Guys, are you attracted to a girl who moves the first move?

[Batya33]

Somebloke, I believe she tried to ask him already to step up to the plate.

 

When a man (or woman-man!) really cares for the woman he is dating putting your intentions out there directly and concisely without drama or "we need to talk!!" or "I am feeling so confused!!" will be well received. It shows that you are quietly assertive, that you don't want to play on someone's emotions or get too emotional (particularly if the answer is no you want to keep some of your dignity), and it doesn't need to be cold at all - you can have a warm tone when you deliver the concise message.

 

To me, if you want to know someone's intentions, it's fine to be cut and dry about it - particularly if you've been dating awhile - show the other person you take care of yourself and you mean business so you are not going to do what we women too often do and apologize "I'm sorry to have to bring this up" or "I know you're not going to want to have a talk about this because we're having fun, but. . . " Just say it - get it out there with little ceremony or drama and see what happens.

 

A person who is truly into you will appreciate it. It is how my boyfriend did it. We went on three platonic "non-dates" over a 4 week period and then he sat me down and said "What do you think about us starting to date again" (we dated many years ago). We talked some and he said "well we don't have to decide right now, I will be away next weekend but two weeks from today we will get together, ok?"

 

I respected his directness and conciseness - and it was romantic in the meaning behind it - but I respected that he wanted to make his intentions known and find out what I was thinking without beating around the bush or buttering me up.

 

 

I've had that situation more than once - on both sides - and it makes me stand up and take notice - in a good way.

 

One more example - I had two dates with a man I had known for awhile and knew he had a reputation of having flings. On date three I said simply "I want you to know that flings are not my style and they are not my style with you." That's it, cut and dried. The reaction was very positive and respectful.

 

Just wanted to give background to why I said what I did.

[StillClimbing]

Sounds to me like the OP wants to try for a relationship out of this.

 

Also sounds to me that her crush is taking advantage of the situation he has. He's basically has his cake and is eating it too. He gets her companionship, intimacy (although I think it is crazy that you are having sex except for orgasm...what is the point of that?) and totally thwarts her attempts at discussing a relationship. She has tried to bring up dating more formally and he just brushed it off ("we're here right now..."). In my mid-20s I had that experience (as did many of my girlfriends) and it is a result of the girls settling for what the guy is giving. If you truly are not satisfied with the current status of your situation (i.e., friends with benefits), then you need to make a change.

 

To be honest, I don't think he sounds like he is looking for a relationship. That is just my opinion based on the guys I've dated who have exhibited the same behavior patterns as the guy described above.

 

I also agree with Batya. I think she should be as direct as possible about what she wants. Somebloke's advice to tell him it's ok to ask her out for once is not effective. It sounds whiney and weak. Even if being direct DOES make him run, she is better off. She has way more important things to worry about (getting into med school, for one) than some guy who doesn't care to consider her wants.

[Daddy Bear]

Batya33, I find quite a lot to agree with in your most recent post. Limiting drama, being direct, keeping it simple and concise... all very intuitive notions. However, I think that my suggestion, to wit:

 

"You know, you're welcome to ask ME out once in a while, too,"

 

embodies those virtues to a greater extent than the following:

 

I am not comfortable just hanging out and hooking up. If you want to be in a relationship with me -- one on one - - then that's fine. If that's true I need to see you step up to the plate too. I seem to be the one making all the plans to get together and I am uncomfortable with that role. If you don't want to be exclusive for now that's fine, but then I can't keep sleeping over and hooking up because I am getting too attached if that's all this is. No pressure, but if you are interested in dating me, non-exclusively, give me some advance notice and if I am available we can get together.

 

Anyone with a modicum of listening ability will understand the intent behind the straightforward tack in my suggested words. Your dispassionate alternative, with repeated reference to discomfort, an attitude of indifference toward maintainng the relationship, and a thinly-weiled ultimatum, runs the risk of being seen as negative and confrontational, in my estimation.

 

I haven't had to resort to verbose, legalistic negotiations with a love partner in order to keep things on track (though I grant that I often employ such tactics in written communications such as this one). A 23-year marriage speaks to the fact that I have been at least moderately successful with my approach.

[StillClimbing]

Bloke-

The bottom line is that this dude (OP's crush) is not going to want to be her boyfriend. You approach is good for someone who is already engaged in the situation, but not for someone who is just stringing her along. He will just brush off that one and keep stringing her a long.

She needs the experience right now of standing up for herself and telling him exactly what she expects. Then she needs to follow through by being friendly but not sleeping with him anymore.

[Daddy Bear]

I understand, but I'm not convinced that he doesn't want to be her boyfriend. In his mind, maybe he already is. If, on the other hand, he's ambivalent about a relationship, I fear that Batya's approach would put the final nail in the coffin.

[StillClimbing]

I can see your concern about the exact verbage, but I'm sure OP will have her own version of Batya's advice on delivery.

 

As a woman in her later 20s who's had some disappointing dating experiences (after having been in a long an wonderful relationship where her feelings were always preserved), I feel it is important to learn to be assertive. I let a lot of things I didn't like just go because I was worried the guy would leave.

 

In retrospect, I feel that I had more to do with my lack of self-worth than with caring about the guy! Now, having finally learned to ask for what I want (in a dipomatic and friendly way, of course), I realized that 4 out of 5 guys have always ended wanting to continue anyways. And the one who didn't was not a good match anyways. The usual pattern would be that I would call him to meet, tell him I need x, y, z and that I wouldn't be interested in a relationship otherwise. Most became defensive at first, but I stuck to my guns. Within a week or two (one took 2 months), each came back and said they realized what I had to offer and wanted to be in my life. Interestingly, after I said what I wanted to the guy, I usually soon realized that I didn't really like him that much anyways. The whole process was really informative.

 

 

Now my goal was never to end up without the guys, it usually just worked out that if someone wasn't giving me what I needed voluntarily, we simply did not have that right connection.

 

But that's just my experience.

 

But back to the original thread topic:

 

I don't think guys have a problem with girls making the first move. I did that with my boyfriend of 5 years. I asked him to a party and he declined (he had a big deadline). I was bummed but a month later he came by and told me he couldn't stop thinking about me. So I had simply planted the seed of interest.

[Daddy Bear]

I can see your concern about the exact verbage, but I'm sure OP will have her own version of Batya's advice on delivery.

I had a similar thought as I was eating breakfast a little while ago. Batya and I have wildly different ideas about how to talk to a partner, but we are advocating essentially the same course of action here. If either or both suggestions resonate with the OP, she needs only to tailor our advice with situationally appropriate words of her own in order to put it into practice.

[Batya33]

I understand, but I'm not convinced that he doesn't want to be her boyfriend. In his mind, maybe he already is. If, on the other hand, he's ambivalent about a relationship, I fear that Batya's approach would put the final nail in the coffin.

 

Well, it's all typing - without tone or context perhaps what I wrote comes accross as nail in the coffin. I would never make demands on a man or pressure him, I would simply tell him when I am no longer comfortable leaving things casual.

 

The truth is it's rarely been the case that a man who is serious about me would need me to raise the issue - typically the man lays his cards out on the table early on in a very direct, concise way. The one time I had to do that in the last 15 years, he appreciated it and we ended up being serious for almost 5 months. The time before that, we were 23 and I simply told him, after 5 months of casual dating that I wasn't comfortable continuing much longer casually. He said he understood and a few weeks later, after I came back from a club med vacation, he said he realized he had fallen for me and wanted to get serious. We dated on and off for a few years.

 

Three years ago I received an e-mail from a man I had dated for about two months two years earlier, with me deciding to end it. We had kept in casual touch, seen each other as friends a few times. The e-mail said that he wanted to know if I would be interested in dating him exclusively, with the purpose of seeing if, 6 months to a year down the road, we should get engaged and married. I thought that e-mail rocked. Now, he was probably too timid, knowing him, to ask me in person but I understood that. I liked that he was clear, he stepped up to the plate, and in a concise way - no wishy washy behavior, etc. I wish more people were like that.

[Daddy Bear]

True, Batya; the ameliorating nuances of speech which could blunt what I see as harshness in your proposal to the OP are not present in its written form. Perhaps you should have taken that into account when you gave her the suggestion, to ensure that she didn't get out of it what I did.

 

In any case, there is more in that than a lamentation of discomfort; there is, as I said, a tone of indifference in spots, and a 'fish or cut bait' implication--an ultimatum, simply put--and I think such things should be reserved for a more desperate situation, when all gentler attempts like the one I espoused are exhausted.

 

I reiterate that we don't know what's really going on in this guy's mind. To use a golf metaphor as illustration, it's not wise to bring out a 2-iron where a putter would serve.

[Batya33]

Thanks again for your subtle critique of my approach. I do not give ultimatums. I tell the person when I am not comfortable with a situation, I tell the person why that is, I ask the person what his intentions are. On an early date that is general intentions - i want to know generally what his goals are - if his general goals are not marriage and family, we probably shouldn't continue dating (most of the men I have dated bring up their general goals on the first or second date, so I don't usually ask or have to).

 

I never say "unless you agree we can't be together" or anything of the sort. I never try to get the man to change his mind - no need to have someone like that in my life. I simply have said "we've been dating two months, and I know you want to keep your options open. That is fine for now but it won't be fine forever as you know from what we've talked about before. If we're not on the same page on that, that's cool, but then we may at some point need to go our separate ways."

 

I've only had to say something like that twice in the last 15 years. The men I date typically make their intentions clear early on and similar to what I've written above. Never felt like it was an ultimatum or too strong - I found it an honest expression of their goals and intentions and I appreciated knowing where I stood.

 

I do the same when it comes to sex - the first time we are going to be alone at someone's place I make it clear in a concise, matter of fact way (unless he asked me my views earlier on) that I don't have sex with someone outside of an exclusive committed relationship and that I'm usually not comfortable enough to have sex until I've known the person at least a few months.

I don't want mixed signals, confusion, etc. It's always turned out really well - the man appreciates me being straight with him, respects the way I say it. Very few have run the other way over the last 20 years - those who have I was glad to see them go so I didn't invest more time or waste their time.

 

Again, thanks for your critique. I think my advice is sound to the OP so I respectfully decline your invitation to change it.

[StillClimbing]

I'm just curious to see if she (OP) followed through, and if so...what happened?

My bet is that he will go away for a while, and then call her in a few weeks and want to get back together. Or he will find a new fwb!

[DN]

Moderator Note: Please stay on topic.

[ghost69]

it's possible he wants to hook up, but doesn't want the seriousness.