how he feels terrible about hurting me, etc.

 

I do feel a bit badly about ignoring his birthday. It is a milestone birthday and clearly he's having a hard time with it if he can't admit his real age on the internet. He sent me a text on mine last month, brought a birthday cake to our recording session the following Monday AND gave me a gift certificate for a massage. For me to completely ignore his 50th seems cold but I don't really want to set up myself up for MORE disappointment. I know what he is doing on his birthday and so far, I am not invited so, well, there you have it.

[canali]

Am on my BlackBerry so can't copy paste easily...click on my name, go to my threads and you'll see IMO a few good links to sites dealing with being friends with exes...was I believe in response to jellybaby....for tough love see link removed ...popular list of topics on right hand side or do a search engine when on her site.

Hugs.

[journeynow]

I see what you mean about giving away your power if you give up something as valuable to you as the band is. You are aware of your sources of power (such as the band as a group), and the ones that drain you (one-on-one interactions with your ex). The important thing is you are Living AND Learning. That's a positive in all this. How would we know what to avoid if we only go with what other people tell us? Sometimes experience is the best teacher.

 

If you think you might hit snags along the way, keep a list of healthy options, things you can quickly do to ground yourself, call in reinforcements, or in some way support yourself emotionally. (I like the idea of building an emotional bomb shelter for possible fallout...we've already survived the initial bomb blast. We each can equip our EBS with whatever makes us feel most comfortable and safe.)

 

Don't let his birthday bother you. It really is about you. Do what makes you feel strong. Follow your gut.

[lavenderdove]

I think his making a big deal on your birthday, especially a big public deal, is like 'see everyone, what a nice guy i am to her... i didn't break her heart and am good to her.'

 

It was just a ploy to try to get you back on 'good friends' status and show the band that everything is hunky-dory between you since i'm sure some rumors still go around about you pining for him.

 

Just because he makes a big deal for his own reasons, doesn't mean you have to make one of his. You have very good reasons NOT to acknowledge his birthday, because it is best for you to reduce personal contact with him in order to move on and quit getting sucked back into his life on his terms, not your own.

 

Do what is right for you, and don't feel guilty about it either. He gave up the right to have special treatment from you when he dumped you. You owe him nothing now.

[purplekangaroo]

Hi, Rap.

 

Good advice above!

 

I understand the power handover that's involved with quitting the band, and that's why I originally suggested that you EITHER leave the band or implement strict steps allowing you to move on from this "stuck" place. You do need to refuse walks, talks, etc. And you need to start the process - now - letting go of your guilt about not acknowledging his birthday, even if he is in crisis about it. (That's not your problem!) You don't want a friendship, so it's no skin off of your back.

 

I do think it's important to keep in mind how long this pining has been going on. I think that will help you put an end to it, if you aren't going to quit the band. (I also think you need to quit occasionally thinking of leaving the group as an option if you're dead set against doing it, which you seem to be - judging from your emphatic last post.) You're going to stay in the band, and you're going to stop treating him (and eventually, thinking about him) as anything more than a bandmate. I do think that if you can bring yourself to stop returning any prolonged glances, stop accepting any conversation about his therapy, etc, the rest will follow. But it really IS time to change your behavior dramatically if you're serious about getting over him while still in the musical group.

 

I hope I'm not being too harsh - I think people on the forum just want to see you stop lingering in semi-limbo and actually shake this guy, once and for all. Of course you are supposed to be using this forum as a sounding board, and I don't take your posts to mean that this situation is all you do or think about. But from what you've written here, it seems clear that you could be doing more to put up walls between you and he, and I think you've now committed yourself to doing so. Good for you.

[rapunzel]

Thanks for your helpful advice all.

 

Because I DO intend on working with him at least for a few more months, I am a little worried that completely ignoring his birthday is kind of mean spirited. I really don't think he is a bad person, just a mixed up person with his own issues (like a lot of us!) I do still care for him, yes...I am human and these feelings do not magically disappear.

 

His birthday is tomorrow. Again, on my b-day in June he texted me a happy birthday greeting, a few days later brought a cake to our rehearsal and also presented me later with a gift certificate for an hour long massage.

 

I was thinking that when I see him next week (on Monday) I can just casually just say "Oh, happy birthday - belatedly!" and leave it at that. It just seems completely cold to not acknowledge such a milestone birthday. Does that seem like a good plan or should I just let it go completely? I do have to work with him, I know he doesn't want anything more than "friends" (which he AGAIN confirmed on our little walk together) and I do hope that eventually all feelings for him will dissipate but in the meantime, I want to feel comfortable and more at ease.

 

I'm afraid more tension may develop if I ignore his birthday...and he might retaliate (even in a subliminal way). Thoughts?

[purplekangaroo]

Thumbs up. You aren't going out of your way to contact him outside of rehearsal that way, but you are being friendly to a colleague. I like the plan, and I think it suits your goals.

[rapunzel]

Thanks PK. I feel badly (I know, but I do) about not greeting him ON his 50th birthday but I have to keep reminding myself the reasons why I am NOT going to do this.

 

I know his plans for tomorrow night, and they do NOT include me. I know he is going to a big concert in our town with some friends, and which friends I do not know. I did spend his last two birthdays with him and he's going to celebrate this BIG one without me. This was his choice and not mine. So his b-day greeting can wait until next week when I just happen to walk by him at rehearsal.

[canali]

yeah i hear you on feeling ambivalent: don't go out of your way but still acknowledge him if you see him...what about a text message?...not very personal compared to a card and such..and that way you don't have to see him and say it to him with a forced/uncomfortable hug or whatever...or send a belated e-card ...just some thoughts.

[rapunzel]

Thanks Canali. If I did not have to see him, I would not send a greeting - period. His birthday is tomorrow and I won't see him until Monday.

 

I feel like sending a text IS rather personal, it's more personal than an email. I am not sending a card. He sent me a text on my birthday last month (first time he had texted me, he did not have a cell phone for a long time). I remember how it buoyed my spirits and for a few seconds I found myself going into false hope land.... but I quickly pulled myself out of that. He again told me to my face (on a walk that HE initiated) that he does not want to rekindle a romance. Like I REALLY needed to hear that again. He just wants to not feel guilty anymore.

 

I don't want to agonize over this...and I don't want to buckle and do something I might regret. But will I regret letting his 50th b-day go by? ](*,)

[browneyedgirl36]

Hey Rapunzel --

 

I'm coming in late on this one. Have you decided what to do?

 

On my ex's birthday last year, I was tempted to ignore it because he had forgotten mine (He asked me recently again when it is - he really had forgotten. Sigh.) I had called him in his previous birthday (2007), but last year, he had reconciled with his ex, and I agonized (briefly) over what to do. I didn't want to ignore it, but I also didn't want to do anything inappropriate, as he was in a relationship with someone else. Since I work with him, we weren't in NC, either. So, I sent him an e-mail, in different colored fonts, that said something like "HAPPY BIRTHDAY! I hope you have a great day!" and signed my name -- that's it. I didn't expect any sort of response, though I got one a few days later telling me he appreciated it and that he had had a good birthday. (Just recently, he admitted to me that he spent his birthday alone last year. Yeah, while he was supposedly in a relationship with his ex. Go figure.)

 

So...I vote for a polite greeting via e-mail. No gifts, no texts, no cakes, nothing like that. Just a polite message, even after the fact, saying you hope he has (had?) a good birthday.

 

Let us know what you end up doing (or NOT doing!)

[rapunzel]

Thanks browneyedgirl....

 

Gheesh, I woke up this morning feeling like this is a "make or break" kind of thing, and it really is not. Hate to say it, but I still think that my action, or non-action, can have some kind of impact on my future relationship with this man. Actually, it may have some kind of impact on our working relationship (which is all I have with him), the ease or non-ease of it.

 

I like the email idea. Email is less personal than a text. I feel like no matter what I do (including NOTHING), I'm going to think it was the wrong decision and I can't win here.

 

I do have to remind myself - once again - that he chose to remove me from his life, and I don't really owe him anything at all. He even said this on our little walk a few weeks ago.

[canali]

Then ask yourself which will cause less pain? Ignoring or a simple email one liner? Which will make you squirm less and be attached less afterwords?