No closure/ NC/ how long for his call?

[moonbeam111]

Moonbeam111 what did you mean by this "You know, with Jewish men it's almost like a pregnancy test - 95% accurate!" - what is like a pregnancy test??

 

Oh, if they bring you to their family gatherings, holidays, etc... they are looking for an approval from the family. Again, I don't want to generalize, but it seems like a trait for some family-oriented Jewish men.

[moonbeam111]

His actions while we're together are not consistent with his words. Even the night we broke up - 2 hours before he was hugging and kissing me and telling me I was the way to his hearT - make sensE? Even if he didn't say he changed his mind about me, it is not nice or a quality person to act so inconsistently. He never let go of em the whole night Saturday night and spoke of spending x-mas w/ me if I didn't go home. If you saw us on the street, you'd say to your friend "that guy looks so in love with that girl" - no doubt. I will ask about his intentions.

 

Absolutely! Ask, but in a non-confrontational way. Like "I wonder if you can help me understand where we are at now in terms of our relationship". And I would not bring up the past and breakup. State the facts: intimacy, plans for Christmas, and dates... what does it mean for him?

[Batya33]

Oh, if they bring you to their family gatherings, holidays, etc... they are looking for an approval from the family. Again, I don't want to generalize, but it seems like a trait for some family-oriented Jewish men.

 

I am Jewish and I only date Jewish men - and I live in a heavily Jewish area and have for many years. I have been introduced to "the family" when to that particular man it didn't mean anything serious.

[jamiek]

Thanks to both of you - Moonbeam and batya. I'm struggling with the right words to say. I don't want to bring up the past (the break-up) but somehow want to references his comment at lunch about the long-term potential (lasck there of). I feel like I need to reference it to know where he stands with that. Asking what do these things mean to you is a good question (although I am scared that even that will make him feel scared/pressured). I guess I'm afraid to say these things now b/c he just abandoned me out of nowhere the last time I brought things up. He's passive-aggressive (he admits) and he admits he has a problem w/ communication and confrontation. I don't mean to sound niave (I'm 35 yrs old) but why if someone didn't see you as long term would they be so affectionate (basically acting like a bf) and seem so happy w/ you and into you if there was no possibility of a future?? I guess it is possible but seems so gross and weird. FYI: His mom and he haven't talked for 3 months really (she was/is super controling leading to his passive-aggressive stuff) - he is close w/ his sister (he had me meet her kids for two days straight over a weekend while she was away but not her). I wondered if he resented me turning down his initial invite to meet the sister and didn't invite again as a passive-aggressive response. I'm confused. I appreciate all of your feedback.

[moonbeam111]

Batya, I did say for "SOME Jewish men"...

 

Jamie, I met many men who exhibited this very behavior with mixed messages. It is possible to be affectionate one night and distant again next morning. It is possible to talk about the future and break up 5 minutes after the realization of words said sank in.

 

Why don't you go with Scout's advice. What if you have three more dates before you ask about his decision about you not being the one. Just three more dates. Try not to be obssessed about his mixed signals. Take a deep breath and date. If you don't feel that being intimate is what you want, say it directly.

[jamiek]

Moonbeam, thanks!! I know I know, I keep thinking I should just give it a bit more time BUT if I do, I feel like I shouldn't do the over-night thing w/ him (to avoid feeling so upset after when it takes time to hear from him or when I start remembering what he said). The problem is, how do I stop that now w/o it turning into a "talk"? What do u think of this? Am I being disrespectful to myself and fololish/easy in front of him to continue being intimate after what he said? This is another area of confusion. Thanks for the input and concern!

[moonbeam111]

Just end the date in the public place. Go back to your car and say Good Night. No heavy explanation is required. If he initiates "the talk" about not being sexual, you may bring the whole issue of the commitment then. I don't think that you have been foolish or degraded yourself in any way. You have the right to be sexual and you have the right to say no when you don't think it's a good idea.

[jamiek]

Thanks! Unfortunately we always drive together (we live 11 blocks apart and it's Los Angeles and traffic is a nightmare!). He usually picks me up (which I like). I liked sleeping next to him a lot as well. Perhaps I can just say soemthign like "I just feel like taking it easy with the physical thing right now" - he's welcome to sleep over if he feels like just sleeping together and I can say that too. It woudl be nice and nice to hear him agree to that (which I think he would). Thanks for the advice. Somehow the issue between us might bring itself up in the midst of date or conversation. I'll se how long I can feel this way and hold out.

[jamiek]

Oh and also - sometimes (especially if it is a week night) we'll just pick up dinner and hang in his place and watch a movie or soemthing. Most likely I'll have to say somethign about the sex thing to avoid it.

[moonbeam111]

You may want to rethink the whole idea of dates and suggest something different - for instance, a walk in a park not far from your place... This is a tough case because you guys have an established routine that ends in bed.

[jamiek]

well just this last tiem we ended up in bed (the time before, I left his palce and drove home and it had been a month before that that I saw him). I'll figure it out and keep you guys posted. Thanks again.

[Scout]

Jamie, I have been thinking more about your situation, and I don't want to give the impression I am overlooking your own needs.

 

Do you really feel you're being used sexually? Or, if that's a bit drastic, do you feel uncomfortable having sex with David while there is no established commitment in place? Either way, don't continue to have sex!

 

Do you think it would be a good idea to say to him something like, "Hey, I've really enjoyed our time together of late, including the physical part. But regarding the latter, I'm not entirely comfortable with it. We jumped very fast back into it without any discussions of where we're taking things."

 

And then I wonder what his response would be? It might lead the way to a non-pressured conversation, I don't know.

 

Moonbeam, since you're the dueling voice here... are your thoughts on how she should get her needs met here? Or at the very least, her questions answered.

[jamiek]

Hi Scout, thank you for thinking about my situation. I like what you suggested I say. I might do that. I don't know that I feel "used" sexually - I don't think that David is only seeing me for sex (although I think he really likes it w/ me - he said it's the best he's ever had which is nice but again worries me a bit about what's going on). Him leaving Sunday morning and ssaying last night and this morning were great was nice but also sounds focused on sexual. Again, when I hear from him this week will say somethign to me. I don't love him getting out of my bed Sunday morning and then not hearing from him for a long time. Honestly, I just don't know what I think. If you asked me when I was with him, I'd say "I know he really likes/cares about me and isn't using me", it's just after that he's on match and not calling (yet). I don't think he's really dating on match. He said that at lunch to me and this past weekend he had dinner at his sister's fri and was w/ me Saturday. Anyway ..... I may try to wait another dat or two if I can to somehow tactfully approach the subjest of what's going on. It's hard. The hardest part is finding the words and h onestly, I'm a prety straightforward person (he would attest to that) but once someone abandons you when you begin a relationship discussion it's scary to do it again. I just have to find the words and the right time. What you suggested was good - I'm not sure we should be having sex under the current circumstances. I don't want him to take it as a control tactic or manipulation to get back into an exclusive relationship. I need to figure it out. I wish this guy didn't ahve such a problem and fear of communicating (which he also admitted to at lunch that day). It is hard and isn't exactly a good quality in someone to have a healthy relationship with. I guess we'll see how I find the way to deal w/ this. THANK YOU very much - let me knwo fo any thoughts. I'll post again very soon w/ an update. I really really hope to hear from him today - it's Wed and he has Sat plans so if he wants fri plans w/ me it would be nice to ask today (plus I'd like to feel he would like to talk to me). Thanks again!!

[Scout]

All I can say is when my boyfriend and I were getting back together, we only saw each other once or twice a week at first. It takes time to get back to the pace you were at before. I made a point to make each time we saw each other really close, fun, and relaxed. We're now seeing each other about four times a week, sometimes five.

[moonbeam111]

Checking link removed may mean that he is somewhat insecure and wants to make sure that there are plenty of single women out there...just in case... I have done it myself without any intention of dating link removed people. Yes, I did feel insecure in my relationship some time ago.

 

In my opinion, it takes up to one year to find out if the person you are seeing is the one. Why one year? You are past the initial stage of dating, you get to know his friends and family, you spend holidays together and go on vacations together... you have your routine. Then you can decide if he/she is the one for you. Jamie, what if you discuss this one year thing with David? What is his history of dating long-term?

 

As for having sex and feeling uncomfortable, I said that before and I say it again: you have the right to say no to sex even if you were sexual with him a week ago. You don't have to feel guilty or being mainpulative. You are true to your feelings and won't feel used. See if he respects your wishes.

 

Instead of trying to pry into his head, why don't you think of other goals for your dates? Like discovering your and his likes and dislikes, trying new activities, talking about professional and spiritual growth...

[jamiek]

Good advice Moonbeam. I have been thinking about us doingsome new things to just get to know each other better. The match thing could be just what you said - he said he hasn't been on any dates 2 wks ago (he just offered it up) b/c "there was no one interesting". He has an interesting relationship background - not may really. He wasn't sexually active until age 28 (he'd love that I'm posting this) and I'm his 5th girlfriend adn sex partner. The longest was 3 yrs 8 yrs ago. His last was 9 mnths and he said she was a total control freek (like his mom) and he could "never ahve married her" but at the same time he said he was thinking of going to the "next step" / marriage w/ her. I think the relationship messed him up a bit - it ended alst Dec and he still holds hurt feelings from it (it's like he relived his relationship w/ his mom). The one year thing sounds very accurate but if he said this nt the one thing already maybe he just feels that way already I guess. Although it doesn't seem to be the case. I truly think he has closeness/intimacy issues - any discussions of going on weekend trips together were met w/ serious hesitation from him (which hurt). I won't be the one to bring such options up again. He has no close friends either (one friend really from work). He just has such a hard time talking - he clearly gets uncomfortable and either says nothing, yes, or changes the subject. He's worse then any guy or anyone w/ this that I've met. So it makes it scary and hard for me. We'll see .... thanks again girls!!! I like adn appreicate the feedback.

[Scout]

Instead of trying to pry into his head, why don't you think of other goals for your dates? Like discovering your and his likes and dislikes, trying new activities, talking about professional and spiritual growth...

 

As much as it killed me when my boyfriend and I were seeing other again,I resisted the urge to ask all the questions I had and instead focused on exactly what Moonbeam is suggesting here.

 

I am convinced this is what led him to wanting to officially get back together, too. No pressure, no prying, just a lot of fun and close times...what he loved me for before.

[jamiek]

Well, I'll do this. I still haven't heard from him yet this week since he left Sunday morning. It's Wednesday afternoon. I feel a bit hurt that he leaves my bed and no hear still (and who knows when I will hear from him – I had to by 4pm last week on a Wed). I may just need to cut the bed thing out then. You don't need to answer this (I don't mean to pry) but did you hold back on the sexual side of things for a while when you guys began hanging out again? No problem if you don't want to answer. I feel like he is happy to be w/ me again but then not getting in touch hurts and makes me wonder about things. I'm trying to stay calm.

[jamiek]

Updat: It's Thursday night and I haven't heard from him. I touched base with him first after he broke up with me. I touched base with him last week (Wed.) and then he responded and asked me to get together. It's like he wants to make me do it first. This sucks!

[whoops]

he is using you - you are better walki away and nc him - sorry but listen to teh heartache he is causing you?

 

Playing with the other persons heart is not allowed and is not to be tolerated by anyone espically by you. A heart is to be loved and looked after and one who is fickle shold be left to stew in their own insecurities - move on and stop hurting yourself you will feel happier along the line

[Scout]

Maybe he just wants to see if you're cool with spending only one or two days together a week for a while. To kind of keep the pace measured a bit. Honestly, Jamie, when my boyfriend and I were getting back together, just as many days would go by sometimes.

 

He'll contact you, just understand that it may be a much slower pace for a while. Of course, if you really, really don't feel right about things, I don't want to talk you into an attitude you don't feel is best. I just don't think that he's using you, I really don't. He does sound like he has an issues, but he also sounds like he cares about you, too. That's my honest impression, but I understand how you feel vulnerable right now because of the physical intimacy that has occurred.

[jamiek]

Maybe/very possibly but even if we were to spend one day a week together - we were together last Saturday and now it's Friday (a week later) and he hasn't gotten in touch to make a plan for this weekend/week (for a wekly get together even). Wow Whoops had a strong opinion: "Playing with the other persons heart is not allowed and is not to be tolerated by anyone espically by you. A heart is to be loved and looked after and one who is fickle shold be left to stew in their own insecurities" - I do feel like it is not nice/inconcsiderate / selfish of him knowing that I am probably hoping to hear from him and being together last Sat/Saun physically (which isn't happening anymore). Even a simple e-mail to have said hi by now would have been nice.

**Anyway, should I contact him or wait for him to do o?

[Scout]

No, I don't think you should contact him. I agree that having done the contact to date, you've done your part, and admirably so, might I add.

 

If you two skip a weekend seeing each other, that doesn't mean he isn't interested.

 

Like I said, when my boyfriend and I were getting back together, it was a very bumpy road, and without DN to frantically message back and forth with, I probably would have let my fear and impatience get the best of me! He definitely helped me keep both in check, and I am convinced that gave my boyfriend the assurance he needed that I was cool with keeping things at a different pace than before, that I had indeed changed my patience and irritability levels.

 

During this bumpy road, my boyfriend even stood me up one day. Talk about being ready to throw in the towel. But, DN talked me into staying calm about it.

 

Anyway, all these actions eventually led to our full reconcilation, and we're spending a great deal of time together again.

 

I don't want to give you false hopes. Your situation may turn out differently. But you are learning important things here, you are learning a little bit of patience, and most of all, you're not letting fear and pride hold you back from certain things. You missed your guy, so you contacted him. You regretted snapping at him at the concert that night, so you apologized.

 

I mean, all these things are GOOD, Jamie. Who knows what the end results will be as far as you two getting back together, but we know for sure you're making strides inwardly with yourself, and you know what? That's the most important thing.

 

And yes, you can step back and let him contact you again. It's a two-way thing, of course, and if he decides to wait a while to contact you, that doesn't necessarily mean one thing or another. In the meantime, live each moment in peace knowing you've done some of the things you wanted to do regarding him, and continue on with your day-to-day life.

 

One way or another, everything is going to be OK at the end. But it's the journey that is far more important.

[jamiek]

Thanks Scout, I guess you're my DN! I will let him cntact me, I'd like to feel wanted too. If I were a guy not sure of who/what I wanted, maybe I would leave big gaps between dates on purpose to not get too involved in order to still have my space to see what else is out there possibly (but it wouldn't be considerate of the other eprson's feelings). Or perhaps if I was scared to get too close again I'd do this. OR if I were sort of using someone, I would feel less guilt if I could say that I never initiated - just responded their initiatives. These are the thoughts that croos my mind as options. I don't think he is full-on using for only sex but he could be using me as as someone he likes spending some time with (who is not "the one") and someone tomeet HIS needs (regardless of mine). I can't believe the 360 that has occurres still. Thanks again. I guess I'll just keep you posted. Feel free to post any thoughts on the above!

[moonbeam111]

I think that there are two separate issues that we need to address. Scout, you have helped Jamie to stay calm and not panic, I think it's wonderful. You are paying forward for what DN did for you awhile ago.

 

However, this is an intelligent, polite, and well mannered man. He DOES KNOW that it's not right not to call, contact, or email to a woman he has been intimate with. The only reason for this behavior is could be him having second thoughts about reconnecting, being firm in his decision not to get involved with Jamie again, and actually avoiding hurting her by giving her false hopes. In fact, he may feel really bad about it and hide again! Which is exactly what passive-aggressive people do.

 

Another issue that Whoops touched on is HOW MUCH pain and frustration are you capable of tolerating Jamie just to be with David?