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Thread: (long) Wife loves me but is not in love with me

  1. #21
    Platinum Member Shadows Light's Avatar
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    Glad you got on the meds. It does take a few weeks to kick in. Give it time.

    What is she thinking? quit trying to psychoanalyze her.. you'll drive yourself over the edge with it. Why does anyone do what they do? Whats the motive? I asked my 5 year old today why she put her teddy bear in the fridge and I got an "I dunno.. cause it was there." Why do people buy things on impulse? I dunno.. but the marketing people love impulse shoppers, thats why the place stuff at the registars.

    I have a very good friend of mine asking himself the very same question you are this evening... "How could she have said she loved me... been happy.. and now she doesn't know if she ever really loved me."

    That my friend is like asking about the meaning of life. Sometimes the circles you'll go in around and around and still the question will never be answered.

    If you could devine the answers or know what the outcome would be...... look into the future.. would you be any happier? Not if the answer is not the one you are looking for. You so don't want to deal with... REJECTION. and who does? Its painful. It hurts.

    Do what you can and what is in your control. Deal with your own reality. Deal with those things that you can change.. YOU things. It does seem that you are well on the way to doing that. Focus on you... and less on the both of you and her. The both of you will work out... if its meant to work out. Get yourself feeling ok first. Feel good about you and about living in your own skin. The rest is icing on the cake.

  2. #22
    Bronze Member mike_chppr's Avatar
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    Your right, I am trying to psycoanalyze her. Obviously through the last week or so I have been extraordinarily attentive. Things that I haven't done in the past that I should have been doing all along.
    Kissing her before I leave in the mornings even if it is a peck on the forhead because she is asleep.
    Giving her a hug when she comes home at night or when I get home. Not a hellow hug a "Hugging till Relaxed" kind of hug read "Passionate Marriage, maybe chapter 5 to know what I mean.
    Texting her phone during the day to see how it is going.
    Complimenting her daily outfit.
    Talking to her (concienciously attempting to make eye contact the whole time)
    Lighting up when I see her come into the room (concienciously)
    Trying to spend my whole day with or without her without crossing my arms. (conciensiously, this is a terrible negative body language thing I've picked up)

    Weekends,
    cleaning the house
    doing the laundry
    fixing breakfast, or picking it up from a Restaurant and bringing it home to her still in bed

    So am I doing these things to influence her decision. Who am I kidding HECK YES. but I'm also doing these things because this is who I want to be, this is the kind of man I want to be for her or any other woman in my life should she leave me.

    I'm not sure about how much having "discussions" is helping, I know I'm having to face my own fears much more readily. She seems so deterministic. I want to rationalize the why, but today while reading my book I realized this is a defense mechanism of mine. Rationalization is the primative defense called "reaction formulation" My default is "passive-aggressiveness". I'm hoping to move into more mature functioning like sublimation and humor. I tried humor today when we were having a serious discussion. I told my wife that it was good she can laugh about some of these things and laughed with her a bit, fully knowing that my insides were torn to shreds.

    Tonight I didn't really want to have a "discussion" but in the silence and a few civilties later, she says "do you really want to have this discussion now?" I said yes!

    I started with. I'm concerned that you aren't wearing your wedding ring, I don't know if you forgot or if you aren't wearing it because you are distancing from me. I followed with I don't want to know the answer to that. I have my anxiety that I have to deal with. Right know if you answer that and it is the result I want then my anxiety is relieved. If it is not it is just increased with the addition of fear. So I think I'll stick with resolving my current level of anxiety.

    She did clear up one thing for me. I felt like before she was saying that she had never felt "in love" with me. She told me tonight that yes she did feel "in love" when we got married, she is just unsure at this point in her life if she can ever feel a sort of animalistic attraction for one another, she hasn't felt it in the prior 4 years why should she start feeling it now and can she even feel that way now. she feels like she is playing 75% wife and not giving me 100% if she doesn't feel like she can give 100% to me then she deserves to find someone that she can give 100% to. Also I deserve to have someone that can give me 100%. I agree I do deserve that, my hope is that someone is her.

    I'm catching myself trying to restate her position to her, I'm trying to figure out the whys in her head a sort of rationalizing, so in the end I can say that evil woman left me for XYZ reasons. Demonize her so I don't face my own inner deamons. Well raise the BS flag buddy, cause rationalization is one of them. I'm a math geek. 100% rational. I have hope that I am able to latch onto the principles of Attachment Theory and not reduce myself to be someone to the likes of Asperger's Syndrome which is very deterministic.

    I took a big step tonight in letting her know I felt rageful and loving at the same time, this puts me in a lot of turmoil inside and is tough, but at the same time I'm Thankful. If she had just walked out on me, I would have blamed it on Iraq and continued on the track of my same nurosis.

    Iraq had its part. The part it played is that.... We both had issues before I left, we were sort of playing off oneanother. When we split it was a wake up call to us both. I didn't see it until I was mostly through reading "7 Habits of Highly Sucessful People" reading that book put our marriage in perspective of each of us having our own independence but equally interdependent with one another. Then I started reading sex self help books. Anything except the Tantric idea, this fiddles too much with my Judeo Christian Ethic. Then I ran out of those books, "Trust me if it is in digital format I have read it" and I still ordered books to be sent out to me. Then I came home for leave and was incapable of putting the wealth of knowledge together to any use. Uncomfortable and pressured, we both had ideas of how the two weeks were going to be, but they didn't line up with either of our expectations, not that we didn't have a good time, we just were a bit unsatiated and still distanced as I was still going to have to go back for another 6 months. Getting back I ordered Marriage help books. If it was digital I read it, I think I read three by different authors which basically said the same thing just approached the issue with a different or "marriage therapist accepted" way to do things. The majority of which involves "Communication." Then came the 5 love languages, this gave me some perspective on how I wasn't connecting with her needs being very different from mine according to the tests at the end of the book that she and I took. Then came Passionate Marriage. This was the king of marriage books in my reading. It brought together so many aspects and issues and problems and really growing up "Differentiating" it allowed me to relook at the 7 habits book and piece together my dependence / independence / interdependence framework exclusively into the context of our marriage. I told her how great this book was for me and that I had grown so much from reading it. We decided to buy her a copy and we would read it together (me doing a reread) and send emails to discuss. We made it to chapter 3 and I don't think she read the book she just looked at my email comments. This book helped me out, it gave me some defintions for things like intimacy, differentiation, spirituality, understanding the concept of having and following a connection.

    On the phone while I was in Iraq, she felt as if I would have all these preconcieved notions about her. She wanted for when I came back to start afresh. Well with mental health getting in the way I was trying. not 4 days before she dropped the bomb I was telling this to the psychiatrist that I wasn't meeting her emotional needs. It was causing some difficulty, but nothing I didn't think would work out. 4 days later Wha BAMM.

    Now I am very angry that she has only given us less than 60 days to reconnect. This seems so hypocritical of her after asking that I drop my preconceptions of her as being nonsexual. In fact she is very sexual, she feels like there should always be this animalistic attraction that you just can't keep your hands off of one another. She is not sure that she can get this from me and she is not sure that she can ever again feel this way for me. She doesn't word it exactly that way and don't let my summary fool you. it is way more complicated than that. I'm tempted not to write what she says at all as it feeds my rationalization side.

    Switch gears
    This morning She let me scoot next to her under the covers and give her a hug. I felt so loved. I did. she stroked my back as I settled in in a nonsexual kind of way. I felt really loved. Before she left for work I kind of akwardly told her that I felt loved this morning and a sort of thanking her for that. Well you can see that she was purturbed by this, so I spent the entire evening stewing over weather I felt loved or just comforted. I had settled in on comforted, but when discussing with her tonight, I took a stand for myself, I am not going to let her reaction determine my feelings. I felt loved goshdarnit. It is possible for one person to feel it and not the other.

    She fears that if she does touch me as in like a hug or a kiss that I'm reading into it. She doesn't want to trail me along. Like now she won't change her clothes in front of me. I guess if you are going to leave someone you have to distance yourself and that is natural on her part. It hurts nonetheless. I also would grab her butt or tickle her right now if I felt it appropriate and felt like she really wanted to be touched by me, but I think she would feel acosted and angry if I did those things so I don't but I totally want to.

    I have a feel for her point of view. I've neglected her the 4 years prior to going to Iraq even drastically distancing myself prior to leaving. She is angry at herself for putting up with it. Doesn't know if she can handle some of my hangups that she knew were present when we got married. Is fully aware that I am changing and growing up to be a "MAN" but she wants more out of life, "life is too short" as she puts it. Yep less than 60 days! less than 60 days to decide she can't deal! Ohhh I'm burned up. I want to put a big log in the backyard like 24 inches in diameter. Just go out here and hack off a 1 foot section with an axe. That is a good thing. that defense mecanism is Sublimation and is a part of Mature functioning.

    What are you going to do?

    I don't know, keep reading, keep cleaning, keep praying? I cannot let anxiety and fear get the best of me. I just can't!

  3. #23
    Silver Member EmotionalCreature's Avatar
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    My wife said exactly the same thing.
    Last edited by EmotionalCreature; 11-10-2006 at 03:58 AM.

  4. #24
    Bronze Member mike_chppr's Avatar
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    Blue Sea,

    I won't say things are going any better for me. In fact I have my own concocted intricate hell. But I will say this. Seeing a therapist has helped. I'm really a go getter, Once I saw the therapist, I had a total freakish anxiety attack. I had to rediscover myself. But here is the thing. One part of me realized that I needed to change me for either my wife or for the next woman that comes into my life and chooses to spend the rest of her life with me. I'm not going to be an instantaneously different person overnight, and trying to change yourself and shove it in her face "look at me I've changed" is going to piss her off. We have had more talks discussions and arguments since the last time I've posted. She is angry with me that I didn't "Man-Up" and give her an ultimatum. This is totally what she expected me to do. But I didn't. she feels like I've wallowed into my own world and kind of wusssed out.

    She thinks that I've latched onto the idea that if I don't change she will leave me. She has said this and truth be told, she could leave me just to leave me. not because of the way I act or have treated her, just because that is the way she is. People do things for their own reasons. Ask any parent who has been told by their child that they are gay or lesbian or want to go through gender reassignment. Just as they have to accept that person because they love them doesn't mean the best thing at that point is abandonment. I can't help myself right now doing things for her. Tea in the morning, making the bed, doing the laundry, putting gas in her car. But I was angry when she thought I was trying to change for her. She has reiterated that I have decided that she is leaving me. She doesn't know what she wants. and I'm preparing for the worst case scenario, when in fact that isn't what is going on in her head. If I try to explain what is going on in her head I would end up rationalizing it as in she is leaving me for XYZ reason.

    Counseling is helping, most insurances cover it to some extent, and it is worth it to use a professional to help rediscover yourself. I've learned so much about who I am. at first I think I partly did it because my wife was maybe leaving me, but really I'm doing it because I'm in emotional turmoil and I have to become a better person for me. People in your life come and go. Your spouse I think you always hope is there for you, but it is a choice and at any time they can walk away from that choice. Realizing that is a big part of the battle.

    Our plan of action right now, is to continue individual counseling. I'm working on the concepts of Attachment Theory and Trauma Healing. I've changed my outlook on life significantly in literally the last few days. With her she is going to counseling. At first I wanted to grill her on all that she was discussing to see where she was at and prepare myself for the inevitable I'm leaving. Now I'm more stable. She's my wife I can still swat her butt as she passes by and work out with her. But right now. I have to work extra diligently to give her her space. She has been going out with guys that are totally not her type. Kind of playing the wingman woman to help get them hooked up. It makes me jealous, but at least I know about it.

    From individual counseling we will go one of two routes.
    I'll probably continue individual counseling. But the both of us need to do either a couples based marriage counseling or a couples based disolution counseling. Something to kind of bang the cobwebs out and discover ourselves and how we interacted together that made things not work. There could and are things about her that are just as detrimental to what is going on in your relationship as there are in yours. We tend to get married to people who have the same levels of differentiation. Then we get into an apparent noncommunicative gridlock. It isn't that we have nothing to talk about, it is more that we already know the response. So we just don't push buttons. We get to where we deny exposing who we really are and stop negotiating the gives and takes of a relationship. From there one reaches a boiling point and changes leaves or changes and works it out or doesn't change and leaves. Marriage counseling kind of helps that issue along. and Dissolution counseling kind of helps so that you don't beat yourself up so bad and don't regress in life, but move forward and become a better person despite all that has happened. I know we both don't want the alternative.

    I'm struggling right now with the issue of Sex. We both, are available for each other. I mean what if she wants to F***. Do I conceed. Or do I do the no contact thing and sort of be like I'm not going to have that kind of contact until I feel that we are both in love with one another. I'll touch you in any kind of way, but we are not having sex until this thing starts to blow in the other direction. or is this just passive aggressive.

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  6. #25
    Bronze Member mike_chppr's Avatar
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    Where do I go now?

    OK, the no sex thing that I mentioned last night. I've discovered in myself that that is just more of a way to cope. kind of a make her want me so badly by not giving of myself.... to what is the end result. When we do my anxiety will be so far up the chain that everything will be akward and there will be so much pressure on that one moment.

    So I cracked. last night I told her that I had been thinking about some of the things that I had said and wanted to recant. I told her that if and/or when she was sexually available, I am available as well. She affirmed that she was OK. I don't want to read too much into it. It is what it is.

    It is really tough to see your partner squirm away when you initiate touch. I've been reading this book on Attachment Theory and young childrent and how ambivalent and avoident children carry their attachment issues later on into life. I know that the self-fulfilled prophecy becomes a lot of it. We push others away to affirm our "avoident" maps. Or we seek and then deny others as a way to affirm our "ambivalent" maps. based on our early lives we have constructed these maps. There is also a "securely attached" map, but I know I have never had that in my whole life.

    I have to believe that the chemisty of love exists. That it is possible for me to be and feel in love. I'm spending the weekend at my brothers house with my wife and my brother have sit down and talked about our views and how our childhood has affected who we have turned out to be. I've shown him the website for attachements on adult relationships and also the one on emotional trauma

    link removed

    link removed
    Except for substance abuse you can pretty much nail down the whole gammit of symptoms of prior emotional trauma. There is also a link for an adult trauma history questionaire. I've stewed over hours writing in every remote memory that could have affected me that I can recall. These are the ones I can remember, I'm fully aware that some of the memories are very very repressed as my brother remembers some that I don't and he is younger than me.
    here is the link to the questionaire.

    link removed

    My mind has been in tons of turmoil the last few weeks. I've reevaluated many many things about my life and the patterns that I've developed.

    For example. I don't trust anyone. I sort of do, but I never really really trust anyone. So how do I confirm the map of mistrust. I lie. I become a fantastic liar. Everything about how I display my life becomes a lie to my family, my loved ones, my friends and coworkers. Then when I get called out on it and ostracized it reafirms my "avoidant/ambivalent" attachment behaviors and also further affirms that I cannot trust anyone, because they will abandon/ostracize me. I can live life on my own. I am capable and I don't need anyone else, my subconscious screams, but my conscious is dealing with all the repercussions and numbing the actual feeling so I become all the more stoic.

    Once I edit the personal trauma survey for appropriate content I'll post it here so that others can see how I'm dealing with my wife, and still staying around to give her the space and opportunity to feel in love with me. I've shut her out so many times over the last 5 years. I know it is going to be a tough transition for both her and me, and it will either happen "magically" or it won't. I want to feel. I don't want to be angry. I want to feel joy I want to feel love, I want to feel angy, I want to feel remorse. I don't want to repress myself anymore and be as others may see as "stoic."

    The next crazy thing was while looking at my brothers pictures of us that he has collected. you see a total paradigm shift in our facial expressions from being happy little children to almost ghostlike and morbid photo expressions. I've been struggling with the idea that I have never been happy. but after seeing those photos I know that there is a repressed little happy me that I want to let out. and part of that means tearing down emotional walls of repression and delusion. It might not happen overnight, but I want to feel the full range of emotions. and express them in healthy ways like humor and sublimation. not passive aggressiveness and acting out.

    I know it is a lot for my wife to finally start to hear and become knowlegable about what really happened to my brother and I when we were younger. I don't want to use this to change her feelings towards me. To play the victim where she stays around to take care of my tormented soul as to not damage my psyche any more than has already been done. I want to feel the chemistry... to feel in love. I know now that it isn't a choice and that the human spirt is resiliant and capable. I want so badly to fall in love with my wife. But if it is not her then I want so badly to fall in love with another to truly experience the chemistry of being "IN LOVE"
    Last edited by mike_chppr; 11-12-2006 at 11:50 AM. Reason: problem with link

  7. #26
    Bronze Member mike_chppr's Avatar
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    Got to get it off my chest

    Well it seems that everything is boiling down to TRUST. I've been a compulsive liar my whole life. Today, I felt trapped into another one. She was feeling sick and I asked if she wanted me to stay in the room. or go out and be social since we are visiting my brother. Well, I went out and typed the above post. When I got back from going out with my brother and his wife, she asked me why I didn't stay in the room. and what I was working on. I told her I need to braindump in my journal. Then I further explained that it was on a website where I didn't want her to see what I was writing. She immediately felt that she had been lied to and that I was just continuing the violation of her trust. She is unsure if she can ever trust me. that it is so much extra energy on her part to keep me accountable and that shouldn't be her baggage.

    She further told me that she is leaning towards the "NO" side of getting back together. I said some stupid things about wanting this to pass and waiting it out. Working together it sounded kind of pathetic. I was hurt and crying, wiped myself off and we went out to eat. I got really horny and wanted to have my hands all over her. I sort of did and got a back off. I wispered in her ear that I wanted to make love to her tonight. Once we were seated I went to the restroom and sent her a text message on her phone that sounded something like this.

    Hey sexy,

    I wanted to let you know two things.
    I really want to make love to you / no intercourse necessary
    &
    I really want you to lay over my lap so I can spank you.

    I will not do any of these things to an unwilling participant and she knows I would not willingly hurt her.
    I adore her
    Passionate Intentions, Your husband.

    Well I got it off my chest. She got the message about an hour later after we finished eating. On the drive back to the house my anxiety has risin about 900% i can feel the fear eating me alive. Can I really do this. Make love to her. I want so badly to rid myself of this sexual aggression. To just have my hands all over her.

    Spanking, well we have never done that before. and like I said I want to get out some of my aggression. I think I owe her four open handed swats accross those cheeks of hers. Because she has really broken my heart 4 times in the last couple of weeks. Oh and I want to leave a red mark. But like I said only to the willing. And of course turn about is fair play.

    Making love to her. She has said that all my past advances are a way to coax her into sex. Should I do ground rules of no intercourse. undies and panties stay on. Just touch her and feel her and really try to connect really try to feel her. What if she totally wants it at that point. Then it is like I tricked her by saying no intercourse and we end up having sex. Ground rules could be that we can make love, but if she wants sex she has to reinitiate in the morning or sometime tonight after we have gone to sleep.

    I'm really cautious of tricking her into doing something she doesn't want to do. My anxiety is killing me.

    Well she has seemed indifferent to the response. I think she has read it a few times. she seems to still kind of connect and kind of withdraw, kind of ambivalent. When we got back to the house we had some small talk about leaving to go home tomorrow. She said she needed to go on a walk. I asked if she wanted a visitor (i.e. myself) and she said she needed some alone time to think. OK make my anxiety 1200% So I started typing this when she was getting ready to go on her walk. She asked if I was sending emails and I told her I was posting to the webboard and that there is a community of others in simliary situations. I told her I was posting everything with no names or specific identifying information. She offered a hug before she left and then she is now thinking on her walk while she blows off steam. When she comes back I have no idea what state of mind she will be in.

    God help us that we do the right thing. I'm terrified of screwing up right now. but in the end it is not my decision. I'm staying because I believe we can work this out and this is the only instance in my life where I have made a promise before GOD. I intend on keeping it. I believe and have faith that our marriage can mend and heal and I think she feels like me bringing God into the picture is testing her faith. She believes God will forgive her no matter what she does.

    Gridlock resumes again.

    Any comforting words or simliar situations or any feedback from anyone would be appreciated.

    Thanks,

    Mike_chppr

  8. #27
    Bronze Member mike_chppr's Avatar
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    OK, well I blew everything up. Mushroom cloud still has stuff falling. We crawled into bed and I asked for a kiss and a hug. She coldly complied, so I knew she wasn't going to take me up on my offer. Inside my anxiety was fuming. I was boiling hot. I'd never felt my temperature rise like that and the tingles over the back of my shoulders and the hole in my stomach spread all through my chest. I had taken my sleeping pills once I knew she wasn't interested, but I couldn't shut my mind down. I was trying to breath deeply and calmly. And then I had a yes no question. It started pounding louder and louder in my head.

    Finally I blurted it out. Babe I have a yes / no question for you? She asked what it is and I asked her if she minded if I got off. She said sure. and so that is just what I did. So for the next 15 to 20 minutes I pleasured myself. After about 10 she put on her ipod so that she couldn't hear me. I could tell she was irritated, but I was totally into my pleasure. Somehow I had decided that I would clutch her at the moment of climax. With all her blocking actions hindsite 20/20 this was a bad idea. Well I did I had a most powerful stress relieving shut my mind down for the night orgasm.

    Upon clutching her she sprang out of bed and went to the bathroom for about 5 or 10 minutes. She came back in and asked abruptly if I needed anything, I had already cleaned myself up. I said no and she crawled back into bed. After my pills wore off and I woke up I leaned over to touch her. I got the "uugh" with a violent type of withdrawal.

    She is furious. I so want her to express what she is feeling. In some ways I want her to lash out at me. I'm getting to the point where I don't want to deal. I want to walk away. That this agony that we are putting each other through isn't worth it. That we won't get through it and that our lives won't be better in the end.

    She is shutting me out and I can totally see where todays flight home will be miserable and isolated. When we get home she is going to go on a business trip, so I won't see her for the next couple of days.

    Did I hurt her. I asked for her permission, and she said yes. this just sucks. It really really sucks. Or should I let her deal with her own emotions and feelings and not get involved while she goes through her fury. I do love her very very much and I don't want her to be in any more turmoil than she already is. I also have my own things to deal with like managing anger and anxiety and depression and lying and trusting and loving. Why does all this have to be so miserable.

  9. #28
    Bronze Member mike_chppr's Avatar
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    OK,

    Now I'm beating myself up. I realize now that I totally violated her. Not that I raped my wife, but I went into her personal space when she was closing me out. She must feel disgusted with me. She has told me that she is unsure if she will be able to sleep in the same bed with me. It sucks it is killing me. I feel similar and maybe I should go talk to a divorce lawyer. The hurt and anguish that I have caused her. She asked what i was fuming about and I said I was beating myself up and I really couldn't talk to her about it. I have done something so haneous.

    OK this may freak some people out, but this morning I wanted some relief. I usually get this by "getting off" I couldn't do it. My normal things that send me over the edge wouldn't work. So I opted to sublimate. I used a helathy natural defense mechanism. I felt all the rage for my wife and I imagined raping her I finally went over the top and then laid in the shower and cried in anguish. I say again I would not do this to my wife, I only imagined it. I tried to use a healty defense mechanism and the emotions I felt were near unbearable. I want to feel. If I can't feel the horrible stuff how can I feel the good stuff. She is a little social with me this morning, but she is very very disgusted. She is really putting on a show since we are at my brothers. I can only imagine what things will be like when we get into the airport by ourselves. I almost booked seats in different areas of the plane, but she is afraid of flying so I kept us together.

    I feel so disgusted with myself. I am at a point that I have told her that I am sorry, and I can only ask for her forgiveness. She does not have to give it to me and I have to be OK with that. She said that she can forgive me on her own time, and even if she does forgive me, can I forgive myself. I am truly sorry. I'm trying to discover what "sorry" FEELS like. It is something you say, but how do you feel it. Right now I feel anguish and disgust, is this sorry, or is sorry a different feeling.

    In my own hell.

  10. 11-13-2006, 12:52 PM

  11. #29
    Bronze Member mike_chppr's Avatar
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    Well we are not working in counseling together. We are working individually. She has to decide if she wants to work on the marriage before a marriage counselor will take us. As long as her tendency is no or yes/no there is no point in seeing a counselor together. Although I think it may help us discuss with one another what is going on inside. I think I keep fumbling over myself.

    I'm also posting at
    lying has become a fabric of my personality

    I'm getting ready to board a plane so I'll be offline for a few hours

  12. #30
    Bronze Member mike_chppr's Avatar
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    So where am I at now that I have been honest. I'm 97% sure I'm getting left. She has told her dad which is a huge step for her. I think by confessing my sins that this has given her enough ammo and repulsive distance to do it. To make me out to be the bad guy. I cannot stop crying. This pain is unbelievable.

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