Gay marriage

[Pippin]

Ok, this could end up coming back to bite me...I'm not so sure I understand why people are against gay marriage. Obviously I support it, since I don't understand the opposing view. If anyone can give me a real reason that gay marriage should not be allowed, let me know. By real I mean: Don't use the bible to say it's wrong there are 6 times it shows homosexuals screwing up and I think it's 362 of heterosexuals screwing up.

[BellaDonna]

Ok, this could end up coming back to bite me...

 

Hopefully anyone who replies will be mature and respectful...but it could easily lead to a flame war- which is not allowed under the forum rules. If anyone can give me a real reason that gay marriage should not be allowed, let me know.

 

I can't help you there because I support gay marriage too.

 

Although people who do not support it are also entitled to their opinions, just as we are, and if the bible or their religion is grounds for their beliefs, you can't tell them to abandon that either.

 

 

If you are a supporter of gay marriage, my best advice would be to stick with like-minded people and not worry about what others think. Stand up for what you believe- and be an advocate- but don't bother arguing with people just for the sake of argument.

 

My own personal philosophy: I respect the religions and opinions of others, I just don't let them impose their beliefs on my own life. I hold the view that others can think whatever they want, and I don't care enough to let it affect me. That usually is the best way to handle something like this for me.

 

When you know you're not going to hear what you want to hear from certain people, it's not worth a debate in which you may get your feelings hurt, be discriminated against, or waste your energy on it.

 

BellaDonna

[Pippin]

I understand that it might end up as a flame war, I hope it won't go to that. And I agree, everyone IS entitled to his or her opinion. I just added in the part about the bible because that is the only argument I have really heard a lot of that actually has sustenance to it and it’s still just kind of a goofy reason to me. They are entitled to it, but to me it doesn’t justify anything. I am just curious about reasons people might have to be against it. I have been trying to at least see the other side of this argument for a long time and I still can’t come up with anything. Thank you for at least taking the time to read this BellaDonna.

[Kyoshiro Ogari]

I believe in marrying who you love. If it's the same sex, so be it.

[Managor]

Yep, the main people (in my opinion only) that disagree with same sex marriage are those who consider marriage a holy bond between two people of the opposite sex, as clearly stated in parts of the Bible (or alternative religious scriptures for other religions), though this doesn't cover everyone against gay marriage.

 

You can see a lot of views on homosexual marriage (and having children in such situations) here

 

Although I'm Athiest, I still think people are allowed to use their religion in their reasoning, and that is a "real" enough reason, even though I disagree with their reasoning more than I can describe in words.

 

Some countries have same sex civil unions (or similar), which I think is a nice way to resolve this issue, since it's not representing a holy bond between the two people, though many conservative religious people disagree with this idea too, for reasons I'm not quite sure of.

[Daddy Bear]

i personally believe that by refusing to recognize gay marriages we blur the line between church and state. some people are okay with that; i'm not.

 

i wonder what percentage of the people who do NOT believe in gay marriage are atheists. i have a feeling it's a pretty low number.

[UT]

Why would gay marriage not be allowed... I can actually not think of any reason.. good or bad... I believe that gay marriage should be allowed.

 

The only reason I could see an atherist having agains gay marriade wouldn't be just against gay marriage but all marriages and that would be the whole thought of it and the god issue.

 

Really. I Want to marry my boyfriend and I don't need gods blessing, only the blessing from the people that matter in my life.

 

I'm sorry we're not of much help. Most people arond here are for gay marriage

[Managor]

I certainly think same sex marriage (or unions) should be allowed, and it was a real pity for me when I heard a territory in Australia (since I live in Australia) had a new civil union act which was actually overturned by the national government as it was 'marriage in disguise'.

[novaseeker]

Ok, this could end up coming back to bite me...I'm not so sure I understand why people are against gay marriage.

 

There are a few reasons (let me state at the outset that I am very much pro gay marriage).

 

First, there is the religious reason: namely that the Bible (and other religions' key texts, such as the Qur'an) condemn homosexuality. "Liberal" Christians get around this by creative reading of the Biblical texts, but most rank and file Christians simply believe that homosexuality is sinful, and that while a certain degree of "tolerance" for homosexuals is needed in a civil society, that tolerance does not extend to "marriage", because their view of marriage comes, again, from the religious perspective.

 

Second, there is what I like to call NIMBYism ("Not In My Backyard"ism). That is to say, there is a significant group of people who may be moderate in religion and tolerant of gay people, but do not want a gay couple living next door to them in their white, middle-class, generally heterosexual suburb, raising children, attending PTA meetings and the like. In other words, there are a lot of folks who are more "tolerant" of gay people, provided that gay people stay concentrated in gay ghettos or in the inner cities in general, and the fear is that by allowing gay marriage, homosexuality becomes mainstream, gays begin to live in larger numbers where straight families are living and participating in what is now more or less exclusively heterosexual suburban life ... and a LOT of people do not want that. Tolerance, it seems, only goes so far for some.

 

Third, I think that there are a lot of people who are (understandably in my view) turned off by legitimizing what they see as fringe sexual behavior by gay people. In this respect, the gay community has not always been its own best friend. What I mean by this is that the general spectacle that one witnesses annually at events like the gay pride parades and the like only serves to underline in the straight world's mind that homosexual behaviors are extreme and fringe-like ... which legitimises their view that homosexuals are simply not like straight people, and should thereforeeee not be treated the same as straight people in terms of marriage and raising kids and the like. Again, people don't want many of the folks they see in Gay Pride parade pictures living next door, attending the PTA and supervising kids birthday parties in the neighborhood.

 

I think it's an ingrained issue. As far as I can tell, the people who are the loudest opponents tend to be religiously inspired people. But there are a lot of others who are not loud, but quietly oppose, for the other reasons I outline above. I think that gay marriage is most likely to be allowed in places where the political system is dominated by urban centers (because people who live there are more accustomed to living around gay people) than it is in places dominated politically by suburban areas, which are the home to millions of htereosexual couples who are trying to raise kids and are skeptical of gay people moving into the neighborhood.

[FoxLocke]

I agree with everything Novaseeker wrote.

 

While I believe the gay subculture has been very beneficial to gays and lesbians(due to letting the public know that we do exist), due to pervasive stereotypes(i.e. some of the spectacle at the Pride Parades...which religious zealots latch onto like rabid pitbulls) the mainstream culture refuses to empathize with gay men and lesbians.

 

They view everyone that isn't straight as deviant perverts, which simply isn't true.

 

If more gays and lesbians were open about their sexuality(and not merely the people who make a career out of being gay) minds would change. It took me coming out to my family to let them know, "Hey, this is what GAY really looks like. It isn't Rupaul or ' * * * * * Eye For The Straight Guy.' It is the everyday boy next door type too..."

 

But the loudest voice is the extreme religious fanatics.

 

My biggest obstacle in life, sans coming out, was breaking away from my religion. Tried being a liberal christian, but the mere fact that it is constantly reiterated that I'm going to rot in hell for being the way I was born turns me off. There are some qualities about myself I don't like but I sure don't hate myself enough to remain in the Christian religion...

 

As it is I believe, just like other disenfranchised groups, gay people will eventually earn the right to legalize their unions and live happily ever after.

 

Right now this political culture war is so weird and over the top. I guess this is the 1960's for our generation?

[pianoguy]

the mainstream culture refuses to empathize with gay men and lesbians.

 

I think that's very pessimisstic. In the 50's you could actually be arrested for homosexual sex, and psychologists considered homosexuality to be a mental disorder. Only fanatics still think this way, the majority of Americans don't view it as a disorder or a crime. We've made MAJOR progress.

 

And look at the generational views on this matter. Have you been to a middle school in the past year or so? It's just not an issue there anymore. Yes, kids have the f word and get teased mercilessly but it's not viewed as a "sin" or immoral, insofar as middle schoolers have morality. I'm talking about a real middle school, btw, not a Christian one.

 

As my friend Abbie so nicely said, "Once old people.... uh, stop voting, it won't be an issue anymore." Our gay children will only have minor inconveniences with the matter, and our gay grandchildren won't have any issues whatsoever with it and will have full rights as straight people. (of course, by then the icecaps will have flooded all the continents, but... yay for gay rights!!!)

 

We're not in the 1960's of gay rights- the 1960's were the 1960's of gay rights. The amazing generation that came before us demanded recognition as human beings and not animals. They had to live in almost daily violence from the majority, but they won for us limited respect and rights- the right to be treated less fairly than straight people, but still to be treated as people. It's up to us to finish that job.

 

The way to go about finishing that job is NOT through extravagant and loud gay events, as the generation before us did. That was necessary in those days, but it's not anymore, I don't think the older gay generation understands this. The way to finish the job is by being normal but open, being perfectly nice neighbors, teachers, doctors, etc, but to have same-sex partners and to be open about it. Not to rub it in people's faces, but to be clear about who we are.

 

Religion is a powerful force, but ultimately education, science, and social action wear it down. It has always adapted to the advances of the others and never been able to supress them, even when it once controlled the machinery of state.

 

The only way that there could conceivably be a setback would be for laws and amendments to be made specifically preventing gay marriage, as has happened in my state. These will eventually be repealed, but such things take a long time and slow things way down. It is crucial then that we try our hardest to prevent such laws from coming into effect.

[FoxLocke]

I think that's very pessimisstic. In the 50's you could actually be arrested for homosexual sex, and psychologists considered homosexuality to be a mental disorder. Only fanatics still think this way, the majority of Americans don't view it as a disorder or a crime. We've made MAJOR progress.

 

I'm not being pessimistic. I am being realistic. I don't come from a liberal part of America. I live in Texas. Homophobia is rampant to say the least.

I'll believe that the majority of America is open to gay men and lesbians when I see it happen in my everyday environment.

 

However, I do agree that if gay men and lesbians shuck the gay pride theatrics(which are fine in their place, like parties and etc)and simply live their lives openly and "normal" then that will inevitably change minds.

 

 

And look at the generational views on this matter. Have you been to a middle school in the past year or so? It's just not an issue there anymore. Yes, kids have the f word and get teased mercilessly but it's not viewed as a "sin" or immoral, insofar as middle schoolers have morality. I'm talking about a real middle school, btw, not a Christian one.

 

Again, I live in Texas(the buckle of the bible belt). If you are openly gay in Middle School here you might as well pin a bullseye on your chest.

True, Things have indeed progressed. But when an overwhelming percentage of the population thinks you are an abomination we still have a long way to go.

[northernlights]

"Once old people.... uh, stop voting, it won't be an issue anymore."

 

Oh, how I wish that were true. That would be beautiful. But I have friends my age who don't believe in gay marriage (for the most inane reasons, I might add) These are friends who attend an all women's college with a high gay population, and who define themselves as being "very liberal" and "open minded." Whenever I challenge them on "if you're so liberal and open-minded, why can't gay people marry?" though, we get into heated arguments and they use reasons which I find ridiculous. But they're set in their beliefs, and I can't convince them, so we just avoid that topic all together.

 

One of my most traditional, conservative friends is an atheist but doesn't believe in gay marriage because she thinks it will "encourage children to become homosexuals." Basically, she thinks that by advocating that it's okay for a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, to get married and start a family, it's telling children that it's okay to be gay, which is BAD because children will start exploring their sexuality by experimenting with people of the same sex, even if the kids aren't actually gay. Basically, she's worried that gay marriage will turn straight children gay. She doesn't believe that most of the world is actually gay, but she believes we're all just "experimenting" because it's okay. And to prove her point, she cites how there are more gay people today than there were in the past. (To which I responded...well, duh, that's because they're not as scared to come out of the closet today.)

 

So I guess there's one argument for being against gay marriage that was made by a non-Christian.

 

And as a disclaimer, my friend's words do not reflect my opinions at all. I cried (for joy ) when I saw all the happy newly weds on the day MA legalized gay marriage. I don't get why people can't just mind their own business. It's not like we want to marry THEM.

[novaseeker]

One of my most traditional, conservative friends is an atheist but doesn't believe in gay marriage because she thinks it will "encourage children to become homosexuals." Basically, she thinks that by advocating that it's okay for a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, to get married and start a family, it's telling children that it's okay to be gay, which is BAD

 

Indeed.

 

I see this as being the biggest non-religious obstacle: the notion that people do not want gay people to be allowed to be married because that implies that gay relationships are NORMAL AND OKAY ... and they don't want that, because they do not believe it themselves.

 

There's a lot of work to be done ... a lot of work.

[Deviant_Kate]

Some countries have same sex civil unions (or similar), which I think is a nice way to resolve this issue, since it's not representing a holy bond between the two people, though many conservative religious people disagree with this idea too, for reasons I'm not quite sure of.

 

I think civil unions are crap - saying that gay people aren't REAL people, so they don't deserve a real marriage. Legalizing same-sex marriage should have absolutely nothing to do with religion because of the whole separation of church and state thing. Churches shouldn't have to perform any marriage that their religion teaches them is wrong, but government entities SHOULD have to treat everyone equally.

 

Sorry if I come off as angry, but I'm incredibly passionate about this issue, as I am anytime someone tries to tell me that I don't deserve the same civil rights as everyone else. It really ticks me off that my idiotic irresponsible shallow siblings who only make bad choices are allowed to get married, and I (the only GROWN-UP adult of all my parents' children) am not.

 

In some states, a 12 year old girl or a 14 year old boy can marry any opposite-sex person if they have their parents' consent. If CHILDREN can get married, why cant homosexuals?

[Deviant_Kate]

To actually somewhat answer the intended question, I had to do a ton of research into why people oppose same-sex marriage, so I've got some websites I can give you. It's still crap reasoning if you ask me.

 

This one is strictly anti-gay. It's excerpts from Dr. James Dobson's book "Marriage Under Fire: Why We Must Win This Battle" - link removed

 

This one is by Scott Bidstrup, who is pro-gay marriage, but he goes into reasons why people are opposed - link removed

 

And this one is kind of funny and sarcastic, making fun of the reasons people give for banning gay marriage - link removed

 

Enjoy!

[FoxLocke]

Kate, I love your passion regarding the subject!

 

I agree with you 100%!!!

[Managor]

I pointed this out because a lot of religious folk are against gay marriage because the term marriage refers to a religious bond which is stated in the bible as between a man and woman. A civil union wouldn't make the two people any less real, it would acknowledge their connection, but it wouldn't impose on the views of the bible, which a lot of people hold hightly. I don't agree with this point of view but showing that this argument is justifyable, and to try and dimensionalise the against argument, even though I am very strongly pro-gay marriage.

[pianoguy]

Follow up to my last post...

 

The problems that we face now are not easy, but historically speaking, our generation enjoys more acceptance than at any other time in history (excepting the Greeks and other non-Christian cultures). This may be depressing to hear when you look at the people near you and see homophobia and hate, but it is true, ask a gay older person. My point is that I am absolutely convinced that with each succeeding generation it will be easier to be gay, and I find this encouraging and I hope that it would be encouraging to others. Polls show quite conclusively that the younger you are the more accepting you will be of homosexuality (not necessarily gay marriage). This is no fluke. And I see no reason why more accepting attitudes towards homosexuality will not eventually logically lead to more accepting attitudes towards gay marriage.

 

I completely agree that there is still a lot of work to be done, and while the force of history may be on our side, that does not give us any cause to be lax, in fact we need to be more vigilant than ever.

[Deviant_Kate]

I pointed this out because a lot of religious folk are against gay marriage because the term marriage refers to a religious bond which is stated in the bible as between a man and woman. A civil union wouldn't make the two people any less real, it would acknowledge their connection, but it wouldn't impose on the views of the bible, which a lot of people hold hightly. I don't agree with this point of view but showing that this argument is justifyable, and to try and dimensionalise the against argument, even though I am very strongly pro-gay marriage.

 

Even athiests can get married, so marriage, while it might be rooted in religion, is very much a legal issue in todays society, not a religious one. Like I said, I don't think churches should have to perform same-sex marriages if they're religiously opposed to it, but legal marriage should be available to all adults, gay or straight.

[Deviant_Kate]

Kate, I love your passion regarding the subject!

 

I agree with you 100%!!!

 

I KNEW I liked you!

[novaseeker]

Even athiests can get married, so marriage, while it might be rooted in religion, is very much a legal issue in todays society, not a religious one. Like I said, I don't think churches should have to perform same-sex marriages if they're religiously opposed to it, but legal marriage should be available to all adults, gay or straight.

 

Indeed, and this is the elephant on the table when it comes to the gay marriage discussion to begin with, namely: why is the religious definition of marriage at all relevant to the civil marriage statutes?

 

That's a question noone really seems to want to address in the anti-gay-marriage camp.