What’s next?

[Whirling D]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Sorry if you mentioned but -what is her experience dating men who have children? 

I don’t believe she has ever been around kids that much.
 

And for others… I use the phrase, “talk her down off the ledge”, rather tongue in cheek.  If I looked at it more closely, I do believe she was out on the edge last night. That doesn’t mean I knocked out on the edge a lot. I probably was last night as well. It wasn’t meant is any form of disrespect. Just observation.
 

She was extremely struggling with something that seemed to be traveling her. We talked about it, and I try to do what I could to offer, encouragement and explanations. Maybe too much. I felt like I was groveling at some points. That’s not where I wanna be.

[rainbowsandroses]

7 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

“Unless you kick me out” was meant as a joke. That was all.

Would there be "wink wink" or smiley after it to indicate it was meant as a joke?

If not don't assume she will know it's a "joke," it sounds angry and passive aggressive.

[rainbowsandroses]

6 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Well, can I be disillusioned still love her at the same time

The way you depict her, it sounds like much more than mere disillusionment Whirl.

I agree with everything Wiseman2 has said. 

[Type O Negative]

If couples broke up every time there was an argument or one took frustration with something which isn't the other's fault out on the other..there'd be no couples left.  Compatible couples don't argue a lot however, and not on fundamental issues, and when they do the aim is not to prove who was right and who was wrong but to find a solution, have a kiss and a cuddle and forget all about it. 

D,

I'd forget about trying to establish who's in the wrong, why and how,  and if you really want this thing between you to continue, text her like I said in my previous post. You barely know each other. You're both 61 and set in your ways. These things will happen.

[Jaunty]

On 7/17/2023 at 5:16 PM, Whirling D said:

I’m not sure where you are coming up with that, bat.  What exactly is it that you are hearing me say that bashes people with professions or money? 

 Many times over these extravaganzas of yours, you've referred to her as "elitist," belittled her penchant for cleanliness and "nice things," downgraded the work and commitment required for her to attain her professional status, etc.  Read back.  

[Whirling D]

35 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

Videos of the two of you? Or videos from relationship experts on the internet?

I feel it’s worth pointing out, given your posting history here, that you have a tendency to see conflict as a sign of compatibility—a glimpse into the “capacity to fit like a glove.” But what you are describing right now is a glove that is not fitting very well, after being worn for a very short period, and as a result both of you are getting frostbite. In other words, that “capacity to fit like a glove” might be something in your imagination, rather than reality. 

Anyhow, while her reaction strikes me as a bit intense, I can’t help but view it in part through the lens of your own intensity and propensity for dramatics. As you said yourself, you have already dangled the “this won’t work” carrot in front of her eyes on multiple occasions. I understand that in comparison you see your reactions as somehow softer and more rational than her’s—as you have with others—but it is worth remembering the old adage of giveth only what you can taketh. 

Lastly, I agree with Wise and Type O that if you’re going to text her edit out the passive aggressive stuff first. 
 

 

I agree with you for most of this… But the carrot that I have been dangling, has been pretty much an offering to her, and an opportunity, if not a nudge, to let me go if she thinks these things are going to be big deals.  I would almost rather have her put me out of my misery then to have us both keep trying hard to make it work, if it is only going to fail in the long run.
 

I thought about saying that to her recently… “Doctor lady, if you really are struggling with all of these things that we have talked about, then, perhaps I should urge you to let me go, so I can go find someone who won’t have these red flags”.  Perhaps it could be me that does the letting go, but I think I know better. I think she’s worth it, and I don’t think she wants me to let her go.

I’m not sure letting go is right thing to do, though, because getting to know each other is hard. Especially to people that are so painfully afraid of getting hurt. I think that’s what’s happening with her, but I can’t speak for her.

[bluecastle]

1 minute ago, Whirling D said:

But the carrot that I have been dangling, has been pretty much an offering to her, and an opportunity, if not a nudge, to let me go if she thinks these things are going to be big deals.

There is always this “but,” you see? Where she was hostile and unhinged and manipulative, you were simply presenting a gentle “offering.” Not stoking drama, not reacting emotionally, but just “nudging” her in comparison to the way she bulldozes you. 

My point here is not to tsk-tsk you while giving her a hall pass. It’s to say that the way you perceive things, be it as an offering or a joke, may not always land as intended. And of course a big part of compatibility is being able to dance, however one dances, without stepping on another toes too much as they dance.

 

 

[bluecastle]

15 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I thought about saying that to her recently… “Doctor lady, if you really are struggling with all of these things that we have talked about, then, perhaps I should urge you to let me go, so I can go find someone who won’t have these red flags”.

As for this, no. 

This is literally the definition of drama, and the subtext of it is total disrespect and radioactive levels of fear. Disrespect because, in essence, you are saying, "Dr. Lady, I know your feelings and needs more than you do, so please act on them." You are also saying, "Dr. Lady, I am miserable but too scared to end things, so please do it for me so I can find someone better than you." 

This is the stuff that turns people's brains inside out—or, from your perspective, makes them appear to be on a ledge.

It's all actually simple. If you want to spend time with someone, and remain committed to that, regardless of whatever hurdles or hardships, you talk that talk and walk the walk. If x, y, and z leads you to no longer want to walk that walk you man up and say, "I think you're great, but I have realized this isn't working out for me and am ending it." 

[Whirling D]

22 minutes ago, Jaunty said:

 Many times over these extravaganzas of yours, you've referred to her as "elitist," belittled her penchant for cleanliness and "nice things," downgraded the work and commitment required for her to attain her professional status, etc.  Read back.  

Well, it’s not like I’m standing here pointing a finger at her, calling her useless and nasty. We all have our characteristics that are good and not so good.
 

Just to even the playing field, here are some of mine… I’m hugely reactionary. I sometimes tend to look at things from a very negative perspective. Sometimes. Every once in a while, I can get angry and snap at someone. As I’ve gotten older, there are sometimes that I may be a little elitist myself… If I go into a store and I hear someone say something that I think is rude, or a driver does something aggressive, and then gives me the finger, I may give them the finger back, or say something nasty back to them. I never used to do that. I guess life is catching up with me a bit. 

We all have our pros and cons. I have pointed a few that I believe are a few of her characteristics… I wouldn’t characterize it as me calling her satans queen, or whatever it was, that wise said.  
 

I think some of you are taking what I say. Way out of context, and way too far. That’s just my opinion.

it is sometimes this kind of mischaracterization that makes me want to delete these posts.

[Whirling D]

5 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

As for this, no. 

This is literally the definition of drama, and the subtext of it is total disrespect and radioactive levels of fear. Disrespect because, in essence, you are saying, "Dr. Lady, I know your feelings and needs more than you do, so please act on them." You are also saying, "Dr. Lady, I am miserable but too scared to end things, so please do it for me so I can find someone better than you." 

This is the stuff that turns people's brains inside out—or, from your perspective, makes them appear to be on a ledge.

It's all actually simple. If you want to spend time with someone, and remain committed to that, regardless of whatever hurdles or hardships, you talk that talk and walk the walk. If x, y, and z leads you to no longer want to walk that walk you man up and say, "I think you're great, but I have realized this isn't working out for me and am ending it." 

But me saying something like that to her, would be meant to give her a bit of a push, if that’s what she wants to do.  That’s not what I want her to do, and I don’t believe that’s what she wants to do… But if, in fact, she does wanna do that, I’d rather she put me out of my misery. This.
 

Also, you characterize it as a disservice that I called what she said to me last night at the beginning manipulative, although that’s exactly what most people said I was doing when I “dangled the carrot” in front of her, and offered her an opening to leave if that’s what she really wanted.

I have never said to her that I have wanted her to leave, or that I wanted to leave. Ever. I have always been hugely clear with her about how I feel, even last night, and what I would like.

If her interest in saying what she said last night came from frustration and hurt from the talks that we previously had, and maybe she even believed that I was trying to sneak out by saying those things, but one way or the other, for her to say that she thought we couldn’t find a way forward, if it was meant to coerce me into giving her more of something that she felt was lacking, that by definition is manipulation.

There would be much better ways to get that across with me… “D, I’m really hurt that this played out the way that I did, since I was so looking forward to spending time on my vacation with you, and I thought that’s what we had planned. I’m also worried and maybe disillusion about the conversations we had last week and how it sounded like you were pushing me to make a decision that I’m not ready to make. I almost got the feeling you were trying to push me away, which is not what I want.”

Do you see how that may have had a very different outcome?

And you may be right, maybe what I was doing when I challenged her with the hair saga was me trying to manipulate her to get her to do what I felt was lacking, and with our scheduling last night.  I couldn’t tell you.

[Type O Negative]

1 hour ago, Type O Negative said:

Just wanted to say hi and tell you I’m thinking about you… And that I love you, and I am not going anywhere'

D,

Come on dude. You're making yourself ill. Text her this and have a beer. 

[Whirling D]

3 minutes ago, Type O Negative said:

D,

Come on dude. You're making yourself ill. Text her this and have a beer. 

I am kind of afraid to text her this.
 

I figure if I give her some space, maybe that would be helpful? Maybe I’m giving myself space, too? 

[Whirling D]

5 minutes ago, Type O Negative said:

D,

Come on dude. You're making yourself ill. Text her this and have a beer. 

OK, I manned up… sent her the text.

She saw it within seconds, and here’s what she responded with:  😘

Is that a reasonable response, or does that seem somewhat passive?  
 

Guess I was hoping for something a little bit more engaged than that.

[Type O Negative]

Maybe.

Have a beer anyway!

[Type O Negative]

2 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

OK, I manned up… sent her the text.

She saw it within seconds, and here’s what she responded with:  😘

Is that a reasonable response, or does that seem somewhat passive?  
 

Guess I was hoping for something a little bit more engaged than that.

😘 is not bad, I think. For now, leave her be.

[bluecastle]

5 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

But me saying something like that to her, would be meant to give her a bit of a push, if that’s what she wants to do.  That’s not what I want her to do, and I don’t believe that’s what she wants to do… But if, in fact, she does wanna do that, I’d rather she put me out of my misery.

Putting aside the recent drama for moment, I'm just going to drill into this a bit, in hopes that it helps with your interactions in a more general way. 

It is mystifying to me that you don't see how (a) passive aggressive this is and (b) how much unneeded drama it creates. If it's not what you want, and if it's not even what you believer she wants, then why—why oh why?!—even light that fuse? 

If it's because you are sincerely miserable—well, you're not a coyote with a broken leg in the desert who, with a whimper, asks the wandering nomad for a stake through the heart to avoid hours or days or pain and starvation. You are a grown adult who can put yourself out of misery, by extracting yourself from situations that cause it. 

12 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Also, you characterize it as a disservice that I called what she said to me last night at the beginning manipulative, although that’s exactly what most people said I was doing when I “dangled the carrot”

Back to the drama: What I was trying to say is manipulation begets manipulation. To resort to a metaphor: If I throw a bunch of marbles of the floor on my living room on Monday, because I am feeling insecure about something my girlfriend said about my truck's tires looking dirty, my girlfriend might still be slipping around on them come Friday. Ergo, if she is testy about something seemingly innocuous at dinner that night it might be—in part—because she's still dizzy from all those marbles I tossed on the floor earlier. As such, she may not be able to respond in a manner straight out of a how-to-have-productive-conflict tutorial. She may instead throw a few marbles under my feet.

Conclusion? Since my brainstem is not connected to her, and as such cannot control her actions and reactions, I would opt to avoid throwing marbles on the floor in the future and see how things go. If they go well, great. If not, also great—means were a bad match who can't help but turn straight lines into knots. 

2 minutes ago, Type O Negative said:

😘 is not bad, I think. For now, leave her be.

Agree! 

 

[Whirling D]

2 minutes ago, Type O Negative said:

😘 is not bad, I think. For now, leave her be.

Yeah, I thought about it for a bit and thought that if she really didn’t wanna hear that from me, she might not give me any kind of romantic gesture back, and maybe would have just said, “thank you” or something like that.

 I am always analyzing everything for validation. Likely because I expect things to go badly and  to crash, like they always have

she asked me to call her before Band practice today, which I’ll do later on this afternoon.

[Batya33]

I think it’s passive but I also am not a fan of having these sorts of discussions via text.  In a way you resorting to text in this situation is passive too. 
 

[NighttimeNightmare]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

I agree with you for most of this… But the carrot that I have been dangling, has been pretty much an offering to her, and an opportunity, if not a nudge, to let me go if she thinks these things are going to be big deals.  I would almost rather have her put me out of my misery then to have us both keep trying hard to make it work, if it is only going to fail in the long run.

I’d hazard a guess you’re both emotionally unhealthy, there’s no way all of these weird undertones aren’t very present in her experiences with you thus far. I am wondering if she, too, craves this drama and intensity. 
 

a lot of people see conflict as a sign of compatibility if you “work hard enough,” “love strong enough,” etc etc etc   You mentioned she has a relationship history of both parties yelling at one another…

[Wiseman2]

36 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Tere would be much better ways to get that across with me… “

Don't worry about her script, focus on less hyperbole and innuendos in your own communication. Say what you mean, mean what you say. Obviously neither of you need permission to pull the plug. She can't do anything right. She responded to your text but that wasn't right either. 

[Whirling D]

8 minutes ago, bluecastle said:

Putting aside the recent drama for moment, I'm just going to drill into this a bit, in hopes that it helps with your interactions in a more general way. 

It is mystifying to me that you don't see how (a) passive aggressive this is and (b) how much unneeded drama it creates. If it's not what you want, and if it's not even what you believer she wants, then why—why oh why?!—even light that fuse? 

If it's because you are sincerely miserable—well, you're not a coyote with a broken leg in the desert who, with a whimper, asks the wandering nomad for a stake through the heart to avoid hours or days or pain and starvation. You are a grown adult who can put yourself out of misery, by extracting yourself from situations that cause it. 

Back to the drama: What I was trying to say is manipulation begets manipulation. To resort to a metaphor: If I throw a bunch of marbles of the floor on my living room on Monday, because I am feeling insecure about something my girlfriend said about my truck's tires looking dirty, my girlfriend might still be slipping around on them come Friday. Ergo, if she is testy about something seemingly innocuous at dinner that night it might be—in part—because she's still dizzy from all those marbles I tossed on the floor earlier. As such, she may not be able to respond in a manner straight out of a how-to-have-productive-conflict tutorial. She may instead throw a few marbles under my feet.

Conclusion? Since my brainstem is not connected to her, and as such cannot control her actions and reactions, I would opt to avoid throwing marbles on the floor in the future and see how things go. If they go well, great. If not, also great—means were a bad match who can't help but turn straight lines into knots. 

Agree! 

 

Ok, I see your points.  Thankfully, I didn’t throw any marbles under her feet at all last night… For the most part, I think I was scrambling from the marbles that she through under my feet.

maybe I’ll make one last ditch effort at validating why I said those things a week ago… I’m not a good one with analogies or anecdotes… But let’s say you have a friend that is constantly hitting below the belt… ie, talks smack about sensitive topics, like religion/hair/homestead/schedules… Eventually the recipient of those low blows is going to feel that they have had enough, they may strike back. That may be what I was doing… Is that passive aggressive? Maybe. For me, I thought I was just laying my cards on the table and telling her what I was experiencing.

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

I thought about saying that to her recently… “Doctor lady, if you really are struggling with all of these things that we have talked about, then, perhaps I should urge you to let me go, so I can go find someone who won’t have these red flags”.  

I agree with Blue, NO!  For different reasons. 

Why do you need HER to "let you go"?

If you're not happy with how she treats you and these "red flags" she continues to find and point out, then for the love of all things beautiful, YOU make the decision to go!

You do NOT need her permission to walk away from a woman (her) who in your mind finds fault with you, judges you, criticizes you; I'm sorry but that is just so weak Whirl.

You are a grown man, you're not in this relationship for the sole purpose of pleasing her and acquiescing to her demands/desires.

Compromise is good and healthy but what you're doing is forfeiting who you are as a MAN to please her.

If you continue this way, guarantee she will lose respect for you if she hasn't done so already at least on some level.

This is NOT going to get better. 

[Type O Negative]

12 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I agree with Blue, NO!  For different reasons. 

Why do you need HER to "let you go"?

If you're not happy with how she treats you and these "red flags" she continues to find and point out, then for the love of all things beautiful, YOU make the decision to go!

You do NOT need her permission to walk away from a woman (her) who in your mind finds fault with you, judges you, criticizes you; I'm sorry but that is just so weak Whirl.

You are a grown man, you're not in this relationship for the sole purpose of pleasing her and acquiescing to her demands/desires.

Compromise is good and healthy but what you're doing is forfeiting who you are as a MAN to please her.

If you continue this way, guarantee she will lose respect for you if she hasn't done so already at least on some level.

This is NOT going to get better. 

To go where? Back to life of solitude  and yearning for human touch? At 61? With his romantic history? D won't leave. 

D,

Don't throw in the towel yet. See what happens in the next couple of days. I wouldn't ring her today though. 

[Wiseman2]

10 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Eventually the recipient of those low blows is going to feel that they have had enough, they may strike back. 

That's true. Maybe that's what pushed her to finally give you a taste of your own medicine and do the "maybe this won't work out then..."  thing?

Try to let up on twisting her horns. She's human, and has already admitted insightfully to her own foibles.

People have arguments. But these arguments are starting to not be about disagreement on a particular topic but starting to get into character assassination.

If you want a nice time being entertained at her tony beach house this weekend, you may want to calm down and relax.

[rainbowsandroses]

1 hour ago, Whirling D said:

OK, I manned up… sent her the text.

She saw it within seconds, and here’s what she responded with:  😘

"Guess I was hoping for something a little bit more engaged than that."

This response was horrible Whirl. Horrible!

I'm sorry but this lady has ZERO respect for you. 

And no what you did was not "manning up" it was you forfeiting your needs, your values in order to score points and hold her and prevent her from leaving.

I am appalled at her response, my advice is to wish her well and end this, today!

Lord.