Avoiding flatmate's bogan boyfriend

[purpleduckie]

I have problems. I won't deny it. And no, of course I don't enjoy putting people down and rejecting them. I started this thread because I want to be able to invite people around to visit, and this guy's presense is making me think twice about using my home as a place to catch up with people. I considered canceling a dinner party because of him. So my not liking him is a problem, which is why I'm here talking about it.

 

I'm increasingly starting to think that my best option is to make more of an effort to be nice to him and try to accept him.

 

that's pretty much where i was going with my post.

[i_win]

I have problems. I won't deny it. And no, of course I don't enjoy putting people down and rejecting them. I started this thread because I want to be able to invite people around to visit, and this guy's presense is making me think twice about using my home as a place to catch up with people. I considered canceling a dinner party because of him. So my not liking him is a problem, which is why I'm here talking about it.

 

I'm increasingly starting to think that my best option is to make more of an effort to be nice to him and try to accept him.

 

Could you request to your roomate that they not be around for your dinner dates? Just say, hey I'm having people over on xx date and would prefer if him or you two weren't there so I could have some private time with my friends?

[Syntax1985]

Could you request to your roomate that they not be around for your dinner dates? Just say, hey I'm having people over on xx date and would prefer if him or you two weren't there so I could have some private time with my friends?

 

seems more then fair, they're using the flat all the time for themselves, wouldn't hurt for them to "get lost" for 1 night.

[Lucy__lou]

that's pretty harsh. My room mate is really friendly, and is always welcoming to me, and has always tried to be my friend, and the atmosphere around here is pretty friendly and inclusive. I like it like that too, that if you cook up a big dinner for friends, you invite the housies to eat with you as well. I just don't know what to expect from the boyfriend. Maybe I need to test him out, since I've been shutting myself away. I just wish he was more shy, but I'm guessing he'll want to hang out with us the whole night, after dinner as well. I just hope he doesn't talk too much, because it's not for him, its for me and my friends to catch up.

[Syntax1985]

the atmosphere around here is pretty friendly and inclusive. I like it like that too

 

im sorry but you seem to be changing your colour palette every 5 minutes,

[Lucy__lou]

im sorry but you seem to be changing your colour palette every 5 minutes,

 

I'm not sure I follow. I guess I like the inclusive thing in theory, but I'm having trouble practicing it in real life. It was easier when the inclusivity thing wasn't challenged too much. i.e. when I liked everyone who frequented this house.

[Syntax1985]

well 1 minute its horrible and hell to have him arround, next minute your flat is "pretty friendly and inclusive",

 

meh confuses the hell out of me, but im off to bed, good luck with what ever you do.

[saltandvinegar]

What is "bogan"?

 

 

LOL

 

Australian term for person who has no sophistication, may be of low socio economic background, may be crass, may be of "low" class. Like trailer trash. Bogan can refer to male or female.

 

Bogan/ Bush Pig/ trailer trash/ skanky ho.

 

Also can be referred to as a "Bevan"

[Lucy__lou]

Thanks Syntax and everyone else.

 

You've been really helpful. I'm going to try to be more positive and focus on what I can influence rather than controlling stuff outside of myself i.e. other people. It won't be easy, but I'll just observe, and stop hoping for the impossible.

[i_win]

the atmosphere around here is pretty friendly and inclusive.

Really?!?!

[CaptainPlanet]

What is "bogan"?

 

Bogans are not necessarily low class. They're blokes, manly men. They probably grew up in a fringe suburb and some are pretty cashed up. Lots are tradesmen and a lot are total and complete jerks don't get me wrong I've had a lot of bad experiences with these people in various customer service positions. Others are just normal people making an honest living.

 

The term bogan is totally different to trailer trash because in Australia incomes are more even than in the USA. The bogan forklift driver could well be pulling $35 an hour... the bogan plumber charging $100 an hour in his own business. While the professional, with debts, unable to exercise union power of charge by the hour or command overtime pay is in reality earning a lot less in absolute dollar terms.

 

They're cashed up having never take on student debts, or lost income due to studying. They're wide and varied group but mostly it is the way you act, not necessarily how much class, or money you make. Lots go on to be accountants, and engineers but you're always going to have that bogan element if that is how you grew up. You know how there are different parts of the US, where people act differently and have slightly different ways of speaking and acting, it is tending to be a little bit like that.

 

I know many classless educated people and bogans that are really good blokes. They do however, have some bad eggs that are really bad, unfortunately encompass a large part of the group.

 

But you've got to give each the benefit of the doubt and try to like the person. Otherwise you are just as classless as the worst bogan. You can't just dismiss the person for being different, much less a flat mates boyfriend.

 

It's really rude I know, but at the moment, he's making an effort to be friendly and put me at ease, and I don't need to be put at ease, I just want him to respect the fact that I don't like his company, and its not personal, but more a distaste for most men, especially macho guys, and that there's nothing he can do do fix it, so he should just learn to live with it, and maybe not spend SO much time in my kitchen/lounge room.

 

Honestly I think you are the one who is at fault and should be more tolerant of his differences. If you truly do not like men to that extent I would suggest seeking therapy or some sort of professional help. Frankly that is not only wrong but it is also anti social to the extent that it will harm you in your every day life. For your interests I think you need to address why you dislike men so much and address those problems because it isn't logical to have such a dislike for a gender that you will not be in the same room. You should definitely not say anything as he is welcomed into the home by being the partner of a flat mate. Which is part of communal living, accepting your flat mates guests. Perhaps a singular apartment might be better ? Could you move out and can you afford your own place if this issue is causing sufficient distress.

[Lucy__lou]

Thanks for that Captain.

 

To be honest, I'm not a bogan hater. I just hate unquestioning machoism. Bogan is such a broad term, and it does have a strong link to the working class, as in blue collar, and like you said, trades, and mostly male. I usually use 'bogan' as a term of endearment. But I just used it here to get the gist accross quickly.

 

We also have yobbos in Australia and the UK. Whereas a bogan may not be interested in sport, and a yobbo lives for Aussie rules football, they both like to drink a lot and express their machoism in one way or another, whilst being drunk and uncouth. Bogans tend to be more the under dog, and tend to have more self destructive behaviours, whereas the bad behaviour of yobbos tends to be more externally expressed, and our society accepts their behaviour as just Aussies having fun.

 

And while being a bogan may be a low status position in life, it has the power of numbers keeping it as a kind of community that people, especially men can be part of. You subscribe to the macho norms of your mates, and you're in. But the macho behaviour is scary for the gentle folk who chose not to be part of that world. And it takes guts to reject it. Especially if you're not from the aristocracy.

[Lucy__lou]

If you truly do not like men to that extent I would suggest seeking therapy or some sort of professional help...it isn't logical to have such a dislike for a gender that you will not be in the same room.

 

I don't think I need therapy for my dislike of machoism. I think many people secretly hate it too, but they force themselves to accept it because it's too hard to fight it, because it's everywhere. But I'm not one to back down and pretend to like something when I don't. I think machoism is antisocial, and I refuse to learn to like it. This does make it more difficult to get on in life, but I believe that no change can come in the world if we all lay down and accept the things we know are bad.

 

Perhaps a singular apartment might be better ? Could you move out and can you afford your own place if this issue is causing sufficient distress.

 

That would be nice, although I do like living with other people, but I think I need to either learn to be more tolerant of people I don't like, or try harder to find housemates who are less likely to bring home bogan boys. I usually try to live with non heterosexuals for this reason, and usually do, but in this instance, I've found myself living with a straight girl, and the predictable bogan boyfriend scenario that I feared has happened. I know people will shoot me down for making these unfair generalisations, but seriously, the odds of a macho bogan sitting in your kitchen on a Sunday morning are much much higher if you live with a straight girl. they just are!

[saltandvinegar]

Im talking extreme bogan, not "tradie bogan".

 

"Tradie bogan" is more what I would call "ocker"

[lady00]

I don't think I need therapy for my dislike of machoism. I think many people secretly hate it too, but they force themselves to accept it because it's too hard to fight it, because it's everywhere. But I'm not one to back down and pretend to like something when I don't. I think machoism is antisocial, and I refuse to learn to like it.

 

Maybe I missed something, but is there anything specific that he does that puts you off? Or is it just that your impression of who he is puts you off? Do you even know him well enough to know if he has off-putting qualities? Or are you just going off of stereotypes of the type of person you think he is?

[saltandvinegar]

Maybe I missed something, but is there anything specific that he does that puts you off? Or is it just that your impression of who he is puts you off? Do you even know him well enough to know if he has off-putting qualities? Or are you just going off of stereotypes of the type of person you think he is?

 

 

She's just threatened by anyone who isnt a member of her sociological tribe.

 

When i was at art college I was a bit like this. I used to say (outloud) dumb things like "I could never have a boyfriend who wasnt an artist" and cr@p like that.

 

Nowadays, I've been in the real world, and give me a tradesman with a good heart anyday.

[Lucy__lou]

Maybe I missed something, but is there anything specific that he does that puts you off? Or is it just that your impression of who he is puts you off? Do you even know him well enough to know if he has off-putting qualities? Or are you just going off of stereotypes of the type of person you think he is?

He's not even the worst of the worst. He's a nice guy, I'm sure, but he dresses in a drab and sloppy way, with long unkempt hair, no style, and he'll say 'f***ing' like e.g. 'we went hiking, f****ing white water rafting, absailing.' so it's totally unnecessary. It's an ugly habit. It could be a lot worse, I know, but I feel that if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem. I get pissed off when I see gentle well mannered women going along with this culture of men. I see it and I chose not to be one of those women.

[CaptainPlanet]

I think you should show more respect to masculinity. After all it was aggressive men that built this society and continue to protect it.I believe your views that it is bad are inaccurate.

 

I think masculine expression is good. As it is when women do the same thing. I respect both and believe we should never lose site of traditional gender roles in a symbolic way, so that we can appreciate the differences between the sexes. I also believe that expression of either, in any way, is a beautiful thing and should be encouraged.

 

I like feminine women and I know many women like men who act masculine. The whole thing is just a form of expression. My personal opinion is that you need to show more respect towards people's differences.

[Lucy__lou]

We're at odds, Captain. Big time, I mean, to re phrase what you said, it was macho aggression which got us into this god awful mess we're in, exploitation of people by people, and a planet that's in crisis. Our society would be a lot better without the so called 'achievements' of men. I know I wasn't asked whether I wanted society to 'evolve' the way it has over HIStory.

 

As for the traditional gender roles and stuff, I mean if a man just naturally has a lot of alpha male traits, that's cool, and I don't think he should repress it. But I do think he needs to be self aware and understand the role culture plays in proscribing certain gender roles, and not take it for granted that these roles have social impacts in replicating power relations. It's the men who just echo the way society has told them to act unquestioningly that I have problems with.

 

To take this conversation back to my problem with this guy my housemate is dating, and personal appearance. I believe that women tend to their appearances more than men because when you have less power in society, and you know that what you say isn't listened to anyway, you have more reason to try to look good, because you are looked at but not listened to. Men don't bother looking good because they know that when they speak, people listen. They are judged on what they think, so they don't have to worry about looking good, because they can get recognition and respect just by speaking. For me, men who don't look in the mirror are rubbing my nose in the fact that they can get by in life without having to look good. It pisses me off.

[saltandvinegar]

To take this conversation back to my problem with this guy my housemate is dating, and personal appearance. I believe that women tend to their appearances more than men because when you have less power in society, and you know that what you say isn't listened to anyway, you have more reason to try to look good, because you are looked at but not listened to. Men don't bother looking good because they know that when they speak, people listen. They are judged on what they think, so they don't have to worry about looking good, because they can get recognition and respect just by speaking. For me, men who don't look in the mirror are rubbing my nose in the fact that they can get by in life without having to look good. It pisses me off.

 

I would certainly agree with that when it comes to newsreaders on television.

[bulletproof]

To take this conversation back to my problem with this guy my housemate is dating, and personal appearance. I believe that women tend to their appearances more than men because when you have less power in society, and you know that what you say isn't listened to anyway, you have more reason to try to look good, because you are looked at but not listened to. Men don't bother looking good because they know that when they speak, people listen. They are judged on what they think, so they don't have to worry about looking good, because they can get recognition and respect just by speaking. For me, men who don't look in the mirror are rubbing my nose in the fact that they can get by in life without having to look good. It pisses me off.

 

But you do realize that nobody is deliberately rubbing your nose in anything, particularly this guy, right? Basically, you're saying that you believe women aren't heard enough and have to dress to get attention, yet you're not even willing to hear out this guy because of how he's dressed. Isn't that sort of the same thing, in reverse?

 

I think it's unfair for you to expect him to "learn" something from you. Be a little bit humble and try being nice to someone that might challenge your preconceived notions.

[Lucy__lou]

Now let me clear this one up...

Basically, you're saying that you believe women aren't heard enough and have to dress to get attention

No I'm saying that women aren't heard enough, and thereforee if they look bad, are judged harshly, and so feel pressured to look perfect in order to avoid harsh judgement, whereas if a man looks bad, no one bats an eye. A man is judged on what he says and does.

 

If you can't relate to my feeling that the act of dressing badly whilst being a man, is rubbing womens' noses in the inequalities, that's fine. Not everyone reading this will relate.

 

Can you remind me, are you a boy or a girl? I forget

[aquatic]

but I just don't want to connect with him, because I find his manner yuck, the way he swears, the way he doesn't make any effort in his appearance, the way he talks as if people care what he has to say when maybe they don't. He's really a nice guy I'm sure, but I don't like his kind.

"

 

Though I am aware of your "man-phobia", based on your previous posts (and you've been consistent on that, and sure, I can respect that), the above statement is... something. At first I thought it was just panic, but as you explained further on, it's actually snottiness. And that you're proud of it is precious. You're proud you're a classist? I'm not poor, but I'm appalled as a person to encounter people who belittle others so shallowly. Don't get me wrong, I don't know you and this instance is just a tiny fraction of your life, so I'm not saying you're evil or what, but as you re-read that quoted lines above, I hope you see that more about you is reflecting than about him.

 

For such vitriol, you'd think this guest spits on your floor, spreads lice in the house, leers at you, scratches inappropriate parts or raids your ref. lol. Your personal views (on gender inequality) doesn't excuse you from being a disrespectful person. I don't mean canoodle with the guy, but respect him as a person would be good enough since he hasn't even done anything to you except breathe the same air you do. I give you credit though that you haven't actually done anything confrontational and that you're "evaluating " the situation. Lucy_lou, you find good people and assholes accross all social classes. You say you have more class than him, start showing it.

 

I know I'm being a b**** but that's how I feel. I'm even reluctant to invite friends over for tea, because then there's a chance he'll want to hang out with us.

Invite them over. It would be interesting how similarly or differently they'd treat him.

[bulletproof]

Now let me clear this one up... No I'm saying that women aren't heard enough, and thereforee if they look bad, are judged harshly, and so feel pressured to look perfect in order to avoid harsh judgement, whereas if a man looks bad, no one bats an eye. A man is judged on what he says and does.

 

If you can't relate to my feeling that the act of dressing badly whilst being a man, is rubbing womens' noses in the inequalities, that's fine. Not everyone reading this will relate.

 

Can you remind me, are you a boy or a girl? I forget

 

What does it matter if I'm male or female? Do you really think I want to answer that given what you've posted so far regarding your judgments?

 

I understood perfectly what you were saying about how women aren't being "heard". I was simply drawing a parallel between men allegedly judging women by how they dress (determining whether they're worth listening to) and how you are judging this guy by how he dresses (and determining he's *not* worth listening to).

 

I still really think it's a huge stretch to think anyone is rubbing anyone's nose in anything. It sounds a little paranoid, actually.

[Lucy__lou]

"

but as you explained further on, it's actually snottiness. And that you're proud of it is precious. You're proud you're a classist?

I realise how what I said in that quote sounds snotty and classist, the way I said "his kind." I take full responsibility for that poor choice in words. It's not like I hang with or desire to hang with the middle class. I just don't like his behaviour. If he were a private school boy, and I was a private school girl, chances are I'd find reasons to hate him which are unique to private school boys. I think the middle class has as many or more problems in it, but I'm just not in a good position to criticise because I don't know it as well. I do know that it's more subtle than working class cultures. And just because a large proportion of the population exhibit a behaviour, doesn't make it good. It just makes it common. I have a problem with people who unthinkingly duplicate ugly traits which society has passed down to them. It doesn't win me a lot of friends since it's the status quo that I have a problem with, but I don't see how I can change my distaste for distasteful behaviour, short of brainwashing myself. And as i said, I want to be part of the change I wish to see in the world, so I don't think that forcing myself to not mind distasteful behaviour is the way to do that. If you want to change the world, you have to know what you want and what you don't want. I know that when I meet men who go against the grain and are gentle, polite, look after themselves physically, I am extra nice to them. I want those men to succeed instead of the pigs. (no offense to actual pigs).

 

".... I don't mean canoodle with the guy, but respect him as a person would be good enough since he hasn't even done anything to you except breathe the same air you do.

 

I'm trying. And I will continue to try. I am appreciative of the help I'm getting here. Remember, I'm not venting for the fun of it. I'm trying to do the right thing, but I'm trying to be honest with myself at the same time. If you force yourself to pretend you like someone when you don't it can backfire.

 

 

 

I still really think it's a huge stretch to think anyone is rubbing anyone's nose in anything. It sounds a little paranoid, actually.

 

That comment about having one's nose rubbed in the fact that men can get away with looking awful was a side comment, and general, not specifically targeted at this guy. But he does dress shabbily, and appears not to make an effort. So he has been put in that category. I have less regard for men who make no effort in their appearance. I find it disrespectful to society when they think it doesn't matter. And it's part of Australian macho culture that ridicules men for taking too much pride in their appearance. So men who defy that ridicule and still try to look nice are going against what macho culture tells them to do, and for that they have my support and respect. And the men who don't go against it, well I resent them.