Being selfish

[LifeArtist]

I've posted bits and pieces of my story on other threads, but I've decided to tell my story more completely in this one. I'm not particularly looking for advice. Rather I'm posting this in the spirit of sharing. This site is called "eNotAlone" and I feel less alone by sharing with others.

 

I've decided to file for divorce after 20 yr of marriage. I will wait until after the holidays, schedule a first consultation with my lawyer, and then decide when to talk to my wife.

 

We have two teenage children -- a boy who is a junior in high school and an eigth grade girl.

 

Although my wife has threatened to leave me in times of anger, I don't think she will allow herself to be the one to end the marriage. We may be both miserable, but if anyone is going to take this step it will have to be me.

 

It has taken me quite a while to get to this point. Although I have contemplated divorce many times over the years, I always thought it would be best for the kids and for me as a father to make a go of the marriage. I love the fact that I have been able to live in the same house as them for all these years.

 

Perhaps it is a midlife crisis for me, but my questioning has been going on for several years and has only seemed to intensify. I finally feel that it is time to choose happiness for myself (and quite possibly for my wife as well). I feel that it is up to me to decide what I want the rest of my life to be like.

 

I won't go into details on how I have come to this decision in this post. A superficial answer is that we have been growing apart. I don't have feelings of love for her anymore, nor does she seem to have them for me. We "love" each other, but we don't seem to like each other much. There seems to be an ongoing war between us -- sometimes cold, sometimes hot.

 

It feels like I have a roommate who happens to sleep in the same bed and who really doesn't seem to like me much. We are easily irritated with each other and take verbal potshots at the other.

 

My son pretty much does his own thing as much as possible, but our daughter hangs out with us quite a bit. She makes comments about how we are not very nice to each other and don't seem to love each other. Neither of us makes much effort to disagree.

 

I have to run now, but will probably come back later and post some more.

[LifeArtist]

It's going to be interesting making the choice to live the life of a bachelor again. Before I started dating my wife, I was lonely. I wanted a partner, a companion, someone to share a life together, to raise a family with.

 

I ignored/minimized our differences. I figured I could adapt myself to create marital harmony. And I did! But a few years ago I began to question whether I was happy with who I had become. Was being a good father, husband, and worker enough for me?

 

As I questioned my roles and choices, I began to explore changes. I found my wife was pretty much UNsupportive, probably understandably so. The status quo was more to her liking than it was to mine.

 

This is SO hard! Who KNOWS who they really are in their twenties? Who they might want to become, particularly 20 years down the road? How can a couple KNOW that they will be compatible "till death do you part"? What if the marriage is limiting the personal growth and development of one or both partners? Is that enough to divorce over, particularly if children are involved?

 

My decision is ultimately selfish. I am doing what I think is best FOR ME. Is it best for my wife? my daughter? I don't know. What if it isn't the best thing for them? Should I deny my wants in service of theirs?

 

Lot's of questions for me to ponder. Like I said before, no need to render advice. But feel free to share your thoughts and your own experiences.

[DN]

 

 

I urge you to do as much research as possible on the effect of divorce on the children of the marriage. Unless you or your wife are physically or emotionally abusive then you may want to consider whether you are indeed being too selfish in putting your own well-being before that of your children.

[Miss M]

And there is quite a few who would argue the other side, saying that staying in a bad marriage just for the sake of the kids is harming them. You and your wife may be physically with each other, but you are both modeling a failed/broken marriage for your kids. They are witnessing and learning and absorbing your coolness and incompatibilities, and that's not emotionally healthy for them. Your daughter is already mentioning it, but your son is also already affected by it too, whether he says anything or not. Even infants can feel it and respond to it.

[DN]

Some more information that may help you in your decision is here:

 

 

 

This part is of interest

 

The results of a survey based on pooled data from 80,000 adults suggest that parental divorce has an adverse effect on children's lives Compared with those raised in intact two-parent families, adults who experienced a parental divorce had lower psychological well-being, more behavioural problems, less education, lower job status, a lower standard of living, lower marital satisfaction, a heightened risk of divorce, a heightened risk of being a single parent, and poorer physical health.

 

However, there is some other evidence quoted that puts that part into perspective.

[novaseeker]

The problem I have with that kind of study is that it doesn't capture the real issue. In other words, in order to draw the conclusion that people are better off staying together, you would have to have a "control group" of bad, but intact, marriages to compare the divorced situations with. In other words, the study is comparing people who didnt have such a bad situation and chose to stay together with those who decided to get divorced. The control group you need is a group that feels the marriage is pretty bad and would have gotten divorced, but solely for purposes of the study, is forced to stay together: then compare that group with the divorced group. Otherwise the results of the study are of highly questionable value, at best, in my opinion.

[DN]

That's somewhat true - there is no 'right' way. But for a generation people have been told almost automatically that it is better for the children to divorce if the marriage is in trouble and these studies merely show that that is not necessarily true and that children are not automatically better off if their children divorce. The fact is that they are adversely affected in either case.

 

But sometimes I think that trying to work on a marriage because you have kids that would be adversely affected can be beneficial - sometimes for your own happiness as well.

 

Divorce is not always the key to happiness for the couple involved either.

 

Each case is very different and there is no generally 'right' answer.

[novaseeker]

That's somewhat true - there is no 'right' way. But for a generation people have been told almost automatically that it is better for the children to divorce if the marriage is in trouble and these studies merely show that that is not necessarily true and that children are not automatically better off if their children divorce. The fact is that they are adversely affected in either case.

 

But sometimes I think that trying to work on a marriage because you have kids that would be adversely affected can be beneficial - sometimes for your own happiness as well.

 

Divorce is not always the key to happiness for the couple involved either.

 

Each case is very different and there is no generally 'right' answer.

 

Oh I agree 100%.

 

My perspective is that if you have kids you should try everything under the sun to make it work, turn over every stone, etc. Don't leave flippantly. But if it doesnt work I don't believe a cold, loveless marriage, even if their isnt any abuse involved, is healthy for the kids ... just my own opinion.

[LifeArtist]

Thanks for the ideas. I tend to agree that every case is unique and decisions must be made based on the particulars of the situation.

 

Although I would predict that the path I am on will end up in divorce, I will try to be as open as possible when I talk to my wife. If I get the sense that she sincerely wants to save the marriage by working on it, I cannot imagine not giving it a shot.

 

She has never been comfortable with counseling or with verbalizing her feelings. The emotion that she is best at expressing is anger. She acknowledges that she has "issues" (who doesn't?), but seems unwilling to do what is necessary to address them.

 

Certainly I am no saint. I just really question whether I will be satisfied with the restrictions on my freedom that I feel right now. Maybe we can discuss my feelings in counseling and maybe it will help, but I'm pretty pessimistic at this point.

 

As for whether it would be worse for our kids to live in a household with a crappy marriage versus a divorce situation, the point is moot to me. I'm not going to accept the crappy marriage option any longer. It will either be divorce or an improved marriage.

 

I'll try to let you all know what happens.

[Miss M]

Here's another thought... and comes courtesy of Dr. Phil...

 

One of the best ways to take good care of your kids is to take good care of yourself. Also, when in an airplane, the flight attendant instructs us that in an emergency, a parent should put the oxygen mask on his/her face first, and then on the child. That's totally backward and irrational to my first gut instincts to protect my child. But when given a moment to consider it, it's the only thing that makes sense. Likewise, you are a much better parent to your children when you take proper care of your own emotional needs. Self-sacrifice for the sake of the children is admirable, even instinctive, but there's a limit to how far to go with that before it becomes harmful rather than helpful.

 

You've got a tough road ahead. I wish you all the best, and for all your loved ones as well.

[Shadows Light]

LifeArtist...

 

Have you thought about seeking "couples counseling"... finding a good therapist to see if you can work out your differences. Yes, people change. In your 20's you were a different person. As you had children your focus changes. You are both concentrating on creating a HOME, working and raising the children. It seems like a never ending cycle. And you will "both" lose your identity to it. Your expectations of where you thought you'd be or what your life would be like... is vastly different from the reality.

 

You've become conscience of it again. Your identity. And who knows, she may also become conscience and is struggling internally with the same issues.. and asking herself WHAT's to be done.

 

You snip at each other. You argue. You carry on a silent war. Everyone can see it. But neither of you have sat down and said.."WE HAVE A PROBLEM" and "WE" need to do something about it. Obviously, you can't figure your way out of it on your own. Or you would have done so. So, whats keeping you from seeking proffessional help and exploring that option???

 

No... having the children witness a loveless, cold, marriage is NOT a healthy experience. It teaches kids that this is what LOVE is supposed to be about. However, teaching the problem solving skills, teaching them to be proactive and to work at something... that is invaluable.

 

Like it or not. You will be with your wife in a relationship for many years to come. You can divorce on paper and legally... but if you have children, you will "always" have a connection. So it behoove you to try to find a solution to "BOTH" your problems. And if NOT... to try to amicably figure out how you are going to OPERATE and but what RULES if a split occurs. The children do NOT need to witness a loveless cold marriage, but neither do they need to be caught up in a spiteful, nasty divorce.

 

Dr. Phil... wrote a book.. is pretty good. RELATIONSHIP RESCUE. Give yourself time to think about "all" of your options and explore the possibilities. Keep yourself busy in the mean time. Try to find a new hobby or something to give your MIND a break from constantly thinking about this. You need away time to get perspective.

[hardcharger]

I hear ya bro. Same situation. My wife has a terrible problem with anger/rage and yesterday it surfaced again, simply because I had tried to help her by tidying up the xmas mess, and moved a box HER receipts to the garage, easily found. But not before she went bizerk, physically grabbed me and held me hard, pulling me to the lawyer, etc.

 

What is sad in my case is that I think we are compatable enough. She has this overwhelming "female" feeling that I don't love her, and when I try to, she doesn't ~know how to accept it.

 

So what do I do, 19 yrs in. One kid going to college and another frosh in HS. Great kids. I live in a nice house but on a very special one of a kind property that is totally me, has thousands of hours of my blood and sweat in it. I can't leave. She would leave, but after the kids are gone, 4 long years.

 

I don't want a divorce, I don't believe it is the best thing. I wished she could get her act together better, then we could go on and live a more normal life. I DONT KNOW that life would be necessarily better on the other side of fence. Financial implications, of course. There goes all that total stability which we have. No real cares. It's a difficult choice at this point. I'm going to read those links on divorce given above, that is how I always felt. I'm so happy my parents stuck together through their rough times, what a nice xmas we had, everyone there. What a feeling. It means alot.

[LifeArtist]

I do think counseling is worth a shot; however, I don't see it happening if she does not want it. I've heard of "divorce counseling" and how it might facilitate a positive post-divorce relationship. We may start with "couples/marriage counseling" and watch it morph into divorce counseling if the situation is as dismal as I perceive it.

 

I'm an idealist at heart. I grew up seeing my father dominate my mother with her willingly going along. If they ever considered divorce, they never told me. But I was angry at what I saw -- at him for treating my mother the way he did and at her for putting up with it.

 

My ideal for a marriage/partnership was a team -- two equals who worked togther, supporting each other, the whole greater than the sum of the parts. I thought if I married a strong woman I would avoid the trap of making my partner less than she could be.

 

Instead, I fell into a completely unexpected trap -- my wife is the domineering partner in our marriage and I am the submissive one. And I'm tired of it. I feel that same anger that I once felt at my mother, but now direct it at myself. Why do I put up with that kind of treatment?

 

My self-loathing has translated into loathing of my wife. Even though I have facilitated her behavior by going along with it and allowing her to have her way, I AM SICK OF IT!

 

She uses her anger and her tongue as weapons. Frankly, I'm afraid of her. I don't take criticism well. At this point, I don't WANT to talk to her about it. I know I have to, but I dread it.

 

So "the talk" is a good idea. Counseling is a good idea. Perhaps a trial separation is a good idea before divorce. But I need to become an equal in this marriage before I can make it work. How often does a dominant partner willingly give up some of their power?

[Miss M]

So "the talk" is a good idea. Counseling is a good idea. Perhaps a trial separation is a good idea before divorce. But I need to become an equal in this marriage before I can make it work. How often does a dominant partner willingly give up some of their power?

This is a really good question. And really, the only answer still seems to be counseling. I also don't think dominant people will willingly give up power very easily. In fact, that's often why they are so opposed to counseling, because it means basically that their "power" will be handed over (in a sense) to a type of mediator. It means she will have to relinquish what she knows and allow someone else in to tell her something new. That's a very scary thing to a person whose used to being in power. And the "new" thing might be that she will have to [gulp] give up some power to [gulp] you. It just depends on whether she feels able to do that at a core level. Some people aren't ever able to get to that point. You know best if she's one of those. Have you openly talked to her yet about going to counseling together?

[hardcharger]

re: watching parents.

 

Yes, I have watched the opposite situation, a domineering mother who has abused my father all along, and it is only worse now that he has suffered stroke and is aging.(10 yrs older). She NEVER seems to see that their might be another side to it than hers. I am glad they stayed together, what a nice xmas we had, 3 brothers and wifes, 6 smart grandkids, and my parents, all intact. I thank my father for suffering! But, I don't know if I could have done it.

 

I suffer abuse, thank god it is not daily and neither one of us is domineering. She lets me do my own thing. My wife has a terrible temper that the holidays and ailing father has brought out. One thing I did is start a diary of her rages and that consoles me, that her behavior is not my fault and I see no way to avoid the little situations that cause a complete blowup. Luckily, they are periodic, we make up nice. I think counseling is a good idea, I am going to suggest it for me and my wife. There are resources out there, and experienced professionals, for people who can admit they need to and want to change. Trouble is, many people just can't admit to their wrongdoing and won't allow themselves to see another point of view.

 

Don't forget, opposites attract! Sometimes these situations are our destiny because of our personalities.

[LifeArtist]

--SNIP-- Have you openly talked to her yet about going to counseling together?

 

No, that's part of "the talk".

 

I'm starting to realize that it isn't so much about her changing -- it's about our relationship changing. If I change my behavior in relationship to her, then our relationship will be different and it will be up to her how she will change, if at all.

 

Suggesting relationship counseling shows that I'm not just going to throw away 20 yrs of marriage without trying to improve it into something I can live with. And I also see how counseling will probably help me, even if she refuses. I actually doubt that she will refuse, but I don't think it will be easy for her (counseling).

 

I need to be able to communicate better and learn to deal with my feelings more constructively. Defensiveness, withdrawal, and passive aggressive behavior are not setting a very good example for my children.

 

I don't think I can put off the counseling talk for much longer. She wants to make a significant investment with her brother and neice in a vacation home. I'm saying no, but I'm not telling her why. I think that is the last thing we should do right before going through a divorce!

 

It may turn out that this weekend is the right time. I don't think I'll bring up the D word in the conversation, but I need to tell her that I'm not happy with our relationship and that I feel we need to do some couples counseling.

 

Wish me luck! I'll let you all know how it goes.

[LifeArtist]

re: watching parents.

 

Yes, I have watched the opposite situation, a domineering mother who has abused my father all along, and it is only worse now that he has suffered stroke and is aging.(10 yrs older). She NEVER seems to see that their might be another side to it than hers. I am glad they stayed together, what a nice xmas we had, 3 brothers and wifes, 6 smart grandkids, and my parents, all intact. I thank my father for suffering! But, I don't know if I could have done it.

 

--SNIP--

 

Don't forget, opposites attract! Sometimes these situations are our destiny because of our personalities.

 

Hardcharger:

 

That sounds exactly like my relationship! And a lot like the relationship my in laws had. My wife has a lot of anger towards her mother and misses her father so much. I don't really know how her father did it all those years, but it seems that his friends, outside activities, and drinking helped. Ironically, my wife's greatest fear is that she is turning into her mother!

 

That's probably my most effective tact to take -- I refuse to allow our relationship to be like that of her parents. And I really don't think we can pull it off without outside help.

 

I really appreciate the wisdom and sharing on this list. I think there are a lot of parallels between some of our situations.

[Miss M]

Suggesting relationship counseling shows that I'm not just going to throw away 20 yrs of marriage without trying to improve it into something I can live with. And I also see how counseling will probably help me, even if she refuses. I actually doubt that she will refuse, but I don't think it will be easy for her (counseling).

If she's willing to give it a shot, then definitely counseling offers you a chance to save your marriage. Don't give up until you've exhausted all options, especially since you think she won't refuse to go to counseling with you.

 

I need to be able to communicate better and learn to deal with my feelings more constructively. Defensiveness, withdrawal, and passive aggressive behavior are not setting a very good example for my children.

You might already know this, but passive-aggressive behavior is a form of power, of dominance. When you get to counseling don't be surprised if it's YOU who has to give up some of the power. Or maybe the different ways in which you two fight to maintain power will be explored, revealed, and re-negotiated.

 

Best wishes and good luck!

[LifeArtist]

If she's willing to give it a shot, then definitely counseling offers you a chance to save your marriage. Don't give up until you've exhausted all options, especially since you think she won't refuse to go to counseling with you.

 

You might already know this, but passive-aggressive behavior is a form of power, of dominance. When you get to counseling don't be surprised if it's YOU who has to give up some of the power. Or maybe the different ways in which you two fight to maintain power will be explored, revealed, and re-negotiated.

 

Best wishes and good luck!

 

Thanks!

 

I do realize that for our relationship to be what I want it to be, I must focus on what I can change about myself and my behavior. We talked about counseling and she was resistant, as I expected. But I was firm and said it was what I needed to save our relationship. I said if we went through a divorce without trying couples counseling that it was likely that one or both of us would always wonder, "What if ... ?"

 

So; she says she's willing to give it a shot. Hooray!

[brando]

life artist,

 

i wish u all the best in your efforts to get your marriage back on track. I am recently divorced, and my ex wanted it, refused counselling and was unwilling to put her best foot forward.

 

In the end i can only say we did the best we were able to at the time with the skills we had. I still love her, still stay in touch with her now and then, but it was a difficult time for me. She had two daughter from a previous relationship and i miss them very much as well.

 

I guess in the end we all need to do what is best for us. A year ago i would have been advising u against a divorce, today i say you need to make a decision in your own best interest.

 

My only suggestion based on my experience is one u seem to have already done, talk to her about it and everything. Before making a decision, before talking to a lawyer. And think of how u would feel of another man moving in with your ex wife and having a part in raising your children.

 

i wish u the best and remember, everything works out in the end.

 

be well,

brando