Ethology

[Iori_Yagami]

I wonder if there is anyone, who is an expert, or at least involved in a science called 'ethology'?

 

It is very very useful in my opinion. It tries nad succeds to explain our hidden motives by viewing a man as a biological type. Homo sapiens, that is.

So, there are times when we can't explain something done purely 'just tha way'. We fail to explain, or more often invent a good but untrue explnation. The real thing is we forget about wea ARE animals, wearing a thin 'sphere' of culture and intellect, which governs instincts.

 

Some people, namely so-called BULLIES are he ones, that have very little intellect and compassion, purely human qualities. But their life spring is strong and undying. It is beacuse of instincts. They usually accomplish more than simple good-natured, well-behaved people.

 

The utter unfairness (nature IS unfair - tha is a fact) of this situation can be fixed... with time and effort.

 

Why do girls despise so-called good guys? It is instint htat tells her: "He is weak, teethless amoeba. He can't live, fight, and such. Offsprings from him will be weak. Avoid him at any cost" If the girl is well-controlled by her brain, she CAN fight this underconscience, reasoning about good behaviour, kindness, hard-working. If not, she just FALLS FOR the alpha-man, who's actually a jerk, but is strong, and sure that he can get anything he wants.

 

Did you know that some animal species are that 8% of males make offsprings with 88% of females? It means that the vast majority of males is left withou possibility to ever involve into contact with a female species. Only the alphas can afford it, and do it a lot.

 

The situation with people is similar. We see poor guys who are nearing their 30's, and still have no g/f. And there are so-called 'skirt hunters' who's 'mission' is to hook up with every attractive female they encounter.

Almost everything is explained by ethology. It is far deeper and closer to physical form than weak and self-praising psuchology. (Don't get me wrong - psychology is useful, but it is weak with roots of behavior, strong only with describing effects on the very top of human behavior model).

[Tried]

Hi Iori,

I am no expert but I LOVE ethology, i fell in love with it when i was 15 after reading the book "Manwatching" by Desmond Morris. Ironically i think it is one of the most applicable feilds of science since it is about experimental determination of human behavior and its causes, but at the same time one of the areas that has yet to be accepted in the public domain. Despite the fact that it is based on observational data and that evolutionary theory fits right into it, almsot like saying that is WHY we couldnt explain it before, and that is WHY we came up with that explanation. However, the single most important answer that ethology has provided with us is that the reasons for human behaviour is a lot more complicated then we think, people are always very skeptical about lumping human behavior into some instinct or another, but they usually just end up on the other extreme, saying that we can never understand it. For example like residue left over from when man was more ignorant and we attributed everything to God, many still want to believe that some things can never be understood simply because it is what their beliefs tell them to do. Realistically it makes no sense to argue that we behave one way because of instinct because you can just say that God made us have that instinct. But people dont like the way that the explanation feels so they decide that it goes agaisnt god. Ethology is not an absolute thing but rather points to likely causes, and almost always there is more then one answer for every question. Since we are trying to answer questions using results and are not able to see what path was actually taken on the road to human behavior, we have to assume that it could be one the other or what is usually the answer a combonation of all of those paths. However its results can be misleading, because we can always only look at one fragment of behavior at a time. For example yes what you define as a nice guy finds it harder to get girls, so bullies get the girls right? Well lets think about why then people are nice, why they are altruistic. In Manwatching, Desmond Morris suggests that in the early world man lived in small tribes where everyone around him had a similar genetic code, thus helping those around you would help carry on your genetic code so the strains of humans who felt more altruistic and worked together survived over others. But then as humans gained dominance, populations exploded and all of a sudden in a big city you are surrounded by people that have very different genetic codes, but there is no reason for the instinct of altruism to go away because the instinct isnt literally aware of the other persons genetic code beyond how aware you are of if someone is a brother or sister, we end up still helping anyway. ETC ETC So it would seem the only difference between a nice guy and a mean guy is that either the mean guy treats himself just as he treats others, or a mean guy just has a weaker sense of genetic altruism, since there are different levels of this one can assume that there are many causes for these differences and they are more then just genetic. The environment that we grow up in, the influence of other people, etc. So in the end instincts are made up from a lot more things then we think, dont think that instincts are expressed the same way for every person, general trends exist, but the definitions for every instinct are blurry indeed. The path from feelings to ideas is so complex and that is why it leads to different outcomes.

[I_love_rain_hugs_and_you]

I have never been into "ethology" but I believe that your ideas about "nice guys" and "jerks" are simply not true. The fact that "nice guys" exist proves that being nice to a girl is a good mating strategy. If it weren't, then the genes that make guys nice to girls would not be passed down, and all the world would be filled with jerks, and the nice guys would stop existing. But that has not happened. Quite the opposite, nice guys keep being born, so that proves that being a nice guy is a good mating strategy, in other words a good way to get a girl to sleep with you.

 

Girls want love and commitment. All guys who want a girlfriend will have to provide these things.

[Dre_7]

I think the word nice guy is used all too arbitrarily. What is a "nice guy?" When the term is thrown around in the realm of dating, it means a guy who expresses his feelings too quickly, gives too much to the girl too quickly, and is afraid to express a difference of opinion with the opposite sex. That's the definition of the nice guy that girls wouldn't want, and if "nice girls" with these same annoyances existed, guys wouldn't want that either. It's a matter of being too clingy and needy, too fast.

 

And at the other end of the continuum, there are "jerks," who supposedly don't shower the girl with attention, are in it for what they can get, and are generally inconsiderate. I think that anyone who falls into either of these extremes needs psychiatric help, because they're not doing too much good for their social lives, whether it be with family, friends, relationships. As such, both terms should be throw out the window.

 

My point is that, along the lines of what rain_and_hugs said, guys have to be seemingly indifferent in their pursuit. The keyword is "seemingly,"the minute you start spilling your heart out about your strong feelings, you kill all sense of attraction, or any possibility of it. But at the same time, you HAVE to show that you are capable of listening, and taking care of the girl. I think the best way is to vary your approach, maybe one day tease her playfully, but if she ever wants to talk, be the listener. Girls and guys need to be multi-faceted, both to maintain the attraction, as well as maintain the relationship itself.

 

I disagree with the notion of ethology. While we are "animals,"We have highly specialized brain functions, physical capabilities, a full spectrum of emotions, the ability to imagine and create. Hence, describing human attraction in terms of ethology is to belittle the power of love and attraction. Attraction is rooted in chemicals and the brain, but there is an even more important component which is the way we can grow to nurture those around us.

[JRM]

What he meant by "nice guys" and '"jerks", I_love_rain_hugs_and_you, is that "nice guys", ie guys who are needy, timid, and don't persist after what they want don't get women very easily. The thing about "jerks" that remains engaging to women is that they are strong, persistent, and take what they want.

 

Of course getting girlfriend doesn't mean being a jerk and bullying people, but being too nice and sensitive isn't appealing either. One should have have a mix of love, commitment, persistancy, and strength. I think the word is passion.

[Iori_Yagami]

Well, I didn't even think, that people are so intrested in this all, but still I must admit, there is a lot to study.

 

There are countless things that I did not mention. You actually can find them in relevant studies of scientists, if you want. It is really a great area.

 

Tried, your reply was excellent.

I have just to add some points.

 

Altruism is not a very best thing to an individual organism.

What is altruism, really? From biological point of view, it is the ability to victimize your own life for the other. Mothers of their kids often risk with themselves to save their little offsprings. Weaker animals do it, to provide safety to whole group.

In animal world, there are alphas, betas, ... omegas. They have different roles, different STATUSES. Alpha is arrogant, strong, with finest genes in him. Every female would prefer an alpha to make a better and stronger offspring. Actually, as I said, only very little % of males ever participate in reproduction (~10%). Why is that? Simple, a contact for a female is very rare - she has long period of having to carry developing offspring, then raising it until it gets able to feed himself. thereforeeee, a female is EXCEPTIONALLY VALUABLE to the species. For the male, it is different story. His reproductive capabilities are virtually neverending and intensive. So, a single male is not very valuable, because ONE male can participate in reproduction with MANY females.

(there are actually no real families in the animal world - it is unique to a human. Family is a genius creation of human race.)

To be able to fight others, he HAS to be arrogant, bully type. A female easily recognises an alpha by his 'bullying' behaviour pattern. She'd refuse a weak male, but 'engage with pleasure' with an alpha.

So you ask me, why altruism???

Altruism is a charecterizing treat of weaker, non-reproducing working males. They have to provide their lives to support other, stronger and healthier individuals. That is their role.

 

Well, a human is a weird creation. It is an animal, but a developed one. Always remember, the period of civilized and cultural life of humans, counting pre-ancient times, is so minute comparing to the length of humans species being developed with nature.

During such a short period we could have changed our lives drastically, but we couldn't chase away INSTINCTIVE PROGRAMS built-in in our brain, which are simple and woking well for animals, but are a real pain for normal civilized, cultural, religious, thinking, creative, ... beings.

 

I fully agree that being 'nice' is good, but people don't always think. They sometimes just react.

 

And now a question - what makes you do something when you don't think? You say - 'nothing. I've simple done this. I just wanted that way.'

But nothing happens simply that way out of clear sky. NEVER.

Now the answer - it is our instinctive program, which is strong and reliable, yet so too simple to help us in our complicated life situations.

 

If interest remains, I'll continue later, or perhaps give a link to scientist's page (if it's permitted here).