What’s next?

[Batya33]

15 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Thank you, rainbow… That was almost the exact feeling I had when we were talking about it… Like she was making judgments based on appearance, and how it would reflect on her… I felt disrespected and valued. Not what I expected from her or any potential partner.
 

Everyone has their biases, and their comfort levels, I guess, so I’m trying not to be overly harsh or judgmental about it all… But I can’t shake it. I think it’s a bad reflection on her. But what does it really mean in the greater scheme of things? I can’t yet say. Will I be able to look at her with the same innocent gaze, that I once did, and with trust that I wasn’t going to be judged by superficial means, which has triggered me almost my entire life?

Mind you, I kind of get it. She is in a very proper and conservative profession, and she said she has certain standards She has to uphold and a reputation to look out for. I interpreted that exactly as you did. She doesn’t want to be embarrassed in front of her colleagues. 

We both talked about how it’s not easy for us to trust others, because we have been hurt so many times, and we are super sensitive… Yet she went ahead and said something to me, that was kind of thoughtless… That she should have known better not to say.  I don’t know how much I can trust her moving forward.

does this sound too harsh?

So then if she knew you judged her appearance as far as your level of attraction to her -we're all superficial to an extent with that -me too - with rare exception - should she also be offended and find you superficial?

I don't think you should be with her if you don't get why she's concerned since you have made choices with your appearance that are fairly atypical and you absolutely don't have to date someone who has chosen a very conservative/buttoned up profession that clearly is not just a job/way to pay the bills.

Especially if you are not her spouse or father of her kids I can see where she might have to make certain choices -if she feels really awkward /it affects her professional presentation while there - well  -you might not be even close to forever with her and this is her profession, her livelihood -even if she left this job -it's a small world.  If she married you/had a family and home with you then I would be more of the opinion of her showing her colleagues by showing up with you "as is"  "this is my person, he is my family - take it or leave it/shove it". 

I didn't want a man I was dating to wear his ostentatious pinky ring to a corporate event of mine in the 1990s. I think he did anyway - I wasn't going to have it be a hill to die on or anything - I was very junior and didn't want my date to stick out.  His attitude -his general attitude -reflected in other ways -was one reason we didn't date more than a few months.

My son and I attended my husband's graduation in 2022.  He accomplished a PhD.  My son was 13 at the time.  We went to the reception after -briefly - my husband introduced my son to his advisor in the program and I had never met him and knew him by his first name and knew of his last name. 

My son, after being introduced to this person as "Professor First Name Last Name" by accident said Hi First Name. 

My husband gently enough corrected him -not harshly at all -and my son quickly said I mean Professor ____.  Stuffy? Sure probably and maybe -gasp- elitist to some.  I was glad -my son was reminded of the appropriate manners, was not judged harshly -he actually does know better he just momentarily forgot. 

In another family the child likely would have been rewarded for rebelling against these silly titles based on just a stupid piece of paper.  If I felt that way about it then I would suspect my husband and I would butt heads fairly seriously on a bunch of other stuff.

[Whirling D]

7 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

For sure if it's all about her personally then it becomes a general thing because then she'd want him to change his hair for all sorts of casual family and friend gatherings.  So far she has not - I think he met her mom and brother if I'm not mistaken and nothing at all was said about how he should dress or wear his hair.  He even posted a really nice photo of the two of them and presumably she'd have been fine if he showed it around/posted it on social media and he wore his hair down, he was all chill and casual -no issue at all.

But -hmmm -if she wasn't a professional -which he says he likes -then .... no beach house, no house, no ability to buy a new car -at least not easily -no way for her to contribute financially were this to get serious.  I see often this sort of knee jerk reaction based on appearances- especially women - a woman who appears/is an educated professional is labeled "elitist" or worse at the drop of a hat.  Just like the OP hates being labeled as whatever based on how he dresses/wears his hair.  

They both are package deals -he looked down on her for not knowing some medical term or maybe mispronouncing it? He gets judgey about her preference for nice cars and judges how much $$ she puts into the beach house.  She has judged his hair aside from the professional event situation - so yes it might be connected to her discomfort with how he would look on her arm at an event.

 

I haven’t met any of her family, yet, bat.  She did tell me that when she told her mother I had long hair that her mother said, “he must do drugs, then“ or something like that. So, Dr. Lady said she doesn’t wanna have to deal with that kind of thing in her professional environment, but yet won’t leave it up to me to make the judgments necessary to do what I would need to do to make her look good in that professional environment, which I predict, I probably could. But then again, I’ve only known her a short while, so how would she know whether she could trust me to do that or not? I don’t know. 
 

All I know is that it leaves a lump in my stomach that I don’t know will go away anytime soon. I feel that I might have to have an additional conversation about this, and I don’t think it’s going to go over well. It didn’t seem like she had any capacity to want to truly empathize with what I was trying to say to her when we were talking about it. I think she could sense my distaste about the topic, and she turned it into, “you seem to only want to think of yourself in this situation”.  
 

She couldn’t understand how I would have no interest in appealing to people who would judge me based on those factors… And she seemed to think that this is how society is, which is true, and that I needed to be better at negotiating these kinds of environments to be able to move forward in life. Something like that. It perplexed her why I told her I had no interest in appealing to that kind of ideology, and that the community that I search would never judge someone solely on their appearance.

The more I have thought about it over the last while, the more I do sense that it is controlling. I think she is going to be a controlling person moving forward. Things must be done this way, or that way, and nothing else is satisfactory. that’s probably why she has no interest in coming to my house. It’s not as well presented as hers. She’s bought into this “I am a doctor, and I can have nice things and present a certain image, and I don’t want anybody to rock that“.
 

I think it’s a bit of a conundrum for her, because I think she really likes who I am, and what I represent, but at the same time she wants to preserve this “image“ that I think she’s built for herself. perhaps it’s warranted, because she has worked hard, but I also think she’s struggling with it, because the time and energy she has put into it has maybe not brought her the happiness that she thought it might, yet I convey to her that people can be happy with much less. I think that’s a tough concept for her to accept, because it draws question to her whole philosophy. 

[Whirling D]

11 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

We are in 2023!! Frankly, who cares about looks?? I would even say that some of her colleagues might consider it refreshing to meet someone a bit different… I think it’s more about her and her lack of open mindedness. 

Thank you, Sindy.   Nice to hear from you. Hope you are hanging in there… 🙂 Any dates this weekend? 🙂
 

Well, I think for her it comes from fear and insecurity. She’s probably more afraid than I am that someone is going to judge her harshly about something. So, if she brings some dude into a professional event, that looks scruffy, she’s afraid that it’s going to reflect badly on her and her career.

I don’t know what you would call that. We all have biases like that in some form. But this one hit rock bottom for me. I don’t know how to handle that.

[catfeeder]

6 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

We are in 2023!! Frankly, who cares about looks?? I would even say that some of her colleagues might consider it refreshing to meet someone a bit different… I think it’s more about her and her lack of open mindedness. 

Yes, which she poked fun of herself for. We all have some hangups about something or other. I do like to point out my own faults now and then with people I trust not to trash me for them.  Or even the faults of my family—like preparing a guy before he meets my folks that they can be really offensive. Not a little offensive, a LOT offensive, and if he would kindly do me the favor of letting some things slide, I’ll be his best friend, and he never needs to deal with them again.

The world is paved with dealbreakers if we want to see them everywhere.

[Whirling D]

This conversation kind of reminds me when I first started at a public school here in the US… I was in my early 40s already, and it didn’t make any sense for me that the kids had to call me “Mr. S”.  I thought it sounded silly and formal, and I asked my boss if they could just call me by my first name, which, incidentally, is mostly a girls name here, I wanted them to just call me by my first name. Oh no, you could never do that in a public school. It would be a form of disrespect.

Hogwash.  It’s the same as the conversation I had with one of my close colleagues about how you had to look “professional“ to be respected in my school, and that your clothes should reflect that. I once again said hogwash. I said people will respect you by how you treat them most of the time. I don’t think there’s anything more to it than that. 

[NighttimeNightmare]

20 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

She couldn’t understand how I would have no interest in appealing to people who would judge me based on those factors… And she seemed to think that this is how society is, which is true, and that I needed to be better at negotiating these kinds of environments to be able to move forward in life. Something like that. It perplexed her why I told her I had no interest in appealing to that kind of ideology, and that the community that I search would never judge someone solely on their appearance.

The more I have thought about it over the last while, the more I do sense that it is controlling. I think she is going to be a controlling person moving forward. Things must be done this way, or that way, and nothing else is satisfactory. that’s probably why she has no interest in coming to my house. It’s not as well presented as hers.

This may be a deal breaker for you.  I am very similar to this woman, I love nice, manicured things. Tailored clothing. Well-designed homes, and people. I’m not against bumming it out at home, and I don’t think people who present “nicer” are better people; but I simply appreciate certain things and I struggle to deal with mess or disorder…. Even if it’s someone’s appearance. 
 

so with that said, I am wondering why she’s with you? When I enter into a partnership with a woman, a lot of my attraction is based on that persons appearance -BUT- their personality is directly tied to how they choose to present themselves.    I find that when a woman wants things prim, proper, and orderly, it’s expressed in her clothing, and home, and I find it incredibly attractive; whereas you find it controlling and being untrue to yourself.  So again… maybe this is a dealbreaker for you and you two aren’t compatible when it comes to this? 
 

I also enjoy going to dress-coded events, and certain night life, and so I wouldn’t be with someone who didn’t naturally know how to, and enjoy, putting themselves together in ways that I thought were acceptable to my standards.  Doesn’t mean I don’t see people who aren’t into this as less-than, or without value, I just know they aren’t *for me*

[rainbowsandroses]

1 minute ago, catfeeder said:

Hmmm. Maybe I should have been offended when my sister had my hair and makeup done and zipped me up in this Ghaaad awful gown with Princess Dianna sleeves (I $—- you not!) because she would have been ashamed of my hippie-flower-child appearance in her wedding?

 I can appreciate that we each can hold some extreme views, but to me, supporting someone’s desired outcome with a loved one doesn’t include trashing their loved one and turning minor differences in opinion into toxic abuses and character assaults.

 I just don’t view that as helpful. It sounds like a lot of projection to me.

The situation with your sister was different which should not need explaining why. 

But yes you are correct, my view is extreme.

I was raised by a mother whose focus on appearances not only severely damaged my dad (he eventually divorced her) but me personally.

She required me to be nothing short of perfect.  I had to maintain a certain weight which was extremely unhealthy, skin perfect, just one little blemish would result in her raging, dress perfectly (designer clothes which she bought and I hated), all to show her friends what a "perfect beautiful daughter" she had.

A reflection of HER which she never hesitated telling me, ad nauseum.

She didn't give a damn about me and the fact her standards resulted in me developing a serious eating disorder that nearly killed me.

So yes I know all about being focused on appearances and you can spin this however you like, but those who are, and who require loved ones especially a boyfriend/girlfriend or spouse or in my mother's case, daughter, to adhere to certain standards to avoid being embarrassed are best avoided to phrase it less harshly.

The potential damage to one's self-esteem and self-worth can be soul destroying to say the LEAST.

Again, the situation with your sister was a completely different thing and I think you know that too.

 

[rainbowsandroses]

Another thing about my mother, she preferred, no actually required my dad to become an attorney.  Or she refused to marry him. 

He didn't want to, at heart he is an artist, a talented carpenter, he designed and made all my bedroom furniture among other beautiful items and if not for my mother, who I suspect wanted to impress HER elitist parents AND her friends, would have pursued that profession instead of an attorney.

She also pushed my dad to purchase a home in a middle to upper class neighborhood so as to "keep up with the Jones."

This type of mindset is toxic to any relationship I'm sorry. 

And it doesn't get better. Only worse.

Whirling stay true to yourself and your own values. As I said, you deserve better imo.

[Sindy_0311]

My sisters is a doctor in biology. And when she has to attend events, or when she got graduated, she maid some efforts. I went to her graduation in Miami a few years ago and saw many of these scientists who just don’t care about their looks… she got married to a man who had a good position in Society and good/well paid jobs in big firms. She has a 100% natural look. She never wears makeup, never goes to the hairdresser, sometimes ever wears 20years old trousers, but she doesn’t care, and neither does her husband care because she loves her and admires her deeply. Her husbands family is more conservative, and also is my mother. But she just leads her life as she wants even when she gets comments about her looks… for me she’s and example.

[rainbowsandroses]

39 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I haven’t met any of her family, yet, bat.  She did tell me that when she told her mother I had long hair that her mother said, “he must do drugs, then“ or something like that.

Oh come on!  I mean it's bad enough her mother feels this way, but to tell you? 

What was her purpose in telling you this, it's seriously effed up! 

This isn't going to get better Whirl.  

[Batya33]

27 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

This conversation kind of reminds me when I first started at a public school here in the US… I was in my early 40s already, and it didn’t make any sense for me that the kids had to call me “Mr. S”.  I thought it sounded silly and formal, and I asked my boss if they could just call me by my first name, which, incidentally, is mostly a girls name here, I wanted them to just call me by my first name. Oh no, you could never do that in a public school. It would be a form of disrespect.

Hogwash.  It’s the same as the conversation I had with one of my close colleagues about how you had to look “professional“ to be respected in my school, and that your clothes should reflect that. I once again said hogwash. I said people will respect you by how you treat them most of the time. I don’t think there’s anything more to it than that. 

I taught in both sorts of schools. My son went to both sorts of schools. I don’t think it’s hogwash at all.  And I was fine with the first name approach too. Also because it was consistent - meaning the kids didn’t have to choose each time how to address their teachers. 
I always wanted my nieces and nephew to call me Aunt (my first name). I didn’t like the first name thing. It meant something to me and I do think names can show respect.  Now that they’re adults I don’t care either way. My son calls my husband’s first cousin Aunt because my husband is an only child. My sister doesn’t care either way and neither do I.  
I very often ask someone after they call me Mrs last name to call me by my first name. I never ever presume I can call someone by his or her first name unless invited to. I’d rather be more formal to start as a sign of respect. 
I think if you want to work for a school you comply with how they prefer. If you don’t like it don’t work for a school. Just be a private tutor or start your own school and do your own thing.

I mean almost everyone has to conform in some way for an employer. Uniforms for example. Dress code.  Appropriate virtual background for zoom meetings and or mandates camera on for meetings.  Basic part of work if you’re not the owner who gets to have whatever rules or no rules. 

[catfeeder]

3 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

The situation with your sister was different which should not need explaining why. 

But yes you are correct, my view is extreme.

I was raised by a mother whose focus on appearances not only severely damaged my dad (he eventually divorced her) but me personally.

She required me to be nothing short of perfect.  I had to maintain a certain weight which was extremely unhealthy, skin perfect, just one little blemish would result in her raging, dress perfectly (designer clothes which she bought and I hated), all to show her friends what a "perfect beautiful daughter" she had.

A reflection of HER which she never hesitated telling me, ad nauseum.

She didn't give a damn about me and the fact her standards resulted in me developing a serious eating disorder that nearly killed me.

So yes I know all about being focused on appearances and you can spin this however you like, but those who are, and who require loved ones especially a boyfriend/girlfriend or spouse or in my mother's case, daughter, to adhere to certain standards to avoid being embarrassed are best avoided to phrase it less harshly.

The potential damage to one's self-esteem and self-worth can be soul destroying to say the LEAST.

Again, the situation with your sister was a completely different thing and I think you know that too.

 

Thank you for recognizing that a traumatic reaction is driving your interpretations of these conversations with a woman who you and I don’t know.

Total stranger. We have no skin in this relationship, which, by all accounts, the OP hopes will work out.

So I understand why you are operating from a POV that doesn’t recognize the parallel between being asked to embrace a total head-to-toe makeover for a specific event versus being asked to adopt an elastic hair band for a specific event. Both are temporary and for a special purpose. One is just far more complex, costly and difficult than the other.

 I can empathize with a critical and controlling mom, I tried to grow up with one, myself. I think this has made me all the more resolute about her influence NOT harming my voluntary relationships.

If there was ever a time to rebel against my own mother’s control over my social and intimate health, it would be now that I own the skills to differentiate between traumatic drivers that sabotage my best interests and my own power to relax into the adult I’ve raised myself to become.

The best answer to every trigger is not to bludgeon it with an opposite reaction. We can choose to integrate a healthy balance into our adult perceptions, and so instead of reacting, we can respond as we wish.

[Batya33]

17 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

Another thing about my mother, she preferred, no actually required my dad to become an attorney.   Or she refused to marry him. 

He didn't want to, at heart he is an artist, a talented carpenter, he made all my bedroom furniture among other beautiful items and if not for my mother, who I suspect wanted to impress HER elitist parents AND her friends, would have pursued that profession instead of an attorney.

She also pushed my dad to purchase a home in a middle to upper class neighborhood so as to "keep up with the Jones."

This type of mindset is toxic to any relationship I'm sorry. 

And it doesn't get better. Only worse.

Whirling stay true to yourself and your own values. As I said, you deserve better imo.

I know of people like this and I know of many who would absolutely tell their SO how to conform to a dress code for a professional event and never ever take it to that extreme. Apples and oranges. 

[Wiseman2]

35 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

Hogwash.  It’s the same as the conversation I had with one of my close colleagues about how you had to look “professional“ to be respected in my school, and that your clothes should reflect that. I once again said hogwash

It's fine to have your stance on things and it seems this didn't begin with this lady. However if you already agree she's a "stuck up elitist b**** ", probably best to step back and stop talking about houses and pooling money. Because with the difference in your ideologies, it seems like it would be hard to agree on anything.

[Batya33]

34 minutes ago, NighttimeNightmare said:

This may be a deal breaker for you.  I am very similar to this woman, I love nice, manicured things. Tailored clothing. Well-designed homes, and people. I’m not against bumming it out at home, and I don’t think people who present “nicer” are better people; but I simply appreciate certain things and I struggle to deal with mess or disorder…. Even if it’s someone’s appearance. 
 

so with that said, I am wondering why she’s with you? When I enter into a partnership with a woman, a lot of my attraction is based on that persons appearance -BUT- their personality is directly tied to how they choose to present themselves.    I find that when a woman wants things prim, proper, and orderly, it’s expressed in her clothing, and home, and I find it incredibly attractive; whereas you find it controlling and being untrue to yourself.  So again… maybe this is a dealbreaker for you and you two aren’t compatible when it comes to this? 
 

I also enjoy going to dress-coded events, and certain night life, and so I wouldn’t be with someone who didn’t naturally know how to, and enjoy, putting themselves together in ways that I thought were acceptable to my standards.  Doesn’t mean I don’t see people who aren’t into this as less-than, or without value, I just know they aren’t *for me*

I agree. I wrote similarly above. I absolutely avoided dating men who felt about this issue as he does - despite being good friends and colleagues etc with people who lived in this way and with these sorts of values including financial values.  I knew it would be a disaster to be in a serious romantic relationship while a close friendship - yes of course. And I’m not as intense about it as you are but I totally relate to your general view. 

[Batya33]

54 minutes ago, Whirling D said:

I haven’t met any of her family, yet, bat.  She did tell me that when she told her mother I had long hair that her mother said, “he must do drugs, then“ or something like that. So, Dr. Lady said she doesn’t wanna have to deal with that kind of thing in her professional environment, but yet won’t leave it up to me to make the judgments necessary to do what I would need to do to make her look good in that professional environment, which I predict, I probably could. But then again, I’ve only known her a short while, so how would she know whether she could trust me to do that or not? I don’t know. 
 

All I know is that it leaves a lump in my stomach that I don’t know will go away anytime soon. I feel that I might have to have an additional conversation about this, and I don’t think it’s going to go over well. It didn’t seem like she had any capacity to want to truly empathize with what I was trying to say to her when we were talking about it. I think she could sense my distaste about the topic, and she turned it into, “you seem to only want to think of yourself in this situation”.  
 

She couldn’t understand how I would have no interest in appealing to people who would judge me based on those factors… And she seemed to think that this is how society is, which is true, and that I needed to be better at negotiating these kinds of environments to be able to move forward in life. Something like that. It perplexed her why I told her I had no interest in appealing to that kind of ideology, and that the community that I search would never judge someone solely on their appearance.

The more I have thought about it over the last while, the more I do sense that it is controlling. I think she is going to be a controlling person moving forward. Things must be done this way, or that way, and nothing else is satisfactory. that’s probably why she has no interest in coming to my house. It’s not as well presented as hers. She’s bought into this “I am a doctor, and I can have nice things and present a certain image, and I don’t want anybody to rock that“.
 

I think it’s a bit of a conundrum for her, because I think she really likes who I am, and what I represent, but at the same time she wants to preserve this “image“ that I think she’s built for herself. perhaps it’s warranted, because she has worked hard, but I also think she’s struggling with it, because the time and energy she has put into it has maybe not brought her the happiness that she thought it might, yet I convey to her that people can be happy with much less. I think that’s a tough concept for her to accept, because it draws question to her whole philosophy. 

I would never assume someone with long hair does drugs.  But - her mom is 90. Cut her generational slack. You’re into looks too. You wrote quite a bit about her looks and whether you were attracted enough to her looks. It’s all about what Catfeeder wrote. IMO. 

[rainbowsandroses]

6 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I would never assume someone with long hair does drugs.  But - her mom is 90. Cut her generational slack. You’re into looks too. You wrote quite a bit about her looks and whether you were attracted enough to her looks. It’s all about what Catfeeder wrote. IMO. 

I agree Bat BUT the bigger issue is why did she feel the need to tell him? 

What was her purpose in telling him?  Especially considering how sensitive an issue it is for him.

Was she aiming at getting a laugh? 

Or was she subtly undermining him as a way to push him to cut his hair because again, it embarrasses her?

@catfeeder is right, I don't know her but from everything@Whirling Dhas shared about her including his own feelings about her, I'm getting a pretty good picture.

 

[rainbowsandroses]

33 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I know of people like this and I know of many who would absolutely tell their SO how to conform to a dress code for a professional event and never ever take it to that extreme. Apples and oranges. 

I thought we established there was/is no dress code. 

She asked him to wear his hair differently because in her mind, it would reflect badly on HER (embarrass her).

That's what he posted.  She was concerned his hair would reflect poorly on HER.   And her choices.  He did post that. 

Which is all sorts of wrong imho. It’s utterly deflating and insulting, not sure how anyone could refute that. 

In truth, it's highly unlikely her company would even care.  

[catfeeder]

21 minutes ago, Sindy_0311 said:

My sisters is a doctor in biology. And when she has to attend events, or when she got graduated, she maid some efforts. I went to her graduation in Miami a few years ago and saw many of these scientists who just don’t care about their looks… she got married to a man who had a good position in Society and good/well paid jobs in big firms. She has a 100% natural look. She never wears makeup, never goes to the hairdresser, sometimes ever wears 20years old trousers, but she doesn’t care, and neither does her husband care because she loves her and admires her deeply. Her husbands family is more conservative, and also is my mother. But she just leads her life as she wants even when she gets comments about her looks… for me she’s and example.

This is a wonderful example! You (and we) can credit your sister with the emotional intelligence to negotiate and navigate her way through both professional and societal situations.

My guess is, she has not viewed altering her appearance through a traumatic lens of resisting any request to cooperate. Sometimes scrubs and a hair net serve a purpose, while a white coat might serve another, or typing back her hair could be appropriate in some situations.

She sounds healthy to me.

[rainbowsandroses]

@Whirling DI have a question, and would ask that you think about before responding.

Putting aside all the other issues, had Dr Lady presented her request like this or something like:

"Whirling, you are so handsome! Would you wear your hair back sometimes so I can see more of that handsome face?!

Instead of presenting it like your hair would be poor reflection on her and her choices.. ugh. 

Would it have made a difference? 

I don't think it's about her request per se, but more about her intent for making the request. 

To avoid being embarrassed?

OR because she simply thinks you would look more handsome with it pulled back?

Intent matters. 

Edit:  I have made such requests before.  I recall telling my ex before a wedding I thought he looked so sexy in this pink shirt he had purchased recently (I love pink shirts on men, lol) and asked if he would wear it for the wedding.

He happily obliged and we had a great time. 

Again, intent matters.

[Whirling D]

3 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

@Whirling DI have a question, and would ask that you think about before responding.

Putting aside all the other issues, had Dr Lady presented her request like this:

"Whirling, you are so handsome! Would you wear your hair back sometimes so I can see more of that handsome face?!

Instead of presenting it like your hair would be poor reflection on her and her choices.. ugh. 

Would it had made a difference? 

That’s pretty much how she started the conversation, rainbow. I don’t remember if it was the first or second leg of the conversation, which happened on different days.
 

She came over and she took the hairband that my daughter had put on my wrist months before, that I still had there just as a reminder of my daughter… And she put my hair in a ponytail. That’s when she said, “I just don’t understand why you would want to hide that cute face like that… You have such a cute face, and just like your mother says, your hair is a distraction from that“. that was flattering. I guess. Just not about my hair, which is part of the package. 

After that, the conversation went in the direction of how it made her feel about inviting me to professional events.

As for what wise was saying… I don’t believe I am saying she is a stuck up elitist b.  If I had to try to put it into different words, I think she just has an outdated philosophy about what is important on a different plane. Maybe it’s more of a Buddhist philosophy, I don’t know, because I don’t know specifics about Buddhism. I suspect within the Buddhist world, what you look like, means very little.  

and yes, I’m probably a little hypocritical, because a lot of the times I look at her, I find her very attractive… And I struggle with that a bit… I thought to myself, “Whirl, what would happen if she came to me one day and said she was going to cut her hair short? I don’t find shorter hair as attractive on women… What would I say to her? I would certainly say to her that I would prefer her hair to be longer, which I think I already hinted that, but what I tell her that I wouldn’t be as attracted to her with short hair?” I hope I would never say something like that.

That was an actual conversation I had with myself, and I don’t know the outcome of that conversation. I have no doubt that the doctor lady still cares for me despite my long hair.  I believe she told me that it wasn’t a dealbreaker, and she accepted my hair, just as it was… But, I may have damaged that care by my response to her, but I am hoping she will also respect my vantage on it. And that is, we should not judge people based on what they look like, and we should allow them to live the life they feel they were meant to live. Although, I think it’s more likely she thinks I’m inflexible and a bit snobbish in that regard. Based on the conversations here,  that may be what many of you might think. 

As a result, I’m trying to think of things from a different perspective. This conversation may temper my distaste of her opinion, which I think is a good thing. Hearing different perspectives, and opinions I think it’s really helpful in this regard. I think you guys for that. 

I don’t want you guys to think that I am completely trashing this lady for her opinion. I don’t particularly care for it, which is a little troublesome, and I don’t particularly care that her mother said what she did. I think the doctor lady told me that just to prepare me for what kind of conservative backlash I might be confronted by. I was a bit amused by it, but there’s a small grain of hurt embedded in there, because I will hopefully meet this lady at some point soon, and that makes me feel like I’m already a step behind .

Clearly, everybody wants to meet someone that they think is going to accept you exactly as you are, and not try to change you. I think that’s why I’m heartbroken. I thought maybe I finally found someone who is going to value me just as I am, divots and all.  I may have to work a little harder to get over this hump, as many of us do in relationships to get over other kinds of humps. If she’s up for the challenge, I will try to get over this and keep moving forward. She is so decent and loving in so many other ways. None of us are perfect. I know she thinks I can be irritating, as many of you do, that I debate the crap out of everything. Even stuff she tells me related to science.  She’ll tell me something that she believes is true, and I will counter what she says with something that I may have read or studied in school. She said she thought that sometimes it was irritating that I did that, but multiple times we talked about that kind of thing and I told her that it’s not a matter that I feel like I need to be right all the time. I just want somebody to be right. And I want to find out what the truth actually is in these matters.

As I said, probably a year ago, my friend in Canada and I always compare different ways of doing things and compare what we believe to be true. Neither of us care who comes up with the right answer, as long as somebody comes up with something that sounds like the best solution. He learns from me, I learn from him, and we’re both happy as pigs and manure to compare what we think we may have learned. No different with the doctor lady. I hope she understands that, because we’ve talked about it several times.

 

[catfeeder]

57 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I agree Bat BUT the bigger issue is why did she feel the need to tell him? 

Good question. Say, I'm romantically involved with a woman, and she has this profession, not just a job. And I recognize that she has had to pull off some steep climbs in a mostly male field, and she's sensitive about THAT.

She foresees enough of a future with US to hope that I'll attend some professional events with her. But I have this thing--a sensitivity about my whatever. You can insert ANY 'thing' here, it's not even the point.

On most days she loves this thing about me, yet given her vision of a future together, she wants to run by me a scenario that she's worried about--even though she knows it's HER issue, HER fear.

She asks me if, for ONE meeting with her 'professional tribe' I would be willing to wear a sleeve over my tattoo, or leave my nose ring at home, or whatever... Would the only healthy reaction to that to be a flip-out accusation of her being an abusive beast just like my mother?

I mean, c'mOn. To appease THAT trigger, I must now put up with that abuse, here, trashing my love for my lover ever since?

[Batya33]

57 minutes ago, rainbowsandroses said:

I thought we established there was/is no dress code. 

I don't think it needs to be limited to a dress code.  She knows her professional environment and what is appropriate and what might reflect poorly on her by association.  If I were whirling D I'd either defer to her sense as he is an outsider and use the elastic band or not go.  I can't relate to him feeling offended in this situation and if he is I think it's a sign they're not compatible.  Nothing about mud slinging at either of them - elitist/hippy -none of that is relevant.

I think she should have skipped what her mom said -that was too much in the situation and he's not going to find it funny.

[Whirling D]

1 minute ago, catfeeder said:

Good question. Say, I'm romantically involved with a woman, and she has this profession, not just a job. And I recognize that she has had to pull off some steep climbs in a mostly male field, and she's sensitive about THAT.

She foresees enough of a future with US to hope that I'll attend some professional events with her. But I have this thing--a sensitivity about my whatever. You can insert ANY 'thing' here, it's not even the point.

On most days she loves this thing about me, yet given her vision of a future together, she wants to run by me a scenario that she's worried about--even though she knows it's HER issue, HER fear.

She asks me if, for ONE meeting with her 'professional tribe' I would be willing to wear a sleeve over my tattoo, or leave my nose ring at home, or whatever... Would the only healthy reaction to that to be a flip-out accusation of her being an abusive beast just like my mother?

I mean, c'mOn. To appease THAT trigger, I must now put up with that abuse, here, trashing my love for my lover ever since?

So who is being abusive now?

That’s a reasonable anecdote, but if it’s me, you’re directing this toward, I don’t think I’m trashing her. Do I by her reasoning as to why she would want me to do that? I don’t. I don’t agree with it, and I think it’s disrespectful.
 

I didn’t really heavily turn that conversation back around her with a pointed arrow at her… I just repeated my own philosophy on it, and that I felt that I could be respected on my own terms, and I should be valued for who I am, despite what I look like… It may be a week argument, but that’s what I believe

But multiple times, I said to her I would do whatever I needed to, to make her feel comfortable, because I care about her.

I don’t want to feel like I am judging her, although I suppose that’s what I’m doing. That’s what this is really all about if we think about it. It’s about judgment. Who’s judging who. I need to let that go. She believes what she believes, and she has a right to believe it. I don’t have to like it. She doesn’t have to like my hair, I guess. Not many people do. 

[Whirling D]

Just now, Batya33 said:

I don't think it needs to be limited to a dress code.  She knows her professional environment and what is appropriate and what might reflect poorly on her by association.  If I were whirling D I'd either defer to her sense as he is an outsider and use the elastic band or not go.  I can't relate to him feeling offended in this situation and if he is I think it's a sign they're not compatible.  Nothing about mud slinging at either of them - elitist/hippy -none of that is relevant.

Well, as has been said before… Is this really the hill I want to die on with her? I don’t think it is. Can I live with her not caring much for my long hair? I guess I could. It’s just hair.
 

No differently than if she got hers cut short. I don’t think I disown her if she did, even though it would lower my attraction to her physically. But that’s only part of the whole picture, right?