rich_1517 - how to not be taken for granted

[rich_1517]

Hi i put my name in the post so if you are bored you can ignore it.

 

i have been using this forum to process out my more extreme feelings so they dont interfere with the goal. to get the girl back. it is effective and produced some interesting responses.

 

where things are:

 

my "ex" and i have been seeing each other more regularly, right now its around her son becuase she has him this week. but some real changes.

 

she is touching me more, now kisses when hugs (light side of mouth). but big change. has come up and given me back rubs unasked for. is saying "we can this, and we can do that" IE: future planning.

 

the only caution in that is that she has said "i see you more as a friend right now, but lets date and see, you have changed so much".

 

so my confidence, flirting and ease are in place i am the guy she knows to be attractive and appealing. i am being supportive, fun, and leaving early not talking about feelings etc.

 

when i left last night i waved her over to a more "out of view" spot in the kitchen, she thought i was ready to kiss and puckered up, but i said "you wrote in my birthday card that our dates will be an adventure" i then said "lets make them adventure"

 

I am being a little aloof about touching or kissing her because she has sent mixed signals before when she had not changed her feelings. my take is that i must get her to drop her defenses and resitance to the "idea" of being with me again before i get smoochy.

 

so this leads to the questions:

 

i am planning "real" dates now which cant happen until her son is with his dad at the end of the week. we are going to the art museum on thursday.

 

saturday is my target for date 2.

 

so she knows already i want to marry, that i love her, etc. what would be suggestions at this point to create the tension of if she doesnt move on this she may lose me?

 

how much distance should i put in? meaning i dont want to call everyday, and actually leave time for her to call with ideas of what to do.

 

should i do some obvious "unavailable" moves like, i would love to come over but i have plans then, rats, how about this time?

 

the big fear with her is that she could be recruiting a friend in me and that even kissing etc, could be a method of keeping me (im not kidding). i feel that real romance must blossom first before any abortive or short "hit and run" sex happens.

 

I will do massage, etc to begin physical recontact when its right. but i do want your input and ieas about how to win her heart. thanks -> cheap date ideas welcome too.

[GeeCee]

Hi Rich

 

I am glad to see that you have lightened up considerably. You are right, you are gaining in confidence. Your patience is paying off. You need to continue along this path.

 

I am not quite sure what you are asking though. Is it that you are worried that you are going to end up just as kissing friends? I doubt it. Of course, we have many relatinships in life, and kissing, flirty friends sometimes happens. But she knows the extent of your feelings, and thereforeeee this would be a very cruel game to play. Yesterday, you say, she approached you, ready to kiss you. What are you wondering then Rich. In a week, she has moved forward, she is now initiating physical contact, and she is willing to kiss you. You are going on dates, and she is talking about the future with you. She uses the pronoun 'we' instead of 'I'.

 

Regarding your telephone contact - I would resist calling every day - I am sure that you want to. But call her, and give her the space to call you as well.

 

I am all for game-playing Rich - remaining aloof, vague, independent, happy. However, I would be careful with the 'I have plans' game. Sometimes, though it is perfectly ok to just say, look I have had a busy day, I need some time to myself.

 

Make your dates adventurous - picnics, bowling, take her to the amusement archade, ice-skating. Goof around, build up lots of memories of laughter. All of this is relatively inexpensive.

 

I still think that you are in a fantastic position Rich - how about you start enjoying it?

 

G xx

[dikaia880]

Hey Rich...

To be honest I must say your story is one of the ones I like to look back over and know that there is hope for almost all of us here. Your in a great position...don't push it, be aloof, but try not to be too distant...I think I did that and now it seems to be hurting my position a little....Best of luck and keep it up your doing great bro!

[Beec]

My recommendations.

 

The art musuem is a quiet contemplative date. After the musuem, you have built in discussions about what you each saw and liked, etc. In NYC, I enjoy the Met and have a few favorite paintings. So, I can get out my spiel on why I like them. Then once say why I like it, I get to ask her, and why she likes some.

 

If she looks as something a long time, that's one to ask about.

 

I've found some of the old Greek sculptures fun, because all the males are nude and all are missing a certain part of their body. Great to comment on them missing their equipment.

 

For Saturday, switch gears. (Saturday may be quick to put two dates together. Watch how she is at the end of Thursday.) Make it fun. If you can make it physical. Show yourself doing soemthing you do fairly well, if you can. Laugh at yourself. Do not make it all day. End it. Figure out how long you want it to go minimum, add in a little leeway, then end it for that time. Leave her wanting more. Do not make her want you to leave.

 

I would make plans for later. Makes you end it. I would not use the plans to make her jealous, not in this case.

[rich_1517]

keep it coming. ceecee and others. i learned to use this board to "dump" my worst fears and greatest hopes, because neither work in a situation like this. i have been buying time to get back into my own skin and confidence level.

 

yes she has changed a lot in a very short time. but remember she can be very ambigous and send mixed signals before she even knows what she wants. im not kidding. at week three she spent 5 hours with me took me a really nice restaurant and then said "im still deciding".

 

that aside ceecee you are correct there is a time to respond to whats clearly being offered and she may not think about the fact that she has sent mixed signals before.

 

Beec the museum date is lunch, very short. i still want to do a saturday day/evening date or if too close together then punt museum.

 

I will be able to "truly" enjoy whats happening when i have an idea of what is happening. but i am relaxed enough to have fun in the moment and question want next here.

 

her reserve and reasons for "friends" still holds me back some, i have to ignore it.

 

the timming, and perhaps ceecee if i read you right and Beec, is there will come a moment when the rules, the games, etc all go away. and yes i am planning for that. a moment when we just connect.

 

 

the advice i need is how to win this one, all the way. my mood, confidence is less an issue, its more about reading the signs and making the right moves to make it happen.

[Beec]

If the short museum trip is already on the calendar, go for both then.

 

You biggest key then is to read he body language. Plan your moves to play to that. When her body language is indifferent, make her feel happy, but don't chase. When her body language is chasing you, back off, let he catch up, then make a slight move to her, then back off. This happens in no time. Play with her. You seem to be able to read her body language, so just think of what her mood is and where you want it to go next. Play to that, you'll be fine. Don't play to her words.

[rich_1517]

i am realising that i am still trying to exert control over a situation i am not fully in control of.

 

I can seduce, i can use self control and all my other powers of seduction and attraction. but.... in the end its about two people.

 

perhaps i should have kissed her last night. maybe not planned a lunch date and let her suggest something.

 

the point is she is now showing some signs of accepting me and i have to let her play a part as well to not do so would cause this to slip away i think.

 

im not a hundred percent on this but it feels right. to move into the space where we both can connect. let things unfold with help of excitement but also be open to what she may offer.

 

who knows she may feel rejected for no kiss and resent me today, this is a diifficult game i have chosen to play.

 

for the saturday date (fi she accepts) i will aim for something mysterious (any ideas?) i need something that shows fun, intimacy, and passion. one thought is comedy or theather, and making dinner at my house or hers.

 

finances are a factor, not becuase i am short but because cheap fun is more appealing to her, and shows her i can do it

[GeeCee]

Hmmm...

yes she has changed a lot in a very short time. but remember she can be very ambigous and send mixed signals before she even knows what she wants. im not kidding. at week three she spent 5 hours with me took me a really nice restaurant and then said "im still deciding".

 

that aside ceecee you are correct there is a time to respond to whats clearly being offered and she may not think about the fact that she has sent mixed signals before.

Err ... she's a woman ... what's your point ... enough said!!!

 

the timming, and perhaps ceecee if i read you right and Beec, is there will come a moment when the rules, the games, etc all go away. and yes i am planning for that. a moment when we just connect.

Now Rich this is a good point. A very good point. I DON'T THINK THIS AT ALL!!! In order to keep the relationship alive, I think that the game-playing MUST continue, it has to keep evolving, but it becomes more subtle, and this is the problem we have. We get complacent, and all our carefully laid plans get left at the way-side. You need to keep refining your game, as your relationship evolves. It should become a way of life - see it as putting in something to get more out of it.

 

perhaps i should have kissed her last night. maybe not planned a lunch date and let her suggest something.

Now if I were her Rich, I would be wondering 'Hmmm why the hell didn't he kiss me last night?' Remember Rich, we all want what we can't have! Without intending to, I think you plaid your ace card with this manouevre last night!

 

 

I can seduce, i can use self control and all my other powers of seduction and attraction. but.... in the end its about two people.

And by your own admission, Rich, she is ready to start playing your game - she was waiting for you to kiss her!! Doesn't get much better than this.

 

How about taking her to a salsa lesson - fun, sexy, music - what more could you want?

 

G xx

 

P.S. Rich please call me GeeCee, not ceecee!!

 

P.P.S. And Rich, please don't apologise for that.

[rich_1517]

LOL - ceecee wil you date me?

 

nah we both know too many tricks now, of course that could make it interesting.

 

i have been looking into salsa already.

 

ok fair enough, not maybe the games so much letting go but the guard? but the thing that cannot change is always seduce until you are dead.

 

 

[neallo82288]

I have thought about this my friend and have told you that you are on the right path and must continue down this path straight and narrow. Keep up the slight aloofness and play a little hard to get, but not too much of either.

 

Now, my date idea:

 

Carriage ride around a park ( if available) and comedy club. The club should kep you both laughing and the carriage ride should be romantic enough.

 

or maybe a sunset dinner on a beach, which is followed by a causal stroll down the beach and see those eyes light up.

 

Your friend,

Neallo

[GeeCee]

Now I wouldn't mind a date with Neallo .... but that's, presumably a different website!!

 

Rich - you are making so much progress. The doubt is disappearing with each of your posts. I am happy for you!

 

G xx

[Beec]

If I had to pick one of the above, I would be salsa dancing with GeeCee. It can be fun, it should be physical, it doesn't really force you into slow dancing / kissing range. Good idea. One warning, make sure you can dance before you go. In fact a primer lesson for you would be a good idea. Women like guys who do things well, so if you are going to take her dancing, mkae sure you will look decent doing it.

 

The carriage ride I would leave for after I already know I've got her and want to make her feel special. Be fun or interesting now, wait for romantic until she is falling back in. Then when you know she is, spring it on her big time. My move is a well-planned dinner at your place, match the food, wine, music, etc., have her walk in and watch you finish cooking with a glass of wine, have almost everything ready (wine open, main course in oven, cheese plate ready to go with some fruit or something, dessert in the frig, etc.). Ask when that day comes and I would be happy to help you plan. Carriage ride can work too.

 

I agree with GeeCee on just about everything, such as her trying to kiss Rich. Rich, stopping it was a probably good move.

 

Rich, never stop playing the game entirely. Sure, you do get to levels where you are comfortable and can be a little needy and show emotion. You have to after a while. But you also need to go and make and effort to play every once in a while. I have been seeing the same woman for months, but I still play the game with her. Not every moment, but at least once a month. You can play a lot of little moves or fewer big ones. The timing and type of your moves should vary. If you are dating and walk in on a Tuesday night, give her a huge kiss and be very affectionate and trying to turn her one for hours, then you might get some. If you pull the same move three Tuesday nights in a row, it won't work as well. However, if you walk in and do that one week, then the next week you walk in and take her immediately, she won't know how you are going to make you mvoe next week, but she will be anticipating it. She will think it is coming. So, you fake the first one then leave without getting it to keep her guessing.

 

In the end, it might be two people, but right now it is all about how you make her feel, while appearing not to be needy.

 

Keep going.

[GeeCee]

If I had to pick one of the above, I would be salsa dancing with GeeCee.

Was beginning to think that you would never ask, honey!

 

The carriage ride I would leave for after I already know I've got her and want to make her feel special. Be fun or interesting now, wait for romantic until she is falling back in.

Absolutely agree - this is far too early for this type of romantic gesture.

 

Then when you know she is, spring it on her big time. My move is a well-planned dinner at your place, match the food, wine, music, etc., have her walk in and watch you finish cooking with a glass of wine, have almost everything ready (wine open, main course in oven, cheese plate ready to go with some fruit or something, dessert in the frig, etc.).

Ooooooh - this is good!

 

I agree with GeeCee on just about everything, such as her trying to kiss Rich. Rich, stopping it was a probably good move.

Oh - now I am blushing!!

 

Rich, never stop playing the game entirely. Sure, you do get to levels where you are comfortable and can be a little needy and show emotion. You have to after a while. But you also need to go and make and effort to play every once in a while. I have been seeing the same woman for months, but I still play the game with her. Not every moment, but at least once a month. You can play a lot of little moves or fewer big ones. The timing and type of your moves should vary. If you are dating and walk in on a Tuesday night, give her a huge kiss and be very affectionate and trying to turn her one for hours, then you might get some. If you pull the same move three Tuesday nights in a row, it won't work as well. However, if you walk in and do that one week, then the next week you walk in and take her immediately, she won't know how you are going to make you mvoe next week, but she will be anticipating it. She will think it is coming. So, you fake the first one then leave without getting it to keep her guessing.

Evolve the game all the time - Enough said!

 

Rich - got a game-plan?

 

G xx

[rich_1517]

hmmm, the date. i was thinking i would make dinner, take her to jazz. salsa may be a little to soon, she would feel awkward. but physical is important so after Jazz a walk around the city, the clubs are in a great area.

 

option 2. working on it will post.

 

ceecee -> beec you should group post as ceebee. im so happy you two are blossoming on my post. i feel all "sticky"

 

neallo nice to have your input too.

 

 

thanks team

[Beec]

I've used and would not be afraid to use a concert for a date like this. But I would go for something louder, stadning room, and something that makes you move. I was pretty sucessful using an SRO James Brown concert. Some music along those lines, would work well. The sex in your body language just has to come out. While you cannot say anything to screw it up. Sedate jazz, you are back in the same atmosphere as the art musuem. Be careful bunching together cerebral dates.

[rich_1517]

nice call....... hadnt thought of that. sweet.

 

i um stand corrected on a blatant faux pas. GeeCee, apologies. so that would make you two, yup thats right. BeeGee's

[Beec]

Of course I agree with to GeeCee.

 

 

Then when you know she is, spring it on her big time. My move is a well-planned dinner at your place, match the food, wine, music, etc., have her walk in and watch you finish cooking with a glass of wine, have almost everything ready (wine open, main course in oven, cheese plate ready to go with some fruit or something, dessert in the frig, etc.).

 

 

Ooooooh - this is good!

 

 

Right now I am envisioning Osso Buco, a nice Sangiovese or Borollo wine, some decent Italian cheeses (tart semi-sharp, not salty) with a few grapes (sweetest I could find), a salad similar to but not a Caesar, some polenta hardened into slices then grilled or baked wtiha cream sauce of them on one side and the sauce from the Osso Buco mixing in on the other side, and for dessert some cold-poached pears with whipped cream and liquer or dessert wine.

 

My music keyed for when she rang the bell and would begin with a little instrumental Italian Baroque (Vivaldi Fall from the Four Seasons or some other collection of concertos, only one song/piece). This would be followed by a little mellow opera aria, then one I could sing to somewhat while I finished cooking (think Nessun Dorma) and my singing would be noticeable but quiet. Immediately when I was done singing, I would apologize half-heartedly for singing and say I don't have the voice for it but like it. Shortly after dinner would be served and we would go back to instrumentals, which would keep playing until dinner was done and then shortly thereafter something to sing again. By that time, I would hope that I did not need to and could not sing to her, as I should be otherwise occupied.

 

Switch to any type of food and switch the music to fit the food. Germanic food, use some Mozart, Bach, even sneak in some Franz Lehar sung in German.

 

American, I would stick to southern U.S. food. I would begin with some thing halfway from Jazz to Blues, switch to soul/blues when I was singing in the kitchen (a quick dance step would work as an alternative), back to Jazz then some soul and blues again.

 

I would try to begin with something familiar, with Jazz nothing could beat Coltrane's My Favorite Things, one of the easiest to listen to great Jazz albums. I would follow with Louis Armstrong singing "What a Wonderful World." Dinner music, something like Stan Getz, work my way into Miles Davis, finish back with My Favorite Things next two tunes. Segway into soemthing that is a pop standard with a bluesy feel, then go to the Muddy Waters or John Lee Hooker. Five CDs, should work for most.

 

FYI, I pick Coltrane because almost all women love the "Sound of Music", the title track from the "My Favorite Things" CD is a cover of the song from the movie, she will know it enough to like it. It is followed by a romantic tune (Everytime We Say Goodbye) and then a more upbeat one (Summertime). I would cut away from the album after the one song because you do not want to get romantic early on. It looks too much like you are making a huge play. You are but don't make it look too much like it. Never play the fourth and last track, which is all about losing your lover. This is a good example of things I would consider in picking music.

 

The whole idea is to make the music fit the mood you are trying to create. You need a CD changer so you can cue up to do this. Don't be playing anything too adventurous. You want her to like the music. Feel comfortable with it. She should have a decent chance of knowing the tunes.

 

My American meal, something I could have ready when she got there for the most part, but had to finish the appetizer with her there. Since i am workign with music of a Southern origin (maybe not Coltrane, but Jazz is), I am cooking Southern food. I'd be going with something like Jambalaya, begin with some crab cakes, have some home made cornbread and finish with an apple crisp.

 

You can do this with anything. Cook Caribbean and bring in the reggae and calypso. Etc. etc. But when you go to the reggae, don't go into the old Yellowman she won't know, stick to the Bob Marley familiar stuff.

 

Look at your CD collection and plan you meal around it. Unless you want to buy more CDs.

 

And Rich, your woman would not be getting this treatment form me, not until I pretty much knew she was mine.

[GeeCee]

Rich

 

You could pay a lot of money for this stuff!!!

 

 

 

Just a thought - a peurile one, I admit - I'm guessing you get laid quite regularly Beec!!!!!

 

Rich - print this out - and adapt it to suit your comfort factor, and both of your dietary/musical likes.

 

G xx

[spatzcolumbo]

Woah, long complex post from beec there....i laughed half way through....because i pictured myself trying to pull that kinda thing off...

 

picture the scene...i'm just cooking the last few bits of toast for the cheese on toast feast that i am cooking for that special girl, and then the "Cheap Cheesey Hits" CD starts skipping. I only chose it to match the meal!?! What do i do?? So i run quickly to the lounge, and take a hammer to the CD Player. Stupid thing ruining my date - i'll show it who the boss is. Then, my date walks through the door at this exact moment, only to see me slightly angry, and flushed from cooking and beating up the CD player. Buy hey, if i choose the right music for my dessert (Fish Surprise) then i *might* just pull it off!!! Now what goes with Fish?? I'm thinking some old Sea Shanty - maybe the one they sing in 'Jaws'....:

 

*Show me the way to go home, i'm tired and i wanna go to bed. I had a little drink about an hour ago, and its gone right to my head*

 

Hahaha is there a reason i'm single???

 

Great post Beec.

[Beec]

 

Just a thought - a peurile one, I admit - I'm guessing you get laid quite regularly Beec!!!!!

 

Rich - print this out - and adapt it to suit your comfort factor, and both of your dietary/musical likes.

 

G xx

 

If I cook a meal like I described, I would expect to be getting some.

[Beec]

 

 

Thanks Spatz.

 

Why I plan things: so I don't look like the backside of a mule when I am trying to be suave.

 

I think you would be better leaving the cheese untoasted or maybe working with only a fondue pot. But that would be laying the cheese on a bit thick.

 

You want to approach cheesey, but not quite get there. One more little bit toward overly romantic and you will be there. It, like most other things in dating and romance, is a fine line to tread.

 

So avoid the fondue of Italian cheeses, with a bottle of Chianti wrapped in straw, accompanied by Frank Sinatra singing "let's forget about Domani", followed by a cannoli, cappuccino and sambuca. With a fairly sophisticated woman, you would be padlocking your own zipper.

[spatzcolumbo]

My ex LOVED fondues - and raclettes. Both very nice. Both very cheese based!!!!

 

But agreed, overly romantic is NOT good. Only the VERY cool can pull of overly romantic!!!

[GeeCee]

 

 

OH MY LORD!!!!! Sometimes, every now and then, I forget why I am here - and I laugh sooooo hard!!!!

 

Thanks you soooo much for that visual Spatz - it will stay with me for a long time!!!!

 

G xx

[Beec]

Thanks Spatz, you jsut taught me something. I do not recall having ever heard of a raclette. You mentioned it and the internet provided more info. Very nice, yes that could make for a very romantic but cheesey evening.

 

Although, I think I would try to pull it off by being playful and slightly silly. Probably better for when you can seem to do it impromptu. You are out with your woman on a chilly afternoon, and dinner is on the horizon, you talk about where to go, then you suddenly have a brain storm, home to have raclette, joke once you start about how cheesey it is, thn put on the really cheesey mood music. At that time, I would not be so conerend about matching the origin of the music and would just go for all out cheese. I would be putting on a CD of duets from Ray Charles and Betty Carter, on which the do absolute cheese standards from the 1940's, like "People will say we're in love" from Oklahoma. With everything tongue in cheek, I think I could make it work, with most women I have dated. It would probably not be the first dinner I make for her. I would want her to have experienced one of my other ones before.

[rich_1517]

Wow, well thats definitely a nice romantic date. When i see the moment i will take it. i am very good cook and massage is my favorite pastime.

 

im glad you all are having fun, the monotony of feelings can get old.

 

she has agreed to a date saturday. i have never done anything even remotely like this. to try and re-seduce someone i have had a long relationship with, who is hesitant. its hard to keep the confidence up.

 

I have been a fairly successful gentleman, and the idea of high school nerouvsness about a date with someone who has walls is um, hard.

 

i wanted to lock saturday up now but also to include my approach of "i can surprise you or if you want we can plan it together, i want to be sure we do something you like" she said you know what i like.

 

when i first asked about saturday, she said she wasnt sure, that she may have something going on. man does that sting, i have to remember that i am "dating" and her time is not our time. as i said she can blow hot and cold. i want to ask if she is dating, but let me guess no i cant ask?

 

now remember i am using this forum to vent my fears so read between the lines here:

 

i am nervous and afraid. she said when we talked about dating - she said "i see you more as friend" - "i may have a motive to keep you as a friend" - "either one of us can break this off". very under control woman.

 

but this all comes back to: do i walk this path confident in the outcome, not be daunted by her reserve and focus on the goal?

 

my gut tells me that her concerns and the passage of time will make it now easier to just let go... that we have been down this road and she will just let it drop.

 

strategy could say time to get her attention by disappearing, let her date others and wonder where i went. i cant shake my lack of confidence in this working out sometimes, i am stuck on doing anything aggressive either way becuase i feel her seeming lack of interest. i know that sounds weak, but i still have those moments.

 

how the hell do i win this girl over?