why do people you're with blatantly lie to your face?

[studbaker99]

My gf just told me she loves me, and that she respects our relationship, BLAH BLAH BLAH.

 

I find that while she's telling me this, she's flirting and planning on meeting with guys she looks up on craigslist (dont ask me how i know *cough*email box*cough* - now that alone probably raises flags with most readers here, but I don't believe she would actually go and do 'anything' with them but flirt and feel desirable and meet new people. Maybe she would do the nasty or whatever. To be honest I probably don't care if she did, as we've been talking about having other people into the relationship (if you know what I mean) but what bugs me is her apparent need of hers to reach out and meet other men, all the while telling me she loves me and all that jazz.

 

This from the woman who previously, earlier in the relationship said 'open communication' is key (it hasn't been) and who said that "if you find someone who peaks your curiosity go for it" - since then we've moved to the whole 'i love you' part, but if she wants go to back to the earlier ages, I would really appreciate the decency and respect of being informed we're doing something else here!!!!...like 'lets see other people' or something.

 

I do feel disrespected - not because she's looking at meeting other men (well that's gonna hurt too), but because she's not telling me about it and she thinks she can get away with it. What's up with that????

[Enakmai]

What's up with that????

 

Get out? Normally, I don't use onomatopoeias, however, I'll make an exception.

 

Duh!

[shoegal21]

Get out? Normally, I don't use onomatopoeias, however, I'll make an exception.

 

Duh!

 

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[sweetheart607]

So what exactely is her crime talking to men on the internet? Has she said anything to these men to suggest anything out than friendship? I go on chat rooms a bit and talk to guy (and girls) sometimes i let them talk to me on msn at no point would i consider this cheating on my boyfriend they no i have a boyfriend and i talk to them about all kinds of random stuff. It doesn't make be love my boyfriend any less they are just people to chat to as mates. If my boy asked who i was talking to i'd tell him but as it hasn't come up i haven't mentioned it cos why do i need to i don't tell him of every of every conversation i have in real life either. Though at no point have i lied to him

[Enakmai]

So what exactely is her crime talking to men on the internet? Has she said anything to these men to suggest anything out than friendship? I go on chat rooms a bit and talk to guy (and girls) sometimes i let them talk to me on msn at no point would i consider this cheating on my boyfriend they no i have a boyfriend and i talk to them about all kinds of random stuff. It doesn't make be love my boyfriend any less they are just people to chat to as mates. If my boy asked who i was talking to i'd tell him but as it hasn't come up i haven't mentioned it cos why do i need to i don't tell him of every of every conversation i have in real life either. Though at no point have i lied to him

 

The general concept is that any rational minded person would at least suspect the opposing partner would feel betrayed, dismayed, or blindsided by the simultaneous action of claiming respect in a relationship while simultaneously looking up an exclusive gender, men, on an online website for friendship and romance.

[sweetheart607]

oh so its a romance website? ok that is weird. Why don't you ask her about it - but don't accuse her just ask.

[Enakmai]

oh so its a romance website? ok that is weird. Why don't you ask her about it - but don't accuse her just ask.

 

It's both romance and friendship, among other things. The two former terms are the only relevant ones.

[sweetheart607]

ok i just reread the post when did she lie right to your face? When she said she loves you or has she actually said she isn't doing this?

[Enakmai]

ok i just reread the post when did she lie right to your face? When she said she loves you or has she actually said she isn't doing this?

 

The implication is that the OP believes because the girlfriend is saying both things at the same time but not questioning her own behavior or cross referencing it with the OP, the girlfriend is deceiving him. He considers this equivalent to lying.

[PocoDiablo]

The reason why she is doing this is because you're doing the same thing right back to her.

 

If you know she's cheating (yeah, she's cheating) and you haven't told her point blank, then who's lying? You are! You are being passive-aggressive and not taking charge of yourself and being straight out honest with her. And if you are not being honest with her on this issue, I can only imagine the other issues you are lying about.

 

Yeah, so you snooped, but that's because you're insecure and that leads to suspicious behavior, jealously, and ultimately anger. The honest man would have said "I saw your email to some other guys, care to explain?" She'll attack you, of course, but that's when you tell her "It's irrelevant at this point - you're cheating, I felt it, I checked, and I was right. You're a liar and a cheater, and while I may have been suspicious it's because I could tell you were being unfaithful to me. Good bye and good luck with your online affairs."

 

Did she say one thing and do another? Did you call her on it? You have to do that for her to trust you'll do the right thing.

 

Hey, my wife did that, here's an example:

 

[Quick background: She's a waitress, sometimes flirts with customers who tip well to get them to come back. We have an agreement we don't meet anyone outside the club, because they all just want to get in her pants, doh.]

 

She says to me "Hey, this couple Andy and Amber came in and were really cool. They both are bartenders and 'know the business.' They offered to hang out with us [her and me] some night, so I gave them my number. When do you want to hang out?"

 

I says to her "Hey, that sounds great, and I am sure they're really nice people. However, you and I have an agreement. You told me that you were never going to give out your phone number unless they have tipped you well over $200 [yeah, fancy club!]. So you have violated that rule, and broken my trust with you on that. Why did you do that?"

 

She says "Oh... ... ... well they seemed like really nice people, and I guess I didn't think about it since they seemed to know the business. I'd really doubt anything bad would happen anyway, I mean, it's not like it was some single guy who wants to sleep with me, you know?"

 

Me says "I can't believe you just said that, after you and I *both* just watched that show on mass murderers! Remember how some of the killers were male and female COUPLES? While highly unlikely, they could be just as nuts if not worse. Besides, you broke your trust with me - you told me you would not give out your number to anyone, right?"

 

She says "Well, yeah, I guess I did, I'm sorry."

 

Me says "Hey, that's okay. I just want you to remember that we have to agree on these things, and you have to be true to your word to me. My trust in you is very important, so let's keep on track, okay?"

 

I was honest with her about our agreement and that is important.

 

Now, if I caught her flirting with men online ... bye bye baby!

[studbaker99]

hey everyone,

thanks for the responses. For some reason I didn't get any notifications in my inbox, so I'm just now checking it.

 

PocoDiablo - thank you for your (harsh) but true words. I didn't realize that my behavior was being passive-aggressive. I am pretty laid back go-with-the-flow kinda guy (i.e. in not so pretty words, passive) so it's my general tendency to kinda sit and see how far and where will it go, partially for fear of taking the wrong/harsh decision. I tend to go for strong go-getter women too, so that doesn't help.

 

But you're right - just the other day after some of this stuff surfacing, maybe in a passive aggressive way, I wanted to ask her 'hey where are we going with the relationship' (without mentioning any of my snooping or that I knew something was going on) since especially if we're not 'destined' for each other, then that's twice the stupidity to be suffering over this.

 

 

 

Lastly, I hate to admit publicly - but yes I can be clingy, controlling, jealous and all that nice stuff, in a passive-aggressive way, of course.

[studbaker99]

BTW - just thinking a bit further ahead - in the event that we break up - what da heck do we do with the common friends(which is a big part of my current social circle)? I wanna tell everyone she's been a cheating * * * * *, or, should I take the high road and if people ask I'll just say 'it just wasnt meant to be'?

 

We already have plans for 4th of july, and for a hike to half dome with friends. I suppose I can back out of hte 4th of july plans (since it was mostly her idea) and she back out of the hike? sorry, I know these things should just be dealt with after u deal with the big stuff, but I cant help but think how it would all play out.

[PocoDiablo]

You're welcome. Yeah, I don't really sugar coat what I say around here... Nothing personal!

 

May I suggest you investigate why you go for super-strong go-getter women? Perhaps it's because you have not yet decided to become a leader yourself? I see lots of young men pick women who are more "leaders" and are more mother-like in personalities. The problem is that this is a signal that you are more child-like, and seeking the guidance of a woman in a relationship. The problem is that women like this also are looking for a male leader who is more father-like or husband-like. So, in essense, you are saying "I'm the son, I need a mother." Problem is the "mother" wants a father, so she will seek out men who are more mature and adult acting.

 

How do you get over this? Well, understand that as you grow older, you have to start acting like an adult. That means making decisions, facing hard issues, dealing with them in a mature way (even, nay, especially when it's hard!), and still being calm, cool, polite, etc. You have to be able to make decisions, be fair, set limits, and not let people take advantage of you.

 

Honesty in yourself is hard - but it's required. Never lie to yourself about an issue. If you're confused, take some time to figure it out, but discuss it as soon as possible.

 

You may want to read link removed and buy his book. It can be very helpful.

 

Being clingy etc., is because of insecurity. You may also want to check out link removed and his book over at link removed as it may give you a different perspective on why you're like that. Finally, link removed has a great free email thing - just put your email on the home page and let them roll in. All of these writers (and others) can help you better understand that you're really just missing lessons on being an adult, being more mature, and understanding yourself and your role in relationships better.

[PocoDiablo]

And as far as the break up, always take the high road. Even if someone asks, be a gentleman and just tell them things didn't work out. You can still be friends with everyone else, even if she is mean. If that happens, just laugh it off and say something that is an obvious joke to defuse things, like "She still wants me ... for my cat! Tell her she can't have him." or whatever would make people chuckle and change the topic.

 

Basically, never share details of your relationships with anyone in your social circles. Kiss & tell is a bad thing, as everyone's reputation is an important thing to respect.

 

I'd back out of the plans with her if you break up (which I would suggest.)

[Rabican]

She's a *cough*.... garden tool, if you know what I mean. You cant turn one of those into a housewife, so dont try.

[PocoDiablo]

However, you and I have an agreement. You told me that you were never going to give out your phone number unless they have tipped you well over $200 [yeah, fancy club!]. So you have violated that rule, and broken my trust with you on that. Why did you do that?"

 

Totally off topic, but why is it okay for your wife to give her phone number to a patron just because they tip over $200? Why would there be ANY circumstance worth her giving her phone number out to a customer?

 

Very confused on that one! Seems all the more inappropriate since that big tipper could take that to mean he bought her time and attention.

First, it's an anonymous prepaid phone. Second, she doesn't give out her real name. Third, when a big tipper comes around, making him feel like he's not just any old customer often entices them to come back and tip her again and again. Forth, she doesn't call these customers and talk to them unless she moves to a new bar (which she has done) so they can 'follow' her to the new location. And finally, yes, he DID buy her time and attention - but that just means he's a typical guy. If a woman really likes you, chances are you won't have to spend a lot of money on her to just get her phone number. My wife is essentially the kind of woman you should avoid (assuming she were single!) because every sign points to a gold digger (which is what she does when she works - she wants your money. She's not there for her health, doh! )

[studbaker99]

hey poco -

 

another eye opener - thanks!!! I reckon i have enough of a self perception and introspection to realize that I have been looking for my mom in my relationships - I don't suppose I'm too off from 'normalcy' in that. But yes I see a tendency to mimic my (somewhat non successful) parent's relationship - mom is the demanding, critical bossy type/ father is laid back somewhat submissive, frustrated one. My mom goes to lengths to exemplify relationships she knows of where in some way or form the woman is always the leader or the boss behind the scenes, so it must be that all relationships are like this! Back to my relationships - I swear I don't look for that when I first glance a woman up! But somehow a more long term attraction seems to be driven by it. I personally think it sucks that this is the built in attraction code in me.

 

Damn it always goes back to your mom doesn't it???

 

I've heard of doclove and other love and seduction experts (mystery, strauss, etc) something I've been looking at to improve my skillset. I've read the books and watched the videos but since I have been involved in this relationship it was more a mental exercise than trying to live and ingrain it.

 

anyway i just wanted to respond and thank you - unfortunately I haven't made any hard decisions regarding this particular relationship, because (well amongst my personal weaknessses above) I'm still trying to figure out what's behind her behavior. Sure if she hasn't physically cheated yet, she's definitely cheating mentally or emotionally. But I'm still not convinced of its meaning, and wether or not I find it acceptable if I were to be in a very 'open relationship' kinda of deal. For instance, *cough*snooping at her email, I found out that previously she contacted some guys who were giving free massages - cuz for a while I was neglecting her. Why not just ask me for a massage? why go outside of the relationship? I just found out she just contacted this guy off CL who's willing to pay a girl to come to his house and flash her boobs. She was a stripper in a former life (about 12 years ago) and just recently she's confessed she used to be a flash queen - obviously as recently as before she's met me - but at the same time I've seen (no pun intended) flashes of it here and there. So in part, its not like she's looking for emotional solace of any kind. So now she's not only a cheating gf but also a prostitute kinda deal? disease considerations aside, maybe why I hold on is part for the emotional reasons, part for the mom issues, and part for wanting to be able to live that grittier lifestyle. Maybe in part I condone her behavior for wanting some variety in her choice of men because I take a hard look at myself and wish that for myself. She contacts whoever, whenever, and she's not ashamed to do it. I kinda admire that, in a weird way.

[PocoDiablo]

hey poco -

 

another eye opener - thanks!!! I reckon i have enough of a self perception and introspection to realize that I have been looking for my mom in my relationships - I don't suppose I'm too off from 'normalcy' in that. But yes I see a tendency to mimic my (somewhat non successful) parent's relationship - mom is the demanding, critical bossy type/ father is laid back somewhat submissive, frustrated one. My mom goes to lengths to exemplify relationships she knows of where in some way or form the woman is always the leader or the boss behind the scenes, so it must be that all relationships are like this!

I personally have noticed a lot of guys who have problems in relationships can also related to this experience. I personally think many guys have learned few "male" lessons, and are stuck in a child like role in relation to their women. It can be confusing and frustrating unless you learn it's okay to be an adult, to be making decisions, and understanding that you don't have to win a popularity contest to get people to like you. Stand up for yourself, be true to what you want, ask for what you want, and have standards.

 

Back to my relationships - I swear I don't look for that when I first glance a woman up! But somehow a more long term attraction seems to be driven by it. I personally think it sucks that this is the built in attraction code in me.

I think you can change this but it takes time.

 

Damn it always goes back to your mom doesn't it???

I never used to believe that but more and more I am starting to think so!

 

I've heard of doclove and other love and seduction experts (mystery, strauss, etc) something I've been looking at to improve my skillset. I've read the books and watched the videos but since I have been involved in this relationship it was more a mental exercise than trying to live and ingrain it.

Neil Straus and Mystery are guys who I would recommend you stay AWAY from. Mystery has the art of picking up women down to a science, but he has no concept of maintaining a quality long term relationship. Style (Straus) doesn't either. There are lots of so-called Gurus, and the majority of them only focus on the pick-up. Hey, that's great if you need to learn how to pick up women, but if you cannot maintain the relationship then I think you've failed.

 

To date I have not found ANY "guru" who has any long term advice.

 

I think David DeAngelo has the best in terms of keeping the relationship fresh, but none of them focus on the fact that a relationship is WORK. It's like a garden. You have to water, week, plant, pick, prune, etc. all the time or else it gets overgrown with weeds and dies. If you're not working on your relationship - and learning new "gardening" skills, you can never do more than grow weeds.

 

anyway i just wanted to respond and thank you - unfortunately I haven't made any hard decisions regarding this particular relationship, because (well amongst my personal weaknessses above) I'm still trying to figure out what's behind her behavior.

I'll spell it out to you: Her dissatisfaction in the relationship because you are not masculine enough emotionally and intellectually. You have to be a leader, a charmer, a flirt, a tease, a decision maker, a hard worker, dedicated, calm, polite, VERY MATURE, VERY CONFIDENT, exciting and fresh, NOT BORING, and every other good word that describes an adult. In short, you have to be great!

 

Sure if she hasn't physically cheated yet, she's definitely cheating mentally or emotionally. But I'm still not convinced of its meaning, and wether or not I find it acceptable if I were to be in a very 'open relationship' kinda of deal. For instance, *cough*snooping at her email, I found out that previously she contacted some guys who were giving free massages - cuz for a while I was neglecting her.

And you lied to her (by omission) by not bringing this up, didn't you? So you acted like the child, not able to tell "mom" that her behavior was not okay. I tell you what - if I found out my wife was secretly sending an email to some guy for a free massage, you can BET that I would bring it up right away. In fact I would print that thing out and tape it to the front door along with "We need to talk." written on it. You better believe I would be mad, but control my temper. I would tell her that this behavior is COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE and it stops now. I would not ask for an explanation. I would not accept excuses. I would not even get into the "Why were you snooping" conversation. I would tell her that I demand to be treated with respect, I expect full, honest, and open communication, and she was untrustworthy. I will always give someone one chance *IF* there was no clear line drawn beforehand.

 

Have you ever told her "You know, if I ever found out you were cheating on me, such as emailing guys or spending time alone with other men, that I would dump you on the spot?"

 

If you have, then you should dump her. Don't be a fool.

 

If you haven't you need to tape that thing up to the door, take a deep breath, and be an adult. Yes, she'll attack you. Yes, you've likely not lived up to the expectations of being a man. Yes, you can do better. But you have not cheated. That's the unforgivable in my book.

 

But, PAY ATTENTION, if you confront this, REMEMBER THAT IT ALL COMES BACK TO YOU FAILING TO BE A GREAT MAN. You WILL have to deal with this, and it will be BIG.

 

Why not just ask me for a massage?

Because you are supposed to offer one, make her want to ask for one, you are supposed to entice her and draw her into being more attracted to you than other guys. You do this by being a better partner, more mature, more exciting, more challenging emotionally and intellectually. LESS BORING.

 

why go outside of the relationship? I just found out she just contacted this guy off CL who's willing to pay a girl to come to his house and flash her boobs.

So she's making money doing this? Is this an agreement that you have? What about her safety? What is really going on here? Does she tell you "I am going to Bob Brown's house at 321 Green street, and I will be back no later than 9:00."? No? Then she's screwing him!

 

And you should put your foot down on that.

 

She was a stripper in a former life (about 12 years ago) and just recently she's confessed she used to be a flash queen - obviously as recently as before she's met me - but at the same time I've seen (no pun intended) flashes of it here and there. So in part, its not like she's looking for emotional solace of any kind. So now she's not only a cheating gf but also a prostitute kinda deal?

I know lots of strippers, and I know their game VERY well. Some are prostitutes, some are just dancers. What is your woman doing? I have no idea ... and neither do you! You need to communicate with her openly and honestly. I've dated a stripper before, and we had open communication. I told her what I was cool with and what I was not cool with. She never crossed the line in any way and we had no problems with that. But it was because we agreed on the rules ahead of time.

 

You mention an open relationship. Do you really have an open relationship? Can you AND do you pick up women and participate with them? Do you bring them home? An open relationship is NOT open if only one party is sleeping around. And ... do you WANT an open relationship?

 

I've been in so-called open relationships in the past (when I was much more weak) and looking back they were an excuse for me not being able to satisfy my woman. I allowed her to sleep around in hopes that she'd stay with me for being so "generous." Wow, what a complete moron I was. I don't do that any more. Now, granted, we all get horny, and if you're the type to want a little more, and she'll bring home a couple, or a guy one time and a woman the next time, and you have 100% full access to do whatever you want - and you can handle it - hey, then okay. I've seen guys in relationships where they cannot join in when a second woman comes home - that doesn't fly with me.

 

Limits. What are your limits? Are they clear, open, fair, followed, agreed upon? What are YOU getting out of this? It has to be equal or better than what she is getting. Everyone has to agree to the limits.

 

disease considerations aside, maybe why I hold on is part for the emotional reasons, part for the mom issues, and part for wanting to be able to live that grittier lifestyle.

You don't have to be with a woman who cheats to have threesomes or foursomes. You can still do that - if that floats your boat - with a woman who you are open and honest with.

 

Maybe in part I condone her behavior for wanting some variety in her choice of men because I take a hard look at myself and wish that for myself.

Well, that's a passive approach to getting what you want. What you should do is tell her "I enjoy threesomes, and I want to date a woman who does too. Do you enjoy that?" and then if she agrees, great. If not, great, dump her and find someone who does. Otherwise you are lying to her (because you want more than she may want, or maybe not in this case!) and are resentful because you are not getting what you want.

 

Hey, it's OKAY to get what you want. JUST ASK!

 

She contacts whoever, whenever, and she's not ashamed to do it. I kinda admire that, in a weird way.

Well, she is making decisions and going for it, regardless of you. She's acting like a leader. The problem is she is also cheating on you, so she's really not a good person in any way, shape, or form.

 

I'm going to strongly suggest you get that book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" because it will address your lying and passive behaviors. Go get it today. Read it. Read it twice. Then see what it's all about. I think it fits you to a "T", especially some of the sexual aspects about it.

[studbaker99]

Poco:

 

thanks for the response - you definitely come from a different reality than mine After writing the above response I actually felt like I was defending an undefensible position and if I were to read it as if someone else had written it, I'd be like 'what a loser'. Bottom line is she's doing something behind my back and I don't like it, and I have to do something about it.

 

I just wanted to write a quick reply. I'll comment more on it later.

[PocoDiablo]

Anytime. Yeah, I've been in your shoes before, so I do know what is going on. Your reality is not where I want to live any more. I'm glad to have provided a different point of view. I hope all goes well for you ... somehow I sense it will.