Rock and a Hard Place

[Haeogruvb]

Hi.

 

I've never done this sort of thing before, but I have such a huge problem at the heart of my otherwise fantastic life that I feel the need to start asking for help.

 

And I feel the need to tell the story of my marriage, which I have never fully told to anyone before. I hope this is a good place to do it. It's a long and complex story, to be sure, but I'm told I'm good at writing those. It's also not a typical relationship tale, so my hope is that you'll find it diverting enough that its length will not offend.

 

J and I have been together for over 15 years — five as friends, then five dating, and now over five married. We're both solvent professionals, have a beautiful home and a wonderful daughter. We have always held practically identical worldviews on the vast majority of topics, and share many common interests that we enjoy spending our time together on. Our sex life is somewhat intermittent, but not terrible by any means. There's never been any physical abuse or infidelity between us.

 

I grew up in a highly dysfunctional household, no alcohol or drugs but with constant bickering and screaming anyway, along with a handful of police interventions and emergency room visits. Still have the scars, as does my father. I never really got the chance to become a good person when I was a kid, but once I was an adult I made it my life's goal. I embarked on half a decade of weekly therapy with a good psychologist a few years after growing up, and slowly learned how to be something akin to a normal, stable human being. Along the way I learned to swallow my pride, among many other things, and now have a very amicable (if a little distant) relationship with my parents. I'm on excellent terms with both of my siblings.

 

J and her girlfriend S had been my best friends for years, but we had eventually drifted apart, largely because I had found J to be too overbearing and offensive to put up with any more. About a year later, J contacted me, heartbroken because S, who had recently moved to a different part of the country, had broken up with her. I started spending time with her again, trying to console her and help her put her life back together.

 

J started hitting on me during this time, clearly a rebound effect. I considered this inappropriate and resisted J's advances, but because I was attracted to her I also never asked her to stop. This combination did nothing but intensify her resolve.

 

Eight months later, I finally gave in. We were getting along great, I was falling in love with her and was ready for a change in my life, which I knew she would bring, by force if she had to. J told S about our relationship almost immediately, and then told me that S was okay with it. This was a lie.

 

As it turned, J was still with S, and had been hiding this fact from me the whole time. What J led me to believe was a budding relationship was actually an affair. Though her true relationship was long-distance and very much on the rocks, J had surreptitiously continued it for the better part a year. Her situation with S deteriorating rapidly over her continuing infidelities, J finally admitted the truth to me one night, more than a month after we started sharing a bed.

 

This revelation was nothing short of devastating to me. The three of us had been extremely close for almost the entire time we'd known each other, inseparable for years on end. I had practically lived with them, gone on countless road trips with them, contributed designs for their wedding rings. That I should be a source of damage to a relationship I had spent so much time supporting — celebrating even — was more than I could bear.

 

What followed is something I've not spoken of to anyone in over a decade. I went into a fugue state, barely able to speak or move for close to an hour. J took advantage of me sexually during this time, apparently thinking it was what I needed from her. I found this appalling, but I felt completely disconnected from my body and unable to do anything about it. When I failed to react, she got frustrated and rolled away.

 

After about ten minutes I managed get up and found my voice, but all I could say, dazed and leaning against her nightstand in the dark, was to ask how this had happened, that it was like all the goodness and light had drained from the world. J, shocked, asked me what was going on. When I was unable to answer, she asked if she had just raped me. A moment she observed, quietly, that it was the kind of question that if it had to be asked, then one already knew the answer.

 

I started to leave but J was desperate for me to forgive her right the on the spot. She offered to do anything, to break up with S and to get together with me for real, to be my girlfriend for real.

 

I should have broken it off immediately and then tried to find some way to apologize to S, but in deep pain and still in love, I accepted J's offer. The next day, recovered, she took me shopping for some new clothes. Afterwards, she casually asked me never to speak of it again to anyone, apparently trying to buy my silence concerning the accidental rape with blue jeans and some nice shirts. I agreed, if only because it wasn't something I wanted to talk about to anyone anyway.

 

J eventually worked up the courage to formally break up with S. And for a few, short wonderful months, J and I were getting along again. We were in the bliss of a new relationship, this time a real one.

 

Our happiness was not to last. S refused to speak to me again for years over the betrayal, even as J patched things up with her and continued a very active (but I believe genuinely platonic) friendship. Because of S's hatred of me for "stealing her girlfriend" (which J was only too happy to allow her to believe), I was expected to be pretend to be elsewhere during J's long spur-of-the-moment phone calls with her, which were at first heart-wrenching (J putting S on speakerphone whenever S started weeping) but eventually just casual. Even long after J and I had moved in together, I had to disappear entirely whenever S was in town.

 

This constant reminder of the misdeeds which had forged our union was deeply painful for me, but when I asked J to bring it to an end she responded with hostility. Thus did our relationship begin to erode, right from the very start.

 

I was a few years into my therapy at when J and I hooked up, and doing well. The last thing I wanted in the world then was another relationship of constant bickering and screaming, but I had known little else up to then. Even the endless fighting I'd witnessed for years between J and S (which was almost always J's fault) had seemed relatively tame to me, and J in any case now seemed much better than she had been before. I thought I knew was I was getting into, and that I could handle it.

 

I was wrong. Once the honeymoon period faded, J's attitude towards me soon became even more overtly hostile than it had been with S, and the relationship would have probably ended quickly had she not deliberately gone off birth control in order to get pregnant (without telling me), six months after we got together.

 

Still caring about her as I did, I could hardly ask her to get an abortion — she'd already had one in a much earlier relationship and she had described it as the single most traumatic event of her life. But neither could I fathom subjecting an innocent child to being raised by her alone. So I stayed.

 

And I kept staying.

 

And I'm still staying now.

 

For the first eight years of our relationship (dating then marriage), J was verbally abusive, condescending, overtly controlling and critical of my every act. Early on she started throw my things away (including valuable antiques and family heirlooms) while I wasn't around, for no other reason than that she didn't "need" them and that they were taking up too much space. She would speak ill of me to everyone we knew, both in front of me and when I wasn't around. She got into huge fights herself with all of my existing friends from the start, until after just a couple of years I literally didn't have any left. I avoided making any new ones for five long years after that.

 

I would ultimately win every hours-long conflict with her through stubborn reason and the hard-earned endurance for such things that my childhood had granted me. Once exhausted, she'd she'd see the error of her ways and apologize sincerely, but then she'd be yelling at me again (frequently about the exact same things) a day or two later.

 

To be sure, I had to make plenty of apologies of my own during this time — having been trained from birth to fight back when attacked, I did not typically maintain my composure, though thanks to my therapy I nearly always recovered it. There were many lines that I drew for myself, and did not cross even when enraged at her. As you can well imagine, however, the fact that our kid spent the most formative years of her life watching her parents yell at each other just as mine had (and often trying to stop them, just as I had) is one of my deepest regrets in life.

 

At J's insistence, I chose to give up my existing career to go to college full time during the first three years we were together, taking summer classes to graduate early. She used her superior financial position in those circumstances to try to dominate me on a daily basis, berating me on multiple occasions for using too much toilet paper in the bathroom and for purchasing coffee for myself while out on errands, to cite just a couple of examples. She justified this by repeatedly claiming that we were "poor," though between her income as a scientist and my numerous part-time jobs we were firmly in the middle class.

 

J wanted me to become a teacher, in part because her mother had suggested it, having seen that I was good with children. I told J repeatedly that had no interest in such a career, but for half my college career she kept pushing me towards it anyway, to no avail. She made it very clear that I wasn't doing college the way she wanted me to.

 

She constantly complained about the time I had to put in for school, going so far as to compare it to an "affair" to a neighbor on one occasion, even though it was what she herself had demanded of me and something I was succeeding at greatly. Even that very success was a source of ire for her — she insisted repeatedly that straight A's, academic awards and college presidencies were not necessary things to have. (These achievements ultimately led to me getting the kind of job that most people would give their left arm for.)

 

Acknowledging that my studies were if nothing else starting to shift more of the burden of parenting on her, I took to doing my schoolwork throughout the night while she and our daughter slept. This did have the effect of easing her attacks, but not for long.

 

She treated our daughter a bit better, but not by much. She would berate her for the slightest infraction from practically the moment I cut the umbilical cord. Once when our child was one year old, I heard J threaten to smash her against the wall if she didn't cease some offensive activity. On another occasion she snapped at her for almost stepping on J's shoe lying on the kitchen floor. I would always intervene, but the hostilities would never end.

 

I learned around this time from a friend of the family that J was considering getting pregnant again, against my will, in the same manner that she had done before. The friend talked her out of it, calling it a violation of my reproductive rights. J later confessed as much to me of her own accord.

 

On the day of our marriage, my bride-to-be showed up at the house a couple of hours before the wedding and screamed at me in front of all my friends and family, because I had forgotten to give our daughter a nap.

 

In the first solo conversation we'd had face-to-face in half a decade, S and I finally buried the hatchet later that evening, at the reception. I told her part of the story of how J and I had really gotten together, sparing her the worst of it. Married herself now, S had had a few drinks and was pretty emotional over the wedding, but I think she understood. We're still not really friends anymore, but we get along perfectly fine now on the rare occasions that we see each other. Her wife and her are still together, and now have two kids of their own.

 

Eight years in, things were at an all-time low with J. I had started my legal career the year before and was now making considerably more than she herself was, but J still took every opportunity to lambast me for spending money on anything at all, even though our finances could hardly have been in better shape.

 

I did all the work on getting a mortgage for our first house (an bona fide dream home) while she was in Spain with a couple of friends, marathon shopping during the day and calling me at night to rip into me about how immature I was for finally getting the tattoo I'd been planning for the past year, to commemorate my recent achievements. I heard later that she was complaining the whole time to her friends that I was somehow "forcing" her to buy a home that she hated, which (having seen the house) they both found ridiculous.

 

By a few months later hostilities were at a peak. I told my wife than I needed some space, and I started sleeping on a futon in my study. I was not myself hostile about it, and indeed went out of my way to treat her with respect and kindness during this time, but that backfired and drove her off the deep end altogether.

 

After about ten days of this she took my daughter to a luxury hotel in another state against my will, claiming she needed "space." There was no recent direct conflict that precipitated this — it was simply to get back at me for sleeping apart form her. She picked a fight with me from the very start about it via text message. She went with a good mutual friend, C (one of her Spain trip companions), in whom I had reluctantly confided concerning our marital woes a few months before.

 

C, a divorcee who had recently been through a lot of heartbreak, was having a very difficult moment with her ex, whom she was going to this hotel to have a hard talk with. C knew nothing of J's motives at the onset — she indeed thought J was tagging along to be supportive in a time of need, and to let their kids play together at the attached water park. Instead, J abandoned C to try to deal with her ex and all three kids at the same time, while J prosecuted her fight with me. J took a hard situation for C and turned it into a disaster by negligently dumping our dirty laundry all over it, for no other reason than to punish me.

 

C sharply intervened with J afterwards, read the texts, and condemned J's behavior. Over the course of a long conversation shortly thereafter, she managed to finally open J's eyes to the fact that C (and many other people we knew) would give nearly anything to have the life J so thoroughly took for granted. According to J, it was at this time that J realized that she was on the verge of losing me, and that life would be much, much harder for her without me.

 

Her personality appeared to change overnight. The shift was so sudden that I can still pin down the exact date that it happened — April 8, 2015. Suddenly J was kind to me, warm, tolerant, respectful, deferential even. She went out of her way to do nice things for me and expressed no objections to any of the multitude of things I did that would have always provoked criticism from her in the past, however unjustified that criticism might have been.

 

And she stayed that way.

 

At first I was overjoyed. It was like a genie had come down out of the sky and granted my heart's desire. For close to a year I was floating on a cloud. After a while, though, the fog of constant stress finally gone from my brain, I came to understand three important facts:

 

• First and foremost, while J has changed her behavior towards me, she is still treating our daughter the same as she always did, though still not as bad as she treated me. I'm still constantly having to intervene and calmly tell J to back off and tone it down. I had to ask her yet again to stop calling our kid an "A**h***" as recently as yesterday. She listens respectfully and acknowledges my concerns constructively, but still hasn't managed to actually do anything about it.
  

• Second, J has repeatedly stated that it was her fear of being alone that at last allowed her to appreciate that I was a positive force I was in her life. I am not of the opinion that fear can truly effect positive change, and indeed she has recently commented to me that on the inside she's still very much the same as she's always been — she just knows now that mistreating me isn't something that she can get away with.
  

• And finally, at some point during the years and years of constant abuse she hurled at both me and my kid, I stopped being in love with J.
  

Over two years later, that's still where we are. Mind you, things are dramatically better than they were — I have friends again, I'm hardly ever stressed, I've lost weight in a good way and have a stable and genuinely happy family. My daughter is smart, witty and kind, and very much the light of my life. And J has an active and pleasant social life, not getting into conflicts with others anywhere near as much as she used to. Everything is better than it has ever been, for all of us.

 

It's a thing I never dared hope was possible, the single greatest event that has ever happened to us.

 

But I don't love my wife.

 

I do respect her, and admire the progress she has made, so much like my own earlier in my life. I'm still attracted to her physically, much of the time. I'm very concerned for her well-being. I like her, even, now more than ever.

 

But I don't love her. I haven't for many years and I'm quite sure I never will again. I'm pretty sure I don't want to love her again. And I don't like living with her either. I care about her a great deal, but were it not for our daughter I would have filed for divorce ages ago.

 

But I haven't told J that. Every other problem of consequence that I've had with her I've articulated to her very well, but never this one.

 

That's not just because it would hurt her a lot, the idea of which by itself pains me tremendously. It's not just because having divorced parents would be hard on our child. Those things are both horrible, but by themselves they're at least survivable.

 

It's because if I tell her that, this amazing state of being I fought so hard to achieve for all of us (and that she's fought for too) simply shatters.

 

Two years ago, a couple of weeks after after J's revelation about my positive (or at least "anti-negative") role in her life, she received a surprise diagnosis of Generalized Anxiety Disorder after a sleep study. It explained a lot. It basically means she spends most of her time being terrified of nearly everything, internally obsessing over all the imagined hardships that any and all events in the present might cause in the future. This fear gets internalized and comes out as unreasoning anger. It's a condition that's nothing short of disabling.

 

I've been telling myself for eight years (somewhat ridiculously) that as soon as my kid grows up and moves out, I'm out the door as well. But that date is still a decade away, at best. I'll be well on my way to old and grey by then. And in the meantime I'm just acting, playing the role of a loving husband when in truth all that I really am is a good friend, and a caring father.

 

And the thing is, she can't tell that I'm pretending! Not one bit. Like both of my siblings, I have a strong facility for acting, and this is a role I've had many long years to perfect. Any discrepancies J notices, she just chalks up to her condition, which already had her thinking the worst of me in every way she could imagine since practically the day we hooked up. I could dispel the illusion with four words at any moment, and it would catch her utterly off guard, to terrible effect. It's a strange kind of innocence, but there it is, and for all that she's put me through I still don't want to do that to her, not only for her own sake (she can't help her disability, after all) but because of what she would do to us.

 

One thing that's always topped her list of "most terrifying things ever" is the prospect of my breaking up with her, a terror which you will note ultimately enabled her transformation in attitude. She would confide towards the end of every third argument that she assumed the whole time that I was about to break up with her. She still does that today, on the very rare occasions that we still get into it.

 

If I were to so much as suggest a temporary separation, J would absolutely lose her mind. All bloody hell would break loose as her only enduring motivation for civility evaporated. It would be ugly again, and this time it would not get better. My daughter would be in the crossfire for the rest of her childhood and then some. This great (and so far successful) experiment of a functional, stable family would end, and be replaced with wretched misery.

 

I'm living a lie, to be sure, but it has been the most beneficial lie ever told. Things may not be perfect but because of this one lie my wife is happy, my daughter's happy, and my own life is truly good for the first time since it began. It's nearly everything I've ever wanted — the best kid a parent could hope for, dream house, dream job, the universal admiration of my peers and colleagues and the respect of my spouse. We're talking about expanding the home, to build a great and beautiful new master bedroom with a million-dollar view. We're talking about adopting.

 

But I don't love my wife.

 

So what do I do?

[Clio]

DON'T adopt a second child. As for your marriage, make a choice and own it. You stayed on while she was abusing you to no end yet you want to leave now that things got better and she stopped. It sounds like due to your childhood past her dysfunction was what kept you there and now that it's dropped, you feel uncomfortable and empty. You present her like this all mighty ogre yet it was you who enabled her during all steps of the way. Surely, the years of therapy must have made you aware of your role in all this...

 

It sounds like you want to divorce her. Given that you should have dropped her from the very start it IS valid. However, given your narration I can't help wondering whether this is also your way to bring back the ogre you seem so comfortable and familiar with...

 

Obviously, you should have divorced her a long time ago. Given what you chose to endure the timing appears suspect. No matter what is really going on within you, you need to stop the abuse to your daughter at all costs. However, that requires that you drop the victim mentality. You have been making choices all the way. You have had an equal part in passively keeping the dysfunction going in your life.

 

My question is whether this is you really considering to leave it all behind and start fresh having learned from your mistakes or is this your way to start the "familiar" drama/dysfunction all over again? Al Turtle, an American marriage counsellor, used to have a webpage where he described "master-slave" relationship dynamics. If you can find it, it might be worth a read...

 

There are no easy answers to your problem. It is very scary how our upbringing can define our whole life course and how challenging it is to break out of the mould. I want to believe that it can be done. Good luck.

[Haeogruvb]

I fought my battles and I won, Clio. Take your victim-blaming elsewhere — there's no victim here for you to blame.

 

Nobody's the master of me, no ogre and certainly no troll.

[LaHermes]

Wig. You came on here to ask

 

But I don't love my wife.

 

So what do I do?

 

Could I just remark that the last poster is not a troll. People come on this forum seeking advice or feedback. You may not like what you hear but posters can only go by what you set out in your post, and reply accordingly.

Sometimes the poster replying to you hits a nerve.

 

I keep seeing the words "fighting" and "battles" and you were taught to fight back since birth.

 

No relationship should be a battlefield. It isn't a military zone.

 

A fight can only occur if both parties engage. If one refuses to engage, and refuses to take a fighting stance, there can be NO battle.

 

You ask "what do I do".

 

So, what do YOU think you should do, Wig?

[Haeogruvb]

Hi, LaHemeres,

 

Thank you for your post. I can see that Clio is a long-standing community member like yourself, which I certainly am not. You may be more familiar with her than I am. You're certainly more familiar with the way things are done around here. I cannot speak to things she may have said or done in the past, but in this instance, I found her approach to be unreasonable.

 

Clio starts off by issuing orders to me in all caps regarding a situation she clearly has not taken the time to understand. (My wife's attitude towards my child is overly harsh, but the very reason I've stayed so long is to be a check on that — I am able to prevent it from rising to the level of abuse. If I wasn't around, however, I wouldn't be.) Clio then proceeds to overtly blame me for everything that's happened, while conspicuously failing to even acknowledge the principle concern I asked for advice on — that I've fallen out of love with my wife.

 

Clio accuses me of having a "victim mentality," apparently simply because I've been abused in my life and have the courage to speak about it. She states that it is my own fault the abuse happened (I guess staying to protect my child is not a good enough reason for her), because I "enabled" all of it by staying (the classic fallacy of the victim blamer), and even goes so far as to suggest that I am my wife's slave.

 

She acknowledges that there are no easy answers but still doles out harsh judgment quickly enough.

 

I cannot agree with you that she is not a troll. For this post at the least, she was.

 

You yourself offer criticism to me too, but that's perfectly fine — it is clearly the constructive kind, the kind of thing I came here for. I don't see the kind of quick condemnation from you that Clio offers.

 

And you're right, no relationship should be a battle zone. I said the same words to J more times than I can possibly count.

 

When you're under attack, you have three choices — you can stand and be harmed, you can flee, or you can defend yourself. I chose to defend, and eventually the abuse ended. Given the circumstances I outlined, do you think failing to resist — simply allowing the abuse to happen — would have been better?

 

Should I have fled? It's not like I, a student with a psych record as long as your arm, would have won a custody battle against J, a scientist with no record at all. J would have been left raising our kid by herself, and all the more stressed out because of it.

 

You seem to imply that the battle itself was the problem, rather than the abuse. Was that your intent?

 

As far as what I think I should do, I have no idea. It seems intractable — I'm a prisoner in paradise, with a daughter to protect. I've solved a great many enormous problems over the years but I have no solution for this one. That's why I came here. I'm open to suggestions.

[Unreasonable]

So what do I do?

If you don't feel a pressing need to get divorced right this very second, go to couples counselling. And be honest there, you need to drop the charade. Certainly your situation cannot possibly improve by you living a lie.

[Haeogruvb]

Clio, LaHermes suggests that I overreacted to your post, and if that's true I apologize. Your response initially struck me as unnecessarily harsh and condescending, but I do see the possibility now that your intention might truly have been to help. You do appear to have misunderstood some of the crucial details of my post. On further consideration, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and engage with what you said.

 

DON'T adopt a second child.

 

Starting off with a command in all caps is a good way to set a hostile tone for a post. That's our choice to make, not yours. There's no abuse going on in our family right now, and there hasn't been for years. If I can overcome my internal struggle concerning may wife (whom as I noted continues to improve herself) adoption may still be an option.

 

As for your marriage, make a choice and own it.

 

Such is my intent. I'm here to ask for advice on what that choice should be, or indeed whether I even have one at all. I can't leave her, but I don't love her. Any actual suggestions on that problem?

 

]You stayed on while she was abusing you to no end yet you want to leave now that things got better and she stopped.

 

Because now that the abuse has ended, I've realized that I don't love her anymore and I don't want to live with her. Removal of stress can grant a lot of perspective. As I explained in great detail, I might wish I could leave, but it is not an option.

 

It sounds like due to your childhood past her dysfunction was what kept you there and now that it's dropped, you feel uncomfortable and empty.

 

I have no idea where you got this from — it comes off as being made up from whole cloth. As I said, I stayed to protect my daughter. As I said, the last thing I wanted was dysfunction. As I said, now that the dysfunction is gone, I'm happier than I've ever been in my life.

 

You present her like this all mighty ogre yet it was you who enabled her during all steps of the way. Surely, the years of therapy must have made you aware of your role in all this...

 

This is victim blaming, a well-established causal fallacy. And no, in the five years I spent with my psychologist, it was never suggested that I enabled my abusive parents by defending myself against them or by failing to run away from home. I stayed with J to protect my daughter, because I could not see a better choice.

 

While I have certainly made my own mistakes (and talk about them openly in my post), I fail to see any mechanism that makes me responsible for my wife's actions, which I spent the better part of a decade trying to stop. It was an endeavor in which I was ultimately successful.

 

It sounds like you want to divorce her.

 

I wish I could, but as I said I also want very much to keep our lives sane and stable, so that's not an option. I'm not here trying to decide whether to leave her, I trying to figure out what to do in a situation where I don't love her but can't leave her.

 

Given that you should have dropped her from the very start it IS valid.

 

I acknowledged that I should have dropped her at the very start, yes. Despite everything I've been through, though, I'm glad that I didn't, because now I have a daughter who is the best thing that's ever happened to me. She is worth all of it and them some.

 

I saw a bit of graffiti a while back that really resonated with me: "The wrong choices lead you to the right places."

 

However, given your narration I can't help wondering whether this is also your way to bring back the ogre you seem so comfortable and familiar with...

 

Please don't call my wife an ogre. Just because I list her misdeeds doesn't mean I think she's a monster. You're making that value judgment here, not me. She has a disability, one that she's trying very hard to overcome. While I am obviously familiar with her problems, I cannot see how you think I was comfortable with the abuse. Bringing it back is not an option for me, and I made that very clear.

 

Obviously, you should have divorced her a long time ago.

 

I acknowledged that I should have dropped her at the very start, but you completely ignore the only reason I stayed afterwards. A divorce would have given her custody of my daughter, and I would no longer be able to intervene to prevent my daughter's abuse. Why does this detail not matter to you?

 

Given what you chose to endure the timing appears suspect.

 

I'm not certain what you're implying, but like I said, I only realized I didn't love her anymore when my life became less stressed and I was able think more clearly.

 

That's a very common thing — you don't solve all your life's problems while you're in crisis, you work on them when things have calmed down and you have time to consider them.

 

I don't know why you would be suspicious of the timing — it's kind of textbook.

 

No matter what is really going on within you, you need to stop the abuse to your daughter at all costs.

 

That is what I do, Clio. It's my whole reason for being there.

 

J's attitude towards our kid is still overly harsh, which is a problem, but it doesn't rise to the level of abuse. This is principally because I am there to intervene, both directly and to remind J on a frequent basis of the need to exercise restraint.

 

However, that requires that you drop the victim mentality.

 

Just because I have been abused and can talk about it doesn't mean I have a victim mentality. If you're so certain that I do, provide some some evidence and I'll address it.

 

You have been making choices all the way.

 

After the first few months, there was only one real choice I had left to make. I chose to put my daughter's needs above my own. I've made that choice a thousand times since, and I will keep making it until the day I die.

 

You have had an equal part in passively keeping the dysfunction going in your life.

 

No, I didn't.

 

This is victim blaming again, and moreover you're conflating the past with the present. The dysfunction stopped two years ago, when J decided to stop the abuse. There was nothing passive about my role in the matter — I was trying to get her to stop it the whole time, and my efforts were successful.

 

J acknowledges fully that it was her doing these things, not me. And many others have recognized it too, including her own therapist. Nobody but you seems to think it was in any way my fault.

 

My question is whether this is you really considering to leave it all behind and start fresh having learned from your mistakes or is this your way to start the "familiar" drama/dysfunction all over again?

I never said I was considering that. I in fact said in no uncertain terms that leaving her is not an option, because it would destroy our lives. I said that I don't love my wife anymore, and that I'm stuck with her. That's what I need help with, not whether I should leave her or not.

 

Al Turtle, an American marriage counsellor, used to have a webpage where he described "master-slave" relationship dynamics. If you can find it, it might be worth a read...

 

Maybe you can tell me what on Earth you're talking about first, so I can know what to look for. Why would this strike you as a "Master/Slave" relationship? J has control issues, to be certain, but I was never her whipping boy. I did not allow her to dominate me at any point, though Lord knows she tried...

 

"There are no easy answers to your problem."

 

You seem to have a lot those on offer, however.

 

"It is very scary how our upbringing can define our whole life course and how challenging it is to break out of the mould. I want to believe that it can be done."

 

I did note in my post that one of the things that allowed me to get together with J to begin with (over a decade ago) was that I found her dysfunction relatively tame compared to what I had already been through. So there's a grain of truth to what you're saying here, yes.

 

But by making it your final comment, you seem to present that as the primary reason I'm in this situation now, which is not the case at all. As I described, I did realized my mistake, but by the time I did, J was pregnant and I had a duty of care to my unborn daughter.

 

 

Being punched in the face is not the fault of the person who dares to own the face. I have been the voice of reason in this relationship from the very beginning, and tried everything I could to bring sanity back to it. One of those things was to approach C with the problem of J's abuse, which was a difficult thing for me to do. But it worked.

 

Now I'm left with a different problem altogether, and it's one that in your obsession with victims and blame you seem to have overlooked entirely.

 

I'm stuck with J, but I don't love her anymore.

 

Care to say anything about that?

[Haeogruvb]

If you don't feel a pressing need to get divorced right this very second, go to couples counselling. And be honest there, you need to drop the charade. Certainly your situation cannot possibly improve by you living a lie.

 

Thanks for your comments, Unreasonable. You're correct — I have no intention of getting divorced any time soon, because of the disastrous consequences it would have. Couples counseling is probably a good idea. We've tried several times before but have thus far failed to find a good counselor in our area. I should probably try again.

 

As far as the charade is concerned, it's not something I'm doing lightly. Dropping it would have immediate and serious consequences that need to be considered.

 

If I tell J I don't love her anymore I know full well how she'll react — she'll be crushed, and then she'll declare war, a bitter war that our daughter will be caught up in every day. I do not know of any way to prevent that from happening, especially since my lack of love for her will dramatically reduce any leverage I have once she knows about it.

 

So it seems to me that telling her the truth would be deeply selfish of me. Right now we have a lasting peace in our house. Should I bring that to an end for everyone, just to get closure for my own feelings?

 

Any further thoughts you have would be well-received.

[LaHermes]

Wig.

 

You said:

 

But I don't love her. I haven't for many years and I'm quite sure I never will again. I'm pretty sure I don't want to love her again. And I don't like living with her either.

 

And you asked: What do I do?

 

I honestly do not think any counselling can rectify a loveless marriage.

 

I can understand your fear of World War III breaking out. But we only have one life and this is it. You remarked:

 

I've been telling myself for eight years (somewhat ridiculously) that as soon as my kid grows up and moves out, I'm out the door as well. But that date is still a decade away, at best

 

No one can tell you what to do OP. Only give suggestions.

 

To me, you see, this sound like hell.

 

If I tell J I don't love her anymore I know full well how she'll react — she'll be crushed, and then she'll declare war, a bitter war that our daughter will be caught up in every day. I do not know of any way to prevent that from happening, especially since my lack of love for her will dramatically reduce any leverage I have once she knows about it.

 

Don't think for a moment that your wife is not aware that you don't love her.

 

Finally:

 

"For the first eight years of our relationship (dating then marriage), J was verbally abusive, condescending, overtly controlling and critical of my every act. "

 

 

 

What puzzles me, and forgive me for asking, but was that not enough to make you bail out and not marry her?

 

You deserve better, OP, you probably know that, but it is your call. One life, and this is it.

[Haeogruvb]

Thank you so much for your further thoughts, LaHermes. After having this bottled up for so long, I can hardly express how good it is to just have a conversation with someone about this.

 

I honestly do not think any counselling can rectify a loveless marriage.

 

Well, I'm pretty sure she loves me. She makes it very clear that she adores me, all the time. So it's not a completely loveless marriage.

 

But yeah, you've kind of nailed it. I could go to counseling for the next decade and it probably wouldn't put the love back in my heart. But then again, there's not a rulebook for this. Maybe now that she's kind I could fall in love with her all over again, who knows.

 

No one can tell you what to do OP. Only give suggestions.

 

I absolutely agree, and that's all I'm asking for.

 

To me, you see, this sound like hell.

 

That part is, yeah. But everything else is the opposite. And that's the problem.

 

The thing is, my whole life was Hell before now. J's too, to a large extent. We both started out as broken people, me coming from a childhood of abuse leading to decades of misery, and J filled with anxiety about every conceivable thing, every waking moment of her life and even while she slept, leading to decades of misery.

 

I'm stable now. I've put my demons to rest. I stand on my own two feet on top of the world, in nearly every respect but this one.

 

J too has made tremendous progress. Right after her breakthrough in her behavior, learning about her condition allowed her to get treatment for it, and the medication (combined with the fact that the conflict in her life has dropped dramatically) has allowed her to also live something approaching a normal life for the first time. A good life.

 

And our daughter is in much better circumstances than she was before, too — her family went from being dysfunctional to functional, literally overnight.

 

And on top of all of that, my new career has improved our economic situation to no end during this time. Before this, we spent our lives (both before and after we got together) getting into huge fights with our significant others, in crappy little apartments with neglectful landlords and inconsiderate neighbors.

 

Aside from J's lingering issues with our child, we get along very well now, and live in a big house. The whole thing's wired for sound, playing sweet music all day long. There are drinking fountains in our bathrooms.

 

Our friends are physics professors, conductors, aerospace engineers, novelists and high-ranking priests. Our vacations are the stuff of legend, taking us around the globe. We drink champagne like it's water, striking off the tops of the bottles with a sabre. We have lots and lots of parties filled with sunlight, music and laughter.

 

We went from having lives of misery and conflict to lives of celebration and bliss.

 

We're happy. We really are, in a way that most people never get to be.

 

I can't just destroy that over my feelings for my wife not being what they should be. After all all that both her and our child have been through, it would be deeply selfish and cruel of me to take this life away from them. It would be cruel of me to take it away from myself too.

 

Don't think for a moment that your wife is not aware that you don't love her.

 

You don't know her. Her condition is crippling. She certainly suspects that I don't love her, but there's never been a time in her life that she didn't harbor such suspicions. J's always been paranoid that everyone she's been with didn't love her, and that they were ready to leave her at any moment.

 

I bore witness to nearly her entire relationship with S, and it was a major feature of their conflicts as well, even though it was obvious to everyone else that S loved her deeply.

 

All J knows for sure is that I've been very kind and affectionate towards her ever since she stopped the abuse. She can't be absolutely certain that I do love her, but she's also physically incapable of such certainty to begin with. Since she knows this about herself, all she can do is assume that because I seem to love her, it must be true, and her suspicions to the contrary are just the same paranoia that's she's had to live with from the start.

 

As well, her gratitude towards me is tremendous. She treated me like crap for eight years, and she knows it. The fact that I've both stayed with her and treated her well despite all of that goes a long way towards convincing her that I must still love her.

 

She's told me all these things herself, many times. If it sounds bizarre, that's because it is. It's hardly ideal, but it works.

 

"What puzzles me, and forgive me for asking, but was that not enough to make you bail out and not marry her?"

 

Well, I had already been raising a child with her for several years by that point, and marriage offered a lot of economic and social benefits, so there was no reason not to. If you're asking me why I didn't just leave her altogether, see my many comments about our daughter.

 

You deserve better, OP, you probably know that, but it is your call. One life, and this is it.

 

Thank you for your kind words, LaHermes. They're probably more than I deserve after my harsh response to Clio, for which you quite correctly reprimanded me.

 

And yeah, after all J's put me through I do feel that wanting to end it with her is not unreasonable. J herself would probably agree, at least on an intellectual level.

 

It is technically my call, true, but I don't feel I have a moral way out. I won't put my own needs before that of my family. And our happiness is quite literally my life's work, my single greatest accomplishment. To tear it all apart is not an option.

 

So I'm stuck. Hence the title of my post.

 

I didn't come here for advice as to whether to get the divorce that I secretly want. I can't get a divorce.

 

I'm asking for advice on how to cope with this.

[Clio]

Clio, LaHermes suggests that I overreacted to your post, and if that's true I apologize. Your response initially struck me as unnecessarily harsh and condescending, but I do see the possibility now that your intention might truly have been to help. You do appear to have misunderstood some of the crucial details of my post. On further consideration, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and engage with what you said.

English is not my native language and I come from a different continent. I feel that a lot of what you perceived as a harsh and condescending tone is the language barrier in combination with cultural differences in the way people relate with each other in our respective countries. I acknowledge that my post lacked empathy and for that I apologise. I adopted a surgical approach that was totally unproductive. Normally, I abstain from engaging with people with a traumatic past because I do tend to put my foot in my mouth in that aspect.

 

Starting off with a command in all caps is a good way to set a hostile tone for a post. That's our choice to make, not yours. There's no abuse going on in our family right now, and there hasn't been for years. If I can overcome my internal struggle concerning may wife (whom as I noted continues to improve herself) adoption may still be an option.

 

Regarding my tone, see above. I am under no delusion that I can command anyone to do anything. However, I stand by my opinion. I believe that a loveless marriage, no matter how calm things may appear on the surface is not a healthy environment for any child to grow up in and I do feel strongly about this opinion. You stated that you are “quite sure you will never love your life again. You are pretty sure you don't want to love her again.” I believe that children pick up the emotional vibes of their primary caregivers, internalize certain behaviours and when they grow up they perpetuate certain patterns of interaction. Your daughter may not grow up to be abusive like her mother but in my opinion, she will struggle in her romantic relationships in terms of not having a blueprint of what a healthy romantic relationship looks like.

 

 

Such is my intent. I'm here to ask for advice on what that choice should be, or indeed whether I even have one at all. I can't leave her, but I don't love her. Any actual suggestions on that problem?

 

My suggestion is to engage in individual therapy with a professional therapist if you are not doing this at this point in time. Due to your background, your situation is too complex to be tackled by non-expert strangers on the internet. In my opinion, your two choices are to either stay and try to fix your marriage (but then you are “quite sure you will never love your life again. You are pretty sure you don't want to love her again.”) or get a divorce but you say that you “can't leave her”. When stuck like this, in my opinion, you need the help of an expert/ individual therapy to unstuck yourself.

 

 

Because now that the abuse has ended, I've realized that I don't love her anymore and I don't want to live with her. Removal of stress can grant a lot of perspective. As I explained in great detail, I might wish I could leave, but it is not an option.

It IS an option. In my opinion, it’s you who needs to explore more how this could be done in a way that is not hurtful for your daughter. You are basing your reluctance on a series of preconceptions of how your wife will react that may or may not be true.

 

I have no idea where you got this from — it comes off as being made up from whole cloth. As I said, I stayed to protect my daughter. As I said, the last thing I wanted was dysfunction. As I said, now that the dysfunction is gone, I'm happier than I've ever been in my life.

Of course, you did not want dysfunction. Noone does. You did not participate into it intentionally. Neither did your wife. None of it was intentional on either of your parts.

 

This is victim blaming, a well-established causal fallacy. And no, in the five years I spent with my psychologist, it was never suggested that I enabled my abusive parents by defending myself against them or by failing to run away from home. I stayed with J to protect my daughter, because I could not see a better choice.

 

I feel that this was a very unfair interpretation of what I was trying to get at. In my personal opinion (coming from what I see in your writing), you seem to have adopted a victim stance when it comes to your wife. You started off your post by a long description of all the abuse she put you through that would make any reader despise her (I am not saying that you did this intentionally but I am conveying to you how it comes across to a reader). And you insist that if you try to leave “J would absolutely lose her mind. All bloody hell would break loose as her only enduring motivation for civility evaporated. It would be ugly again, and this time it would not get better. My daughter would be in the crossfire for the rest of her childhood and then some. This great (and so far successful) experiment of a functional, stable family would end, and be replaced with wretched misery.” To me, that appears like a victim stance.

 

Never did I imply that you enabled your abusive parents and I would never dream of it. What I was trying to say is that through your interactions while growing up you probably picked up a way of handling conflict that is unproductive. This is super hard to change and it would require years of professional help to gain awareness that you are even doing it. Usually, individual therapy makes one aware of the role they adopt (NOT causal role, I am referring to the way they interact) during conflict. It may be that you never got that far with your therapist at the time.

 

While I have certainly made my own mistakes (and talk about them openly in my post), I fail to see any mechanism that makes me responsible for my wife's actions, which I spent the better part of a decade trying to stop. It was an endeavor in which I was ultimately successful.

You are not responsible for your wife’s actions. You are only responsible for your own. You ARE part of the interaction with your wife. The end result is coming from both of you. Based on the interaction we had through this post, my opinion is that you do have a contribution in the way conflict plays out.

 

I wish I could, but as I said I also want very much to keep our lives sane and stable, so that's not an option. I'm not here trying to decide whether to leave her, I trying to figure out what to do in a situation where I don't love her but can't leave her.

Asking for help is the right thing to do. However, in my opinion you need professional help to help you unveil the alternatives that are currently hidden from your perception.

 

Please don't call my wife an ogre. Just because I list her misdeeds doesn't mean I think she's a monster. You're making that value judgment here, not me. She has a disability, one that she's trying very hard to overcome. While I am obviously familiar with her problems, I cannot see how you think I was comfortable with the abuse. Bringing it back is not an option for me, and I made that very clear.

I was not being literal when referring to your wife as an ogre. I made a parallel between your wife and an ogre. I also tried, albeit very unsuccessfully, to make a simile between the hardships/obstacles you are used to fighting with your whole life and an ogre. You may not have done this consciously, but in my opinion the description that you gave of your wife was awful and was (unconsciously) structured in such a way that most readers would be predisposed to hate her. You started off with all the foul things she did to you and then at the end you gave some reasons behind her behaviours (but still not enough background to explain why she came to be the way she is e.g. maybe she also comes from an abusive family background). Plus, you convey the message that your wife would abuse your daughter if you were to leave.

 

I acknowledged that I should have dropped her at the very start, but you completely ignore the only reason I stayed afterwards. A divorce would have given her custody of my daughter, and I would no longer be able to intervene to prevent my daughter's abuse. Why does this detail not matter to you?

I fully sympathise with your choice and I do not wish to engage in further discussion of what would have been best. Any solution had disadvantages and there were no easy answers. For example, “your kid spent the most formative years of her life watching her parents yell at each other just as yours had (and often trying to stop them, just as you had)”. I think that making speculations about the alternative at this point is useless but your choice was also based on a speculation that J would abuse her daughter even worse, and no one would be able to interfere, which can never be refuted or verified.

 

I'm not certain what you're implying, but like I said, I only realized I didn't love her anymore when my life became less stressed and I was able think more clearly

That's a very common thing — you don't solve all your life's problems while you're in crisis, you work on them when things have calmed down and you have time to consider them.

In my opinion the way you describe your feelings about your wife contains several contradictions. E.g. you are still sexually attracted to her yet you do not love her. You like and respect her yet you do not love her. You only realised that you did not love her when your life became less stressed. You say that it was because then you were able to think more clearly. I offered an alternative theory for you to consider (and by all means reject). You have been used to stressful interactions/conflict your whole life. It may be that part of your loss of feeling is due to not being used to this state of less stressful being with her. Your explanation is equally valid but then I would expect that there would also be total lack of sexual desire and any other positive feeling towards her.

 

J's attitude towards our kid is still overly harsh, which is a problem, but it doesn't rise to the level of abuse. This is principally because I am there to intervene, both directly and to remind J on a frequent basis of the need to exercise restraint.

With all due respect, that’s still not a healthy environment for a child. Read again what you wrote and reflect on the relationship dynamic that you describe (and unintentionally teaching your child); One parent being overly harsh and one having to intervene on a frequent basis...Is this healthy? It is probably far far better than what you experienced as a child but in my personal opinion it’s still not healthy.

 

Just because I have been abused and can talk about it doesn't mean I have a victim mentality. If you're so certain that I do, provide some some evidence and I'll address it.

I repeat, my comment regarding your victim mentality came from reading your description about your interactions with your wife, not your childhood abuse. Based on what you wrote, I as a reader cannot help but to be bemused on how you describe your wife as someone who has irrevocably taken your life hostage and whom you can never get rid of. If I try to think of alternatives, I would certainly try consulting with various professionals (legal, psychiatrists/psychologists, childhood psychologists, social workers etc) to explore my options regarding leaving this marriage prior to reaching your conclusion that nothing can be done.

 

J acknowledges fully that it was her doing these things, not me. And many others have recognized it too, including her own therapist. Nobody but you seems to think it was in any way my fault.

In my opinion, when it comes to your wife you did have a part in the way your interactions played out over the years. I am not a therapist (you talk about her therapist, what about yours? Did you have a therapist during this time, and what did they say?) but based on the way you interact when in conflict I have the impression that you have certain blind spots regarding how you may unintentionally and unproductively contribute to it.

 

Maybe you can tell me what on Earth you're talking about first, so I can know what to look for. Why would this strike you as a "Master/Slave" relationship? J has control issues, to be certain, but I was never her whipping boy. I did not allow her to dominate me at any point, though Lord knows she tried...

In my opinion, you have control issues as well but you go about it in a different (covert) way. If you really wish to understand what I was trying to convey (unsuccessfully) through my whole post you would need to read these links (I am not sure whether Enotalone will allow me to post them, but here goes):

MASTER/SLAVE, Two World Problem: The Essay

The Power of Passivity: The Essay

And if you find any value in it, explore the whole website. The terms master/slave are not my own and had you taken the time to google “Al Turtle and master/slave” and read the article that comes up on top you would have seen that they are not used in the sense you perceive.

 

Now I'm left with a different problem altogether, and it's one that in your obsession with victims and blame you seem to have overlooked entirely.

I'm stuck with J, but I don't love her anymore.

Care to say anything about that?

 

I think that in order to get unstuck, you have a long way ahead of you in terms of self-reflection and trying to gain more self-awareness regarding the way you come across/interact/operate during conflicts and potential conflicts. Asking for help is commendable and it’s half the battle. However, in my opinion you need professional help. What you are fighting is too complicated to tackle on your own. My understanding is that it takes time. It takes lots of self- help reading. It takes individual therapy. And it’s not a straight-forward process. I am no professional, but that is my opinion. I am not going to comment further in your post. Good luck.

[ThatwasThen]

But I don't love her. I haven't for many years and I'm quite sure I never will again. I'm pretty sure I don't want to love her again. And I don't like living with her either. I care about her a great deal, but were it not for our daughter I would have filed for divorce ages ago..

But I don't love her

If you're not going to leave her then the only thing to do is: Suck it up buttercup.

 

Frankly, your Opening post is probably the most overt case of codependency that I've ever read in this forum. If your five years of therapy wasn't with a counselor who is proficient in codependency then you never really got to the bottom of your issues.

 

Good luck going forth... all that's left for you to do is learn how to be comfortable in the bed you've made. (and perhaps get some family counselling so that your daughter doesn't perpetuate the dysfunctional pattern you've chosen to live in. Would you want her to be in your shoes?)

[Haeogruvb]

You've given me a lot to think about, Clio, and I appreciate your taking the time to do so. I'm glad that we were able to resolve our conflict quickly. Also, for what it's worth, I would have never guessed that English is not your native language — your English is better than a great many educated native speakers I've met.

 

I don't personally believe that one can't like and respect someone, or even be attracted to them, without also being in love with them. The implication may be there, but it's by no means a foregone conclusion. But your thoughts on my emotions being scrambled by this newfound peace are well-taken, and something I hadn't thought of before. This is a valuable perspective and I thank you for it.

 

While you still have not been terribly specific as how I enabled the abusive behavior from my wife, I do understand (and have articulated) that I had a role to play in the matter that was not always positive. I did the best I could with the tools I had at my disposal, and ultimately, I feel that I did a good job.

 

Probably the biggest thing that allowed that was that I did learn from therapy how to handle conflict more productively. This was the reason component that allowed me to win in every fight, even if it took me years to win the war.

 

I agree with you that this is still not a fully healthy environment for my daughter, but it's much better than any alternatives I can see so far. And I have every reason to believe that it will keep getting better as time goes on.

 

As to how I presented my wife, it was largely just a chronological account of the actual events. I focused on the worst of it to be sure, but the worst part was the main part for three-quarters of our relationship to date, and it's a big part of what I came here to discuss. It was not my intention to present J as a monster, and indeed I started my post out with a brief description of the good things in our lives, and ended it with many positive things to say about her. But the abuse still happened, and it's a long story that I felt I needed to tell.

 

You ask why I didn't speak about the origins of J's condition, and the answer is that I honestly don't know, and neither does she. Her family wasn't perfect, but it was functional and pretty normal. If I were to hazard a guess I'd say it's a congenital issue, but that's only a guess.

 

I think professional help is a good idea, and it is my intention seek it out. I wanted to start here, as an easier initial step.

 

Thank you again for your input, Clio. It was helpful.

[ThatwasThen]

Nobody's the master of me, no ogre and certainly no troll.

You are a prisoner of your upbringing wherein you think that you are your own master when in reality, you are a slave to your dysfunction... a man who makes excuses to stay in what is "safe" to you because it's all you've ever known. Now you and your partner are bringing up a daughter to only know what you know.

 

I am sad for her. Does she ever see the two of you show one another affection or is all she sees you not disrespecting one another as a rule.

[LaHermes]

Wig.

 

Of course one can like and respect someone and not be in love with them.

 

I like and respect my brothers, male cousins and a host of other male relations. But I am not IN love with them, and then of course why would I be living with them.

 

 

However, people can and do make all kinds of arrangements and pacts. It depends on what one is easy with.

 

You remarked in your op:

 

"Her situation with S deteriorating rapidly over her continuing infidelities, J finally admitted the truth to me one night, more than a month after we started sharing a bed."

(S being female).

 

Perhaps she would still prefer a same-sex relationship with someone.........

 

 

And:

 

 

[Haeogruvb]

"Sucking it up" is exactly what I've been doing for a decade, ThatwasThen. It's my baseline approach, and one that I expect to continue for a long time.

 

I had an excellent psychologist who was very knowledgable on the topic of codependency, including the fact that term and the idea it refers to both originate with support groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, rather than actual scientific study of human interaction. Nonetheless, I have studied the concept at length and am aware that J and I fit the criteria for it, however arbitrary those criteria may be. If you have any further suggestions on how to deal with our problems from that perspective I'm certainly willing to listen.

 

You may well be right that there's nothing I can do but find a way to be comfortable with my circumstances. If you have any ideas on how to go about that, I'm all ears.

 

Family counseling is an excellent idea, one that I've been considering for a while. I'm looking into it.

[Haeogruvb]

You are a prisoner of your upbringing wherein you think that you are your own master when in reality, you are a slave to your dysfunction...

 

Read more of what I wrote. The dysfunction ended two years ago. My family is functional, and so am I. The problem is only that I've fallen out of love. It could be argued that that is dysfunction in and of itself, but it's nowhere near on the level of where we were before.

 

A man who makes excuses to stay in what is "safe" to you because it's all you've ever known.

 

Safety is the opposite of "all I've ever known." I don't think it can be disputed I've lived a life of constant abuse and turmoil. Now I have safety, for the very first time, and so does my family. I can't just do away with that because of my own imperfect feelings.

 

I am sad for her. Does she ever see the two of you show one another affection or is all she sees you not disrespecting one another as a rule.

 

My wife and I are now very affectionate towards one another and hardly ever fight at all. I know that I've written a lot here, ThatwasThen, but if you want to comment I would appreciate your taking the time to read what's actually being said.

[Haeogruvb]

Of course one can like and respect someone and not be in love with them. ... people can and do make all kinds of arrangements and pacts. It depends on what one is easy with.

 

You seem to be suggesting that we can still find a way to make our marriage work even if she knows I don't love her any more. Is that your intent? If so I would appreciate hearing more of your thoughts on the matter.

 

Perhaps she would still prefer a same-sex relationship with someone.........

 

I don't get that impression, but maybe. All I can tell you with certainty is that things were almost as bad between J and S as they were with J and me.

 

 

I'm already very familiar. See my comments above.

[ThatwasThen]

"Sucking it up" is exactly what I've been doing for a decade, ThatwasThen. It's my baseline approach, and one that I expect to continue for a long time.

By "suck it up" I mean accept it and stop looking for solutions. It is what it is.

 

I had an excellent psychologist who was very knowledgable on the topic of codependency, including the fact that term and the idea it refers to both originate with support groups like Alcoholics Anonymous, rather than actual scientific study of human interaction. Nonetheless, I have studied the concept at length and am aware that J and I fit the criteria for it, however arbitrary those criteria may be. If you have any further suggestions on how to deal with our problems from that perspective I'm certainly willing to listen.

Continue counselling so that you learn to accept what you've sown and to do so happily without need to look for solutions as you're doing here. When you're happy with what you've chosen for yourself, that is when you needn't create thread such as this one. If you're familiar with and actually practice the tools one needs to overcome codependency then you know the "Serenity Prayer" which says that you can change only you, that you must have the courage to change the things you can and accept the things you cannot and the wisdom to know the difference. You've yet to accept what you've sown. Had you accepted, then this thread wouldn't exist.

 

You may well be right that there's nothing I can do but find a way to be comfortable with my circumstances. If you have any ideas on how to go about that, I'm all ears.

Acceptance. You've yet to accept. It seems you are setting boundaries (finally) and you're not letting her take HER issues out on you. Her resistance to you enforcing boundaries must not deter you from setting them. There are lots of links on codependency and the tools you need to help you to accept and be happy in your decision. Books by Melody Beattie would also (hopefully) set you on the right track.

 

Family counseling is an excellent idea, one that I've been considering for a while. I'm looking into it.

Good news. Will she agree? If she won't will you and your daughter proceed?

[LaHermes]

No, it is most certainly not my intent.

 

Read:

 

"I like and respect my brothers, male cousins and a host of other male relations. But I am not IN love with them, and then of course why would I be living with them.

 

"

 

You might as well be living with a sister or an aunt. Not a wife. Those are my thoughts. So, you have a pact made, probably with yourself. People enter into all kinds of arrangements, all the time, convenience often being ONE of the reasons. Still not a marriage though, even if the couple "got married".

 

Basically, you are prepared to live in this marriage, because you are afraid of the fallout from World War III, which you say will break out if you a) told her you didn't love her and b) you separated.

 

Does she, or doesn't she know you "don't love her any more".

 

How to go about being "comfortable" with your circumstances? Who knows.

[ThatwasThen]

Read more of what I wrote. The dysfunction ended two years ago.

No the dysfunction did not end two years ago. You're living in dysfunction. When you stay with someone you do not love out of fear, that is the definition of dysfunction.

 

My family is functional, and so am I.

Whatever you tell your self so you can sleep at night is on you.

 

The problem is only that I've fallen out of love. It could be argued that that is dysfunction in and of itself, but it's nowhere near on the level of where we were before.

That's like saying you're sort of pregnant.

 

 

 

Safety is the opposite of "all I've ever known." I don't think it can be disputed I've lived a life of constant abuse and turmoil. Now I have safety, for the very first time, and so does my family. I can't just do away with that because of my own imperfect feelings.

You do not understand codependency. It's clear by your response. It would do you well to delve into your own codependency issues further so that you learn how to be happy in what you've chosen for yourself.

 

 

 

My wife and I are now very affectionate towards one another and hardly ever fight at all.

Explain to me how you can show affection to someone you don't love. Is it an act? I can show general decency to someone I don't love but that's different then showing affection.

 

I know that I've written a lot here, ThatwasThen, but if you want to comment I would appreciate your taking the time to read what's actually being said.

I've read it. I just see things without the obstructed view of the forest whereas you're right in the midst of the trees.

 

P.S. In post #17 you attributed/quoted posts to me that I did not say.

[Haeogruvb]

No the dysfunction did not end two years ago. You're living in dysfunction. When you stay with someone you do not love out of fear, that is the definition of dysfunction.

 

No, dysfunction is a specific word with a specific meaning, and that is not it. The definition of dysfunction is abnormal or unhealthy interpersonal behavior or interaction within a group, most typically in reference to a family. It's about behavior — i.e. external actions — not internal decisions, thoughts and emotions. And believe you me, having been a part of both functional and dysfunctional households, the difference is like night and day.

 

A dysfunctional family is characterized by consistent hostile acts between the family members that have led to a breakdown in the healthy functioning of a group as a whole, typically involving frequent bickering, shouting, verbal and sometimes physical abuse. Our family certainly filled most of those criteria before, but it does not now and hasn't for years.

 

This is a struggle I've having in my own heart, and while I'm not foolish enough to claim that this can't have an impact on my family (of course it can), it does not currently create a dysfunctional environment for them. You've made it clear that you've already made up your mind about me so I know that you're not going to believe this, but the fact remains that I'm in control of my own behavior and have been for a long time. I've worked very hard for many years to create a stable and nurturing home for my wife and daughter both, and those efforts have paid off tremendously.

 

As I've outlined in great detail, we are now living good and happy lives. Healthy ones. My feelings toward my wife are a problem, and that is why I am here, but they do not create dysfunction.

 

My decision to stay is not about fear, it's about being a responsible adult.

 

Whatever you tell your self so you can sleep at night is on you.

 

I'm not sure if you think you're somehow helping by telling me this, but you should know that it's coming off as hostile and condescending.

 

That's like saying you're sort of pregnant.

 

That's an easy thing to say, but it isn't true. Pregnancy is an absolute condition. Human behavior is infinitely more complex. There is an enormous difference between a household that is beset by shouting and insults and one that is filled with laughter and affection.

 

You do not understand codependency. It's clear by your response. It would do you well to delve into your own codependency issues further so that you learn how to be happy in what you've chosen for yourself.

 

I don't know what it is about my response that would make you think that I don't understand codependency, because you don't bother to say. Codependency as a concept originated with Alcoholics Anonymous. Read Obsession: A History, by disability studies specialist Lennard Davis (2008). While the definition of codependency varies widely because it is not based on science (not that this necessarily invalidates it), it's generally regarded as a type of dysfunctional relationship wherein one person enables or supports another's addiction, irresponsibility, mental health problems, immaturity, or underachievement. The most common characteristic is an excessive reliance on another person to obtain approval and define one's own sense of identity.

 

My situation in the past may have qualified as codependency, but I don't believe it does now. I also don't see any direct statement from you as to why you think it does. You seem more interested in attacking me for my perceived ignorance about the concept, which is somewhat less than helpful.

 

Explain to me how you can show affection to someone you don't love. Is it an act?

 

I can see how this could be confusing, but being in love is not actually a prerequisite for affection. I'm affectionate towards my wife's cat, but that doesn't mean I'm in love with the cat.

 

I can show general decency to someone I don't love but that's different then showing affection.

 

True, but that's not what I'm doing.

 

I've read it. I just see things without the obstructed view of the forest whereas you're right in the midst of the trees.

 

You've continued to say things that make it obvious that you haven't read the whole thing, or at least not with any attention to the details to speak of. You still consistently speak of past problems as if they were ongoing (talking about my wife not respecting my boundaries is a recent example), when I have repeatedly made it clear from the start that they are not.

 

Given both that and your consistently condescending attitude I would like to ask you now to leave me alone.

 

P.S. In post #17 you attributed/quoted posts to me that I did not say.

 

Incorrect:

 

]

]

[ThatwasThen]

No, dysfunction is a specific word with a specific meaning, and that is not it. The definition of dysfunction is abnormal or unhealthy interpersonal behavior or interaction within a group, most typically in reference to a family. It's about behavior — i.e. external actions — not internal decisions, thoughts and emotions. And believe you me, having been a part of both functional and dysfunctional households, the difference is like night and day.

 

A dysfunctional family is characterized by consistent hostile acts between the family members that have led to a breakdown in the healthy functioning of a group as a whole, typically involving frequent bickering, shouting, verbal and sometimes physical abuse. Our family certainly filled most of those criteria before, but it does not now and hasn't for years.

 

This is a struggle I've having in my own heart, and while I'm not foolish enough to claim that this can't have an impact on my family (of course it can), it does not currently create a dysfunctional environment for them. You've made it clear that you've already made up your mind about me so I know that you're not going to believe this, but the fact remains that I'm in control of my own behavior and have been for a long time. I've worked very hard for many years to create a stable and nurturing home for my wife and daughter both, and those efforts have paid off tremendously.

 

As I've outlined in great detail, we are now living good and happy lives. Healthy ones. My feelings toward my wife are a problem, and that is why I am here, but they do not create dysfunction.

 

My decision to stay is not about fear, it's about being a responsible adult.

 

 

 

I'm not sure if you think you're somehow helping by telling me this, but you should know that it's coming off as hostile and condescending.

 

 

 

That's an easy thing to say, but it isn't true. Pregnancy is an absolute condition. Human behavior is infinitely more complex. There is an enormous difference between a household that is beset by shouting and insults and one that is filled with laughter and affection.

 

 

 

I don't know what it is about my response that would make you think that I don't understand codependency, because you don't bother to say. Codependency as a concept originated with Alcoholics Anonymous. Read Obsession: A History, by disability studies specialist Lennard Davis (2008). While the definition of codependency varies widely because it is not based on science (not that this necessarily invalidates it), it's generally regarded as a type of dysfunctional relationship wherein one person enables or supports another's addiction, irresponsibility, mental health problems, immaturity, or underachievement. The most common characteristic is an excessive reliance on another person to obtain approval and define one's own sense of identity.

 

My situation in the past may have qualified as codependency, but I don't believe it does now. I also don't see any direct statement from you as to why you think it does. You seem more interested in attacking me for my perceived ignorance about the concept, which is somewhat less than helpful.

 

 

 

I can see how this could be confusing, but being in love is not actually a prerequisite for affection. I'm affectionate towards my wife's cat, but that doesn't mean I'm in love with the cat.

 

 

 

True, but that's not what I'm doing.

 

 

 

You've continued to say things that make it obvious that you haven't read the whole thing, or at least not with any attention to the details to speak of. You're just throwing buzzwords at me like dysfunction and codependency based on little more than snap judgments. Given your consistently condescending attitude I would like to ask you now to leave me alone.

 

 

 

Incorrect:

 

]

]

Those are not the quotes that show up in the post I was referring to which at the time I thought was post 17 but turns out it was 18 (not sure if a post got deleted or not) Anyway: Hermes gave you the link, not I. Just clarifying that and leaving your thread as you have no desire to hear anything that goes against your beliefs of what is happening in your household.

 

You, of course, know more about that then me but from what I've read and the very fact that this thread exists proves that you are not happy in your decision no matter how Stepford of an existence you try to paint for us.

 

I do wish you well in maintaining the façade.

[Haeogruvb]

You might as well be living with a sister or an aunt. Not a wife. Those are my thoughts.

Mine too.

 

Does she, or doesn't she know you "don't love her any more".

 

She doesn't. Not sure why you're still confused on this subject. I feel that I've explained it clearly.

 

How to go about being "comfortable" with your circumstances? Who knows.

 

That's a fair comment.

[ThatwasThen]

One last thing: Here is a quote that actually comes from me and what I think applies more to your codependency. One does not have to be in an alcoholic situation to be codependent. Books by Melody Beatie would be a good read for you. Avoid "Codependent No More" as it deals with what you believe codependency is.

 

 

 

This portion, from what I've read rings true of you:

 

Codependents need help in creating healthy relationships due to faulty learning about the value of their own needs and feelings.

 

Codependency is a dysfunction that causes individuals to lose themselves in relationships. Codependents ignore their feelings, needs, and problems while obsessing on the feelings, needs and problems of others. Codependency is a dysfunction that causes individuals to lose themselves in relationships. the feelings, needs, and problems of others. They possess an exaggerated sense of responsibility for others and struggle with maintaining healthy boundaries. Thus, they experience relationships as stressful and often suffer from anxiety, depression, guilt, and resentment.