Clingers and Avoiders

[musashi]

Good post! Man, I wish I would have found this site years ago. One of the things I have learned is that it is possible to give too much love to someone who is not used to it. I never thought it was possible to love someone too much but it is so true.

 

My ex had never experienced anyone truly loving her. She came from a large family (7 siblings) so everything was spread thin, including affection. All of her previous boyfriends treated her like crap or like nothing more than a thing. Here I come along and shower her with love and attention. She responded wonderfully on the outside. Told me I was the best boyfriend a girl could ask for, blahblahblah. But inside she was questioning her feelings for me because she could not match the level of affection. Hell, she never knew how! She came to the conclusion that she must not love me if she is not matching me! How crazy is that? If I would have learned about "love units", "clinger/avoiders", "pendulum swings", etc., I probably could have stopped her feelings of doubt.

[EyesOnThePrize]

Well, I'll say this..if you look at Al's site, and you go to the "What to do when he/she leaves" page, you'll see a lot of my story...and I think you'll see how much I've changed since I started posting there about 2 months ago. While it may or may not help me recover my past relationship, I think its helping me evolve into a much better person for my next one.

 

I have 20 posters of things I've pulled off that site taped up by my desk. 19 of them are at home on my bathroom mirror (I didn't put the 20th up because I thought the ex would misinterpret it...now that she's gone, I'll add it). I have e-mailed back and forth to him a lot, and am probably going to get some coaching from him. He's become a bit of a mentor to me, and I'm exceptionally thankful to the person who pointed me to his site.

[WaterIsLife]

Very well said. Me? I was the avoider in my last relationship. I was the one running away. Not running away because I did not want it, but because of the way it was presented to me. It was presented by someone that wanted something for themself, a clinger. Nothing wrong with being either. But like many, neither (OR BOTH) of us realized it for what it was as you describe.

 

 

 

Don't be so hard on yourself! Show me a cat that has not filed for emancipation at least once!!!!!

 

 

 

No, it does make sense. Like many, I have abandonment issues too. By not really having active parental figures during formative years but also my mother, when I was an adult and finally able to communicate with her, passing away at too young an age. It does make sense. A part of you does not want to be vulnerable.

[rapunzel]

My ex was also from a family of 7 children. He is the youngest (as am I) and his sister born just before him was killed in a tragic accident when they were both in their teens. He said it was the hardest thing he had to go through. I wonder if this had any effect on his ability to be vulnerable in a relationship with a woman. I'll be honest, I hadn't though about this much.

 

Once again, I do think it is exceedingly difficult to put this pendulum balancing stuff into practice when you are in the midst of the relationship. Then again, it all depends on the timing. If I met someone say tomorrow (highly unlikely but I can dream!), and I fell for him the way I fell for my ex, then at this point in my life I would be smart and jaded enough to say to myself: "whoa, Nellie! Get a hold of yourself!" And I'd be vigilant to not let myself be the one who falls in love more than my partner, and thus keep the pendulum in check.

 

What tends to happen with me is it is so rare that I connect with a person like I did with my ex, and SO much time goes by between finding that connection...that when it DOES happen...it's so exciting, and wonderful....and so rare.... despite writing in my journal in the beginning of my relationship with my ex that I'm going to just take it as it comes and not project, and let him do his thing and be who he was (and I did do this, but when we were together I did not hold back with physical attention...at all...and I did not play hard to get), I tend to forget or ignore the whole pendulum thing. I actually did feel the dynamics swinging in his favor at a few points, and wrote in my journal that I was going to go away BY myself without telling him...but then I threw the journal in a drawer as he was coming over, could not find it. I searched for it. When the time came for that trip, I asked him to join me and that overnight trip was the straw that BROKE the camel's back. ](*,) I often wonder - had I read my journal - listened to my own advice, and gone away for the weekend without him - if things would have turned out differently.

 

And also to be in love, one does have to be vulnerable in some way - it's the nature of the beast. If both people are holding back, afraid of taking that leap, then the relationship will never get off the ground.

[karvala]

But inside she was questioning her feelings for me because she could not match the level of affection. Hell, she never knew how! She came to the conclusion that she must not love me if she is not matching me!

 

That's an excellent insight! We judge feelings on behaviour as much as some internal sensation, and we actually judge our own feelings by looking at our own behaviour and comparing them to someone else. If the most prominent person for comparison is putting on a great show of affection, and we can't match it, then we end up concluding that our feelings aren't as strong, even if it's actually that we're just a different type of personality. I've experienced the "I guess I don't love you since if I did, I would treat you better" reasoning directly from a partner before, and I know others have too. It's a very good point you've highlighted here.

[EQD]

I'm a double avoider.... is that bad??? i think so.. lol

[EyesOnThePrize]

That's an excellent insight! We judge feelings on behaviour as much as some internal sensation, and we actually judge our own feelings by looking at our own behaviour and comparing them to someone else. If the most prominent person for comparison is putting on a great show of affection, and we can't match it, then we end up concluding that our feelings aren't as strong, even if it's actually that we're just a different type of personality. I've experienced the "I guess I don't love you since if I did, I would treat you better" reasoning directly from a partner before, and I know others have too. It's a very good point you've highlighted here.

 

Al's #1 premise is "All people make sense all the time." I have grown to really believe that. So, if I use "Eyes" logic to understand why my ex does certain things, I am likely to fail. For instance, I really pushed her to accept my family and they way they loved her, because it worked for me. I was just doing what made sense to me. However, her background was completely different, and she perceived it as forcing my family on her and it pushed her farther away. I didn't have her sense. Even the fact that I liked some PDAs and she didn't always bothered me. Again, I was attempting to force my sense on her without understanding her sense. I think that's what ultimately drove us apart. We were attempting to force each other into a mold. When I say "I'm attempting to turn myself into someone you would like to get together with", to me it means that "I am attempting to understand your sense and be able to validate you." She would always tell me "You don't get me!" and she was right, because I rarely looked for her sense. She even tells me "You get me more than anyone else in the world and you barely get me." I would now take hours, days, weeks to help understand her sense (and will with whomever I'm next in a serious relationship) so that I can put her head on my shoulders and not just think about everything from my perspective.

 

Ah, to have known this a year ago.

[Litgirl01]

That's an excellent insight! We judge feelings on behaviour as much as some internal sensation, and we actually judge our own feelings by looking at our own behaviour and comparing them to someone else. If the most prominent person for comparison is putting on a great show of affection, and we can't match it, then we end up concluding that our feelings aren't as strong, even if it's actually that we're just a different type of personality. I've experienced the "I guess I don't love you since if I did, I would treat you better" reasoning directly from a partner before, and I know others have too. It's a very good point you've highlighted here.

 

I haven't thought of this before...we all just take for granted that the other person thinks the way we think when in fact they have their own set of beliefs and experiences that may say otherwise. When I was teaching I had to take a seminar conducted by a lady named Ruby Payne (sp). Her premise was that every social class has hidden beliefs of what is and is not appropriate. This was to help teachers deal with kids of varied social classes. I have to say it was very relavant to life in general...it offered a lot of insight into why people think the way they think (tied primarily to social class in this case). It's similar to what you are saying though..because everyone has hidden beliefs depending on how they were raised! Sometimes we assume that everyone else thinks the same way we do..thus we run into trouble. Hope that all makes sense! Maybe by understanding each other's hidden beliefs by having open communication and awareness, we would be able to relate to our partners better???!!??

[Litgirl01]

Bump!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EyesOnThePrize]

Here is a link to link removed that I look at as a continuation of the clingers and avoiders. I also got a lot of value from this one.

[Litgirl01]

This is just SUCH a good topic...I hate to see it go!!! BUMP!!!

[EyesOnThePrize]

Geez, Litgirl - I was depending on you to bump this today.

[Litgirl01]

Bump!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-)

[EyesOnThePrize]

I wanted to post link removed, too. Its actually a follow-up to the "What to do when she/he leaves" article, and Al told me he wrote this one especially for me, which was flattering, although I believe it may be applicable to a lot of people.

 

The reason I'm posting it here is for the section called "A Trap for Clingers/Pursuers/Mazimizers/the Needy – like me." I found it pretty eye-opening...and frustrating, because I am of the "I WANT TO KNOW IT ALL NOW!!!" school.

[EyesOnThePrize]

Geez, Litgirl...still falling down on the job.

[postscript]

I am definitely a clinger, and my ex was back and forth a clinger and an avoider. The reason we broke up was because he became a full-on "avoider" and could no longer handle the amount of care and support and love that I forced out of him.

However, comparing math and love is confusing

[EyesOnThePrize]

Well, most people are clingers and avoiders at different points on the scale and in different aspects. My ex is a clinger in that she has to be in a relationship, however once she's in a relationship, she needs a lot of space. I'm clingy within a relationship (and am working on it), however I'm an avoider in social situations.

[EyesOnThePrize]

Enough people have mentioned getting value from this that I'm going to bump this thread.

[Litgirl01]

Bump again!!

[EyesOnThePrize]

Because my observation is that a lot of dumpees seem to have been clingers, I think that some members may find value in this thread.

[Buttercup21]

ya im a clinger!!!

[deang]

bump for good thread.

[DJC]

Well I was a clinger, but then again so was she, I believe this lead to us moving too fast and the main reason for the break-up

[bramage]

I was an avoider with my recent ex for 14 years. We dated on and off, she says I was mean to her, yet she kept coming back for more and always chased me. And I did some very unthoughtful things. Fast forward, in our last encounter, I fell in love, and got clingy.. whopps big mistake. Now we are done.. again. I think the NC will show Im now the avoider, and she will contact me. Im just not sure I ever want the drama again. We usually talk once a year.. It will be interesting to see if it goes that long, I think she will fold up any day now and call

[deang]

been both...but more often have been a clinger. I'm working towards striking a balance. I think leaning one way or the other is ok but too much of either is bad...I need to back off a lot of clinginess and then that'll probably be acceptable...I also think it's a balancing act with two people...the girl I hang out with now is an avoider and strangely between us we have been able to keep acceptable boundariess...whereas the ex and I started off as clingers and no one was able to set healthy boundaries and then she started to become an avoider and I just wanted to cling more.