Guys with hang ups on overweight girls.

[IphigeniaSaysHi]

Doesn't bother me. Just curious. I never thought of Houston as a particularly poor city, such as, say, Cleveland or Detroit.

 

Many major cities house pockets of poverty. Not to suggest only poor people are fat, but you will definitely see clearly correlated trends of widespread obesity where there is an epidemic of poverty.

[velvette]

cleveland is a poor place??? I would've never guessed! my memory of that place is fabulous. I loved it there, it was so green, and I had healthy food every day. I miss the food there. especially the best chicken I've ever had, or ever will have. ):

 

wow this is news to me!

[diabolik]

Many major cities house pockets of poverty. Not to suggest only poor people are fat, but you will definitely see clearly correlated trends of widespread obesity where there is an epidemic of poverty.

Sure, I agree with that. I was just questioning the poor city = fat residents connection.

 

On a bigger scale, America is the wealthiest country in the world (measured by standard of living), yet we are the fattest.

[cat_lady]

Sure, I agree with that. I was just questioning the poor city = fat residents connection.

 

On a bigger scale, America is the wealthiest country in the world (measured by standard of living), yet we are the fattest.

 

This is a trend within america only, I believe.

 

But if you look within cities - the poverty stricken areas are usually plagued by overweight people.

 

I'm from NY - people in manhatten aren't fat. They come from the boroughs, which are much poorer.

[IphigeniaSaysHi]

Sure, I agree with that. I was just questioning the poor city = fat residents connection.

 

On a bigger scale, America is the wealthiest country in the world (measured by standard of living), yet we are the fattest.

 

We are the wealthiest country in the world but the wealth is not evenly distributed. A huge proportion of the money in this country belongs to a very small proportion of the citizens so America's wealth is not representative of our citizens.

 

Plus, in extremely poor countries there is simply no access to the fatty cheap junk that inflates the poor (or just unhealthy eaters in general) in America.

 

You don't see a McDonald's near tribes in Africa. There is just nothing to eat.

 

But it's true. There are plenty of fat rich people. I just think poverty and poor health correlate more. The rich can get health care or plastic surgery that may prevent/derail the obesity. Many variables at play.

[dragon lady]

Here's an article about obesity. It says this about obesity & poverty

 

"socioeconomic factors - There is a strong relationship between economic status and obesity, especially among women. Women who are poor and of lower social status are six times more likely to be obese than women of higher socioeconomic status. The occurrence of obesity is also highest among minority groups, especially among women. Eighty-two percent of African-American women 20 years old or older are overweight."

 

link removed

[diabolik]

But if you look within cities - the poverty stricken areas are usually plagued by overweight people.

 

I'm from NY - people in manhatten aren't fat. They come from the boroughs, which are much poorer.

Sure, I agree with this too.

 

I'm just wondering about this:

The fattest/fittest cities relate directly to poverty levels.

Because from what I've read, Houston is the fattest city in the country and has been for years. But I just looked at a list of the 25 poorest cities, and Houston is not one of them. Sure, one outlier does not invalidate the trend, but I'm wondering if there really is a trend, or are we speculating here?

 

Oh, and as for Cleveland, it was #3 or 4 on the list of the 25 poorest cities.

[dragon lady]

We are the wealthiest country in the world but the wealth is not evenly distributed. A huge proportion of the money in this country belongs to a very small proportion of the citizens so America's wealth is not representative of our citizens.

 

This is why I always roll my eyes when people call America "the wealthiest country in the world." Sure, the GDP is the highest, but a large number of people are living much more poorly than entire populations in countries with lower GDPs. The wealth distribution gap is enormous.

[diabolik]

We are the wealthiest country in the world but the wealth is not evenly distributed. A huge proportion of the money in this country belongs to a very small proportion of the citizens so America's wealth is not representative of our citizens.

Have you ever been to a third world country? The wealth isn't distributed evenly anywhere in the world, but it is a lot worse in the third world than in the west. That's why I measured wealth by standard of living, and NOT by GDP.

[IphigeniaSaysHi]

Sure, I agree with this too.

 

I'm just wondering about this:

 

Because from what I've read, Houston is the fattest city in the country and has been for years. But I just looked at a list of the 25 poorest cities, and Houston is not one of them. Sure, one outlier does not invalidate the trend, but I'm wondering if there really is a trend, or are we speculating here?

 

Oh, and as for Cleveland, it was #3 or 4 on the list of the 25 poorest cities.

 

There have been numerous studies on this- so much support in favor of the theory. There are numerous reasons for these trends, as well. It's a broad subject with many complications, but there is no denying that poor cities tend to experience more obesity. But I couldn't convince you 1+1=2 so...

 

*shrug*

[IphigeniaSaysHi]

This is why I always roll my eyes when people call America "the wealthiest country in the world." Sure, the GDP is the highest, but a large number of people are living much more poorly than entire populations in countries with lower GDPs. The wealth distribution gap is enormous.

 

Exactly right. It's frightening. I cannot remember the exact numbers, so don't quote me, but something like 10% of Americans own 90% of the wealth in this country.

[dragon lady]

Have you ever been to a third world country? The wealth isn't distributed evenly anywhere in the world, but it is a lot worse in the third world than in the west. That's why I measured wealth by standard of living, and NOT by GDP.

 

The US does not have the highest standard of living in the world

 

link removed

[tiredofvampires]

ToV is just curious of the verdict in that case?

 

Yes, indeed. And where IS Diabolik? I'd like to see what his response would be to the contention that you can't foresee everything that will occur in a marriage dynamic, in the minds of people with new stresses, in the bodies of both parties, and all the other case examples in life where unpredictability is the rule, not the exception; as well as the very relevant example of how a body going through an unattractive change can happen whether it's under your control or out of your control, but the end result is the same. Unless he wants to argue that lack of motivation itself is the turn-off, not the actual fat and weight, I think my example is relevant.

 

First, two disclaimers:

 

1. I draw a distinction between overweight and frank obesity, and that would change the nature of the discussion -- but we are using the term "overweight" in this thread loosely, which means anything above ideal weight. So that's what I address my arguments to. I draw a distinction between trying to eat properly at times but not always being able to and having to forego exercise, and voluntarily stocking the house with soda, junk food snacks and subsisting on drive-thru meals. I think there is a good amount of willful decision making that people can and SHOULD exercise, and I, as a health-conscious person who agrees that the obesity trend in America is deplorable and disturbing (one of my favorite documentaries ever, "Supersize Me"), am not in favor of abdication and passive involvement in your health. I think someone who becomes obese is not just a problem for the sex life of a marriage, there is a problem of mortality/morbidity issues and they owe everyone involved a serious overhaul. This is different from someone who has gained a few pounds and is just somewhat overweight. I don't know how many pounds Diabolik could stand for his wife to gain, which is why I asked, but because he hasn't answered, I will assume he would like his wife to look like Pole Vault Girl before and after, until death do us part.

 

2.

I think that if a person got so depressed that they lost their desire to keep from getting borderline obese, that would be an issue, and if they were resistant to therapy, yes, that is legitimate as complaints go.

 

What part of this did anyone skip? So saying, I'm not sure how anyone on this thread would think that I think anyone is "off the hook" in terms of accountability. If a man developed the routine of coming home after a hard day's work, and regularly just wanted to zone out in front of the TV every night to de-stress (instead of having quality time with his wife), that would become a problem worth addressing. If a woman started to eat buckets of ice cream every night to de-stress, that would become a problem with addressing. And if either party didn't want to address it at all, then you'd have a marital problem, and one that goes deeper than being a couch potato at night or eating too much sugar and getting fat. It'd be a problem of commitment, communication, and motivation to keep the marriage going which I see as a more global issue between 2 people who supposedly love each other and don't take each other for granted.

 

(This is merely a footnote, and not part of my argument or disclaimers, but you'd be amazed how many men stand firm in their "rationalization" that after a hard day at work, they've "earned" watching TV or playing games on their computer at night and just getting to veg in their "cave", leaving their wife and family to fend for themselves, and that it's equivalent to cavemen needing to stare into the fire at the end of a long day of hunting. Justified? Maybe, huh?)

 

The man, though he may have changed some also, wonders "where did my attractive wife go?"

 

I see this everywhere, probably 50% of my male married friends suffer in situations like this. Before the children are born, he is an end in himself, after, he is a human wallet, and his needs aren't even on the radar... for the duration of his life.

 

IMO, this is the single largest factor in male cheating in marriages.

 

No abdication, sense of self-entitlement, and rationalization going on here?

 

As much as I respect you ToV, that kind of post is the one that I've argued about with you on the forums and in PM's. Where in that post is the woman taking any sort of accountability for gaining weight? I see lots of blame and rationalization, but I see zero accountability.

 

As I said, I'm not in favor of "zero" accountability, but I don't think being overweight after having kids necessarily implies such an extreme. As I said:

 

Usually, what happens is that stress, depression and hormonal changes all consort to create weight gain in women, particularly after she has had children. And as much as you'd think motivation would just whip anyone right back into the saddle, Diabolik, some women's metabolisms never go back to the way they were before being mothers.

 

I ask you, PTH, what part of depression -- let's just take depression alone, let aside the issues of endocrinological (hormonal) fluctuations and changes, that change the way food is metabolized -- what part of depression is at heart, "blame", "rationalization", and "excuse"? What part of it is just something you can grab, as a bull by the horns, and just get with the program, and just put a stop to being apathetic (which comes with depression)? What part of depression (and how physically/mentally draining it is, which discourages healthy living) is a voluntary and willful decision? What part of depression is due to pure laziness and lack of desire to be accountable to everything everyone wants you to be, including yourself?

 

What part of depression do you think can just be willed away because you are afraid of the consequences (in this case, your husband finding you unattractive and cheating on you?) What part of depression is by definition characterized by proneness to lousy habits that you know aren't good for you but you do anyway, because of life's burdens and your need for some outlet (which is food in many cases with women)? This is something you feel to be entirely under your control? I would agree that if someone is going to the root of their problem and it's depression (which creates apathy, which creates resistance to change), I'll go back to my disclaimer and say that the depressed or stressed-out party should recognize this and do something about it, but I don't think it's fair to call the rigors people -- especially moms go through -- a "rationalization" for becoming burnt out, tired and less apt to be the exercise buff they used to be.

 

And I think you know, PTH, that I am accross the board sympathic to the drag of depression (physical + mental) being dismissed callously by people (who aren't going through it and don't know) calling it some sort of excuse.

 

and generally starts with the woman letting herself go into total mommy mode. It's just not that difficult to be a good mother and a good wife at the same time, regardless if he's (or even she is) working extra time to PAY BILLS AND PROVIDE.

 

I also agree with Servedcold in the sense that I know a lot of parents (male and female both, mostly females though that do this) that say that they're a mom now and don't have time to worry about "xxxxxxxxxxxxxx," and more often then not their kids are at an age where they can fend for themselves the majority of the time.

 

"Going into total mommy mode", and "females doing this more than males"?

 

Gentlemen -- I am about to put my foot on a landmine here, but there is no job on this earth that is harder than being a parent. If you are a devoted parent, who values your role as centrally to be the caretaker of your child, male or female, you will find that your life as you knew it before has transformed. I've talked to countless fathers as well as mothers, and even fathers say, "Your life isn't your own anymore. You are living for the sake of another human being. You don't have your own time anymore, you don't just get to walk away and do what you like, you are on the clock 24/7." And PTH, this pretty much goes on until age 18 when they typically fly the nest, even if the children start to have periods where they are not around and you have more and more time to yourself. Children don't "fend for themselves" until they move out (and even then, you have a lifelong commitment as a parent, as I see it), and everything up until then is you providing a safe, protective, nurturing environment for them. But as much as gender roles have changed and the world is asking women to work as well, and women are WANTING to work as well, the biological fact is that women will forever be saddled with the lion's share of the rearing responsibilities and personal sacrifice of time and energy, except in nontraditional set-ups (men who are stay-at-home). This is true throughout the animal kingdom and it is true for us, too. The female of the species in most animals, especially mammals, is the one tethered to home and family. Don't argue this with me, take it up with god. And until you are in the position of having a family of your own to see how difficult it is to cram your duties as a parent, your duties as a householder, your duties as an employee into 24 hours, I think it's difficult to sit in judgment. So far as I can tell, there is only one actual parent, and mother, on this tail end of thread (amberella), and she's a very attractive woman. So she is one of the lucky ones. I repeat: some women's bodies and chemistry change, and this is as out of control as being in a car accident.

 

When my nephew was born, my sister's life, body and mind changed overnight, and she was a career woman, if there ever was one. And her job was as a yoga instructor, professional choreographer and dance teacher. So her life revolved around staying in shape, and furthermore, she always had the metabolism of a man. She was the stick in the family, genetically. After she had her son, who is a very high-maintenance child, she had barely the energy to cook dinner, let alone go for her workouts. She was and is so sleep deprived, even with him being a toddler now, she only wants to sleep some more. She was rail thin, now she says she's getting a bit of a "spare tire" from the hormonal shifts, and fat deposition in other places. She is far from obese, and never will be obese, but if the strains that had happened to her had happened to me (I have wanted a child, but not had one), since my body is more naturally curvy with wider hips (though I'm at normal weight), I can see this becoming, euphemistically speaking, "pleasantly plump", even though I value exercise and eating right. Go ask ob/gyns how many women go in there complaining that they can't get rid of the fat. Servedcold, you are busy making money and living the life you are accustomed to, to have a clue about the drastic changes that would go on for your partner -- spend a day in the offices of womens' health care facilities to hear what goes on behind closed doors, and to know the feelings of inadequacy and sheer overwhelm that go on. Sure, this doesn't mean anyone should be drinking a six pack of coke every day, but it's easier to dictate to people what they can and can't do if you are not in their bodies, with their stresses and strains, telling them what is "easy" to do. As I said, no woman on this earth wants to become a shapeless, dowdy lump. SOMETHING ELSE HAS TO BE GOING ON, and the laziness is usually symptomatic of something else, is what I'm proposing, being a woman who knows what the mentality is among mothers. I think you are privy to what mothers go through as well as I am privy to all the water-cooler discussions among your sex-starved male buddies.

 

Until you are saddled with the responsibility of chasing a child around nearly all day long with no break, fixing all the family meals, keeping the house in order, using your husband's WALLET to make YOUR FAMILY function (and you'd begrudge this?), AND going to her own part-time sedentary job to help the family as well, I think it's a little much to put yourself in the mind of a woman who feels too exhausted to work out beyond getting a car seat that is very heavy in and out of the car multiple times a day. Try it first, then report back to me.

 

I realize this is the stuff of "women's issues", and I don't believe I have much of a receptive audience in the men who have stuck it out this far, in this thread, on that sort of fare.

 

Thank you, velvette, for saying what I am saying here, just in less words, lol.

 

If I was in a serious accident, I wouldn't expect anyone to stick around. I have no desire to be a burden on anyone, so I'LL at least answer that question.

 

Well, suit yourself, but I would be marrying for "sickness and health, richer or poorer." I'm not sure why you'd want anything less.

 

Thus endeth my dissertation *steps away from podium to male boos*

[diabolik]

The US does not have the highest standard of living in the world

 

link removed

DL, as always, you are the master of information gathering. Thanks. I guess I was thinking back to what I suppose are considered outdated measures.

 

But I couldn't convince you 1+1=2 so...

I love how you think I am so judgmental (this is very clear in your posts), yet you are just as judgmental, if not more so.

[ProtestTheHero]

Aside from menstruation and pregnancy, I don't think women are faced with any more responsibility as a parent than men, and I don't see men rationalizing the weight gain as much.

 

As soon as I could make my own food, I was able to fend for myself. I've needed the money that my dad brings home to make that food a possibility, but there's nothing that I've needed from my mom since I was 9. If anything, my dad dealt with the majority of this stress and he handled it fine, so I have to say I'm not very sympathetic in the scenario that you've described.

 

What you feel can be beyond your control, how you respond to it is totally within your control. The feelings are irrelevant as long as they deal with them appropriately.

 

I don't really care what else is going on. The only important thing is how we respond to it. If you respond to it poorly, it's your fault. If you respond to it correctly, good job.

 

 

Yes, I am equally harsh on myself.

[jenny_mcs]

 

Go ask ob/gyns how many women go in there complaining that they can't get rid of the fat.

 

That is because 27% of women of child bearing age in the US are now categorized as obese. 27 percent! Ob/Gyns have had to revise their guidelines for weight gain during pregnancy in order to urge these obese mothers-to-be to gain less weight during the pregnancy.

 

And...ob/gyns report that 70% of all women do not follow the guidelines for weight gain during a pregnancy!

 

So many women are starting off their pregnancies very fat, and most are not adhering to the weight gain guidelines and gaining way too much weight during pregnancy.

 

You can read the article here removed[/i]

 

It as in the NY Times yesterday. Read the comments also, they are very interesting.

[greywolf]

Sometimes I feel like I'm living in a different country. I don't see overweight people that often, although it's true I don't get out much and mostly only see my family.

[dragon lady]

DL, as always, you are the master of information gathering. Thanks. I guess I was thinking back to what I suppose are considered outdated measures.

.

 

If the information is out there, I will find it. I have a friend who calls me "Googs."

[tiredofvampires]

Well, I don't see how you can say that aside from pregnancy and menstruation, women don't have more work than men in child-rearing. It's practically common sense. I can't really argue that one well, except to say it's pretty much ubiquitously true if you observe the mammalian animal kingdom, including women. When you go to the pediatrician's office, you see the mother there, not always the father. When I got to my ob/gyn, women who are giantly pregnant are there with their young children, often the husband/partner is absent. Both my sister and her husband were breadwinners, but because his position of breadwinner is the stronger one, she is the major one in charge of dealing with childcare. These patterns don't change much in a given family, with set careers and roles. And most of the time, women are juggling career and family in a way that is more demanding than men. I don't have the article citations (maybe I'll leave it to dragon lady, lol, I agree, you're awesome), but read again and again and again the stresses of women who have to be both partners in one, these days and how demanding even being a stay-at-home mom is.

 

Your family may be the exception, PTH. I wasn't cooking my own dinners at age 9. And I think neither of our families are representative of evenly-divided, balanced parental influence.

 

Men also do not put on fat as easily as women. Women need to, to ensure that if harsh environments present, they can continue to nurture the children even if the man perishes, and fat stores energy to do this. It doesn't end with pregnancy and menstruation -- when you are the incubator of the human race, there are certain things that come along with that, as changes in your body, changes in your freedom, changes in your reason to be alive go. If you are the type of mother who can't for whatever reason handle that responsibility, then it's a good thing to have a male role model step in and do it all, but that's not the norm, and I don't necessarily think the results of that would be ideal.

 

I also think that it's hard to separate how you feel from how you behave. If it was that easy, depression would be quite a manageable disorder.

 

Incidentally, just because you're equally harsh on yourself doesn't necessarily mean that makes such harshness good "rules to live by."

[greywolf]

This is really an issue that I don't know which side to take. If I had a gf, I wouldn't really like the idea of her getting overweight in the future. Although, there was a time when my mom got up to 115 lbs and I know my stepdad made a few comments about it. It was when she was when she worked a lot and when she wasn't on working, she was still on call. She's lost the weight since then, but I know it made her feel bad for awhile.

[tiredofvampires]

So many women are starting off their pregnancies very fat, and most are not adhering to the weight gain guidelines and gaining way too much weight during pregnancy.

 

Thanks for the good link. However, if you are starting off very fat, I would assume this would be evident in the courtship phase in some way, and these types of women and their body frames would be weeded out ahead of time by men who are looking for a svelte life partner.

[diabolik]

Yes, indeed. And where IS Diabolik? I'd like to see what his response would be to the contention that you can't foresee everything that will occur in a marriage dynamic, in the minds of people with new stresses, in the bodies of both parties, and all the other case examples in life where unpredictability is the rule, not the exception; as well as the very relevant example of how a body going through an unattractive change can happen whether it's under your control or out of your control, but the end result is the same. Unless he wants to argue that lack of motivation itself is the turn-off, not the actual fat and weight, I think my example is relevant.

 

I answered a similar question in another thread:

There are many things in life outside our control. If your hypothetical was a primary concern of mine, I wouldn't get married.

 

~70% of Americans are overweight or obese. Only a small % of these folks are in that position b/c of unavoidable and long-term untreatable accidents/medical conditions/etc.

 

I know many men who find themselves married to now fat women. None of these women got that way b/c of accidents or medical conditions.

[IphigeniaSaysHi]

DL, as always, you are the master of information gathering. Thanks. I guess I was thinking back to what I suppose are considered outdated measures.

 

 

I love how you think I am so judgmental (this is very clear in your posts), yet you are just as judgmental, if not more so.

 

I think you get off on arguing.

[cat_lady]

This is a very interesting thread and I just have to contribute my .02 cents, even though they might be judgemental.

 

I live in the nation's capital so we get tourists from all over the country. I was at the zoo a while back with my ex bf and he was just looking around and said - wow, look at all of these women!

 

And I looked around - most of them were overweight. And they all had kids. But even that aside - just they way they were dressed - old flip flops, raggedy sweatpants, old tshirts that don't fit properly. I mean, comfort is comfort, but when you're flying half way accross the country at least pack some presentable clothing that fits properly. When I was younger, I'd get yelled at by my mom for walking around the house dressed like that. In fact, recently I was sick in bed and no one would see me and was dressed like that and my mom told me - gosh, have some respect for yourself.

 

I mean, yes, if you can't even bother enough with your appearance to buy a tshirt that doesn't look like its 5 years old and isnt 3 sizes too big for you when you are already overweight, staying in even relatively decent shape does become an impossibility.

[greywolf]

^ Alot of that has to do with culture. Some cultures are more concerned about how people dress than others.