This involves my fiancee again, and is EVEN MORE TROUBLING. 14 year old girls.....

[engagedkitty]

....and whatnot.

 

For those who participated in my last thread and need to be refreshed and those who haven't read it:

 

 

That post of mine really needs to be read to understand the following thread I'm making so I can get accurate advice. Please and thank you. And I'm aware both posts are really long but god I need some advice badly. Pleaaaaaaase help.

 

Anyway, I tried to get over it, I tried to not let it bother me, tried to tell myself the past was the past. But something in me would not let it go. I've always had excellent intuition.

Then, we got into an argument with the neighbors (the ones who are always hanging around that slutty 14 year old.) Apparently some other neighbors told us that they were going around saying the only reason why me and my fiancee were engaged was because I'm pregnant (which I'm not.) So I went over there to have a few words with them, tried to be fair and listen to their side. They of course denied it. I said something along the lines of, "You know, I've heard a lot of things about you guys but I keep it to myself, yet I'm hearing that you guys are spreading rumors about me. I've not spread stuff about you..." And the guy was like, "You know what, I'm sure you have heard some things about me, but you don't know about your boyfriend. He's no angel, he's done some shady things himself."

 

And I was like, "Like what? Explain." And neighbor-dude just shook his head and said 'Naaah, we've been friends too long and I don't tell people's business. And that should be proof that we're not spreading rumors about you." I left and went back to the house and my boyfriend got mad, because he believed that they WERE the people who spread it, so he went over there and they got into an argument. He came back.

 

Then the other day, the neighbors younger brother was over, and he was annoying the hell out of my fiancee. My fiancee had an unusually short temper this day and threw the phone at the kid, which really pissed me off. It didn't hit him or anything but the neighbor kid went off on him and went and told his brother (the neighbor I previously mentioned.) The neighbor bust in through the door, threw my boyfriend to the ground and started beating the hell out of him. I called the police and the neighbor said "Don't call the police, you don't even know the half of it." But I just ignored him and he went outside. My fiancee was smart enough (or weak heh, he's really skinny but tall) to not fight back, knowing he could also catch assault charges. But the neighbor guy (let's call him Tim) was throwing him everywhere and then was on top of him and by this point his girlfriend had come inside and I told her she'd better stop all of this, but she was too scared. He has hit her before in rages. So I went over to him and tried to pull him off my boyfriend, but he was way too strong.

 

I even punched him in the back in an effort to get him to stop. By this point his younger tattletale brother had also realised my fiancee had had ENOUGH and was begging his brother to stop. Tim got up and turned around and looked me in the eye. I at first thought he was about to hit me too but he was like, "You don't know a THING about your boyfriend like you think you do. You think he's so wonderful? You want me to stop hurting your wonderful man? Let me tell you straight up, I know some interesting things that you should know about him."

 

My boyfriend got up and moved into the living room, his face was a MESS. My heart practically stopped when the neighbor guy (Tim) said that. I just knew it was something.. something... .

 

I said, "What???" I then told him to go outside, and told his girffriend and brother they too needed to go outside, so I could hear this.

We went outside and he said, "You know that young 14 year old girl that comes over to my house and watches my kids? YOur boyfriend tried to **** with her. Right when you were laying in the back asleep."

 

I was like, "Oh my ******* god, are you serious?" He looked me dead in the eyes and swore on his children, and his girlfriend also confirmed it was TRUE. Tim gave me a cigarette and said "Look, I'm telling you the truth. I covered for him before but i'm not going to now. He's no longer a buddy of mine."

 

I told him that my boyfriend told me that TIM was the one who had had sex with her. He said, "NO, he's just trying to cover up what he did."

 

THe police came by then and I was in a rage. my boyfriend kept saying "They're lying, they're lying, everyone knows they're lying!" And it's a small county, everyone knows everyone. He knew the cops, he tried to get the cops to tell me that he's not like that, he doesn't mess with kids and so on. I was in a rage and told them to mind their business, how do they know what people do behind closed doors? They put Tim in the police car and he kept saying, "I swear, I swear on my two kids, this happened. He took us to the store and kept trying to mess with her, I swear to it."

 

I looked dead into his eyes. No one has ever looked more honest. I asked his girlfriend for her (the 14 year old's) number. I called her, was all nice and stuff, cause I didn't want to scare her like that one time I went over there and um, cussed her out for hitting on my man. Now I see why she did that- cause she was under the impression he wanted her. Makes sense now.

 

Anyway, I explained to her who I was and what her friends the neighbors had told me. I asked if this was true. She said, with no hesitation, "Yes, your fiancee tried to get me to show him my breasts and told me to give him head." I was disgusted, absolutely disgusted. I couldn't even speak. My boyfriend was like, "She's just covering for him, they probably schemed this up the other week after they got mad at us!" Yeah. Right. Just so happens the very thing I was suspicious about in the first place is what they happened to accuse him of.

 

But we didn't have time to talk, My boyfriend went to the magistrate's office to press charges and then had to go to the emergency room but kept calling me from the hospital desperately, trying to convince me he was telling the truth and the other guy was just lying because he was angry and trying to get back at him.

 

But my intuition was telling me otherwise. 'cause like one person said in my other thread, that little girl didn't come over acting like that towards him for nothing! Plus the day the neighbor is talking about is a day I was suspicious about anyway, when she (the 14 year old) and the neighbor guy was here, cause my man was working on his computer, I just had a weird feeling about that for some reason.

 

So the entire next day, my boyfriend kept trying to convince me they were lying, even getting angry with me for wanting to believe it! He kept swearing up and down that he would never even look at a kid like that, and his past is just his past, and so on and so on and blah blah blah, and kept getting an attitude and denying it like all hell. Saying how he loves me and wouldn't do that stuff to me and etc etc etc and why would he want anyone else when he's got a grown * * * woman at the house and etc etc etc.

 

So the neeeext day I went investigating. I was slightly comforted by all the "I love yous" and "I would never do some * * * * like that" and so on and so on, but in the back of my mind, I knew. I just KNEW. I'm not stupid, and I'm certainly not naive. My intuition is so good that I can piece together a story out of the tiniest of details. So when he was at work yesterday, I went next door and talked to the neighbors. It was only the girlfriend there at first, and we talked girl to girl and we talked about the nature of men and so on and she told me that my boyfriend was just like hers, a player and had always been like that. And that last year, he was trying to get with a bunch of 16 year old cashiers that worked where she had worked, and he's always liked young girls, and he's always been a player.

 

She was forthright with me; she told me her boyfriend was also a player and he and my boyfriend had been friends for years and would go out to bars and my fiancee is a bad influence on Tim and Tim is likewise a bad influence on my fiancee. She said her boyfriend has cheated on her so many times and a lot of the times my fiancee has happened to be around and that is why she didn't particularly want my fiancee around her man and if I was smart, I wouldn't want her man around mine either.

 

She did say that my fiancee might really love me but was trying to be bad-@ss and show Tim he could still be a player so he wouldn't think he went soft, and maybe that was all. Then Tim came home ( he had made bail the night before) and told me more about the story, confirming that yeah, my fiancee has always been a player, but yeah it could be possible that he was trying to act bad in front of him as they hadn't really hung out as much as they used to in the past year or so. But he also said the 14 year old is a cute girl, and looks older than her age, and maybe he was just trying to get some "strange." He told me he was sorry about beating my boyfriend but he wasn't going to recant what he said. He swore he was telling me the truth. After spending an hour with those two my intuition was telling me they were being dead honest with me.

 

So I went back home and waited for my fiancee, and then I was so goddamn furious that I couldn't even talk to him. I didn't even want to LOOK at him. So I was being a total bitcb but not giving him any reasons as to why. He is not stupid however, and had some idea. He was like, "What the * * * * have they said now??? I'm going to go over there, and have a talk with them." and blah blah and so on. I had to stop him several times from going over there. He kept getting an attitude and raising his voice at me and saying "GODDAMMIT, I didn't try to do anything with that girl!" I got enraged and called him a "child molestor." He was getting furious, pledging his undying love for me and how he would never cheat and how he never said a thing to that girl, and how they were all lying to get back at him. Then the neighbor's girlfriend came over and asked me to watch her kids for a few minutes while she went to get her boyfriend. My boyfriend was all like, "Tell her, tell her I'm not like that, tell her!" She said, "I can't tell her that, I know what happened, Tina (The 14 year old's name) told me everything and so did Tim." She left and we watched her kids. My fiancee kept trying to talk to me the whole time and I was so sickened/upset/disgusted/hurt that I didn't say anything unless it was to be a * * * * *. He kept getting angrier and angrier.

 

By the time the neighbor girl got back there was a very clear chill in the room. She told my fiancee that Tim wanted to apologize for hurting him like that (heh probably just to get the charges dropped.) My fiancee said, "Fine, I'll go talk to him. I need to talk to him anyway." He flew out the door. Mary (neighbor girl) said "do you want to come chill with us for a while?" I was like, "I would, but I have a feeling my fiancee is gonna go over there and tell Tim that he'll drop the charges if he lies for him and covers for him so he gets out of this mess! Go listen and go find out and I'll come over tomorrow and find out what happened!" She was like "Okay!" Partners in crime already.

 

So my fiancee comes back 30 minutes later, surprise surprise, telling me that Tim wants to talk to me and tell me he only said that so called bull * * * * cause he was mad. Surprise, surprise. I was like "Honey you can say all you want to, my intuition has never failed me in the past and I know they were telling me the truth. And I know you went over there to get Tim to cover for you." He was like, "Whatever, go ask him!" I went and told Tim, "Don't even bother covering for him, I already know the truth." He turned away from me and continued cooking their dinner and I sat on the couch next to Mary. She was whispering, "Your fiancee came over here begging Tim to "fix this" situation, telling us how much he loved you and so on and so on, how he wants him to tell you it was a lie so things can go back to the way they were. I told Tim if he dares lie to you after he's already told you and looked you in the eyes and told you the truth, then me and him will have problems." I was so not surprised. Then Tim finally walked out and opened his mouth and I was like "Don't even bother, I know the truth." He smiled and was like, "You're right, it was the truth, I can't lie to you. No matter what he says. I'm not a very good liar anyway." He then said, "But honestly, he does love you. I've never seen him act like that over any female. He's never admitted to me that he's loved any female before, I've never seen him begging like that to fix a situation involving a female. He said you're different." I was like, "How?" He and Mary answered, "He's in love with you, he really is." Tim continued on to say "yes it did happen, and I don't know whether he would have done anything with Tina if she had said yes. But maybe he was just trying to act bad-@ss around me because we types of dudes don't like to show emotions around eachother. But I do believe he really does love you or he never would have told me of all people that. He;'s so worried about losing you over this. I can't say though, whether he would have done anything with her or not. She told him no."

 

I thanked them for their honesty and went back to the house where my anxious fiancee was awaiting. "See what did I tell you? I told you !" I smiled at him, I was going practically insane at this point, I was so confused as to his motives and I just felt like laughing in his face, strangely. I was like, "Actually, they still refuse to cover for you." He got angry and went over there again and came back all mad. Then we went to bed and I couldn't lay beside him. I felt sick. I tried to go in the next room but he stopped me saying we needed to talk about this. He kept swearing up and down (as he has been) that it wasn't true, Tim was just saying that cause he was mad and he would never do anything like that to me, he's never loved anyone like he loves me, and so on and so on. He said Tim slept with the 14 year old (this I do believe, knowing that Tim is a cheater, his own girl even admitted to it.) and didn't want Mary to know, and if he changes his story now the real truth might come out and Mary would leave Tim and so on. I just knew my fiancee was lying to me. It went on like this for 2 or 3 hours. I sat there listening to his declarations of love and started thinking to myself... how would I go about manipulating the truth out of him? I am not a manipulative person by nature, however, I figured it was due as he's been manipulating my mind all of these months. I thought I'd use reverse pyschology, in a way. I knew my fury was doing no good to get the truth out of him.

 

So this is how I went about it: (and for those thinking this story ends well, thinking optimistically, oh, her fiancee never would have done anything like that! Think again)

 

I calmed down (oh it was all pretend... I was still madder than hell.) and started speaking all softly and gently to him. I knew his worst fear at the moment was losing me, and I knew I had to alleviate that fear or I would never get the truth.

 

I decided I would also supply him with an excuse and see if he would bite.

 

So I gently said, "look. Maybe you were only saying those things to look bad-@ss in front of Tim. Maybe you never really had any intentions of doing anything with that girl, maybe you never even wanted to. Maybe it was all about portraying an image in front of an old friend that you used to behave badly with. If that's the case, just tell me. We could talk things through if that's the case."

 

He got silent. Then said, "(My name here), I really DO love you. I love you." And then got silent again. I knew I almost had him. So I continued:

 

"Look, if that's what it was, just tell me. I deserve to know the truth." (Here, my voice genuinely cracked and tears came into my voice. It was very real cause I really WAS close to crying yet very perfect for the manipulative tactic I was going for.) "I've been honest with you and I've never done you wrong. I may not be the most wonderfullest person in the world but I am a good person, and you know that. I try to live my life honestly. I don't deserve to be lied to. I deserve the truth. I just want to hear the truth. I need to hear the truth. And we can talk things out afterward, and see how we'd go about mending things."

 

He was very silent. Again. Then said, "You'll seriously talk with me?"

 

And that's when I knew I had him. Even though my heart knew the truth, I felt some serious pain hearing that, because that alone told me all I needed to know, and confirmed the reality I already knew.

 

I continued to keep calm although my voice was wavering. "Yes," I said. "We'll talk about this. Just please tell me the truth, I deserve the truth."

 

He sighed and said, "Okay. That day I was in the computer room and Tim came to the door wanting me to burn him a DVD and fix his computer. That girl was with him, I really didn't pay her any attention. Me and Tim went into the computer room and the girl sat on the couch and watched TV. I didn't even look at her! Tim was telling me how he had sex with her, he was whispering so she couldn't hear. I was just being immature, trying to be bad-@ss. I said, 'watch this.' But stopped knowing it was wrong and didn't say anything. Tim egged me on and said do it man, come on, it'll be funny. I know you're good for talking * * * *. I said naah, man, but he told me to quit being a p-ussy. So I said that stuff, but I wasn't even looking at her! I swear! I was looking at the computer screen when I said it. I knew it was wrong, I knew she was a kid and I felt bad for doing it."

 

I started getting angry then and my facade slipped a little. "Yeah. You felt so bad yet kept on harassing this girl when you took Tim and her to the store. That says to me you didn't want to take her no for an answer, because I know you and I know perfectly well you DON'T take no for an answer."

 

At first he kept denying that he even took them to the store and said he said ONE thing to that girl, but kept on asserting how much he loved me and how guilty he felt. I kept hounding him for the truth and he finally admitted that yeah, he did say stuff to her in the car but it was because Tim kept elbowing him supposedly and whispering "do it man, do it." And he felt peer pressured and didn't want Tim to call him a p-ussy.

 

I got furious and my facade disappeared completely. I said, "But you're a grown MAN! How could you sit there and say things like that to a CHILD??? She's a little girl! Just because she looks developed doesn't mean it's okay for you to talk to her like that. Even 17 would be too damn young for you!" He said, "I know, even 18 would be in my eyes really. I wasn't even going to mess with her, I was just trying to look bad in front of Tim! I swear it." I got even more pissed and called him a child molestor and cried and all of that, and told him he could get in serious trouble if the girl's parents found out. It's a crime here, it's a felony. To even say such things to a child. And I couldn't comprehend how, even if it was just to look a certain way in front of his friend, why he would say things to a KID like that. What if it was the little 11 year old accross the street? Would he say those things to HER?? "NO, I wouldn't!" He said. Yet, you say them to a 14 year old????? She's a child also, what's the difference here?

 

He said he couldn't really tell how young she was. Um, excuse me? You can look at her and tell she's a kid, or so I thought you said. "Yeah, I know but I didn't know she was that young! I didn't want her anyway, all I want is you!" and so on and so on.

 

And see, a few weeks after this incident had occurred, (when I was none the wiser) Tim had came over to chat and then my fiancee had followed him inside. Then he came back inside telling me that Tim was having sex with the 14 year old behind Mary's back. I asked how old she was, and he said Tim had said she was 14. My fiancee was laughing rather nervously, now I know exactly why. Apparently this was the second time Tim was describing how he had sex with her to my fiancee. And my fiancee was clearly laughing nervously because he had found out how old that girl really was and had just found out that he was hitting on a CHILD.

 

My fiancee tried to say that since he told me about that one time that young girl was hitting on him, means he really didn't want her. In his logic, if he had, he would have talked to her then and hit on her again, instead he was rude to her. And a week before that she had come to the door asking for cigarettes and he shut the door in her face. Another time she came out flouncing around and asked for cigs, and he told her he doesn't give cigarettes to kids. Which I had heard.

 

But this proves NOTHING because I now think he didn't think she was only 14. Cause quite honestly, the girl could pass for 17 or 18, face looking rather young but fabulous adult girl body. And then when he found out, he was then disgusted with himself. But before that when he thought she was older... I think he wanted her..... it's all a mess. But after many nights of arguing over this, I was just ready to leave him and made plans to do so. He was honestly devastated, crying and carrying on. Then he got a phone call from his dad, who told him he has cancer, and asked him if we could come to Illinois to visit him. He begged me to. I refused, saying "why? I'm leaving you." He started crying and his dad asked to talk to me. His dad didn't know what was going on but asked me to please come and said we just needed to get away from the stress of the county we live in, oh if he really knew. I couldn't say no though, I just couldn't. So I told him we would both definitely go. I told my fiancee later that after the trip to Illinois that we were over, and I would only act nice so not to disrupt his dad. I also told him this would show him the good woman that I am, that he lost when he decided to be unfaithful (or try to be anyway. But same thing in my eyes.) I told him this would show him the person that I am. The good woman I am, because I was there to support him and his dad through his struggle despite what he did.

 

During that weekend in Illinois we talked at night and he kept trying to convince me that he really was trying to look bad around Tim. And when I first met my fiancee he was trying to portray someone he was not to impress me and my friends to. Then as he got to know me better and realized what a real person I am, my influence started rubbing off on him and he stopped caring what people thought about him. He started acting like HIMSELF, with a few lapses here and there everytime a male friend was around. *rolls eyes* And when this incident had happened, it was at the begginning of our relationship when yes, he DID try to act bad- * * * around his friends. So I started conceding to his word and slowly felt myself being convinced. I didn't want to leave him, I love him and I KNOW he loves me, he never would have expressed such emotion in front of Tim of all people if he didn't. He made it clear he knew it was wrong but said he would do whatever it takes to make it up to me and I would see in the long run, and he would prove himself to me, and nothing like that would ever happen again. He said he was through trying to impress his friends. I started to believe him. I figured, well that one day when that 14 year old was hitting on him, he DID run in and tell me. If he really wanted her wouldn't he have tried to talk to her then? He said when she started acting like that he knew he had messed up, cause she had got it into her head that he had really wanted her. He said the whole thing was a joke and Tim was encouraging him to do it and he thought everyone knew it was a joke. (See how the story shifted slightly from the first time he told it?)

 

We came back and were okay for a couple of days, or so I pretended. I still had investigating to do. And I couldn't help myself, I still kept asking him questions. I wanted to know why couldn't he have just told Tim he had a girl in the back that he was with, and wasn't going to hit on anyone else? His response was that peer pressure was a * * * * * but he would never screw up like that again. But then he told me that he DID talk to Tim about me. He said Tim had asked about me, asked where I was at and who I was, saying I was 'hot.' he was telling Tim how he was gonna marry me someday, how I was different from all the other girls and I treated him good. He asked him if he was proud of him for landing me. My fiancee was trying to prove that he was really thinking about me the whole time and didn't want that girl... but why was it that Tim had to bring me up, and my fiancee didn't? HMMMMMMMM.

 

Then he stopped and I wondered if that was ALL he said. I knew, just knew, as my intuition has been guiding me well, that there was more that he said. I kept prodding him until he said, "You're going to be angry when I tell you what I told him." I told him I couldn't be any more angry than I already am. He said, "Well this should be proof that I was trying to act bad around Tim. I told him that I stole you from your ex because we had sex and you fell in love with me after that because I was so good in bed." I was like, "what????" It was a complete lie. I was already done with my ex when I started seeing my fiancee. Nervously and shamedfaced, he continued. "I also showed him how we had went through nearly a box of condoms within a week."

 

I was mildly pissed that he lied and made himself out to be a sexgod but it did seem to make sense, that he was trying to look a certain way in front of his friend. So I was again convinced. But I still kept questioning myself.

 

So I told Mary I wanted to talk with Tina (the 14 year old) in more depth and detail about this situation. I really need to talk to Tim but he's been working a lot so I've not been able to. I need to confirm if this is true, the stuff about him supposedly egging my fiancee on to do it, and so on.

 

So yesterday my fiancee was outside talking to a neighbor and Mary brought Tina over. They assumed my fiancee wasn't gonna be there cause they didn't want to be around him. (You know it turns out, Mary who I had previously dismissed as white trash, has been very helpful and friendly in all this drama).

 

But my fiancee saw them and came running back in, I think to intimidate the 14 year old into covering for him. He kept saying, "I want to get this * * * * straight TODAY, cause I'm tired of arguing about it. Tell her, tell her that it was just a joke."

 

The 14 year old timidly said "I'm sorry but if it was a joke, I didn't know it... I didn't think it was."

 

He was like, "Tim was telling me the whole time to do it!!! I barely even looked at you! Tell her!"

 

SHe was getting flustered and intimidated. I got angry and told my fiancee to leave the house for the moment so we girls could talk. So he did and Mary told the girl to tell me how the whole story. I acted very nice to avoid intimidating her, and she got really friendly, comfortable, and opened up. I found out that she has just turned 15. By the way, she definiitely could pass for 17 or 18. I would never look at her and think, "hmm, must be 14 or 15." No, anyone would think she was 17/18. She said yes she and Tim came over here so a DVD could be burnt and so my fiancee could fix his computer. She said Yes, she sat on the couch and was watching TV but contrary to what my fiancee says, she went into the computer room several times to see what they were doing, and she said my fiancee was looking at her up and down and started making those perverted comments towards her. She said yeah he was ignoring her at first and yeah the dudes were in the room with the music on but after a couple of times of her walking in there, he started saying all that stuff to her and continued saying it when he took them to the store. Stuff like, show me your breasts and give me head. She also said that he was like, "my girfriend is in the back asleep, she'll never know.. c'moooon, she's asleep, she doesn't have to know.." She said after that though, he never hit on her again or even talked to her. I asked her to explain that one day she was supposedly hitting on him. She said (and she looked to be honest) that she thought she was just being friendly, and she didn't ask for a hug like he claimed. She said he was being rude in response and she had said, "what you can't talk to nobody?" and he was like "nope." And she said yes, she said "Does she have you on lockdown" but it wasn't meant to be a come-on. And he said, "Yep." And Mary (Tim's girlfriend) told me that Tim never said a thing to her about telling my fiancee to do it cause it'd be funny. ANd if he did he would have told her, she said. And Tina, the 14 year old (now 15 year old) told me she didn't hear Tim saying anything like that but she didn't know. So after telling me all of that the two girls went back to the house and my fiancee came back wanting to know what was said.

 

I was like, "How interesting, you claim you barely even looked at her, and that she sat on the couch the whole time, yet she says she walked in the computer room several times to see what you two were doing and you were looking her UP AND DOWN and hitting on her."

 

He kept denying that she even went in there, and if she did, "he didn't really know it." And he swore up and down he "was NOT looking her up and down." And he said "of course Tim's not going to tell Mary that he was egging me on to talk that * * * * to the girl, cause he doesn't want to get in trouble with her. She would get mad over something like that, and he's also covering for himself, he doesn't want her to know he slept with the girl."

 

He got angry and went next door and got the now-15-year old to come back over. I first made him apologise to her. He looked at her with an ashamed look (I could see it CLEARLY) and said "Look, I didn't mean anything by it, I was just joking, I thought you knew it was a joke. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be offensive." But then said "I was not looking you up and down though, tell her, tell her."

 

The girl said, "I'm sorry, but you WERE.." And i told her to demonstrate how he did it and she did. He kept denying it and said "Look, I'm sorry if I did look you up and down, I didn';t think that i did. I love (My name inserted here) and I'm going to marry her. Look at her ring, look at it. I love her." The girl politely looked and was like, "That's awesome, I'm glad for you two, I hope everything is cool now???" And pretty much told him to calm down and just chill cause he kept going on about "it was just a joke, I didn't mean nothing by it, I love (my name here) " and blah blah.

 

So she went back next door to Tim and Mary.

 

.............But after seeing her up close and personal and really LOOKING at her, I've got a theory. I don't believe my fiancee had any idea she was 14. I believe he probably figured her for 17 or 18 like I said. I don't know if Tim egged him on or not- I've got to talk to Tim and who knows if he will admit to that, cause if he does he'll be in serious trouble with his girl, and he would have to explain why exactly he'd be egging him on... and that would probably lead to him having to confess about sleeping with that kid. And Mary would kill him, just kill him. So even though he's been honest, he's still one of those unmoralistic sorts, and he's got to protect his own butt now. I doubt he would admit if he was egging my fiancee on to do it. But my fiancee said himself, he knew she was young but didn't know she was THAT young. That kind of tells me something right there. It's like he was thinking, "I know she's a teenager but likely a older teenager and hopefully legal." Then when he found out from Tim how old she was that day.... . THAT'S when he started acting cold towards her and that's why he ran in and told me when she was supposedly 'flirting' cause he was starting to think of possible legal ramifications, and didn't want anyone to think he liked young girls. He probably, like I said, thought she was 18, and felt disgusted with himself when he found out her true age.... hence his change of attitude towards her. He was probably like, "dammit, she thinks I like her now, and since she's a kid that's not good, not good at alll.." and had to cover things up really quick. Maybe he really DID want to do things with her, why the hell else would he say it. And like I said, she has an awesome body, she told me herself older guys are ALWAYS mistaking her for being 18 and are always trying to have sex with her.

 

I do believe YES my fiancee loves me and right now at this point in our relationship would not do anything stupid with another female. He is by my side 24/7, when he gets off work he comes right home and doesn't want to do anything without me. But the fact remains, he did what he did. And could easily do it again if his feelings start fading in the future.

 

I don't know what to do... please help. What does everyone think about this situation? Do you think he truly had intent? PLEASE HELP.

[Scout]

Hi, there...I remember your previous thread. It took me a while to get to the end of this one, whew, that was quite a read.

 

And I hate to give a short response to such a long post, but hon, the fact is, your fiance has a weak character. It doesn't matter if his friend influenced him to hit on this young girl or not, he did it, and he lied like crazy to get out of it.

 

You sound like a strong woman. Do you really want to be yoked to such a weak man?

 

The damage that is done here looks pretty irreversible to me. Even if you stay with him, you are never going to trust him again. I'm fairly sure of this.

 

Right now, you are starting to feel sorry for him, but be honest with yourself: do you respect this man anymore? Once trust and respect are gone, it's only a matter of time before the relationship is over.

 

I think you know in your heart the answers to this situation.

[engagedkitty]

Sorry about how long it was, I just felt I had to tell every detail so people would understand..

 

It does seem that yes he has a weak character... but it does seem he wants to change it. But that's always easier said than done. And you're right, I probably would never trust him again.

 

The problem is that I just can't leave. I don't know why. And I still want to get to the very bottom of this, I want to get inside his head and KNOW, just KNOW, if he really had intent, if he really wanted her or if it really was just because his friend said to do it, or if it was a mixture of both...

 

I do have some respect for him, he is an amazing and loving father to his 3 year old daughter from a previous relationship. And he's always wanting to help people, and he really is a nice person, doesn't know how to tell people no, or doesn't want to rather. And he's always thinking of things he can do for me and would do anything I said, and would get me anything I wanted or needed.

 

But the fact remains he did what he did. In your honest opinion (after reading all of that....) what do you think about what he wanted? do you think he did want her, or it really was peer pressure? And if so, isn't it really immature for a man 25 going on 26 to still cave in to it, or is that normal???

[engagedkitty]

Plus I don't know if I'm really as strong as I seem because even though I don't take a lot of * * * * from people, the fact is I love him and just can't imagine really leaving...

[engagedkitty]

Plus now, he keeps wanting to "drop it' and thinks I should just easily "drop it" and should stop bringing it up... but I can't. I bring it up often.

[Scout]

I think he really was attracted to that girl. He has a past history of sleeping with very young girls, remember. And to be honest, I feel sorry for this girl. She's obviously headed down the wrong road, and the adults she's hanging out with are encouraging it. Your fiance and his friend.

 

To me, what has happened would be a dealbreaker. It's just too sordid and ugly, all of it.

[engagedkitty]

I think he was too.. . and I mean, she is very attractive... I've always said something like this would be a dealbreaker and I told my friend that I would leave if I found out this stuff was true (which I have..) and I still can't seem to... go. Plus all his begging and pleading and "I really love you" and so on and so on...

[engagedkitty]

Also- do you think it is possible that he knew it was wrong, felt guilty and would never do it again? I know everyone makes mistakes.. this was a huge one no doubt but what if he is sincere in saying it would never happen again?

[engagedkitty]

But also (I know, I know, I keep rambling and going on and on, sorry) ... .what if she had said YES????? My friend said to me, look, girl... if he had said YES... what then? Maybe the only thing that stopped him from actually cheating was the fact that she said no... and then later he found out how young she was and stopped in his pursuit...

[Scout]

Also- do you think it is possible that he knew it was wrong, felt guilty and would never do it again? I know everyone makes mistakes.. this was a huge one no doubt but what if he is sincere in saying it would never happen again?

 

I don't believe he would not do it again, if given the opportunity down the road. As I said before, he has a weak character. The only reason he is remorseful is because he got caught. I'm sure his feelings of remorse are genuine, but he seems in general to lack self-control and an ability to make mature decisions. He acts on his emotions and desires a lot.

 

For example, throwing a phone at his friend's brother. Very immature.

 

Hanging out with other guys who cheat. Birds of a feather....

 

Being willing to drop charges against someone who beat the crap out of him in exchange for the guy lying for him. I mean, that's just weak character on so many levels...

 

And the biggest thing of all, hitting on a young girl like that. Even knowing that such behavior could actually land him in jail.

 

It just seems he's a reckless person, and it's all coming to the surface now. I know you love him, but better you find out these things now then down the road when you're married and have kids with him.

[Dako]

A guy with this much of a drama cloud isn't likely to change, and that doesn't account for whatever secrets have yet to surface.

 

I'd suspect anyone that stays with him is self-destructive or hooked on the excitement.

[Bingo72]

I hate to sound uncaring and abrasive here but I'm going to say it anyway. Get away from him and get the hell out of that neighborhood!

 

Is this really a good enought life for you? You're not even married and look what you are going through. So what happens ten years down the road when he is 35 years old? There will be a new batch of 14 year old girls and I doubt that he'll stop checking them out.

 

Be honest with yourself, you had the gut feeling that something is not right, I see your whole relationship is toxic and full of anxiety over this. It is only going to get harder.

 

Sorry to be blunt but don't waste your youth on him.

[Honey Pumpkin]

Phew - just read through that post - I'm exhausted!

 

I don't know, the thing that really *really* upsets me in this post is the way that a 14 year old girl has been messed around by 4 adults. She's been hit on by two of them, and then forced to have long conversations about it, and interpret it etc. it's just not on. Even the fact that you called her 'that slutty 14 year old' as your opening comment. My first point is that from now on, you should ALL stay well away from her, and leave her out of this adult set of fairly sordid dynamics. Stop judging how old she looks or acts, emotionally she is still a child and vulnerable. Leave her alone.

 

Okay, harsh bit over. I'm so sorry for you, it's a complex tale, and quite hard to work out, but to be honest, I would be out of there, like Scout says. There are too many warning flags, too much to risk. I wouldn't be happy about any of it, and I think it's a murky world, with quite odd justifications and discussions. At the very least, I would want counselling and open and honest communications. But there was just such a lot in your post which would make me walk away now, before the wedding. You're obviously a thoughtful and caring person, and I think you deserve better. I think your unhappiness with him and these situations are likely to get worse - I don't see this going away.

 

Take care.

[Scout]

I don't know, the thing that really *really* upsets me in this post is the way that a 14 year old girl has been messed around by 4 adults. She's been hit on by two of them, and then forced to have long conversations about it, and interpret it etc. it's just not on. Even the fact that you called her 'that slutty 14 year old' as your opening comment. My first point is that from now on, you should ALL stay well away from her, and leave her out of this adult set of fairly sordid dynamics. Stop judging how old she looks or acts, emotionally she is still a child and vulnerable. Leave her alone.

 

I really have to agree with the points made here. Here is a 14 year old girl getting mixed up in some very damaging situations. I would not want to be part of a crowd where things like this stuff actually happens, and if my fiance was participating in it at ANY level, I would seriously question his character. But knowing the part your fiance has played...which is a great deal more than just superficial...again, I would be out of there. This is just not right.

[BrokenWingedFaery]

To be quite blunt: Leave him, leave the neighborhood.

 

The grrrl is probably gonna need several years of therapy as an adult already. She's been molested, cussed at for being slutty, hit on by grown men, made to talk about this over and over again. I feel sorry for her.

 

My fear in this isn't just for the random 14 year olds in the neighborhood, it's for your future kids. It makes me shudder to think about a man like that being around a young grrrl 24/7. I believe you said once he had a daughter of his own, which terrifies me.

 

Whatever is happening here isn't right. Being "bad@ss" by hitting on and molesting a 14 year old child isn't excusable. If you said he was trying to be cool by hitting on a waitress or something, it'd be excusable (marginally). But what he did can't be explained away by trying to impress one's friends. Things like this take a desire to do them first. And he's done it before. Men who do this won't stop until someone MAKES them stop, and sometimes not even then.

[southerngirl]

Okay you need to leave this situation right now. Sounds like that entire circle you are hanging out with is full of drama.

 

Your 'fiance' lies to you. Hits on young girls. Has a weak Charactor as scout pointed out, that 14 year old does not need to be going through this either as they pointed out.

 

Before you go to analizing how old this girl is or how slutty you think she is. Have any of you had the decency to tell her parents what is going on? I doubt it.

 

Okay so get this strait you all are adults and she is a child as you put it so well. Why were you dragging her into it not once, but three times to DISCUSS it? What more is there you need to discuss with her.. Sheesh not only was she possibly RAPED by the neighbor but then harassed and ATTEMPTED by your fiance only to be harassED further by you and the girl-neighbor.

 

Sorry to sound so harsh about it, but dang this is really bad stuff going on. I seriously think you need to leave. Like now.

[Jlizzy]

Read what I wrote in the other thread. I was basically backing your boyfriend up more than you.

 

Now read these words: you're not married yet. Walk away. RUN!

 

I think people maybe sometimes start looking for issues because they're scard but also often it can actually be a sign of sensing a deeper rotted problem. I had this happen with my ex husband. I wasn't feeling comfortable. Turned out he had been writing emails to "his great friend Laurie" for a year about how much they wanted to f*** each other. Last emails they were writing was where they were takling about meeting up.

 

definitely get out. This is too much of a mess.

[Jlizzy]

Yeah I agree that the parents should probably be informed for the welfare of their daughter. That's way messy!!

[engagedkitty]

Well everyone, I just found out some new info, which I will post after responding to your replies. Hopefully you can all give me advice on the new info as well. And as always I appreciate all the advice.

 

Scout-

It's like you can see into his head, because it really is true. He does seem to lack self-control and an ability to make mature decisions, and yes, he does seem to act on his emotions an desires a lot. Sometimes it can be really fun, other times as in the current situation it's definitely not. Wonder what else I am going to find out before it's all done?

 

Dako, well I wouldn't say I'm hooked on excitement. I'm stressed beyond belief. My period (I know, I know, TMI) was supposed to start last month on the 21st or so, and has not. And it's the 19th now and I've still not started and am supposed to start again in a few days. Severe stress will cause you to be late on your periods or even skip them. Also I've been having jitteryness, constant heartburn (I'm 20! I don't get heartburn!), which I've also heard is from stress, and just general nervous stomach problems, over all of this. So no, I'm definitely not hooked on the excitement. Self-destructive perhaps, because I just can't seem to go when I know it's wrong for me. So I guess you have a point there.

 

Fides75, you're right, toxic and I'm definitely full of anxiety, it's insane. I'm having actual PHYSICAL symptoms of anxiety, it's so bad. I'm not sure if at 35 he will be checking out 14 year olds though- he knows it's wrong, which I will explain in my following post after I'm done responding to everyone.

 

Honey_Pumpkin, you're right. You really are. And yes, I DO feel remorse over yelling at her that one time I thought she was hitting on my man. But that one day when Mary brought her over to talk to me, I was very nice to her, and I apologized to her for what happened. I also made my fiancee apologize to her when he came back in. She was very understanding about it and even invited me to come hang out with her and Mary at Mary's house. She really is a nice girl and I truly feel bad about being so nasty about her, and yes it was wrong of me to call her slutty. And yes we will be staying away from her. My fiancee definitely. I may not, as I go over and talk to Mary often and vice versa and I'm sure the 14 - now 15- year old will be there. But her and I've got no problems whatsoever now and are on friendly terms. But, she wasn't forced to have the conversations I must say. I told Mary I wanted to talk to her, and Mary passed along the message, and told me the girl was more than willing. And I was very nice when I did talk to her, and didn't try to press her for information, I just let her tell me the story though I did from time to time insert a question, just for clarification. It was my fiancee who tried to force her to say things, and knowing that was wrong, I sent him outside. But I also must say- yes she is a child and yes she is being messed around by adults. But, she HAS slept with Mary's man behind her back, so her mind isn't as innocent as she seems. I think the only reason why she told my fiancee no is because Tim was around at the time, and obviously as she's sleeping with him she's attached to him in some sort of way, being young, rather naive, and yes, being messed around by an adult, that being Tim. Mary and her are friends, but Mary has no idea what's happened. Calling her slutty isn't really justified, but... I don't know. I have tried telling Mary about this by the way, but she thinks my fiancee is just saying that to distract the attention away from himself. I know it's a fact because the girl admitted to it that night after Mary went back to the house, but Mary is in denial about it... actually I think a part of her knows, because she knows her man is a cheater, but she just doesn't want to know about it. But yes I agree counselling would be needed, if I was even to stay. And I told him I DEMAND counselling if I am to stay and he agreed. But I just don't know what to do.

 

BrokenWingedFaery, I don't really know that she was molested, she was a willing participant in the sex thing with Tim. But she's so young and impressionable that she was easily manipulated- however many people in this area know about the girl, and know she's way more experienced than most girls her age. To put it bluntly, she's slept with a lot. I know my fiancee was HORRIBLY WRONG in what he did, but I would NEVER ever, think he would ever hurt his own child in that way. I've seen how he is with her- his daughter adores him more than anyone in this world. I must defend him on that one thing. But you're so right, it's not excusable to hit on young girls just to be a bad- * * *.

 

southerngirl, see above comments to Honey Pumpkin. But no, no one's said a thing to her parents, simply because they would not care. Her father is one of the biggest druggies in this county, sadly. Her mom doesn't care that she's sexually active and is aware the girl has slept with other men in their 20's. And doesn't care. I feel sorry for her- I honestly do.

 

Jizzy, women's intuition is a real thing, not just myth. I see from your situation with your ex husband that you know this. My intuition was dead on... and always has been. I don't think I am scared but I think it's true what you said, that I'm sensing deeper problems within the man I'm supposed to be marrying.

[engagedkitty]

Okay, here is what happened last night.

 

I've been stressed. And the more and more I sit here and think about this as the days are going by the more angrier, hurt, stressed, disgusted, and anxious I become. I cannot let it go, I WILL NOT let it go. I'll be DAMNED if I let this go. I couldn't take it anymore, he was acting like everything was fine, laughing with me, being sweet towards me and loving as he always does. Bought me some candles and we are redecorating his house together and so on ... the other night we made a team effort and cooked together. He was going to cook for me but I pitched in and he was talking about how nice it was... like a family. And the other day my 18 year old sister, nephew, and her fiancee came over, and we all had a really good time. And my fiancee was talking about how we all needed to get together and have breakfast sometime and go do stuff together like a family. They were really impressed and stuff. And things would be so great between us if it weren't for what happened. This is what just kiiiiiiiiiiilllllls me, how can people be ... two different things? Or.. whatever, I don't know what the hell I'm trying to say.

 

But at one point I had to call my best friend and talk this all over with her because it kept building up inside and I was about to just ... break down, I guess you could say. I took a shower and afterwards while in the bathroom towelling my hair I had a mini-breakdown. The stress is seriously taking a toll on me, I don't know how long I can put up with this. I shouldn't have to. So I called my best friend and we talked and talked, and I just told her my theory: that my fiancee looked at her, saw an attractive female, and didn't realize how young she really was. Probably thought she was around 18, as I've said time and time again, she REALLY does look like she is, whether she is mentally or not. I know someone said I should stop analyzing her looks and maturity and so on but the fact is, she looks 18, and the fact is, a lot of others would agree, and I seriously doubt a single person would look at her and think she was 15. And with the added peer pressure of his friend, started hitting on her. And because this was at the beginning of the relationship with me, he thought to himself, "well it's not like me and her are married or anything... it's not like we're madly in love" although he was at the time saying he was "in love" with me. However that early in the relationship I was like, "it's just infatuation and you're confusing it with love." I have no doubt that he does love me now, I know he does. But back then it was infatuation and I think he knew that. And because he mistakenly thought she was old enough, he didn't think it was such a big deal and wanted to impress his friend. I guess he wanted to show his friend that although he had a girl, he wasn't all tied-down, "locked down" or "whipped". I think if she had said yes to him he would have done those things with her, mistakenly thinking she was older. But that, I'm not sure about it.

 

I told my friend that I had to find out the truth and I had to find it out tonight. I was getting tired of hearing him lying about it, saying "no I didn't find her attractive! I didn't mean anything by it! It was just a joke!" and so on and so on. I think it wasn't a joke, really. I think he misjudged her age, and then a few weeks later when he found out how old she REALLY was he felt disgusted by himself, (as I really don't think he'd mess with kids at the age he is now) and that explains why when she'd come to the door asking for cigarettes he'd shut the door in her face. And it also explains why that one day she came outside being a bit flirty trying to get cigarettes he was curt and rude to her, and later that day when my friend and I was inside and she came outside trying to talk to him again, THAT'S why he was veeeeeery rude to her and came inside and told me. He didn't want to deal with any legal ramnifications and knew it was wrong. I truly believe he didn't know how old she was and when he found out he was scared and ashamed and tried everything in his power to keep her away. I also believe that the reason why he kept denying it repeatedly all these months is because he was ashamed and didn't want anyone to know he had been attracted to a girl that young, not knowing how young she actually was. And why when the story finally came out, I think the reason why he kept denying that he was even looking at her and that it was all jocular and that he didn't even find her attractive, was because he was ashamed after he found out how young she was. Ashamed and scared. And that's why he would get so angry when I would question him about it, because he was ashamed. He knew it was wrong.

 

My question is, if she HAD really been 18, what would have happened? Would he have kept trying to get with her after that?? And what if she had said yes ??? Would he have done it? Would he completely disregard what he had with me? And as far as I'm looking at it, he pretty much DID when he hit on her.

 

I told my friend I realize that everyone makes horrible mistakes. And there is a difference between a person who can make a mistake and consciously WANT to change, and DO CHANGE, for the person that they are with. And then there's people who make mistakes, keep on making the same sort of mistakes, because they don't care. They have no morals and no desire to change.

 

I think my fiancee is the former, I think he really does love me, I think he DOES want to change, I don't think he wants to be a sheep, and go with the crowd, I think he's fully aware of how wrong it is, what he did. But the question is, CAN he change? Or will he change only for awhile, just to revert to his old ways? I will only know that by giving him a second chance. I think most people deserve a second chance to right their wrongs and prove themselves. (Not murderers and child rapists and so on... but you guys know what I mean.)

 

But, in order to receive that second chance, the WHOLE truth would HAVE TO COME OUT. He would only deserve that second chance if he was willing to commit to step one, and that would be utmost and total honesty. That's what I demand. That's what I DESERVE. If he could not admit to the whole truth, then why should he get that second chance? Most people, as evidenced by everyone's posts, wouldn't even GIVE him that second chance. So he's goddamned LUCKY that I would even CONSIDER IT!

 

Step one would involve the truth. I will not accept anything but the truth, I will not be a doormat and let him manipulate my mind. I am not a stupid girl. I'm not a stupid girl at all. I KNEW exactly what it is that happened. I just needed to hear it from him. And the more he tells his skewed version of the truth the more he believes it himself. He has to admit it to HIMSELF.

 

So I got off the phone with her and explained those things to him. He pretty much knew something was up as I holed myself in the bedroom with the phone. I explained to him everything I just said to you guys, about second chances, and honesty, and what my theory was about what happened.

 

He sighed and was silent for a really long while. Then said, "Dammit. How is it that you're always right about things? How do you just.... know?" I told him I've always been like that and my intuition has always been that excellent. Then waited calmly for him to continue.

 

He was silent for a minute, and then it all just..... flooded out. He said, "Dammit, you're right. I did think she was older, I had NO IDEA she was really that young. I'm not attracted to young girls, my past is my past and I was younger then too, and it didn't matter then. I thought she was about 18 or 19, and I really wasn't even looking at her that hard. I admit yeah, I looked at her body, and thought she was 18/19, but I really wasn't paying her that much attention."

 

I said, "....but you were attracted to her, basically." He said, "Yes, dammit yes, I was. I'm sorry, I feel so ashamed." I looked at his face- the shame was not only apparent but GENUINE. I let him continue.

 

And I finally got the entire story, for the first goddamned time.

 

He said Tim had came over that morning with his computer tower for my fiance to fix (if I haven't stated already, he has a computer technician certification and does that in his spare time for extra cash) and also two 24 oz beers for them both. My fiance doesn't really drink, I must say here. He used to... and it became a problem. He managed to quit. It only seems that when a guy is around, he will drink a beer or two ... I guess just to show them he's not changed his hardcore ways? *rolls eyes*

 

So my fiance had a slight buzz going on, probably more so than Tim, being that he doesn't drink that much and only weighs 165 (he is 6'2). Tim could probably down a lot more and not feel it... but anyway. He said Tim was telling him about how he was having sex with this girl and she was "really hot" and she was the babysitter. He said that when Mary would go to work, he'd sometimes get off work early, go home, and the 15 year old (then 14 year old) and he would have sex. My fiance said he never mentioned her age at all and he assumed she was probably around Mary's age (Mary is 18.) Tim is 20 like me. My fiance said he didn't want to be rude and listened to Tim's sordid tale of cheating. ANd my fiance is really like that, he can't stand to be mean to people.. Then he said that Tim said, "Hold on man, I'll be right back." And went next door and came back with the 15 year old. My fiance said he thinks Tim was trying to show her off and that's why he went over and got her.

 

My fiance said she was sitting on the couch watching TV and yeah he glanced at her but said, quote, "yes, at a glance I found her attractive." Obviously because of her developed body. He also said he thought she was 18 or perhaps 19, and the thought she was younger never crossed his mind. He said that though he found her attractive, it was as simple as me seeing guys on music videos and finding them attractive. That does not mean I would sleep with them or even think about things like that... he said, "it's just nature." He said he was not thinking of dirty things, he wasn't even thinking of her at all. He said Tim kept whispering stuff to him about her in the computer room and she'd pop in there from time to time and be like, "What are you whispering about?" Tim would laugh and say "Nothing."

 

Then he said Tim was like, "Man.. I feel like laughing, talk * * * * to her, I know you're good for it... come on man..." I believe that yes Tim would find stuff like that funny, he lacks morals and I have witnessed him laughing when his younger daughter fell and hit her head. She is 18 months.

 

Yes my fiance has a weak character. He also has this need to "be liked.." I've heard a lot of stories about his life, when he was younger he was poor and "geeky" and when he got to middle school he made friends with the cool people by acting like them, trying to fit in... and became a "cool person" by behaving like them and going against his internal nature. He said sometimes he still feels like that kid in elementary school, inadequate around some of his 'friends' and yes, that is immature of him at this age but also in some ways understandable. He said he was trying to show Tim he still had it, and gain his cool points back, he felt like he had lost them in the past year. He told me that he said to Tim, "Watch this.." but paused a bit. He said he was nervous about doing it, that he knew he had me sleeping in the back bedroom, knew it was wrong. He had worked REALLY REALLY hard to get me and he didn't want to destroy a relationship he had "already established." But he also thought, "well it's not like we're getting married or anything, I don't even know how she really feels or if she will grow to love me.." He said he was really infatuated with me but wasn't truly in love and yes he cared but at that time, was mistaking infatuation for love. He said all of this and more made him hesitate. But he said Tim kept prodding him and saying "Cmon man... do it, don't be a p-ussy..." and wouldn't stop.

 

He said he's seen Tim do that to some of their other friends and if they wouldn't do what he said, he'd mock them, and call them * * * * * * *, and so on. He said he didn't want to be on the recieving end of that and figured it'd be harmless. He also said it was slightly fuelled by alcohol. So he said, "hey... what are you doing out there?"

 

And she said, "I'm watching TV..." and he said, "Do you want to do something else?" And he said he laughed when he said it, nervously. And she said, "Like what?" And that's when he said those things to her. She said no but laughed so he thought she knew he wasn't really serious.. he said she came in the computer room then and he REALLY looked at her this time, in the face... and then he realized that she was younger than he had taken her for. He said something about 'baby fat' and something. He said he felt ashamed and guilty and also guilty because of the hard work he had put into getting me. He said he didn't know what to do then and Tim kept telling him to do it. He said he kept trying to change the subject and Tim (getting drunker) was like "C'mon on maaaaan, c'mon, it's all in fun and games." He said he then took them to the store so Tim's drunk @ss could get more beer, and Tim kept elbowing him and telling him to say stuff. He said he was feeling sick to his stomach and knew he could get in serious trouble and didn't want to say a thing, but Tim wouldn't leave him alone so he said one more thing halfheartedly and then thought to himself, " * * * * it, she's a kid, this is wrong" and that he fell silent. The girl herself even told me that he stopped in the car so I know he's being honest about that.

 

He said then he dropped them off to Tim's house after bringing them to the house. He said he felt guilty and ashamed and knew it was wrong. He said a couple of days later when Tim came back over to brag about being high (looooooser) he went outside and asked him how old she was. This is true cause I remember that day and I remember I was suspicious about how my man quickly followed Tim outside when Tim was going back to his house.

 

He said he had been feeling guilty for days and said, "Man... how OLD is that girl?" and Tim laughed and said.... "14." My fiance said he said "What the * * * * man, don't bring that girl over to my house anymore! I don't want her around me." and told him it was " * * * *ed up" what he did with her. And Tim made him promise not to tell Mary about how he slept with her and in return he wouldn't say a thing to me about my fiance hitting on the girl. My fiance agreed and Tim said "Don't even worry man, it was all fun and games." Yeah, all fun in games. That shows what sort of character Tim really is, but I already knew that.

 

My fiance said the guilt was weighing on him and all the lies he had to tell to cover it up was also weighing heavy upon his shoulders. He said, yes that's why he shut the door in her face when she came around asking for cigarettes, because he didn't want any young girl thinking he wanted them. He said he knew he could do time JUST FOR talking to her like that, it's called indecent liberties. He said when she started acting flirty that one day and trying to talk to him he was even more worried, thinking that she thought he wanted her and was now trying to reciprocate. And he was ashamed, knowing he could get in serious legal trouble and didn't want nothing to do with that.

 

I asked him would he have done it though, if she had said yes, because of the peer pressure. At first he said yes... then he said he didnt know what he would have done. Then he said No, after thinking about it, saying he had worked so hard to get me and wouldn't want to risk it all if I found out about it. He even said, "where the hell would I have done stuff with her anyway... " He said the guilt would have been too much if he had done that. I was like, "Why did you say yes in the first place though?" He said "I don't know what I would have done.... until I saw her face. And I definitely would not once I saw her face and that she was younger than I thought. I'm not going to jail for * * * * like that." I said, "what if she was 18 or 19? and said yes? What would you have done? I mean you said yes you'd do it then you said you didn't know..." He said "If I was not with someone, and she was old enough... I would have done it if she had said yes. But I wasn't sitting there fantasizing about her or anything like that. I didn't want her. Yes I thought at a glance she was attractive but that was until I saw her face." and went on and on about how much he loved me and listed all the things he's done for me, that proves he does love me and so on and so on, and how * * * * like that would NEVER EVER happen again.

 

I don't know. I just don't know. Because he did find her attractive. What if he sees another girl, one of legal age, and has the opportunity to hit on her... and does so? Or was it really a one time mistake brought on by severe peer pressure and a need to be liked ? (I told him he needs counselling by the way... he's got some serious issues about his own self worth!) He said he wants stability and a family and wouldn't risk it all again. He made it clear he didn't even want to do that in the first place. But the fact that he did says something about his character (yes as it has been said, it's a weak character and needs to be built up. I think it has a lot to do with self esteem issues and so on.)

 

But he cried.. . and just kind of let it all out. The shame he felt, the fear he felt when he found out how old she was, the guilt he felt for it all, knowing it was wrong on more than one level (the fact that she was a kid and the fact that he had me..) and so on just flowed out. He said it felt good to finally just let it all out in the open... and I guess, guided by my good listening skills (I know I know, so modest huh) he just opened up more and went into detail about his childhood, how he was abused by his dad and how his dad would leave his family for years at a time, running off with other women and so on, before his mom finally got fed up with it and divorced him. I think his fear of abandonment and low self esteem all starts there, at that young and early age.... he definitely needs some counselling. It seems like his dad also had a hand in his present day submissiveness. The way he can't tell people no. The way he's afraid he'll offend them or not be liked by saying no. And the way his dad made him feel like he wasn't good enough... like he needed his approval.. that would have a lot to do with him needing to be liked, and to be loved. Cause he didn't have that growing up. (If anyone can tell, I really want to get into psychology.) He said he would witness his dad hitting on other women when he was a kid and his dad would bribe him with McDonalds to not say anything and he didn't understand stuff like that at an early age... and just all these other horrible details of his life. I guess it was like a sort of cathartis. He told me that no one's ever really made sense of his issues in a way that he could understand like I could, and said it was therapeutic for him to talk to me. He said he wants to keep talking to me about his problems because I guess no one's ever really listened to him like that before.

 

Okay, but going off track here kind of... but just thought all of that might give you all some sort of insight into my fiance.

 

But with this recent development in the story, what does everyone think now? Really, I still need advice and so on, I still just don't know....

[engagedkitty]

I write like, the longests posts ever.... sorry everyone. I hope it's not too boring, I hope no one will get fed up halfway through and quit reading... I really need your opinions.

[finewhine]

Are you really only twenty years old? Is your story true?

 

Thing is, I kept doubting the veracity of your story because it was so darn articulate. Smart, well-spoken people should not find themselves in such stupid situations.

 

If you really are an articulate twenty year old, get out get out get out! I don't care if your fiance thought this woman was 18 or 37. Why on EARTH would you settle for some cretinous lech who looks at girls and asks them to give him head? Who DOES this? This is retarded behavior, period. Your fiance is a few apples shy of a bushel. You, however, are articulate and thoughtful. You have no use for him. He is beneath you, plain and simple.

 

No matter how repentant he acts, no matter what sort of diamond lurks beneath his flamingly retarded exterior, leave him. LEAVE HIM.

 

I am twenty seven. I am as far away from being married as a girl can get. Do I care? Not a whit. Who says you have to get married at twenty? You're so freaking young! Use your time and intelligence wisely. Use it to advance your career or your schooling or your interests. Do NOT waste another minute trying to decipher the actions of this loser. You're so young, lady! So very young! The world is yours!

 

Look, I know how hard it is to leave someone you love. I dated an unemployed alcoholic with the stamina of a twelve year-old boy for two years when I was your age. He loved me, I loved him. I left him. Do I regret this? H-e-double-hockeysticks no. Other, better men have loved me. Other, better men will love you. Get out get out get out!!!

 

If you are, in fact, perpetuating a giant hoax, kudos! You're a very entertaining writer.

[BrokenWingedFaery]

"BrokenWingedFaery, I don't really know that she was molested, she was a willing participant in the sex thing with Tim. But she's so young and impressionable that she was easily manipulated- however many people in this area know about the girl, and know she's way more experienced than most girls her age. To put it bluntly, she's slept with a lot. I know my fiancee was HORRIBLY WRONG in what he did, but I would NEVER ever, think he would ever hurt his own child in that way. I've seen how he is with her- his daughter adores him more than anyone in this world. I must defend him on that one thing. But you're so right, it's not excusable to hit on young girls just to be a bad-***."

 

The law would beg to differ about her being molested. Even if she did consent to "the sex thing" with Tim, legally it's rape, among other things. When I was 14, I was much more experienced than other 14 year olds, because I was molested and subsequently became much easier prey for other child molesters. Your fiancee might not have hurt his kid yet, but it really is a matter of time, imo. Your fiancee is someone who I wouldn't want to be around and I sure as heck wouldn't allow any child to be around.

 

Think about what's actually happening here:

 

Your neighbor had SEX with a CHILD, possibly multiple times. Your fiancee asked this CHILD for ORAL SEX and possibly did more. These are ADULTS taking advantage of a very messed up little grrrl. My guess with her would be that she was abused and that's why she's allowing what she's allowing now. Don't blame the kid, she's only doing what the adults are asking her to do. Those adults include your fiancee. I wouldn't want to marry a man who asked a 14 year old to suck him off.

[Bingo72]

All i can say is that it sounds like you are going to keep analyzing this but you've got to realize that you'll never feel good about this no matter if you think you finally got the truth or not.

 

Because you think he's told you everything that you're not going to be spending your time with one eye on him just waiting for him to check out the next girl?

 

Imagine this, you are both 30 years old, you catch him looking at a hot teenager in the store, do you think the memory of this won't come back and bite you at that moment? Look how much time and energy you've put into this one incident and your not even guilty of anything. If you're like this now with him you will always be this way with him. Do you feel like having to 'watch after' him all the time? That would be crazy.

[Honey Pumpkin]

Engaged Kitty, you write the world's longest posts - I find it really difficult to read through them. Maybe that's just me, but I lose the thread of what's going on half way through. Just an observation to maybe slice out some of the microscopic detail, so you'll get more responses?

 

It struck me when reading this that you are writing in such depth because you are trying to convince yourself that it's okay. That your bloke made an honest mistake, and won't make it again, and thought she was older etc etc

 

My reactions are these, take them as you will:

 

i). The neighbours - bad news. These friendships are corrosive, and you're in a set of dynamics that I think is unpleasant. I think you need to ditch this set of friends.

 

ii). The girl - as I've said above, I am deeply troubled by her involvement in all this, and the way she has been treated by the four of you adult. That hasn't changed at all. But wake up and smell the coffee - he was prepared to sleep with the baby-sitter, if she'd been old enough - that's hardly a good prospect for your life together, is it? Let alone his fondness for young girls. I would have dumped someone for that alone.

 

iii). All the psychology stuff at the end and his damaged childhood - you don't (I presume) have any experience other than what you think are inate personal skills. I personally don't think this is something the two of you can work out by talking endlessly around the trees, I think he and you both need professional help. Him for his background and many issues, you for relationship counselling. If you decide to stay together. Which leads me to

 

iv). Hand on heart, if it were me I wouldn't risk it. I would be out of there, the story is too convoluted, there are too many red flags for me. His weakness, he's easily led by some dodgy characters, he hits on very young girls, the lying.

 

I'm sorry, only you can decide. For me, the whole thing is too painful and sordid

 

Good luck.