Met a fine woman, need advise

[Giotemantiker]

Hello,

I (41M) met a fine woman (32) a few days ago. I organised a social come together at that day. Foreign people meet, play a game and get to know each other.
So at that day we played our 2 hours and I developed a crush on the woman on my right. I am not a participant, I am the moderator. The girl had the lowest score and I told her that I'll give her a consolation prize later. She smiled. She smiled a lot at me during the whole time. The group sat together for another hour, the bar closed. She made up the idea to go down the street to a karaoke bar. Many followed her, including myself. Of course 😉
We managed to sit next to each other, writing down songs we will sing later on. We talked, flirted, had drinks (not too many). I dont drink at all. Our legs touched from time to time and none of us drew back. It felt nice.
Over the time she told us that she often goes to this bar, alone, and waits for men to approch her. She also said, that every time she's there she is kissed by them. And one time she hooked up with one of them. I got suspicous about her intentions for the night.
She poked me in the my hips.
Later on, as most people left and 3 of us still at our table, she asked me about the consolation prize. I told her that I held it back to increase the tension... I handed her a small box of chocolates, which I had with me by accident (a whole different story). I liked her, so I thought it would be a great idea. She liked it.
I offered her to drive her home, because she mentioned something about ordering a ride. She agreed, while joking.
Then the 3rd of us, a man, suddendly tried to convince her to kiss him. She didnt really react. Then he left. It got REALLY late, it was in the middle of the week. She wrote down another song for us: "Stevie Wonder I Just Called To Say I Love You". We performed it as the last song before the bar closed. While singing she really smiled a lot, looked at me like she really likes me, especially when the text was about "love". It felt great. I had a good feeling.
We left the bar and went to my car. I asked her if she wanted to tell me her address or just lead me. She gave me her address and I drove her home, asking her out about her weekly kissing experience and why she is doing that. She talked it small and said that it was the men approching her and she lets it happen most of the time... Hmmmmm!
We stop at her place. Inside the car, we get really in serious talks, about crisis, family and private stories. A lot of trust in the air. We sat there for another HOUR!
I had to pee. I kindly asked her whether I could release myself at her flat real quick. She totally agreed, joked about it. We moved in. I peed, went towards her, initiating the goodbye for tonight. A very very very long hug followed. None of us released from it. It felt so good, I told her that I need to kiss her now, I have to. Her answer was: "ok, a short one" - huh? I didnt intent to get any more into it (like sleeping with her) because I really had to get home - it was 2am - and thought I can never be the last time seeing her and that there will be more time for that. We kissed, 4 times, very nice kisses, not rushed. She didnt comment on it. I felt pleasure, I thought she liked it too.

I left.

The next day I texted her that I enjoyed everything and would like to invite her for the weekend to go out and offered her to pick her up etc, that I am go to visit a city and will be back for the night to spend time with her.

Her answer was devastating, kind of. Is it? I can not be any more unsure, that is where I need an opinion from you guys:

"Hi, thank you for your lovly words and your offer. By the way you are not the only you asking me. But I am busy tomorrow and on a birthday party the next day. Have a great and successful time in <City>"

No "sorry", no suggestions for another day. Nothing. I answered, with no pushing what so ever:

"Ok, I understand. I am happy that you could wake interest in you. I was a bit rushed I know."

I ended the message with a questions about a trivial personal detail, so that she could answer and maybe build in anything that enlightens me about her feelings for me.

No answer for 2 full days now. I can see her being online in the messenger a lot.
Can't stop thinking about her, having many questions. Intending to message her tomorrow asking her to meet up next weekend.

Is she already ghosting me? Did I miss her real intentions for the night? What do you think?

[Andrina]

23 minutes ago, Giotemantiker said:

Over the time she told us that she often goes to this bar, alone, and waits for men to approch her. She also said, that every time she's there she is kissed by them. And one time she hooked up with one of them.

So a woman who regularly shares bodily intimacy with a stranger and brags about it is appealing to you? If your goal is one and done, that's your decision. 

She didn't care what you thought of her, so she had diarrhea of the mouth.

Nobody can speak of her intentions. Only she knows. What is factual is her idiotic lack of common sense about safety, allowing a stranger inside her home. And your lack of common sense that you assume you won't get an STD from a woman who has a higher risk of them, versus someone who dates for longterm potential, and behaves in a way to achieve that goal.

35 minutes ago, Giotemantiker said:

No answer for 2 full days now. I can see her being online in the messenger a lot.
Can't stop thinking about her, having many questions. Intending to message her tomorrow asking her to meet up next weekend.

Double asking when she said no to a date and didn't reply to your last text shows your low self-worth. The ball is now in her court, and she hasn't lobbed back. Take a hint. Your first assumption was correct in that she'd suggest an alternate date if she was in fact interested. Work on your self-worth, and you will then likely believe you deserve a higher quality woman.

[Giotemantiker]

17 minutes ago, Andrina said:

So a woman who regularly shares bodily intimacy with a stranger and brags about it is appealing to you? If your goal is one and done, that's your decision. 

She didn't care what you thought of her, so she had diarrhea of the mouth.

Nobody can speak of her intentions. Only she knows. What is factual is her idiotic lack of common sense about safety, allowing a stranger inside her home. And your lack of common sense that you assume you won't get an STD from a woman who has a higher risk of them, versus someone who dates for longterm potential, and behaves in a way to achieve that goal.

Double asking when she said no to a date and didn't reply to your last text shows your low self-worth. The ball is now in her court, and she hasn't lobbed back. Take a hint. Your first assumption was correct in that she'd suggest an alternate date if she was in fact interested. Work on your self-worth, and you will then likely believe you deserve a higher quality woman.

Thanks!

Well, she was appealing to me before she told about her bar experiences.
And yes, it was not something I wanted to here from her, but hey, it's her good right to give it a try before meeting me. I can't judge her for that. She is still a nice person.

Yes I spoke about why she is trusting me that much when inviting me in. But in the situation, it felt like it was a good sign of sympathy. Now, maybe it was just that is a "normal" thing for her. I dont know, but what I know is that she is not sexually active and had not many men in bed - or a good liar. I think STD is not a topic here.

I know, double asking is stupid. I usually don't do that at all and running after women is not my style, but the little hope that she just didn't think about pointing to an alternative arrangement could make me do it anyway. You cant argue to better be sure about it than staying in the dark. She has all the options to say no to me, instead just denying on a specific date. She could have answered: "I am not interested in you" - but she did not. Doesn't that also tell something?

To put her into being in a lower quality woman is too early I think. I don't know her, for sure, but shouldn't I find out to finally put her aside as the woman she appears to be right now?

Is your final advise to not message her at all and give up? Wait it out? Isn't giving up too earler a sign of low confidence? I also made the experience that staying in touch can lead to extremly happy times and relationships.

[Batya33]

I agree with Andrina -she is not a person of character and integrity who would share what she shared with a complete stranger then invite him into her home. Or at least -she enjoys the attention from random men pursuing her and kissing her and loves kissing and telling as some sort of look how attractive and desirable I am that strange men want to kiss me all the time. Ick.

[Giotemantiker]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I agree with Andrina -she is not a person of character and integrity who would share what she shared with a complete stranger then invite him into her home.

Thanks!

I agree that it did not put her into a good light. But let's assume I changed her mind of acting that day, and she accepts that this is not what she really wants to do but did by her lack of experience. She had a long relationship, missed out doing stuff like that completely, religious backgrounds, young mother, cut off from own family...
I could think off that she found her way to gain experience out of desperate times.

But putting that aside, what bothers me more is how to find out where this could be leading to in manner - and still being polite - while not acting like a fool at the same time 🙂

Let's assume I can not let it be as it is: What are right words, when is the right time, what is the right thing to do to calm myself down and get the info I am missing out at this point?

Don't get me wrong, I still agree that not answering me at all is a strong sign of no further interest. And if that is the case, I am fine with it, I can handle it. What I can not handle that easily is this unclear situation. After what we went through that night, how can a woman just not think about it like I do? Is she uncertain how to correctly come out with details? Humans are not able to dump stuff like this like it was nothing - even if it was all fake and made up. Which I highly doubt.

[Batya33]

It's not unclear -she didn't accept your invitation -let alone with enthusiasm -and gave you a polite brush off.  Also why in the world do you think you -a complete stranger -would somehow convince her to change her behavior that dramatically? Seems a bit presumptuous to me.

[Giotemantiker]

She couldn't accept my invitation. I see a difference there, don't you?
What if I asked her for the next weekend and she agreed on it? She didnt say or text anything that clearly excludes this yet?

Maybe because I am the first guy telling her that it's a strange behavior and at the same time not taking advantage knowing about it? Speculations, I know. But she looked regretfully.

[Batya33]

5 minutes ago, Giotemantiker said:

She couldn't accept my invitation. I see a difference there, don't you?
What if I asked her for the next weekend and she agreed on it? She didnt say or text anything that clearly excludes this yet?

Maybe because I am the first guy telling her that it's a strange behavior and at the same time not taking advantage knowing about it? Speculations, I know. But she looked regretfully.

I'm sorry I just cannot relate.  A woman who wants to date you will suggest an alternative or at least say how sorry she is she is busy and she hopes to keep in touch - she signed off with a see ya phrase.  Looking regretful when a stranger gives you unsolicited advice is fairly typical. Doesn't mean she's considering any change -why should she -she enjoys the attention and enjoys bragging about it.  

You don't want the standard of "clearly exclude" -especially as a first impression.  You want someone who is all in -who is enthusiastic about seeing you again.  She is not and she is enthusiastic about strange men pursuing her to kiss her at a bar.  She even goes to this bar alone and passively waits for men to approach her and kiss and or feel her up.  Really?  This is how she enjoys spending her free time?  Maybe she also gets free drinks/food or more if she provides more than a kiss. Move on.

[waffle]

2 hours ago, Giotemantiker said:

I (41M) met a fine woman (32) a few days ago.

What exactly is "fine" about her?  I'm guessing she is attractive.

[greendots]

Granted, I'd rather you seek a lovely lass who is interested in you and has similar values to you. But if you really want to pursue her, look at it from a different angle.

Every time this girl goes to that bar, that man you met earlier on asks to kiss her and she acquiesces. She's used to other men asking her out, wanting intimacy of sorts under whatever pretenses. Ergo, why you doing something similar doesn't work.

Be different.

 

[Giotemantiker]

Just now, waffle said:

What exactly is "fine" about her?  I'm guessing she is attractive.

attractive, deeply minded, can articulate, not superficial - even if some points she made speak the opposite.

We spend 6 hours talking, so I suppose you can say we crossed the easy & simple topics by far, allowing me to classify her a little.

[Giotemantiker]

9 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I'm sorry I just cannot relate.  A woman who wants to date you will suggest an alternative or at least say how sorry she is she is busy and she hopes to keep in touch - she signed off with a see ya phrase.  Looking regretful when a stranger gives you unsolicited advice is fairly typical. Doesn't mean she's considering any change -why should she -she enjoys the attention and enjoys bragging about it.  

You don't want the standard of "clearly exclude" -especially as a first impression.  You want someone who is all in -who is enthusiastic about seeing you again.  She is not and she is enthusiastic about strange men pursuing her to kiss her at a bar.  She even goes to this bar alone and passively waits for men to approach her and kiss and or feel her up.  Really?  This is how she enjoys spending her free time?  Maybe she also gets free drinks/food or more if she provides more than a kiss. Move on.

I fully agree. Still, I deny believing to tell all that by only one (1) text message!
It's not that she is doing this for a long time, it's what happened to her over the the past few weeks.

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, Giotemantiker said:

attractive, deeply minded, can articulate, not superficial - even if some points she made speak the opposite.

We spend 6 hours talking, so I suppose you can say we crossed the easy & simple topics by far, allowing me to classify her a little.

Isn't it a wee bit superficial to put oneself on display at a bar and react with glee to men who focus on your superficial qualities? Then brag about it?

[Batya33]

2 minutes ago, Giotemantiker said:

I fully agree. Still, I deny believing to tell all that by only one (1) text message!
It's not that she is doing this for a long time, it's what happened to her over the the past few weeks.

It's not about whether it was one message or fifty.  If she wanted to go on a date with you she would want you to know that clearly so you wouldn't move on to other options.  

[Giotemantiker]

9 minutes ago, greendots said:

Granted, I'd rather you seek a lovely lass who is interested in you and has similar values to you. But if you really want to pursue her, look at it from a different angle.

Every time this girl goes to that bar, that man you met earlier on asks to kiss her and she acquiesces. She's used to other men asking her out, wanting intimacy of sorts under whatever pretenses. Ergo, why you doing something similar doesn't work.

Be different.

 

Thank you. I understand.
Didn't it work out for me quite good? - even by not behaving like she is used to? We ended up at hers and it was me leaving her that night, not the other way round.

[Batya33]

4 minutes ago, Giotemantiker said:

Thank you. I understand.
Didn't it work out for me quite good? - even by not behaving like she is used to? We ended up at hers and it was me leaving her that night, not the other way round.

I don't think anything worked out.  You met a woman who bragged about other men pursuing her and how she reacted.  She invited you -a stranger-into her home - then declined to go on a proper date with you and wished you well in life, essentially. I'm not sure what you think worked out -that you met a woman who had fun talking to you for a couple of hours? Sure if that was your goal.  But you say your goal is to take her out on a date and see her again.  She is not interested at this time in seeing you again.  She knows you are and if in the future she is interested -perhaps when she's too lazy to go a couple of blocks to a different bar and display her body cause she's worn out her welcome at that bar- she'll text you, ok?

Good luck -I don't think you want any input other than yes ask her out again yes she might be interested yes she might be interested in ending her MO at the bar.    

[Giotemantiker]

3 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

Isn't it a wee bit superficial to put oneself on display at a bar and react with glee to men who focus on your superficial qualities? Then brag about it?

It is! And still it is really the only one thing I can remind that made her look like it. And yes, it's an important one, I know. She did not brag about it in any way. Believe it or not, she said it - yes - but did not really feel comfortable while doing so. That's my point, couldn't she also regret doing it like I found out on our way to her flat? I really asked her out about it, because it bothered me. There was no time she looked proud of it - it was something in between "I let it happen" and "it didnt work out for me"

[Giotemantiker]

2 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I don't think anything worked out.  You met a woman who bragged about other men pursuing her and how she reacted.  She invited you -a stranger-into her home - then declined to go on a proper date with you and wished you well in life, essentially. I'm not sure what you think worked out -that you met a woman who had fun talking to you for a couple of hours? Sure if that was your goal.  But you say your goal is to take her out on a date and see her again.  She is not interested at this time in seeing you again.  She knows you are and if in the future she is interested -perhaps when she's too lazy to go a couple of blocks to a different bar and display her body cause she's worn out her welcome at that bar- she'll text you, ok?

Good luck -I don't think you want any input other than yes ask her out again yes she might be interested yes she might be interested in ending her MO at the bar.    

Don't be so harsh. I appreciate your advise. And I think I'll wait for any answer. My deep thinking about her will wear off and maybe she'll suprise me the next days. Or maybe not. Then leaving a mark of uncertainty...

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Giotemantiker said:

It is! And still it is really the only one thing I can remind that made her look like it. And yes, it's an important one, I know. She did not brag about it in any way. Believe it or not, she said it - yes - but did not really feel comfortable while doing so. That's my point, couldn't she also regret doing it like I found out on our way to her flat? I really asked her out about it, because it bothered me. There was no time she looked proud of it - it was something in between "I let it happen" and "it didnt work out for me"

Oh I said brag because anyone who wants to share that information with a stranger presumably takes pride in it -bragging.  You have no idea if this stranger was actually proud or not -this is what it means to be a stranger.  

She might regret it but since the benefits to her outweigh the downsides she has no reason to stop.  My sense is these men buy her drinks, food, other stuff and she likes the attention to her physical features/body too much to stop.  She didn't "let it happen" -please -she had the choice not to go to a bar, choice not to display herself to see who would approach, she had the choice to not interact with whoever.  

It all depends on how much you value yourself -if you think you have to settle for someone you have to ask out again because the first time you got the brush off and settle for someone who plays kissy face at bars with various strangers then you do you - maybe it's worth it to you or maybe you like the challenge of chasing someone you have to convince to change.  You do you.

[Giotemantiker]

12 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

It's not about whether it was one message or fifty.  If she wanted to go on a date with you she would want you to know that clearly so you wouldn't move on to other options.  

Good point.

[Batya33]

1 minute ago, Giotemantiker said:

Don't be so harsh. I appreciate your advise. And I think I'll wait for any answer. My deep thinking about her will wear off and maybe she'll suprise me the next days. Or maybe not. Then leaving a mark of uncertainty...

I think I'm telling it like it is.  I think you're having a grand time rationalizing and coming up with wild theories to explain why she declined your invitation.  Good luck!  When I was looking for a relationship I never "waited" for someone to decide a no or a lukewarm maybe would transform into a yes.  I moved on to find someone enthusiastic about going on a date with me.  But that's just me.  

[Giotemantiker]

8 minutes ago, Batya33 said:

I think I'm telling it like it is.  I think you're having a grand time rationalizing and coming up with wild theories to explain why she declined your invitation.  Good luck!  When I was looking for a relationship I never "waited" for someone to decide a no or a lukewarm maybe would transform into a yes.  I moved on to find someone enthusiastic about going on a date with me.  But that's just me.  

Ok. But seriously. Do you think it can be a good idea - just to end speculating - to clearly ask her what is going on like "Do you want to go out with me at all?" - I am a person that can better live with a clear yes or no instead open ended conversations including unanswered questions!

[Batya33]

6 minutes ago, Giotemantiker said:

Ok. But seriously. Do you think it can be a good idea - just to end speculating - to clearly ask her what is going on like "Do you want to go out with me at all?" - I am a person that can better live with a clear yes or no instead open ended conversations including unanswered questions!

No -take what she wrote as a no -clear as day.  You're telling yourself stories about why it's not clear.  

[Giotemantiker]

1 minute ago, Batya33 said:

No -take what she wrote as a no -clear as day.  You're telling yourself stories about why it's not clear.  

Thank you. I will not text her, neither block her, just sitting there and taking care of my own business.
You helped me. Have a wonderful day.

If anything goes a different way, I'll let you know. Maybe you are interested whether the story continues 😉 

 

[boltnrun]

4 hours ago, Giotemantiker said:

she told us that she often goes to this bar, alone, and waits for men to approch her. She also said, that every time she's there she is kissed by them. And one time she hooked up with one of them.

Does this mean she had sex with a man who approached her at the bar?